Better Educated People Believe Two Things:

1- We should not have gotten involved in a war in Iraq.

2- Now that we are there we have no choice but to see it through to the end.

Heard on NPR, but can't remember the source for the statement.

?

That would be hyperbole and rhetoric.

Serious question. What does it mean.

i.e. whatever endstate we end up with that will allow us to pull out having fullfilled our obligations under International Law.

...ones mind up so wide that the contents fall out.

However if one stated that we had a responsiblity to withdraw in an orderly fashion, with an International ME dominated force taking our place, and under UN observation I might just agree. OTH if nobody wants to come in an clean up our shit then quite frankly I see very few options other than letting the Iraqis settle out their own fate.

It's the execution of that idea that is hard. The devil being in the details and all that.

Another option is a prolonged occupation. Another would be killing every man, woman, and child in Iraq. Neither is an option I would like to see.

An International ME force really isn't a good option other though. It has all the issue and problems that are endemic to the region. Ethnic issues, religious...et. al.

If Isreal is any example we could be there for 50 years and still have no end in sight.

"Seeing it through to the end" is just plain madness. There is no end until we are gone and the Iraqi people can run their own country their own way.

...guarantees chaos and and a steadily worsening situation. This is opposed to the chance, however slight, that things might stabilize with some "body" there to influence and guide the process.

Until we have something to pass it over to we're stuck. This would be what the better educated people understand.

I'm talking about the people on the ground in Iraq

maybe the better educated people should read the second subject posted here

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/

I think that's waht got us buried in the mess to begin with.

Lemming # 2...go for it, we're already committed :eyes:

You didn't seem to say anything there.

Our "head lemming" is determined to take us all over the cliff with him..

That's why he raced in so fast..He knew that once we were "in", there would be only one course to follow.. He did not care that others would be dragged along with him..

Like the monkey with his fist around the fruit inside the jar.. He cannot get his hand out of the jar until he loosens his grip on the fruit.. If he loosens his grip to get his hand out, he loses the fruit..

It's a lose-lose ..no matter what he does now..

So all we can do at this stage is try to make the best of this, and come out with as much of our dignity and honor intact as we can. We need to come out having acepted our obligations under IL, and having done the best we could for the Iraqi people while trying to leave the world as safe as we can. We are not going to make the situation perfect, and we aren't going to make the world safer, or even as safe, as it was before the invasion.

We're fucked. There is no changing that. The only thing we can do now is try to make sure someone uses a little lube in the process.

Better educated? Better than what? Do they mean "better informed," or simply those with more than a set level of education? Does a baccalaureate make you question the war, but a doctorate puts you squarely in the camp against it? How does this explain stupid educated people, like Dr. Condoleeza Rice?

I work and associate with an incredibly diverse set of people each week, most of whom hold post-graduate degrees, and I'd be hard-pressed to pigeonhole their beliefs on the issues within our respective fields, let alone the complex issues of politics and war.

Unfortunately I don't have the source used for the statement, as I mentioned earlier.

Studies have shown, and I have none available, that the more highly educated you are, the more likely you are to have a liberal political slant. They don't say that all highly educated people are liberal and all modestly educated people are conservative. Dr. Rice is easily explained. She's not one of those in the more likely group.

There was also a study out last year that showed a statistically significant difference in the correlation to a man's height and his political outlook. Taller men were more likely to be Democrats/Independents while shorter men...... Of course that does not explain Cal Thomas, a 6'7" conservative jerk.

There are so many reasons for animosity and mistrust. IF Bush* were willing to just hand it over to the UN members, they could be there in a few weeks or months. Bush will NOT do that. Kerry will (I hope). The other members of the UN have a much better chance of actually rebuildng Iraq. After all, they didn't attack them.

Or for that matter, how about the Arab League? Can't they, and shouldn't they, come up with an intervention plan?

But nobody can do anything as long as Shrubby holds the "big stick" of the teenagers of the US military.

i think most would vote the US leave tomorrow.

Now, I feel differently. Certainly no one would suggest that war criminals see their crimes through to the end.

It isn't limited to the prison incident alone. That combined with the fact that our soldiers have been and currently are targeting civilians based on poor intelligence has squandered any good that may have come out of deposing Saddam.

There was a Sac Bee story today by a marine who left the area detailing the manner in which civilians are shot at rather randomly at check points.

Combine that with the fact that in January, Sadr had no real following and now the majority of the population sympathizes with him, you have a conflict that will not be eased nor won by us.

Did you ever stop and consider that for the VERY FIRST TIME in the history of America going to war, there are DELIBERATELY no civilian death counts? It could be 10,000...it could be 50,000.

It isn't about "cutting and running"..it's about leaving before we spoil the fucking place with so much depleted uranium and "good will" that we escalate the number of deaths likely to occur.

At this time, I truly believe the Iraqi people want freedom. We won't be providing it for them anytime soon. The only honorable thing to do is leave, cancel all contracts with American war profiteers, let the UN move in or any other group with a shred of credibility left in the domain of human rights...and mail the checks to clean up the damage.

Of course not.

It isn't about "cutting and running"..it's about leaving before we spoil the fucking place with so much depleted uranium and "good will" that we escalate the number of deaths likely to occur

Too late. That has already happened.

I disagree with #2

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6302737249/002-0048185-9531210?v=glance#product-details
(snip)
The War Is Won But Peace Is Lost, March 25, 2004
Reviewer: Franz L Kessler (see more about me) from Houston, TX, USA
I recommend this movie, given its outstanding quality, but also because of its actual message: a war is won militarily in an Arab country, but with no law in place and broken dignity peace is lost on the political front. This movie is important for America! It stresses the need for integrity, and lawfulness whilst occupying foreign lands.

The movie contains several good perspectives on how to act and not to act in/with 'Arabic' countries. The Algeria war developed from general unease in the early 50ties. Algeria was part of France, yet local Algerians were not recognized as French citizens. On top of this came the question of landownership, as the arable land was controlled by European immigrants. Originally, the liberation movement started as a civil rights movement, not really different from the struggle of American Blacks during the sixties. Continued suppression of these, in my eyes, legitimate demands led to exacerbation and a deep division in the country, and incompatible futures arose in the minds of the people.

The movie is Italian-made, and started as a documentary during the Algeria war. However, the project couldn't be completed at that time. Two, three years after the war the film was completed in Algiers - as a re-enacted documentary, if you want. It comes very close to a true documentary film, and many critics in Europe rank Pontecorvo's as the best movie of its kind
(snip)

Oh well. Can't have everything.

How does pulling out right this instant fix anything? Give me a better answer and I'll conceed the point. Unfortunately, while staying engaged is a horrid option, pulling out is no option at all.

Only a fool or overt criminal thug would have done what George W. Bush did. I also contend he is the latter.

The rule I stand by and seen proved correct many times is this:
Simple fact, the the more you stir sh*t, the more it stinks

Sure you can have that Nixonian precept of Peace with dignity but what will that prove? The only thing that continuing this insanity is going to help is George W. Bush. Just like the Nixon (a proved liar many times) we are sucked into this little game of the Imperial Presidency. What comes out his mouth is law (according to many). I disagree with that premise. What he says and does has no more legal authority than is vested into the office. The whole action from the get go was illegal.

Really George W. Bush is a criminal in many ways, but no one is allowed arrest him until he is removed from office (by US Constitutional law)


http://www.impeach-bush-now.org/
(snip)
About the Campaign

The National Campaign to Impeach George W. Bush has focused on U.S. unilateral aggression toward Iraq, violations of Constitutional and International Law and breaches of the United Nations Charter. Under U.S. Law, George W. Bush has exceeded the powers of the Office of President. He has conspired and committed war crimes in violation of the Hague and Geneva Conventions.

The current Resolution for Impeachment contains six articles accusing President George W. Bush of conspiring to use weapons of mass destruction, bribing and bullying foreign heads of state, acting without Congressional consent, acting contrary to the U.N. Charter (of which the United States is a signatory), and of enacting laws which establish an American police state thereby violating the Bill of Rights.
(snip)

i won't trade another american life for an iraqi's until there is a massive demonstration that americans support the idea of being the world's policeman.

and if we do it in iraq there is a whole host of places we had better start dropping bombs and the 82nd airborne into.

its only partially what we say we are doing in iraq, for if true, allowing a nation to work out its democracy is not a bad foreign policy goal, but we are not applying the same set of conditions on other countries as well. if we want to save the world for democracy there are a lot of other places to start first before iraq, but if we start our own world-wide democacy jihad, i'm getting off the bus.

Further, I can predict that Bush will escalate our military aggression, not lessen it, as he attempts to defend a tainted, selected authority, and later, a tainted election. I just don't trust the lying bastard to keep his word on anything outside of his stated commitments to militarism. There is an ocean of time before our candidate assumes office. There is much that Bush can effect negatively in that time to cause our end in Iraq to resemble or rival the disaster that he has orchestrated so far.