Is gasoline too expensive in the United States?

so it takes to much of it to get from place to place. Note that I live in Wyoming where things are VERY far apart.

as a Montanan, but looking long-range, let's say 50 years forward, I think it is essential that we begin the effort to find alternatives to petroleum.

Where I live, I have to have a truck, but I also have a small car I use 98% of the time. (Assuming I can keep them both running at once, lol)

Is Uncle Dick cutting his home state a better deal like Texas is getting?

Dickie is NOT a Wyoming native. His comings and goings here in JH are met with considerable dismay as he lands his Blackhawks in the bird sanctuary so that he won't risk scarring the fairway on the golf course where his mansion is located.

As for prices - not especially. Regular around 2.10, supreme about 2.25.

European countries are smaller.

European countries seem to have better public transport systems.

Europeans tax more on their gas. However, they also put some thought into their transport industry.

The US relies on low-cost unfettered expansion. Oops. Long term road maintenance costs were one thing, but did anybody think at one point that oil was not a freely reoccurring resource?

Ouch.

Some day is the not to far future, the oil is going to start to run out for good. China is ramping up their use of oil,, compeating with us, the US. We, the US can only supply a little less than half of the oil we use. Tapping into the reserves, high mileage cars, etc, is only covering up the real problem. Foreign dependence on a diminishing energy source.

What NEEDS to be done is to take all that money we are wasting killing people around the world and use it, with co-operation of other countries to develop other safe clean energy sources.

You consume 2.4 more energy per year than an European

No comment

in comparing mass-transit systems, the US is SO damn backwards....

they had an articulated strategy to buy up passenger service and close it down. leaving everyone to their cars.

GMC made it SO easy for cities to ditch their quaint (paid for)streetcars and trolleys in favour of clean (what's cleaner than elecric traction?) efficient MODERN Diesel motor coaches....

Because the increased demand (and therefore the high price) is the result of idiot 10-15mpg SUV/Pickup drivers who waste energy just so they can feel like bad-asses on the road. People who make an effort to save energy by driving efficient cars and OTR truck drivers are getting screwed.

so I voted other. We do have cheaper gas than other countries but those other countries have better alternatives. I would gladly see more expensive gas if I also had the public transportation systems that those places have.

Your consumption of energy is also ours

I will admit I do consume a fairly decent amount but you had no way of knowing that for sure, and when I lived in a city I actually didn't have a car.

I'm French and for me :

you = American

ours = European issue


In Paris, it's now very fashionable to be not car owner.

In any case even in our fairly large cities like Cleveland owning a car is much more convenient than using public transportation. Trips which take 20 minutes by car can take close to an hour by public transportation.

Check out the European cars. They don't drive SUV's, Hummers, and dressed out 4X4's. The cars sold locally in those countries are much smaller than what we have here.

We've been spoiled, and it's going to be a very difficult retraining process.

when we could have been developing alternate energy, specifically clean, renewable energy. But, of course, in 1980 Reagan got rid of those alternative energy programs that were starting, and as we all know, it's been a struggle just to keep car and truck mileages from going down under Repukes.

We wasted 30 years. And there will be no rebounding from the next crisis (Peak Oil) .

as long as people are driving around in 3 ton vehicles that get 12 miles per gallon. :crazy:

That's like saying, it's hard to say housing is too expensive as long as people are living in mansions.

Buy a vehicle that gets 24 miles per gallon and you cut your fuel cost in half. Buy a hybrid and cut your costs by 75%.

.... High gas prices won't simply make freepers sell their Hummers and force the soccer moms to trade their Expeditions in for a Prius. They will raise the price of food, the price of shipping, the price of public transporation, the price of manufacturing anything remotely connected to petroleum (i.e. plastic, which is in damn near everything)

And who do all of these costs get passed along to?

The ones who drove the Hummers in the first place? Fuck no. They got tax write offs. To accompany the three "refunds" Junior gave them on taxes they never paid in the first place.

No, the costs are paid by those who can least afford it. And those costs could go even higher if more jobs are lost as a result.

So no gas price raises out of fucking vanity even if the "long range goals" are honorable. The costs are too high.

Better idea is to get the oil industry out of Washington DC and keep them out. Then prosecute the living shit out of these monopolisitc price fixing fascist shitheads until gas is again priced realistically. If the CEO's don't like it, fuck em. But no real alternative energy progress can take place until these greedy sons of bitches' influence over the government is destroyed.

My aunt and uncle owned a small trucking business of about 50 trucks. The increased price of diesel made them go under.

Can someone with actual knowledge of the subject matter explain that?

and use the proceeds, in part, to build great public transportation systems.

That's a whole lot more than 50 cents a gallon and it's a lot of money that could go towards developing petroleum alternatives as well as public transit.

In some EU countries the taxes are over $3.00 a gallon. I think some of that goes to general revenue as well as public transport.

This % is about the same in all European countries.

like I did last year. They are taxed A LOT but they RECEIVE A LOT FOR IT. I'd gladly pay what they pay if we would get the social backing they do.

and since it will last me the rest of my life I made sure it was a darn good one.

Then there was the cleanings and a couple of caps replaced.

Or are we going to focus on subsidies to oil companies and a defense policy funded by our federal taxes and social security investments that largely goes to protect or help oil companies prosper around the globe? If so, then the cost is probably much closer to 6 or 7 dollars a gallon than two.

Yes, there are a lot of people driving big, gas guzzling trucks and SUVs, but they're not the ones who are getting hurt the most by high gas prices.

If you can afford to drive $40,000 vehicle, you can afford to pay extra to fill the gas tank. Do you really think someone driving an H2 is feeling the pinch of increased gas prices?

The people who hurt the most from a spike in gas prices are the poor and working class people who have to commute 30 miles to work each way, every day.

that you could realize that working class people who have to commute to work everyday are the ones hurt by high gas prices, you could even be one of those people, and still think gas is a bargain in the US compared to Europe?

I certainly am 'feeling the pinch' of increased gas prices, but I still think gas should be taxed higher than it is.

If you think that gas should cost more than it currently does.

I am going to be taxed. The conventional wisdom is that taxes and death are the only things that are unavoidable. So the question is just, where will the taxes be collected. Considering the dwindling and indisputibly finite supply of oil, the hidden environmental costs, and the strategic cost to the United States of being dependent on a precarious overseas supply line for a vital resource, I think gasoline is an item that is undertaxed.

That the working class cannot afford to drive to work and still pay all of their other costs of living, then what is the benefit?

Mass transit systems take years to build. What is to be done in the mean time if gasoline gets priced out of the range of ordinary people?

"gasoline gets priced out of the range of ordinary people"

if you want to pretend that saying 'gas is undertaxed' means wanting to 'price gas out of the range of ordinary people' it is going to be hard to have a productive conversation. :eyes:

But I'll try and rephrase it more to your liking. If you increase the cost of gasoline by increasing taxes on it, you are creating a legitimate economic hardship for those who can least afford it.

The notion of investing tax revenues into better public transportation is a fine idea, but as I stated before, mass transit systems take years to build. What would you propose to alleviate the burden that increased fuel taxes would put on the poorest members of society?

I would attempt to offset that with an aggressively progressive income tax. But I don't deny that gasoline taxes are regressive or that the transition from our current economy to an post-petroleum economy will be hardest on the poorest members of society. I'm one of the poorest members of society - I guess you could say I'm in the 'debtor class' or the 'paycheck to paycheck class' - but I'm nowhere near upper middle class - and I definitely feel the gas price pinch because I live in the country, 35 miles from the nearest supermarket.

I respect the point you raised about the regressive nature of high gasoline prices ... but I don't agree with the conclusion you reached ...

point one: given the sorry state of mass transit in this country, driving to and from work for many is a necessity ... it shouldn't be that way but it is ... the solution to unaffordable gas prices is some sort of subsidy for the poor ... for example, we could allow a 25% (or whatever) tax credit (not a deduction) for gasoline expenses up to some amount of income ... the idea here is to recognize, as you did, the inequity of high gas prices ...

point two (the bigger picture): we cannot continue to drive fossil fuel vehicles at the rate we currently do ... this point is just not negotiable ... we are destroying our atmosphere ... I heard something on the radio today that said the anticipated temperature increase from global warming (2 degrees centigrade over the next 50 years) will put 15 - 37% of species on the earth at risk of extinction ... while I would be perfectly willing to agree to some type of rationing (read: rational) system, this is not likely to happen in our dysfunctional capitalistic country ...

nor, as the world runs out of oil will we be able to continue getting cheap gasoline ... it's unfortunate that our lobby-laden government is not predisposed to orderly transitions ... but they're not ... and so, i'm all for letting the prices go up endlessly, subsidizing the poor, and putting an end to the environmental destruction our fossil fuel addiction is causing us ... and, btw, if energy companies are realizing windfall profits from the price increases, I'd put everyone one of them in jail for life ...

It depends on how much taxes are added to it.

It depends on how much misery the petroleum industry is causing in the world

It depends on how much and who is making a profit off of it.

It depends on whether the price encourages alternative fuels.


I would not mind paying higher prices if there was a push to do away with fossil fuels altogether.

I hope we could that the energy sources we have in abundance like solar, wind, hydrogen and oxygen would be used to power our lives. To think that we are paying higher prices only to make oil company owners wealthier sucks.

The just voted to close down a refinery here in Bakersfield last week!

SUV pilots don't give a rat's ass if gas is a dime more this week than it was last week, hell, they pay a month in SUV lease what I used to pay on my MORTGAGE...

"He is Hummer. Gasoline prices are like the buzzing of FLIES to him!"

Gasoline is more expensive in Europe. they also have cars that are smaller, services that are closer (I'll bet BonjourUSA doesn't have to go 15 miles to go gocery shopping) and paychecks that are bigger.

Plus that great Euro-Rail system I was hinting at earlier.

We have trains, but they're a joke because that's the way the railroads want them to be. I mean, come on now, it's more important for 12,500,000 gallons of corn syrup to get to where it's going on Saturday night than it is for 35 people to? The passenger train has to take the siding to let the scrap iron train heading for Gary go by?

"The American Love Affair with the Automobile" is a stupid fucking legend, just like Cowboys and Pilgrims eating turkey with Squanto, but it's so ingrained into our collective psyche that it will NEVER be dislodged.

Passenger trains were a losing business after the US Postal subsidy went away. Now we have state and local municipal transit systems and Amtrak.

Just about the only two places were rail fares pay for the trains is between New York and Washington and between San Diego and Los Angeles. All others are subsidized by taxes.

And the rule nowadays (at least here in the midwest, far from that profitable "Northeast Corridor") is that the Varnish gets hind tit. Put the Varnish in the Hole for the slow drag that MAY be running an hour late itself. Fuck it, it's only Amtrak, who gives a damn about those losers? If they were important, they'd be flying, so let 'em wait while we move this string of 105 MT's...

and free health care it would be a bargain. You are comparing apples to oranges.

If I want to use public transit to get to work from my home in Chicago to north suburban Evanston, here's what I would have to do:

Take a bus 4 miles east, taking at least 30 minutes. Then, take the L north to Evanston, 15-20 minute ride. There are other options to get to a closer L stop (and I've tried them) and change to head back north, but it's just as time consuming.

So there, "conservatively" I'd spend an extra hour & 20 minutes taking mass transit. Takes me 15 minutes each way to drive to & from.

I'm not against mass transit - it just doesn't always make sense.

And, I live where I do because of the wonderful neighborhood we've found, and the convenience to the highways. I hope I don't have to apologize for that, because I won't.

so that the equivalent cost of the gasoline distillate is about $1.50-$2.00 per liter (not gallon). We need to take that money and invest in mass transit.

But, gasoline is not the only issue...diesel trucks, locomotives, and ships need to be hit, as well. This will spur the expansion of electrified railways.

But, petroleum needs to be taxed heavily...not just its various distillates. The cost of plastics, pesticides and solvents need to increase massively, as well (most are petro-chemicals). We need alternatives that do not harm the planet through their very use.

The only way to force change upon these people is to make it economically mandatory to change.

Will it hurt, short-term? Yes it will. And we can help people who are actually hurt by this. Will it help long term? Absolutely.

I realize that most countries pay more, but the price increase has beeen way too fast for the millions of working poor who only budgeted for $1.45 gas, and now it's $2.00 +.


The gov't should be releasing some of the reserves to ease the shock. Eventually the prices will be MUCH higher as supplies dwindle, but there's no reason to have these fluctuations...

In 1974, The energy price increased to 30 to 40% in some days and it went on to raise during several years. The car manufacturers have had to make better products with better engines, we have had to insulate our houses and buildings (with state help)....

Certainely, we would have prefer to live with free consumption of energy because we spent very hard times, but we have no regret now.

and Ruan (spelling?) last year. We hope to return next year. I loved France and the French people. I saw nothing justifying the reputation the French have here as being not so friendly. They even tolerated my sorry high school French. We really wanted to go back this year, but no money!

and use our very expensive gas :-)

Rouen

An "Amen" to several previous posts.

I might feel different if oil companies weren't posting record profits.

And of course these oil prices have an effect on many aspects of the the economy.

And I agree,to the Hummer/Expedition crowd these rates are a non-issue

Just my $.02



edited for sp(can U say spellcheck)

Their gas prices are high due to taxes, which go back into their societies to provide quality schools and a decent safety net, among other things.

When our gas prices skyrocket, the money goes into the pockets of the oil companies, as is happening right now.

And, gas taxes are highly regressive, and the poor are least likely to be able to afford to replace their old junkers with something newer and more fuel efficient, so raising gas taxes would give the poor a double hit.

Considering their profit margins (record this year) and the political power they're able to buy with it, I'd say gas costs too much.

If it cost more to pump it, or if a lot of that price was from taxes which were paying for good schools and research into clean fuels, I wouldn't complain at all.

But most of that price is profit and political power you're paying for. And the political power is buying the ability to monopoly price and kill competition to oil.

When you consider that we all need to be conserving gas just for the sake of the environment if nothing else, then no I don't think the price is too high. It's just that the money is going to the corporate honchos and not helping the environment, energy conservation research etc.

I think for folks on minimum wage or slightly above who must drive to work each day, yes the price is too high. Up over $2.00 per gallon is making serious inroads in an already small income.

I know gas is higher in Europe but I believe that proportionally it would work out to be the same as ours. The euro is stronger than the dollar and Europeans generally don't have to drive the long distances just to get to work that many of us have to do.

and everywhere else than here in the US. The problem i have is that in Europe, if you choose to not use your car, you can rely on mass public transportation to get around. that is not an option in most places in the us. if we had that option, i wouldn't complain so much about gas. the way our cities are structured, we are helplessly dependent on our gas guzzlers.

That's why they have little cars (some of them smaller than anything I've seen in the States) and superb public transit and intercity rail.

the administration should be doing something about this. Bush should get out of bed with the saudis and start watching out for the american families who are trying to survive putting $60 a week in the tank. Kerry wouldn't do this to us, he'd fight every day to make sure the price of gas stays low.

In France, for instance :

1.09 euro/liter (average) = 4.12 euro/gallon = $4.94/gallon

If gasoline was taxed 80% like in Europe, along with the awesome public transit, I wouldn't give a rat's ass what the price was. But since Big Oil doesn't seem to be hurting any at the moment, record profits, I do believe? WTF? And Murka can't seem to get mass transit right except in a few choice areas.

Makes me ticked even in my own community where there is b!tching over mass rail. Horse power is probably next....

I'd pay 5-6 bucks a gallon -- or more -- and be happy about it.

Setting aside moral issues and looking at it from a
purely dollars and cents standpoint:

I figure I'm going to be working another 30 years. I
tank up once a week. A $4 delta in price per gallon
* 12 gallons * 52 weeks * 30 years is about $75k.

I'd pay $75k in a heartbeat to keep my stepson out of
a war. Wouldn't you?

J.

it would cripple the economy in a heartbeat. We are the most economically powerful entity in the history of the planet. War is unnecessary to keep prices down, we should use our economic power rather than our military power.

That way no one dies and prices are low.