Why do Dems / Kerry prefer paperless touch screens to punch cards?

What's the deal here? This position, or perception (I've heard that Kerry will not support any action against paperless touch screen voting if it takes place in a punch card county) is really hurting the clean voting movement.

What do you know about it?
I'd be delighted to talk to any member of the Kerry campaign.
If this position is factual, I will publicize it, sorry.
If this is a perception, and the Kerry people are being misrepresented, I'll get out there and clear it up.

What gives with this?

Bev Harris

Yes, thank you for taking steps to get to the bottom of this. The man has a lot on his plate, but that is what assistants are for. His campaign needs to get straightened out on this and HE needs to do the right thing and make a statement. He and his campaign need to realize this is not tinfoil hat stuff any more (if it ever was).

lose 6 percent of their votes on punch cards.

This does not jive with the M.I.T./CalTech study, which indicated that punch cards lost 4.something percent, touch-screens lost 5.7 percent, and optical scan 3.something percent (sorry, gave all my books away today and can't locate the exact figures.)

Now, the above numbers are before misprogramming and fraud are considered. Because touch-screens are vastly more complex, the likelihood of misprogramming is much, much higher. And because paperless touch screens can't be audited, the potential for fraud is higher.

Bev

I'll look it up.

http://www.vote.caltech.edu/Reports/index.html

Here's from the summary. Punch cards have a high number of "residual votes" (so does electronic). But keep in mind DUers (Bev knows this) that residual votes is not the only (or even most important) measure of voting technology.

Executive Summary
Residual Votes Attributable to Technology
An Assessment of the Reliability of Existing Voting Equipment
The Caltech/MIT Voting Technology Project
Version 2: March 30, 2001
This report examines the use of voting equipment and the incidence of spoiled and
unmarked ballots associated with that equipment. We call the rate of spoiled and
unmarked ballots the residual vote rate. The residual vote rate is not a pure measure of
voter error. If voting technologies are not producing voter mistakes or confusion, the
residual vote rate should be unrelated to equipment. The study covers election results
from over 2700 counties and municipalities in the 1988, 1992, 1996, and 2000
presidential elections.
· The United States uses five general types of election technologies: hand-counted
paper ballots, lever machines, punch cards, optically scanned paper ballots, and
electronic machines (called direct recording electronics). There are variations
within each of these types of technology; this investigation focuses on the
performance of the five broad types of voting technology.
· Over the last two decades, election administrators have increasingly abandoned
lever machines and hand-counted paper ballots in favor of electronic machines
and optically scanned paper ballots.
· Approximately 2 percent of all presidential ballots are spoiled or unmarked
(residual votes).
· The incidence of residual votes is highest for voters in counties using punch cards
and electronic machines and is lowest for voters in counties using lever machines,
optically scanned paper ballots, and hand-counted paper ballots.
· The same pattern holds once we statistically control for all features of individual
counties (including county literacy rates and income), the year of the election,
total turnout, shifts in technology, and other candidates on the ballot.
· Optically scanned ballots are a viable alternative to older technologies. We see
room for improvement with electronic machines, especially the newer touch
screen technologies.
· We find the performance of punch cards alarming: punch cards are an established
technology and the residual vote rate of this technology is nearly double that of
alternatives.

http://www.rules.senate.gov/hearings/2001/031401knack.htm

Following the last Presidential election, a widespread perception emerged that punch card voting equipment was more prevalent in counties heavily populated by minorities and poorer persons. Our study contradicts this belief. We combined county-level demographic data for the mid-1990s with information from Election Data Services on voting equipment used by the counties in the 1998 election. Our results showed there is little support for the view that resource constraints cause poorer counties with large minority populations to retain antiquated or inferior voting equipment.

Among our specific findings:

1. Nationally, racial differences in punch card use are negligible: 31.9% of whites and 31.4% of African Americans lived in counties using this voting technology. Controlling for county size and other variables, counties with larger percentages of African Americans actually have a significantly lower probability of using punch cards.

2. African Americans are more likely than whites to live in counties using electronic voting or lever machines, the two types of equipment in which "overvoting" is impossible if the equipment is programmed correctly.

3. Hispanics are more likely to live in punch card counties than blacks or whites, but this disparity is attributable entirely to the use of punch card voting in Los Angeles County. In most states, whites are actually more likely than Hispanics to live in punch card counties.

4. Based on presidential voting patterns in 1996, Democratic and Republican voters were equally likely to live in punch card counties, for the U.S. overall.

5. Because we elect Presidents by the electoral vote and not the popular vote, it's also relevant to make these comparisons on a state-by-state basis. It turns out that in the majority of states where some counties use punch cards and others do not, whites, the non-poor and Republican voters who are more likely to reside in punch card counties than African Americans, the poor and Democratic voters. Unfortunately for Vice-President Gore, Florida happened to be one of the exceptions to this pattern.

(Also not well reported on at the time, were the 16,022 negative votes from Gore via the card from the optical scan system. Maybe a shell game going on, look at the chads and not at the other systems?)

6. Public resources don't seem to matter much. Counties with punch card systems actually tend to have higher incomes, higher tax revenues, and larger populations than do counties with more modern voting equipment. In counties using electronic voting systems--the most expensive type--per capita incomes and property tax revenues are actually lower than in counties using punch card or any other voting technology. Florida is actually one of the best examples of these patterns: the largest and richest counties tend to use punch-card equipment. The Washington Post's claim of November 11 that it is "mainly affluent counties that have switched" to newer technology turns out to be dead wrong.

(OK, if the less affluent tend to vote democratic, yet have the newer electronic machines....)

-snip-

A recent Cal Tech/MIT study has exposed as false another popular belief. It found that the electronic systems often promoted as the high-tech solution to chad problems actually generate the same rate of invalid presidential votes as Votomatic-style punch card equipment.

(Actually, they have it right on by specifying the Votomatic. The Datamark punch cards perform BETTER than touch screens consistently)

Evidence from studies such as these has obvious implications for some of the proposed solutions to problems associated with punch card voting. Our study shows that providing financial assistance to replace punch card technology would not be subsidizing the poorest counties--in most states, including Florida, it would subsidize the richer counties. And replacing punch card technology with expensive electronic systems might not reduce the number of invalidated presidential votes. In fact, it would probably increase it in the short run, because we don't understand yet why electronic systems generate a high rate of invalid votes, so we don't know what to do about it. On the other hand, just about everybody has become well informed about exactly what can go wrong with punch card technology. Next time around, anyone still using punch cards will probably take extra care to insert the card into the slot correctly, punch their selections forcefully, and tear off any hanging chad before turning in the ballot. Poll workers likely will check the vote recorders periodically for chad build up. The error rate for punch card voting will probably fall far below the rates prevailing in recent years for punch cards and electronic systems.


(What we learned recently from a county is they would keep punch cards if they could. There are two problems doing that- this State's HAVA plan demands it, although HAVA itself does not; and the problems in getting parts and replacements for the equipment. If the machines are cleaned and the populace educated, they work pretty well as long as you have good election offials. What we learned is that punch cards count faster, something like 1800 per hour to 200 for optical scan and that workers can get a pretty good idea in scanning the ballots as to who should be winning- kind of a cross check for the computers version of the tally. There seem to be more problems with misalignment, scrunched ballots, and getting the ballot fed into the counting machine properly with optical scan. Just another viewpoint on punch cards)

The paperless voting is most popular, insofar as I can tell, in places where Republicans dominate, and where they can best steal elections, such as Florida and Georgia.

Most Dems I know oppose it. Don't know about the Kerry campaign myself, but if they support it, that's one more reason to be utterly disgusted with Kerry and his cluelessness.

John Kerry criticized paperless voting in a speech at the Florida Democratic Convention several months ago.

But he isn't a cosponsor of "The Voter Confidence Act" to require elecronic voting machines to print paper ballots.

Call Kerry's Senate office.

Dial 1-800-839-5276 (Capital Switchboard) and ask to be transferred to the John Kerry's office.

Then you could say, "I'd like to leave a message for the Senator to please cosponsor "The Voter Confidence Act," bill number S. 1980, to improve the accuracy of our elections."

doesn't want to make it look like he has any more of a vested interest in it than anyone else. appearence of impropriety etc...

If Kerry does nothing, there is no way "The Voter Confidence Act" will pass the Senate.

The only way it can pass the Senate is if Kerry gets all the Democrats to sign on and a few moderate Republicans.

I have a suit filed right now against the Secretarry of State of Washington...I don't want my votes counted on the damend things.

If there are a lot of voters, the tray for capturing chads can actually fill up and voter will not be able to punch cleanly through the card. That happened in Florida in 2000. Even worse is that in some communities, the election workers did not bother to empty the chad tray before the voting (!). If the chad tray is full, voters will produce hanging chads and "dimpled chads".

Another problem with punch card voting is that it is confusing and hard to use. The "butterfly ballot" from Florida 2000 was especially bad, but even normal ballot designs seem to confuse voters.

There are other problems such as that hanging chads--even if the chad tray was not full--can misread in the card reader.

In Florida, they hadn't cleaned out the trays for years.

And this whole business about chads are bad...well, here's something worse: 7000 touch screen voters in Orange County that got the wrong ballot; 40% of the polling places unable to open, so voters had to go home, in San Diego County; a whole election had to be re-run in Mississippi when the machines fouled it up; votes simply disappeared in Florida, and to this day no one knows who won.

Bev

A paneacea of a "new voting machine" has been presented while overlooking that the whole process of voting needs to be examined to eliminate error. There are errors in registration. There are untrained poll workers.

The main advantage of EVMs is that the poll workers get to go home early and the results are available by the 11:00 news. Sad

Witness California -- touch screen counties were among the last to report votes.

However, you are right about this: The whole system needs to be revamped, from voter registration through vote counting, and including redistricting rules.

Do have a look at the lead story on http://www.blackboxvoting.org today -- one of the things they are trying to do is remove the paper record of how many voters signed in to vote.

or are there no refunds?

And say hello to Mildred the poll worker next time you see her.

You have to check and sometimes double check your ballot. I don't know why Floridians found that so difficult. Basically I didn't feel sorry for the people who voted wrong...for goodness sake, you wonder how they function in life.
Since the last election they've gone to computer touch screens in my district now....I hate them.

Maybe everybody in the world is not as smart or sophisticated as you. Well, count your blessings*.

than assuming it was their error, or their lack of cerebral composition* that led to the chaos with the Florida ballots in the first place.

To generalize and take as hard fact the excuses and misdirected blame instilled by our media given for ballot error is not taking into consideration that most of the media never conceded or promoted the reality that Al Gore actually won the election, and by most studies actually won Florida.

they used them, and the poll workers who had done about 20 elections together at that poll were sad to see them go. They said they had never had a single spoiled ballot due to unreadable punching. They said that, so long as you clean out the machines, they work perfectly.

The only problem I witnessed was that one of the cards fell out of its envelope inside the ballot box, but, since there was only one, they matched it up and counted it.

kind of ballot. I had one of those once, when living in Phoenix, Arizona, and I was utterly outraged when I saw what it was. There was simply NO WAY to double check my vote properly. I thought then (and this would have been around 1986) that it was a ballot designed to create as many invalid votes as possible.

Anything else invites fraud. Tell Kerry that.

We're in a swing district in a key state for this election, and the Kerry representative who is setting up shop here emailed all the people who have gone to local Dem/Dean/Kerry meetups to introduce himself and offer to meet with us.
I met with him on Monday and came away a little disturbed. Aside from the fact that he was very young and very inexperienced, he didn't seem to "get" how important this whole BBV issue is. He also didn't seem interested in educating himself through ALL of the material and information out there.
I asked if my perception that he didn't think it was all that big a deal was accurate, and he just said, "I really don't know too much about it. My goal is to get some house parties set up, etc."
I told him that he could a hundred house parties a night, but if someone is counting the votes to benefit Bush and only Bush, it ain't gonna matter.
Now, just to be fair: He is just a kid setting up the headquarters and organization here, not a top advisor. But I would hope there would be come concern, or at least awareness, all the way up and down the chain.

Work on all the angles of voting: registration, deadlines, provisional ballots, etc. That is how elections are won.

Thanks for working on this!

Phil Singer, a spokesman for the presidential campaign of Democrat John Kerry, said Wednesday, “After what happened in Florida in 2000, making sure that there is a reliable paper trail in place to account for every vote is just common sense.”

http://www.detnews.com/2004/politics/0405/06/a08-144600.htm

scenes is specific discouragement of activists fighting the paperless touch screens, ie. "Kerry's people don't like the way you're going with this."

I'll share more privately with my network of trusted activists (already have, for the most part) but some real damage has been done, in very tangible ways. From what I've been told, certain actions have been derailed specifically by the Kerry camp.

I need to know first hand. If anyone knows someone from the Kerry camp who can call me, I'll tell them first hand what kind of interference it was. It caused real damage.

Bev

After my brief encounter with Diebold oh so long ago, this kind of potential discouragement bothers me.

You of course have my word beforehand that all info will remain confidential, should you desire it to be.

Unless you know you're getting a paper ballot, register for a absintee ballot. Instant paper.

People do have a point in that touch screen voting machines are easier to use for the elderly. What they need to do though is to make the machine pump out a card with the votes on it and then that card should be turned in and counted. Instant fix, it's secure and easy and has audit capabilities.

But that wouldn't enable diebold and the NSA to fix the vote.

And absentee ballot counting is often missing chain of custody protections, allowing ballots to be lost or replaced at certain attack points.

Still, it's a better option than touch screens, for those in states that allow it.

allows an advance paper ballot to be used. You simple need to request it, and need no special reason to get one, unlike a traditional absentee ballot where you may have to prove you won't be able to get to the polling place on election day. I intend to vote this year with an advance paper ballot.

not only on BBV, but issues such as the WAR, anti abortion judges and even the SCOTUS.

I don't know what's going on in the Kerry campaign, but he's alienating half the base, and I'm that part.

Keep up the good work Bev, I'm still behind you 100%.

:shrug:

Kerry won't go after Bush on anything.

BBV is the only way Bush can beat Kerry.

If he does nothing about it...HE DESERVES TO LOSE.

AND WE DESERVE DENNIS KUCINICH.

Call John Kerry's Senate office and leave a message asking him to cosponsor "The Voter Confidence Act," bill number S.1980, to require electronic voting machines to print paper ballots.

Dial 1-800-839-5276 (Capital Switchboard) and ask to be transferred to John Kerry's office.

Then you could say, "I'd like to leave a message for the Senator to please cosponsor "The Voter Confidence Act," bill number S. 1980, to improve the accuracy of our elections."

If he's behind this issue, he should demonstrate that he's behind it by supporting the legislation on it, not by making vague references in speeches.

If your not on board for paper ballots John...you should get on board. Now would be a good time.

Senators Who Acted For Voting Rights by Cosponsoring the Voter Confidence Act

Graham, Bob - (D - FL) (sponsor)
Nelson, Bill - (D - FL)
Hollings, Ernest - (D - SC)
Lautenberg, Frank - (D - NJ)
Schumer, Charles - (D - NY)
Dayton, Mark - (D - MN)


Senators Who Aren't Yet Cosponsors
Please call your Senators below at 1-800-839-5276.

Murkowski, Lisa - (R - AK)
Stevens, Ted - (R - AK)
Sessions, Jeff - (R - AL)
Shelby, Richard - (R - AL)
Lincoln, Blanche - (D - AR)
Pryor, Mark - (D - AR)
Kyl, Jon - (R - AZ)
McCain, John - (R - AZ)
Boxer, Barbara - (D - CA)
Feinstein, Dianne - (D - CA)
Allard, Wayne - (R - CO)
Campbell, Ben - (R - CO)
Dodd, Christopher - (D - CT)
Lieberman, Joseph - (D - CT)
Biden, Joseph - (D - DE)
Carper, Thomas - (D - DE)
Chambliss, Saxby - (R - GA)
Miller, Zell - (D - GA)
Akaka, Daniel - (D - HI)
Inouye, Daniel - (D - HI)
Grassley, Chuck - (R - IA)
Harkin, Tom - (D - IA)
Craig, Larry - (R - ID)
Crapo, Michael - (R - ID)
Durbin, Richard - (D - IL)
Fitzgerald, Peter - (R - IL)
Bayh, Evan - (D - IN)
Lugar, Richard - (R - IN)
Brownback, Sam - (R - KS)
Roberts, Pat - (R - KS)
Bunning, Jim - (R - KY)
McConnell, Mitch - (R - KY)
Breaux, John - (D - LA)
Landrieu, Mary - (D - LA)
Kennedy, Edward - (D - MA)
Kerry, John - (D - MA)
Mikulski, Barbara - (D - MD)
Sarbanes, Paul - (D - MD)
Collins, Susan - (R - ME)
Snowe, Olympia - (R - ME)
Levin, Carl - (D - MI)
Stabenow, Debbie - (D - MI)
Coleman, Norm - (R - MN)
Bond, Christopher - (R - MO)
Talent, James - (R - MO)
Cochran, Thad - (R - MS)
Lott, Trent - (R - MS)
Baucus, Max - (D - MT)
Burns, Conrad - (R - MT)
Dole, Elizabeth - (R - NC)
Edwards, John - (D - NC)
Conrad, Kent - (D - ND)
Dorgan, Byron - (D - ND)
Hagel, Chuck - (R - NE)
Nelson, Ben - (D - NE)
Gregg, Judd - (R - NH)
Sununu, John - (R - NH)
Corzine, Jon - (D - NJ)
Bingaman, Jeff - (D - NM)
Domenici, Pete - (R - NM)
Ensign, John - (R - NV)
Reid, Harry - (D - NV)
Clinton, Hillary - (D - NY)
DeWine, Mike - (R - OH)
Voinovich, George - (R - OH)
Inhofe, James - (R - OK)
Nickles, Don - (R - OK)
Smith, Gordon - (R - OR)
Wyden, Ron - (D - OR)
Santorum, Rick - (R - PA)
Specter, Arlen - (R - PA)
Chafee, Lincoln - (R - RI)
Reed, Jack - (D - RI)
Graham, Lindsey - (R - SC)
Daschle, Thomas - (D - SD)
Johnson, Tim - (D - SD)
Alexander, Lamar - (R - TN)
Frist, Bill - (R - TN)
Cornyn, John - (R - TX)
Hutchison, Kay - (R - TX)
Bennett, Robert - (R - UT)
Hatch, Orrin - (R - UT)
Allen, George - (R - VA)
Warner, John - (R - VA)
Jeffords, James - (I - VT)
Leahy, Patrick - (D - VT)
Cantwell, Maria - (D - WA)
Murray, Patty - (D - WA)
Feingold, Russell - (D - WI)
Byrd, Robert - (D - WV)
Rockefeller, John - (D - WV)
Enzi, Michael - (R - WY)
Thomas, Craig - (R - WY)


More information at MOVELEFT.COM
http://www.moveleft.com/moveleft_voter_conf_act_cosponsor_and_not.html

If he doesn't get on board, there's no point in donating further to him.

not quite as snottily cynical as my first one:
Perhaps they are afraid that if they DO win that the Republicans will try to use this issue to discredit the election.

Too many twists and turns and knots. But that does illustrate the point that the credibility of elections is paramount.

as much hard work and the countless, thankless hours you've put into BBV, do you ever wake up with a startle from a sound sleep to rouse yourself from the nightmare that the owner of Diebold might be skull and bones too?

Call me crazy, but I'm almost to the point that "they" are cornering the market on world domination and the rest of us are just spinning our wheels. Please tell me I'm wrong.

Take care my dear. You have many devoted and loyal believers here.
Keep fighting the good fight.

You can take comfort in that, at least. Here's the S&B membership list (through '72, I believe).

http://www.ctrl.org/boodleboys/boodlemembersalpha.htm

I've been around here long enough to know that if the head of DIEbold was S&B, the great researchers around here would have found it and posted it a gazillion times, all the while being accused of being "tin foil" nut jobs. Been there, done that, just don't have the t-shirt.
I was trying to inject some humor in what seems to be a very bleak picture of the upcoming election for some of us.

BTW how are you hedda? I certainly remember you from the early days. Those wonderful salad days just before the primaries. Those were the good old days, atleast I'd like to think they were...

They were good days, indeed, when we had a candidate who truly empowered us, represented us and actually told the truth. I'm hanging in there and working like mad on BBV. How 'bout you?

registering new voters and trying to get those that were disenfranchised in 2000, re-registered and trying to make sure their vote will be counted this time. (TN) Tennessee was a bigger scandal in 2000 than was ever reported, surprise, surprise!

It's been rewarding and I try to convince myself that I'm doing something worthwhile. If it weren't for Howard, I don't know if I would have ever even taken this path. I think he touched alot more people than he ever realized.

I'm in East Tennessee, near Knoxville.

So even though it doesn't address your question, I'll post it here. I like to keep things simple. And I don't think many Americans can see very far past simple ideas. I continue to see this analogy as being crucial to getting the message home-

If I had the choice between using an ATM machine that didn't have a receipt, versus one that did have a receipt, I'd take the later.

I really think the atm analogy drives this point home. Of course, this assumes that voting is an important issue. Of course, it isn't as important as money, most would say. But who'd use an atm machine that didn't tell them their balance. Well, hope this didn't waste your time unneccisarily.

he really should get on board with a voter verified paper ballot.

How are things going with your campaign?

When is the Democratic primary for Washington Sec. of State?

the campaign is going well.

Because they despise democracy?? Because they are owned by the corporations?

Thanks to the huge stink made out of the rocket scientists in Florida that couldn't figure out a simple paper ballot system communities all over the country have been compeled to replace the old fashioned system that discriminates against stupid people with the fancy computer voting that might, or might not, count anybody's vote properly.

We have ourselves to blame.

First, the optical scan systems were selectively set -- in preferred areas they were set to notify the voter if there was a problem with the ballot so the voter could correct the ballot, whereas they were set to accept flawed ballots in minority areas.

Second, of the overvotes and undervotes, Duval County sticks out like a sore thumb -- all the cards from four minority areas were brought to a central location for counting, and something like 28000 of them were spoiled with extra punches. That sounds more like someone with a skinny knitting needle than stupid voters.

Don't always buy the company line. "Stupid voters" was a talking point put out by the Republicans.

Bev

that all those people we kept seeing on TV saying that they were sure they didn't vote the way they intended because a punch card ballot was too darn hard to figure out were really republican moles on a disinformation campaign to cover up deliberate ballot tampering?

Sorry, I don't buy it.

black box voting...you can find it .

that I am a proponent of computerized voting, I am not. I prefer the old fashioned punch card. The possibility of the stupid, or careless, invalidating their own ballot doesn't bother me in the slightest.

check precinct 216 in volusia.

nevermind

ballots. Are you saying that 85 percent of people in Palm beach county are too stupid to vote? That sound like a right wing taking point to me. You should be more careful about which point of view you are listening to.
The butterfly ballot is illegal for a reason. It is deceptive and causes voter error.

Oh how well I remember it, it wasn't 85% it was one old geezer that came forward when it was apparent how close the race was. Then the next day there are several other geezers (yeah, me too) that step up and the press totally embraced them and gave them utmost credibility. It was an embarassment. I totally supported Gore and I was as pissed as any of you, but this was freaking lame. The whole time all I kept thinking of was OJ in the trial when they told him to put the glove on. He was a freaking actor of course he couldn't get the glove on. Then next thing ya know EVERYBODY is coming in "I didn't mean to vote for Nader". It was an obvious manipulation and its as embarrasing as hell.

Keep in mind, at the same time they are doing this, they were trying to throw out all votes from sailors on ships at sea because of the time stamp issue. Shamefull.

My beef is, they are setting the stage to do it again if they need to. The touchscreen votes are going to be immediately contested in Palm Beach and Broward Co.

Maybe there should be a cognitive test in order to be able to vote. I mean, if you are too senile to punch a hole, can you even comprehend the issues at hand. And you sure as hell shouldn't drive that huge road boat around S. Fla.

Flame Away

about what "really" happened in Florida. In my own humble county, on the other side of the continent, "community leaders" were up in arms over being subjected to punch card voting as a result of what they think happened in Florida. Laughably they would explain how punch cards "disenfranchised" the demographic that they advocate for. In essence insisting that their demographic was substantially dumber than average, since people all over the state at that time were using the same system. Now we have computer voting. The demographic groups that were complaining the loudest about the old system are ones that are heavily democratic. Hence my contention that we have ourselves to blame.

Man I like that Duhh thing. I live in S. Florida and just about every thing you do here comes off about as well as the last election. You can't even get a Big Mac here without considering suicide due to the nuclear dumbass factor.


They have used the electronic voting machines twice now and its quietly been contested in court both times. They just recalled a bunch of the machines a few months back so now there is a track record and legal precident (sp) to contest any election outcome....again....in WPB and the rest of S. Fla. So get ready folks, here it comes again.

(Hi Mike! My website's back up!)

Canada votes using a totally manual system - paper ballots.

The results are tallied in time for the 11 p.m. news.

of your assertion. Do you have any evidence that Kerry prefers paperless touch screens to punch cards?

What's the deal here? This position, or perception (I've heard that Kerry will not support any action against paperless touch screen voting if it takes place in a punch card county) is really hurting the clean voting movement.

What do you know about it?
I'd be delighted to talk to any member of the Kerry campaign.
If this position is factual, I will publicize it, sorry.
If this is a perception, and the Kerry people are being misrepresented, I'll get out there and clear it up.

What gives with this?



Bev is asking the question. If you are with the Kerry campaign, can you help figure out what's going on? If people in the campaign are doing one thing while Kerry supports another, that needs to be straightened out.

Sometimes there is a reason for withholding "evidence" from a broadly read board and that could be as simple as the desire to contain what may be a misunderstanding. Bev needs help to get a connection to the campaign on a national level, someone who is authorized to speak for Kerry, or Kerry himself, or I imagine she would have been able to have the question answered by now.

If you can connect her to the Kerry campaign, can get someone's attention at the level where they know what the heck is supposed to be going on, then the help would be appreciated.

They are inaccurate and deteriorate too easily. We don't need ANY voting machines. The best way to vote it a printed paper ballot on which you put an "X" next to the candidate of your choice. Punch cards are better than electronic voting machines but they are far from ideal.

?

Kidding...kind of.

It's a proven fact he got more votes w/touch screen vs paper.

Check your email. Sharona sent you a contact that may help.

or were you going to wait until closer to the election to begin making this charge?

But I did hear a question. Perhaps we should wait to hear from Kerry's campaign before you start throwing barbs. I really think Kerry should take a strong stand...don't you? I mean this will affect him greatly in November. If he does not...why is he not?

maybe the "Kerry is in on it" tale will be the punchline to the whole BBV joke, to be delivered right before the election.

jokes on you.

Thankyouverymuch.

Paper has worked fine for over 200 years.

Interesting because I know Bev is a very good researcher. Odd that she would put forward an outright myth.

If she is asking a question, you can bet there is a reason for her to be asking the question.

Why has Kerry kept silence on this issue? Does he not fear Diebold? If not why? If he thinks he can win on them when we all know contrary...Why has he not said anything? Seems it would be in his favor.

I admit I am no fan of Kerry...I plan on voting for him...But by God I want my vote counted correctly. Touch screen states worry me as they should him. Why the hell is he silent? Why has he not signed on to the myraid of bills before Congress?

Too many questions...not enough answers.

An incident. I want to know whether the incident was due to Kerry's people or Kerry himself. And see post #88.

Bev

locate any info.

I also know that he and Dean discussed this issue a while back. :shrug:

:kick:

And I'm sure that he knows just as much about Diebold as we do.

as we BBV'ers are!

:kick:

I am not putting forward a myth. What I hope to do is to find out whether his campaign people are responsible for the incident or whether it comes all the way from the top.

And the reason I am not making the incident public is that the specifics were told to me in confidence. I think I have certainly established my credibility by now.

I am concerned. I want to get to the bottom of this. There are compelling reasons -- not the least of which is, there are indications that the Bush administration may be considering hijacking this issue, making it their own, and possibly scapegoating Diebold (several powerful Republicans are furious with Diebold for its stupidity. Maybe it was rigging elections, but they sure don't want to see such behavior get CAUGHT. I have been traveling, and meeting with many politicians and influential political groups. The word is, more than a few Republicans are incensed at Diebold's idiotic handling of its own public relations, as well as its continued blunders.)

You want evidence on the Bush administration thing? That also came to me in confidence, but I can tell you that I have been called, on behalf of individuals in the White House, at least six times in the last 9 days.

At first I was concerned about the Secret Service investigation and was thinking they might be working on a harassment campaign, but my husband thinks, and this clicks with me, that they are doing these special orders of the books so they can discuss this in strategy meetings to decide whether to capitalize on the issue and hijack it from the Dems.

So in view of the fact that Kerry's people called some people working with BBV people and told them to back off the touch screens, this is a potential problem.

Right?

Bev

There may be no saving Bush.

But the real prize to hold on to, is Congress.

Hijacking the issue might help them do that.

There is also the illusion of perception. PR the heck out of it, use the media, let people think the problem is being solved. And while they are at it, make sure the issue doesn't go beyond the 2004 election.

Controlling the voting issue is about so much more than just Bush.