I never Thought I would see the day when I am ashamed of some right here

On Democratic underground!

I am a patriot through & through, I refuse to let the necons get the upper hand with me on that.

With some of the socialistic bullshit being posted here, it just makes me sick! Yes whats going on in the Middle East is Horrible, yes there is nothing that justifies it & yes I want it to stop! But we need to stay on message & we need to put the blame in the correct place! Blaming anyone else including our military only give the neocons more ammunition against us! put the blame where it belongs, squarely on the Bush Administrations shoulders!

Thats my rant for today, unless I see more bullshit being posted.

:eyes:

:D - sorry, couldn't resist!

it gives these criminals an excuse to advance their corrupt and ideological agenda and silence dissent.

open your eyes free to be gay

Feel sorry for the troops! Give us more money. Believe our lies. Don't be fooled by what your eyes see on TV and the pictures.

Com'on! The neo-cons have been feeding us bullshit. And some of us are eating it shovels full.

:kick:

Why put this off on the entire board. If his beef is with Mopaul he should have stayed on the thread and debated him. This kind of "I need my own thread to get my point heard by everyone" is ridiculous.

and equal opportunity. I won't even reply on mopaul's thread.

But threads that scold all of DU for what one poster or a few posters have said is just not fair. He posted on that thread and he should have stayed there to further the debate but instead used this wonderful sounding board to generalize about DU.

The comments were clearly directed at those who blame people who are NOT in the Bush* admin

I agree. I put the blame squarely on the Bush administration. As we all know, we wouldn't be in this mess if Bush hadn't taken us to war for no good reason.

Heavens to Murgatroyd!

:eyes:

think alike :hi: what on earth?!?! :wow:

We spendmost of our time exposing "Fascistic bullshit"....we don't need to be shot in the back as charge the enemy....

Really, MB! We're all just mere reflections of Marx... :D

It's OK to be a guard at a concentration camp if somebody orders you to!

I just put one *blame the troops* poster on ignore, I am so damn angry right now.

I have to agree with you I need to use the ignore button. Some here want to go back to the Vietnam era even to the point of spitting on our soldier's! & I refuse to let that happen.

I'll miss something.

Gee willikers, I thought it was when the troops threw babies in a ditch and then shot them.

My bad.

No one said it was "the worst part"

Torture, rape, and murder, OK, OK, war is hell. Spitting on Soldiers! That's horrible!

Here's what you replied to:

I have to agree with you I need to use the ignore button. Some here want to go back to the Vietnam era even to the point of spitting on our soldier's! & I refuse to let that happen.

It's about the lengths some people will go to to recreate an era of protest. It says nothing about what the worst part of VietNam was.

. . during college frat initiations?

Just curious.

BTW - I was actively anti-war during Viet Nam. I never knew anyone who spat on troops nor did I ever hear anyone suggest such a thing. The troops were mostly our friends who couldn't get a deferment.

They didn't want to go and didn't want to be there when they went.

The thought of being angry with the troops, my friends who were forced into a terrible situation by our corrupt government, never occurred to me.

of the troops being spit upon?

there is a systemic problem at DU and *I'm Outta Here* had enough. If some thought that the Berg threads were making us look bad, this just trumped it for me.

because you didn't like a some things individual posters said? Have you ever participated in an online discussion group before? Have you been to other boards? What goes on here is tame in comparison.

My recommendation is to control your experience here using the tools the admins provide. A particular poster consistently grates on you? Add them to your ignore list and they're gone. Thread topics, like Berg, bother you? You can click on them to hide them as well.

Using these tools, you can make every person and every topic that bothers you disappear. Why not try that instead of leaving?

Nicely put! :thumbsup:

B'bye. Later. Adios...

RL

collectively, we all are for allowing bipartisan entrenchment of a brutal foreign policy, one that is eagerly enforced by the troops.

if we didn't have this mentality, and willing troops to enforce it, atrocities like iraq would never occur.

What the United States has that other Western countries don't have is an aggressive foreign policy. Canada doesn't meddle in the affairs of countries around the world. Ottawa and Toronto aren't targets because Canadians aren't engineering coups in Latin America or propping up authoritarian regimes in the Middle East. France doesn't have 725 foreign military bases with troops deployed in over 130 countries, including the Islamic holy land. Denmark isn't giving billions of dollars a year and weapons to Israel so that it can continue its illegal occupation of Palestine. note that these events were not initiated by mr. bush, they have been allowed to happen by all of us, over long periods of time - responsibility flows from the bottom up, mr. bush and cabal are just exploiting this american mentality, not vice versa


Remember that shortly after 9/11 when Osama bin Laden, who had the entire world's attention to denounce whatever he despised most about the "infidels," stated that America is now facing something that others have "tasted for decades." His unpleasant references to the dropping of the atomic bomb on Japan, the deadly U.S.-backed sanctions in Iraq, and the Israeli tanks rolling through Palestine, were instructive.

Despite bin Laden's naming of one specific foreign policy reason after another for the al Qaida attack, we are told to naively believe that it's about freedom. And thanks to our corporate-media-enforced ignorance of international affairs, this explanation has amazingly worked for the majority of the country.

http://www.cjonline.com/stories/051704/opi_stoner.shtml

Some of the blame needs to go to the actual culprits. Granted the Bush* Cabal has set the tenor and tone and shows no remorse but it is the soldiers that are shown with shit eating grins on their faces as they torture other human beings. It is not isolated as they would have you believe. I personally do not want to be near a soldier that has been involved in the Iraq or Afghanistan crusades. I feel it is systemic and enjoyed by them. Until the military itself stands up and says no more and really starts cleaning house I feel they are complicit and covering it up. It is called CYA and all officers engage in it.

'Course I'm prone to "socialism"...not to mention responsibility for one's actions.

bullshit being posted, be sure and let us know. :eyes:

I am sooooo sick of people thinking they have the right to be the arbiter of what can or cannot be posted here.

It's a big tent. We DON'T march in lockstep and if someone is offended or ashamed, they have plenty of options. You can only control your actions, not dictate what other people do or post.

That's MY rant for the day!

& of course you know what elephants leave piles of.

:wtf:

Instead of these blanket condemnations and nasty invective, why don't you try reasoned debate. Threads like this amount to putting your fingers in your ears and yelling "la-la-la-la."

When you say we should support the troops, are you including the ones who raped, sodomized, tortured and abused the prisoners? If so, why should we support them? Do they have any responsibility in this situation? How would you react?

It's called a DISCUSSION board. How about we try that, lest YOU run the risk of being one of those elephants.

The problem starts at the top, but doesn't end there. A lot of folks speak about the Lynndie Englands of this scandal if they're merely victims, but they were willing participants. And apparently, it was very widespread.

There are plenty of people in the military with honor and integrity. But that no more applies to the whole military than it does to any organization.

lost me there...

not sure how socialism comes into play here...

lost me there...

It's sad to see all the images and the situation our military faces, but as one who opposed this invasion from before the beginning, I find little solace in knowing many of the predictions I made have come true...and have been even worse than I expected. I'm sure I'm not the only one in this camp. It's difficult to do the "I told ya so"...especially to the more die-hard Repugnicans and Bunnypants fans, who now are having reservations and playing sanctimonius could do more damage than good in the prime objective of removing this regime.

I see a bit of "piling on"...people looking for every tidbit of bad news about this regime or Israel or Christians <many topics here> and go wild with both speculation and chest-pounding. Some of it, I know, is with a ton of sarcasm and loaded with inside jokes from members, but it can appear to newbies and lurkers as just the counter-site to Free Republic. In some cases, they're right. In a vast majority, this site offers a resource that enlightens many every day.

Cheers to DU!

. . that I've visited will have dozens of ranting stupid flame posts running about equal to the numbers of ads for porn sites and the latest stock tips . . only occasionally will you find an on-topic post. FR is a good example where it's often hard to find the topic in the morass of their threads.

DU is definitely one of the best sites on the web (thanks to DU policy and the volunteer moderators).

It's easy enough to ignore posts that are poorly expressed or nonsensical. I don't see the problem.

Also, people on the left come in a huge variety of education levels, ages and backgrounds. I try to write my posts to clearly express what I'm trying to say - and I encourage all posters to do the same and use the spell-checker. But, even if others don't use the best sentence structure or wording, I'll try hard to understand their meaning - and respond to that if I'm motivated.

When I first started posting on message boards a few years ago I'm sure my posts were just as sloppy - and I still write some bloopers.

WTF?

1. Socialist principles have NOTHING to do with the Iraq War or the abuses the US is committing there and elsewhere.

2. The bushgang are to blame. They deserve to run out of office straight into war crimes tribunals. But Rummy isn't shown in pictures beating feces-streaked, brutalized naked prisoners or gloating over prisoners' battered corpses. Cheney isn't pushing the button on the joystick that launches missiles into a family home during a weddding party. Shrub isn't pulling the trigger that blows some little kid's head off. The US military is.


I've always been a staunch supporter of our military. I'm a military brat and my dad gave his life for this country. But we've never been the Nazis in Poland before. Now we are and sadly, many of our troops and our military leadership are acting like it.

This "some posters", "some bullshit", "some right here" stuff is getting tiresome. If you have a problem with a specific post or topic, that's one thing, but these generalized rants against a vague "some" are tiresome and vapid.

seems like there is a new one every day... and never even a clue as to what it is they are whining about...

"this board" has thousands of posters, but one post pisses off one person, and we are all under the blanket of blame

and oddly enough this gripe was about a blanket of blame placed on the troops :crazy:

However, the blanket of blame ONLY belongs on us socialistic liberals. The troops, even the ones who rape, torture and humiliate prisoners are completely blameless. :silly:

TGIF, my friend! :hi:

don't blame the many for the crimes of the few, unless those few happen to be DUers, then they share the blame

I too am sick of the huge number of DUers who endorse Stalin :eyes:

Thank Time It's Friday!! My last weekend before the trip to Bush Country!

:hi:

I don't see that one's ideas about government involvement in the economy dictate thinking the CIA killed Berg or that the US military or intelligence community carried out 9/11.

my lucky day :eyes:

Wow, here since April, what?, second and already you've "seen the day"! Gosh, that must be hard. :) But then, if I remember, you were pretty ashamed of DU for something else just a short while after you arrived. As I told you then, learn to deal with it.

I will put the blame on George W. Bush & Company for this mess.

AND I will put the blame on each and every member of the miltary -- from enlisted man to general -- who participated, condoned, suggested, or looked the other way on this blasphemy that is the prisoner torture.

I keep forgetting because when I look at the Nordic countries and some wonderful socialist programs in other countries, I'm not seeing bad stuff.

Please, enlighten me.

Or are you simply connecting the term "Soviet-style communism" with the term "socialism"? If so, that's way too simplistic.

what you think about the "socialistic bullshit" on Democratic Underground?

What's wrong with socialism?

In what way, exactly, do you "support the troops"?

That's all I'll say, unless I see more bullshit posted.

But we need to stay on message & we need to put the blame in the correct place! Blaming anyone else including our military only give the neocons more ammunition against us!

The only message I need to stay "on" is whatever damned message I believe to be the truth. I don't give a rat's ass what the neocons think. I already know they despise the truth. Neither their contempt nor your preaching will stop me from telling it. And neither changes the fact that I am a patriotic American.

So keep your "anti-socialistic bullshit" prosyletizing to yourself.

health care and ending corporate welfare.

They're an old whipping boy and they don't deserve it.

As for DU-ers, you're shocked, SHOCKED, that we have radicals here.

Hehehe . . .

And, I do blame Bush and the Dems who supported him and the military who trained the sadists who are disgracing this country.

typically when engaging in a rant - i try to have a point supported by facts - maybe you should look into that strategy...

but the military does not get a free ride. They broke their own laws and codes to participate in the horrors that went on over their. THere are a lot of good people in the military, but that does not excuse the crimes of the bad ones.

And I have no problem, whatsoever, with socialist programs, such as social security and welfare; universal healthcare........Do you?

That is why I am a Democrat. I may have used the term poorly. What I was trying to convey with that remark was about Lenin & Stalin & yes I have a major problem with those two & yes there are those here who would advocate for them.

Communist! Hahaha! Well, I am, I guess. I support Communistic economic entities such as profit-sharing, and group health insurance.

post the links you have with DU posters advocating for Stalin? Surely you have links to corroborate that statement, don't you?

:wtf:

RL

:boring:

Typical unsubstantiated, overgeneralizing claptrap. So predictable.

And how does that relate to Iraq?

Investigations should determine the culprits, from the enlisted personnel in those pictures to the idiot president who started the whole mess.

If you're concerned about bullshit, wouldn't it be braver to reply directly to the offending posts?

and my american flag is bigger than yours. it's 20 feet wide, and the pole is waving back and forth on a gas generator, diesel gas.

i've painted my face red white and blue and my underwear looks like old glory.

more bullshit

i suppose you drive a 4 cylinder hybrid car? i have three hummers...count em', three. one is red, one white, and one blue

there's an SUV that someone painted up like the flag...with flat paint!!! What a freaking eyesore!

which is "Why blame soldiers when the Bush* admin has so much more responsibility for this?"

Getting rid of a soldier is not going to change the situation in Iraq, and will not lead to less bloodshed. Getting rid of the Bush* admin will.

So let's focus on how much socialism exists on DU. There's an issue that will do no one any good at all.

i assume you are privy to secret information as to how kerry's going to get us out?

(don't see how kucinich's 1% is going to get him elected . . .)

And the info isn't secret. Kerry has clearly stated how Kerry's going to get us out

"Blame the Administration"
"Blame the Soldiers"
"Blame the intricate balance of socioeconomic geopolitical factors weighed against environmental considerations in a postmodern, socialist, fascist, media consolidated world"

Blame whoever you want, everyone has a point.

Meyers made a stupid statement today--should we blame him? Should we blame Colin Powell--granted, not military but ex military who should have and could have taken some of the reigns, but chose to lie to the UN and now--why now, he whines, that he was lied to.

:cry: :nopity:

What kind of people do we have leading this country anyhow? Not only do they wear tu tu proudly, pink, with an underpinning of white, but also whine that they have "been lied to"

:cry: :nopity:

This great country has an intelligence bureau that the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing, the DOD does not know what the Pentagon is doing, No one knows what the troops are doing, as a matter of fact the troops have gone crazy and no one knew it. They whine also:
"we didn't know."

:cry: :nopity:

How can anyone believe this rich and powerful country has such ineptitude amongst almost all of it's government insitutions? I don't. It is a matter of playing dumb as a plausible denial.

And we trust these people with the deployment of the nukes in our arsenal?

Holding U.S. troops accountable for crimes committed under the Geneva Convention and Military law is now socialist bullshit.

Gee, I never thought I'd see the day someone would say something like that.

Some one has let this go on as no one in the service would be able to get away with it, unless it was coming from higher up. I am willing to bet the Washington Post made sure these pictures got in the paper because it looks like the big wigs want to make this look like 6 or 8 PFC's did this and we know they were with others.It is wrong to let these few take the blame for this. Media is doing the right thing. Get it all out.

If you want to excuse the military for the sake of the civillians then you might as well excuse all the nazi generals who ran those concentration camps.

How DOES our military rate in preparedness for the missions of today? How does it stack up from grunt to command with other nations past and present? There has been a continuing admission that certain missions are dangerously inappropriate for our military. War brings out unwholesome and blind extremes from all sides refusing to look at the naked beast which is all of us.

In Kosovo there were a lot of criticisms and predictions- by the GOP. That worked out and it had to do with the management and the cause and the reception of the people on the ground. I defy any military, with a hijacked chickenhawk leadership purging the top brass and moving chess pieces of living soldiers like puppets for profit, to maintain success or sanity. This fish indeed rots from the head and whether our indoctrinated, maybe not too disciplined thinking troups have performed nobly in this mess is more a case of individuals beating the system with personal values rather than institutional purity.

You could look at the education level and cultural training and mission indoctrination given to the soldiers and the quality of education in the officer corps and realize disaster is not far away if they are marched right into it. Sheer technical power and invincible prowess or numbers cannot cover over the human element for long. Yet that is the BIG plan for the WH pansies. Toys and bluster. Overkill and conquest. Total invasion of privacy and intimidation. Despising the foot soldiers or the draftee whether they admit to it or not. Underfunding and privatizing like the army was a social security program to destroy.

An army is skilled in destruction and can self-destruct when misled. Humans are not natural warriors but stressed out monkeys, sometimes hopped up on pills and frenzy for motivation. Overall, objectively, our(ALL humanity) posturing and performance looks downright silly and shameful in the glorious cause of war. Stupidity is a popular prop. Ignorance and loss of self is suicidally a pre-quisite. People who sign up are not always first and foremost patriots with a mature understanding of the primacy of American values((freedom, rights) in accomplishing the job. Some are just like the soldiers of the past in all nations, attracted by the same things, doing the same things, suffering and dying and raging against the enemy no matter if the enemy had justice on its side or is an innocent bystander. Looting and raping and abusing captives and civilians is always close to the surface of war behavior everywhere. The more an army is poor or brutalized or ill led, the more it unleashes the worst.

It can get worse. Much much worse like the Soviets in Afghanistan. We might brag it was harder and longer to take us down that road, kicking and screaming or just plain bewildered. We might uphold the image of honor or triumph and justifiable ends. That always goes with a heavy dose of hypocrisy and willful blindness.

But the same things will happen as in the past. If a country is conquered and occupied and resists, it will end up like this. If it doesn't the conquerors will despoil it and themselves. History repeats itself endlessly. Knowledge is not enough nor quality nor democracy nor cultural values. So the priorities on high and the leadership must be reset away from war as anything but a last resort- by We the People. A citizen army of draftees at least will keep us focused on our national involvement. That does not guarantee these things won't happen either. Neither does training. Dread and discipline, not rationalization and joy should be our daily feelings. Those who feel joy when one innocent is hurt should not be in office.

As I look down my street I can see the horrendous potential of certain goofs and morons, child slapping drunks and warring spouses. Put a gun into that human's hands and launch a war and I would not be shocked at anything that would ensue, training or not. Under the brutalizing effects of war it is the soldier who is the first casualty of his gun. His weak spot is his own soul.

A lot of the idiotic officer corps voted for the draft dodgers and now they have war on their resumes if that was a goal of theirs. A lot of people signed up forgetting they belonged to the whims of the administration, the laxness of Congress. But they can beat anyone so who cares. That the ones who stand against immorality and war crimes will probably get more and stiffer sentences than the degenerates is a sign of enforced collapse from the cowards on top, behind the lines, behind the crimes.

Cries of frustration too much resembling poor judgment of Freeperville label artists are natural too. This all has to do with a democracy letting itself be taken and used like a hotrod in a game of chicken with all the knowledge good will of the world warning us to be responsible- to see- to act as Americans- not like Germans in the 1930's. Some of our soldiers have stopped being victims of Bush and have gone mad with their own "support" of the monsters leading them to death and dishonor. All simple rants and accusations should go straight to the(insert one mile of expletives deleted here) Coup junta and all their "thinkers", stooges, corporate sponsors, and propagandists. Then- later- we can blame ourselves for not stopping them when most of the world tried a lot harder.

This whole country has been dragged in an Iraqi prison of its own self blindness. The door isn't locked yet. The Bushistas are at the locksmiths waving fistfuls of our cash.

We are all human. Glory heroes are too. The line between a killer and a savior is very fine and the DNA is indistinguishable. Fantasies of love or hate are equally dangerous, equally unreal, equally a cop-out of personal accountability. I am sick of all of them. Real humans don't need them except to relieve small fears and animal stress.
While we have to deal with the fantasy of the pure idealized army the soldiers themselves (and ourselves) are in fact struggling in the foxholes with basic, foul and complex need for survival in a madhouse. High ideals, I notice, are only protecting the scum who refuse accountability at the top. Those trying to protect the people from losing all hope and and values to build a real future try to wrest away(too weakly) the tattered dishonored banner. The naked reality of this dirty war, these anti-democratic leaders and liars, is that we can't sugar coat and mythologize ourselves to a kinder lie, a gentler ignorance.

The Dems who want us to retreat back to 2000 and forget our humiliation are setting us up for more exploitation and failure. That is not realism. It is another fantasy.

Hence the socialists etc. who want more change, a deeper purge, a higher set of ideals. But WE will still be insufficient and human for the tasks we believe most in. Still human and uncertain. Still, possibly, doomed to failure. When it comes down to it there are a statistical few up to and committed to the progress of humanity and they are not God or an all wise, pure in motive substitute. And there are a few who take great joy in other things. When war is the result ultimate failure of human nature is self-evident and usually the soldiers are just another type of victim, of fallen souls and slaves.

The fine line or the commitment to aggression should be left in the dustbin of history. Cheney believes in eternal war. Bush in eternal dodging and self profit. Kerry is working out the future of the world with strength. But we are not where we must be to survive. ALL of the world's resources will be needed to manage our existence. Every bullet made does not need to be fired to kill millions if not all of us. Alternatives in the past century and recently work. A united humanity can progress, disarm and work things out. Most people, the sanes ones, realize we have no other choice. The others must never be allowed to lead.

I support all of us. And I want us to be just and free. I want an end to militarizarion and exploitation. And however ugly an unsatisfying it might turn out to be, how "unheroic" or "weak", it has to be done everywhere. Or we won't need wars or adventurers to see the deaths of billions. Viruses kill. Do we praise viruses? Volcanos are dramatic. Do we give slaughtering eruptions medals? People who promote life and save it are heroes, nurturing against contrary forces of blind dissolution. A hero recognized for who killing is a sad contradiction, a vast sorrow, a collective sin, an untimely waste. Our brief post Ice Age frenzy(civilization) is coming to end. We must grow or die and the majority are there in heart and mind if not in power.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

... when every post you make is almost completely devoid of thought or substance.

I sometimes wish I could research like some of the old timers here. There have been some really good posts. I like to go in the archives from time to time and read the stuff from 2001. There are some pro's here.

I wish I could research like some here. I like to go to the archives from 2001 and read the history. There are some pro's here.

I double posted, does this add to my post count?

I'm locking.