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3 farmers getting DESTROYED. it's 3 people (who don't know it) against 1 apache attack heli. one guess as to who wins. not for the faint of heart . . ..

When do we get to prosecute for war crimes? It is even against the GC to use a .50 cal on people...a .30mm is insane.

Support the troops? :puke:

Do you expect the helicopter to hug the enemy and sing kumbaya with them?

or are u channeling RUSH or somebody :evilgrin:

peace

I see a tractor and a video with no context whatsoever. I can't tell if they are farmers or combatants fleeing after an ambush on american soldiers.

...disproportionate force, you're correct-- it's not possible to tell whether these are the farmers they appear to be or secret night time evil doers. When in doubt-- smoke 'em. Especially the kid that's trying to surrender. Kill the wounded, too. Salt the field with DU, to boot!

Feel better? Make you proud?

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eom

The boy waves a white flag. He's promptly SHREDDED by incendiary rounds.

Let me ask you a question. Did you see any guns????? If they DID have rifles, would it matter against an Apache gunship???? If they had just finished an act of "insurgency" why aren't they hiding. They just go back to their farming????

Wake up. You've witnessed a war crime.

It's all just a video game! I'm so sick.

no, i sure don't expect that. however, i would like to see an accordance with common law of military practices. engaging non combatants with an apache! how can you say in any conceivable manner, that this is justifiable? send in ground troops. keep the recon on them. they are simply farming...not fighting . . ..

This is a family of farmers on their own land. There is no f*cking excuse for blasting people from the air. It's a war crime to begin with. But they're not hitting enemies, they're hitting farmers in the field.

In case you haven't realized it, even the maladministration doesn't claim to be at war with the Iraqi people.

I've seen nothing to suggest this was a family of farmers besides the tractor. I also see the guy suspiciously openning or unwrapping some equipment after the first shots get fired.

:wtf:

Why did they kill the second person who was waving a flag? Why did they kill and injured person who was no threat to anyone?

Please do your level best to justify that.

no flag mate. a cloth (shirt perhaps?). it's the international sign of SURRENDER...i give up . . ..

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someone to "go away" just because they disagree with you. What a bunch of reactionaries!

If any of you people screaming "murder" actually got all the facts you might find that the soldiers were justified in what they did because those "farmers" might really have had weapons. They've been known to use the white flag to trick soldiers into letting their guard down. It's just as easy to believe that as it is to believe that our military just kills innocents for the hell of it.

Shit happens, war is hell and in every war non-combatants get killed. If a soldier thinks he is going to get blown up he has the right to defend himself and nobody here who offers their opinions so freely was there to see what actually happened. It's clear that most of you want to believe the worst about our soldiers who are dying in large numbers by the way so be thankful it's not you over there taking a bullet instead of them.

We are in the process of stealing a country. We are murdering Iraqis who are against our stealing their country. If I break into your house and you try to stop me and I kill you, I cannot claim "self defense" in your murder. So, the best way US soldiers can "defend" themselves is to leave Iraq immediately - otherwise they are committing murder in the act of armed robbery.

RC

...along with Iraqi shop-keepers, Iraqi teachers, Iraqi engineers, Iraqi fathers and their sons, and Iraqi women and their daughters. Rule number one of modern warfare: identify your targets.

I wish I could say there was some satisfaction or relief in sarcasm, but this is just so sickening that nothing lessens the shame of it.

War against people. Is this how we "liberate" Iraqis. Liberate them of their lives.

These guys were FARMERS. They weren't pointing weapons.

This looked like plain SPORT KILLING!!!! These creaps need to be hauled out of uniform and put in jail for the rest of their lives.

Only congress can declare war, and they haven't done it. This is an illegal invasion and occupation in violation of international law. This particular act is yet another in a very long list of crimes against humanity.

The way I see this, it is a military video clip. It would not have been released if they had thought that there was any kind of wrong doing. I am sure they would have sent ground forces in after the shooting to secure the weapons that were left at the scene. Had it ended up that there were none, we would not be watching this clip today.

Secondly, I trust the soldiers in the field to be able to make a better judgement about what is going on at the time that I can from just watching part of a video clip. To me it looks like weapons. I am sure they had a much better view.

That is my take on the matter. Take it or leave it.

Please read the FAQ.

Here is *my* take on this video:

1. Using the caliber weapon that was used is in violation of the Geneva Convention.

2. Attacking unarmed civilians is against the Geneva Convention.

3. Attacking someone *after* they have indicated surrender is in violation of the Geneva Convention.

4. A white or light colored piece of cloth, bandanna, handkerchief, shirt or other item of clothing, waved back and forth in the air is an INTERNATIONAL INDICATION of surrender!

5. Firing on a wounded enemy is a violation of the Geneva Convention.

EVEN if the three persons shown in that video WERE armed to the teeth, they indicated (well the surviving two did) SURRENDER!

We screwed the pooch here and it's evident that this is NOT an unusual occurrance with this war!

Feh!

My great grandfather, grandfathers, great uncles, uncles, father, brother, son ALL fought in the military in WW I, WW II, Korea, Viet Nam, and BOTH Gulf Wars! My great uncle's Purple Heart sits on my trophy shelf and pictures of my father in law in uniform (along with the folded flag and shells from his funeral) are on my computer desk!

I KNOW the military and this video SICKENS me.

309

good post!

I've included another one of our boys in action....."IT'S AWESOME". At least that's how it's star describes what's contained therein.

RC

n/t
Frightening!!! Choice of soundtrack is awesome! I am never going to be whole again in my life for what my country is guilty of and for what we Americans have let this administration get away with. Crimes against humanity. We have so much to be sorry for.

Is Copolla making a sequel yet?

Have we won yet?

we win.

(and to be honest it often doesn't) but I'm pretty sure this footage also came along with some real nice commentary from the troops - you'd think they were spotty kids playing DOOM in a dark room to listen to them - instead of murdering 3 people in a field.

that paid for the video game for our young troopers.

not a US citizen - although (ashamedly) Australia was part of the "COW" so part of my tax money is tied up there - Little John was pretty shrewed about it though - we went as "diplomatic cover" (or a rubber Johnny if you like) and basically our troops weren't in "shooting" positions so we get avoid all the fall out from "accidentally" killing civilians, blowing up weddings, raping prisoners etc etc - sometimes I think Bush should trade in Rove for whoever John Howard's been using - I beleive his name is Mephistopheles

I think I remember hearing that Howard's party was in trouble. Am I mistaken?

we don't have set dates like you guys (allowing the incumbents to go when it suits which is bloody annoying) but it'll probably be this Oct/Nov.

Howard and the Liberals (our conservatives) have been in now for 8 years (no term limits here) and I think he may be on the nose now (that old diaper analogy) but scarily I think he could actually make it another term IF the Australian people beleived he'd serve the full term himself - people think he'll probably retire half way through and they'd be left with Peter Costello (Treasurer and Dep Leader) who's not all that popular mainly because of the introduction of a GST a few years back (that they all bloody voted for anyway??) Personally I'd prefer Costello - just as economically right wing but a little less divisive on issues such as reconciliation with indigenous people, refugees, gay rights etc.

Keep your fingers crossed for us - I'm to scared of being dissapointed again to let myself beleive they're on the way out.

Take heart. Given the tidal wave of liberal (our liberal) victories around the world, most recently in India, there may be hope.


:thumbsup:

This exchange just reminded me of 1997. I was working in Sydney for a brief period and just when I arrived there was a lot of anti-Indian sentiment. (I'm of Indian origin).

I really thought we were far to busy hating South East Asian folk at the time (before moving on more recently to Ay-rabs) all the while keeping a healthy disdain for our indigenous population brewing.

Gawd - I'm probably gonna get sued by the Australian Tourism Board for my comments on DU!

I wonder whether these Apache crew members sleep tight at night...
:mad:

SEND THIS VIDEO TO DAMN NEAR EVERYONE YOU KNOW

SEND THIS VIDEO TO DAMN NEAR EVERYONE YOU KNOW

SEND THIS VIDEO TO DAMN NEAR EVERYONE YOU KNOW

i've just sent it to the local periodical. it's been sent to their website, as well. i want to see this video on national television. it needs to be out there . . ..

At my place of work I get to hear comments like, 'Dude! Did you see that Apache video, they ripped those guys apart!'.

Usually this is followed by some glorious praising of the greatness of our military and its equipment.

As David Cross said, "Do we live in a nation of 6 year olds?...YES!"

TWL

Yes, if you have to go to war it should be about winning. But even the DOD says body count isn't the measure of success.

If they were trying to engage in armed combat, we should meet them as equals. We're in THEIR country for god's sake! How right is it to kill people when you have such a HUGE advantage over them?

These guys were not farmers, they were insurgents/freedom fighters. They had RPGs and the pilot and crew acted accordingly. They don't show you the whole action on this clip, it is deliberately edited to make it look like senseless slaughter.

They were just innocent farmers.

There is nothing in Iraq but innocent farmers.

American soldiers are nothing but bloodthirsty murderers.

Would you PLEASE pay attention?

How cooperative of them. Even if they were "combatants," and there is NO evidence that they were, killing the clearly unarmed and wounded man is a war crime. Using .30 mm cannons on humans is a war crime. Face it. It's being done in our names.

I've seen the whole footage, and they do indeed have an RPG next to the tractor. The shortened segment does not tell the whole story.

and there is no way you can say "they do indeed have an RPG next to the tractor" all anyone could state from watching the video is that SOMETHING is next to the tractor

The film is way longer than this and starts with the Apache following the pickup truck down the road. Then dude gets out with the RPG and tries to hide it in the field. These guys were planting roadside bombs and they had RPGs. You don't see it in this clip but there are secondary explosions when they hit the big truck. Hey listen, this war is wrong and I'm totally against it but I can't fault the pilot and crew for taking the action they did. Should they have waited to be shot down? If you are going to be pissed at anyone for this be pissed at the assholes who started this war, not the soldier doing his job. How many farmers do their farming in the middle of the night?

you see a person carrying something - if YOU could see an RPG in this vid you did better than the guys IN the helicopter because they ummed and ahhed a bit - if THEY didn't know what was being carried YOU sure as hell didnt.

There are many farm chores to be done at night actually - but I'm nt gonna argue they WERE farmers just that neither the guys in teh helicopter knew otherwise and neither do you.

If there WERE nasty "insurgents" (what are they insurgents against) then I'm afraid blowing someone up when they're surendering = CRIME, blowing up a wounded man = CRIME, shooting missiles from copters at people = CRIME

And you can see these things in the original. But whatever, All American soldiers are barbarian murderers who just kill everyone for sport and never have had to defend themselves. :eyes:

I too have seen the longer version and you do not see any weapons - even the soldiers themselves didn't know what they were looking at and SAID SO.

Who the hell said that all American soldiers are barbarians? I never even said THESE soldiers were - just that THEY didn't know what they were looking at and shot first - then shot a man surrendering and then a wounded (probably dying) man.

and bloodthirsty ones at that; but I was only trying to fit in.

by suggesting we're looney lefties, all ready to instantly and without thought condemn any and all behaviour by US soldiers without a valid reason: can I suggest a trip to Free Republic - you wont stand out there with that logic

You did.

Episode of introspection?

See post #81 for a view into the underlying feelings in this thread; at least LouC had the balls to come right out and say it.

and that's it we're all "anti-american" :eyes:

but yes.

...to the truth than you'd admit.

...with having weapons for self-defense with you if your country has been violently invaded and the lives of you and your family are in constant danger of being abused, tortured, maimed, or killed by American rednecks in American uniforms.

several news agencies have noted that many Iraqis own quite an arsenal without being insurgents or terrorists. Large collections of various weapons are seen as "macho" without necessarily being used in an insurgency

If you have the stomach to watch the original video (i do not desire to do so again)..its clear that this Apache is a LONG WAY away.

The initial attack missed, yet the men in the video register no response. The Apache was far enough away, the cannon fire was not able to be heard (loud enough to register concern).

Farmers, terrorist, or Santa and his elves himself...these guys had no idea what the hell hit them. One minute they are talking, the next they are exploding.

Also, its possible that the RPG was expended.

I'd like to view that "whole footage."

the wounded guy was within the Geneva Convention? Also where can we see the whole clip?

There's some unbelievable daylight video of GIs using wounded men for target practice.

It was 3-6 weeks ago.

Maybe they have a story online or transcripts. They took some really shocking looking video around to different experts and they all said the soldiers did the right thing because the troops are taught that you can't be sure someone's harmless if they're still moving, seemingly including twitching and writhing.

That troubled me because even if a wounded man offers no threat to the troops they are supposed to assume he will crawl off, recover and rejoin the fight later, so they still shoot him. For instance, in the main clip guys were taking turns trying to finish off a wounded man on the ground 70-100 yards away and one expert cited the long distance as a factor FOR shooting. I really didn't get that part.

let me know and i will upload it.

Jay

Jay

and the "yeehaws" that went along with it are absolutely neccesary even if they were "terrorists"?

BTW - in terms of international law it actually doesn't matter whether these guys weer holding RPG/WMD's or a rake - this action was still ILLEGAL and the guys in the chopper are still criminals

If indeed these guys had weapons and were firing at the helicopter, what exactly is illegal about firing back at them?

why didn't they shoot at the helicopter?

One of them was removing the cover off of the RPG when he got shot. It looked like he was going to try to shoot at the helicopter.

it would *seem* to be suicide to shoot at a helicopter and reveal your position, because the overwhelming psychological impression is that you cannot be seen.

Even if it's daytime you are not certain the chopper will open fire until it does, but if you fire at it it definately will, so the 'right answer' is still to hope it goes away. Once the shooting starts, of course, all bets are off as to what someone would do other than run and/or hide.

Do we know this is a helicopter, BTW? Just asking. I've seen A-10 footage that is as steady and hovering looking as this footage, and I think the A-10 has the same chain gun.

can accurately dust targets from 3-4 kilometers away. It's likely they never knew where the fusillade came from.

equipment. Plus, the only visible weapon is an rpg7 which would be well out of range. Hard to shoot what you can't see.

Posted by Djinn:

"BTW - in terms of international law it actually doesn't matter whether these guys weer holding RPG/WMD's or a rake - this action was still ILLEGAL and the guys in the chopper are still criminals"


I'm not sure I follow. Could you explain what makes it illegal? I am not quite up on that aspect of international law.

Mr.Rob (first name Jim??)

I have no intention of spoon feeding you info you wont read anyway but a few words that may help you search for yourself if you REALLY do want the info..."civilians" "missile" "wounded" "surrender" - they should atleast get you started

This is all on top of the fact that the US persence in Iraq is ALL illegal but I don't want to confuse you with too many complexities - I'm sure breathing and typing are taxing you enough as it is

First, it is a violation of the Geneva Conventions (or maybe the rules of land warfare-- I'm not going to search for the relevant articles now) to kill an unarmed, wounded combatant who is no longer a threat. The guy crawling out from under the truck qualifies, IMO. Of course, ALL bets are off if the Iraqis were indeed non-combatant civilians-- killing any of them without provocation is a war crime in that case.

Second, as I understand it, using 30 mm cannon fire against unarmored people violates international treaties. This is specifically for use against armored targets.

First, it is a violation of the Geneva Conventions (or maybe the rules of land warfare-- I'm not going to search for the relevant articles now) to kill an unarmed, wounded combatant who is no longer a threat. The guy crawling out from under the truck qualifies, IMO. Of course, ALL bets are off if the Iraqis were indeed non-combatant civilians-- killing any of them without provocation is a war crime in that case.

Second, as I understand it, using 30 mm cannon fire against unarmored people violates international treaties. This is specifically for use against armored targets.

1. The Geneva convention does not require any side to ACCEPT a surrender, believe it or not.

2. This is incorrect.

Yes. The insurgency has invented a horrible weapon. They drive tractors around in arrable land and WAIT until Apache gunships come by. When they do, the driver launches the RPG while maintaining a nice straight plow line.

Other techniques we saw was:

* walk the OTHER way sneak RPG attack. He had the RPG hidden in his pants. A few more steps an the Apache gunship would have been toast.

* Wave a white flag while pounding the ground. This effectively conceals the RPG hidden under the mans shirt. He was targeting the ship. Another second and the Apache would have been destroyed.

* Hide UNDER a truck. Yes the whole truck was an RPG waiting to happen. And the wounded flailing was another attempt to reach the BURIED MEGA RPG INSTALLATION implanted by the tractor of mass destruction.

Of course, US forces made sure to finish off the wounded man. They already knew EVERYTHING about him. Therefore, there was no need to take him prisoner and interrogate him. They of course knew who all his insurgent buddies were as well. Nothing could have been learned by keeping the man alive. Except maybe, that he was just a farmer who would tell this story to all his aqcuaintences.

want America in Iraq killing people. The Iranians and Iraqis don't get along at all, even if they are all muslim. That's why the poster above is all for what happened to these farmers.

Meaning no disrespect, but that is an awfully broad brush (unless you know the poster well enough to state this with assurance).

And I'm sure he represent most Iranian here. Hell, how many years did the Iraq/Iran war last? I wouldn't be the farm if they are bussom buddies instantly.

based on what one person says - bad idea.

Most Iranians and Iraqi's are much the same as other people from other nations when it comes to war - they realise it has more to do with the leaders than any of the people.

There are many Iraqi refugees in Iran so it's not quite as cut and dried as you think.

Do all Brit's hate all Germans? how long did that war go for?

Freepers.

May I ask you a question? Why don't you think your shit stink?:)

Smells like roses.

I was always against the war from the beginning, as I never bought the misinformation spewed by the administration. HOWEVER, when I saw the Iraqi army and Iraqi fighters completely annihalated by the American Army my tear ducts were completely dry.

That was the same Iraqi army that raped, killed, mutilated and humiliated Iranians as they crossed into our borders. The once flourishing industrial city of Khorramshahr is just starting to be recovered from the destruction of the sick iraqis. They couldn't even accept true defeat, as they sprayed us with chemical gas as we launched a counterinvasion towards baghdad.

My tear ducts are completely dry. Unfortunately, I rejoice when I see the Iraqi army completely destroyed.

P.S. I don't know what the hell happened in that video link, as there is no context behind the video. That's all I'm saying.

Say, would this apply to you?:

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

this has been on Freerepublic.com.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1055088/posts

The freepers have been creaming their Klan sheets over this
for several months.

Our (the US) brutality is astounding and we have killed a LOT of innocent people in Iraq. There are truly shocking videos out there. Even American news channels have shown many videos of Iraqi families being blown to hell at checkpoints and on the highway by soldiers close enough to see their faces. During the invasion whenever we crossed a bridge we first killed every single person we could locate on the other side of the bridge. CNN had outstanding video of an old man with a limp walking with a cane being dropped in broad daylight by soldiers that could see him very well. That same incident included a family abandon their car when it became a target and trying to escape on foot, but we kept trying to shoot them so they ran back to hide behind the car. So we brought in a fucking TANK and blew them up.

There's a lot of clear-cut atrocity videos but this video is not one of them. This video doesn't show us innocent people being killed or guilty people being killed. It shows three people being killed about whom we know absolutely nothing.

The claim that they are farmers because they are on a farm is absurd. Out of curiosity, is this infra-red or other night vision technology... if so, who farms at night?

And we see "a white flag" being "waved", except it's fake. Nobody "waved" a goddamn thing--the smart-ass behind this video presentation looped the video. It's a trick... an intentional effort to deceive you, the viewer. Really, is everyone's vision so bad they cannot see that?

When a video presentation contains an overt effort to deceive the viewer does that suggest anything about the overall production?

Be careful though, you don't want to get in the way of the "American Atrocity Steamroller" that's rolling through this thread.

It's better not to ask questions or point out obfuscation, unless of course it's to debunk something that supports Bush or the war.....you know, like the Berg beheading.

that there are MOUNTAINS of damning evidence out there, yet whenever I see an excitable 'War Crimes!!!!!!!!!!' post it's usually something fake. It's almost as if people enjoy being fooled... kind of a PT Barnum thing.

America look bad.

I recall a certain incident in Waco Texas in which our government did much worse to our own people than anything I've seen so far in Abu Ghraib, and somehow I doubt very many people here were screaming 'War Crimes' or 'Impeachment' then....seems that when "atrocities" happen on a Democrats' watch they are somehow less atrocious then when Republicans are in charge.

I must admit though, that I firmly believe that when the WTC were attacked in '93 it was a case of MIHOP....it's soooo obvious.

look at rest of iraq pal to see a WHOLE LOT WORSE thank waco, please.

yall two sound like rush and his ilk with this nonsense...

"I recall a certain incident in Waco Texas in which our government did much worse to our own people than anything I've seen so far in Abu Ghraib..."

i bet yall two can provide links to the official theory that back up your faith in it since i would love to see what yall two have that has convinced you it wasn't LIHOP at LEAST.

tia :hi:

peace

I doubt that I can find any evidence that the 1993 WTC attack was LIHOP/MIHOP, because believe it or not 'actual' terrorists did it.

Kinda like 9/11......oops, did I say that?

nevermind

peace

I haven't said anything about Waco (I consider it a massive murder suicide)

If I'm one of the 'two' that sound like Rush to you then I'll put this in words you may understand: Go fuck yourself you silly solipsistic infant. LIHOP... what a child you are!

I've about had it with dimwitted pukes carrying on about this war like they were the first person to notice war is bad and impugning the motives of people who have honorably opposed wars for 30+ years because they don't happen to buy into every moronic morsel of your thought process.

i am talk'n bout the HERE and NOW and point out yall two echoing the right... then yall two respond with even MORE attacks yet i'm the 'silly solipsistic infant' :crazy:

if you care to discuss ANY of the aspects of 911 fine. just be specific and provide plenty of links as is the norm.

tia :hi:

peace

If you think my own opinion is an 'echo of the right', then I guess you're entitled to your opinion, but it wouldn't be particularly accurate to say that I attacked you in any way.

"I see it as grasping for ANYTHING that makes America look bad."

now where do i constantly hear this stupid 'argument' put forth?

anyways, lets just say thats how you come off, when reading YOUR own words.

peace

but if you insist that it's from Rush, then you must listen to him often enough to know.....I don't.

As far as grasping for things that make America look bad, just look around at the threads lately (and I say lately because it seems to be getting much, much worse), with a somewhat objective eye and it isn't hard to see that quite a few people here do indeed dislike America and love blathering on and on about how horrible it is.

Used to be that dislike of Bush and Republican policy was the order of the day, but there's been a real shift in tone of late, and it's sad to see.

medium and you will know what i mean by RUSH and his ILK's IGNORANT ARGUMENTS.

just because folks refuse to ignore our OWN atrocities doesn't make them american haters or whatever yall might call them/us i think they LOVE AMERICA and can't stand it when it/we FUCK UP and are determined to correct our course whenever we do.

and i have been here a loong time and can tell you this has ALWAYS been the tone of DU SKEPTICAL the way most of us like it.

peace

but you're kidding yourself if you think that it's just Democrats being skeptical.

of ATF personnel beating and raping the inhabitants of the compound in Waco.

and went directly to burning them alive.

so there's a couple of blokes in a field holding something - THAT justifies blowing them up.

But a bunch of religious fundie cult freaks with an Armageddon fantasy holed up with a shitload weapons and taking pot shots at federal agents DOESN'T warrant a response.

Interesting - and what's with the quotations around torture - or do you think those men were just asked NICELY by the prison guards to get naked and masturbate, that the man WANTED a chemical light inserted up his arse and Iraqi women just couldn't get enough of those hunky US MP's????????

killing those 'religious fundie cult freaks' is no problem, but killing three people who were perceived as a direct threat to the soldiers in the video is cold blooded murder.

Thankfully you're not in charge of our military....you'd probably just aim your gunships at 'religious freaks'....or Americans.

I was amazed at that dichotomy in YOUR mind, as for the comment that I'd probably just kill Americans - to use a fondly used expression here GO FUCK YOURSELF

than of innocent Iraqis, but who's counting.

Either way, fucking myself would be pretty difficult, but I'll give it a try if you insist.

:hi:

put whatever spin on it you like - but there's something to be said about courting danger.

I don't like it when my state police shoot people (which they have a tendency to do) but then again waive a sword at a Victorian copper and you may well end up arguing with a bullet...same goes for those in Waco.

I guess having the temerity to BE an Iraqi in Iraq is also pretty much just asking for it though

Amazing that I forgot about that.

RC

but come to think of it, you're right; burning innocent people alive isn't nearly as bad as 'greasing' them down with AC-130s (especially the women and children).

yet you come off as very confident in your ignorance :shrug:

peace

what the fuck are you talking about?

To what ignorance are you referring?

Ferocious attack

...

US marines moved in to "pacify" Falluja on 5 April

An AC-130 gunship aircraft fired cannon rounds at suspected militant positions and arms depots.

It let off 20 to 25 rounds at a time with "explosions on the ground sending showers of sparks and flames into the night sky", our correspondent reported from the scene.

"I can hear more than 10 explosions a minute," an unidentified witness told Reuters news agency.

"Fires are lighting the night sky. The earth is shaking under my feet."

more...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3664991.stm

that ignorance...
unless yall were being facetious and i missed it :shrug:

peace

and I was just joining in the fun.

My post had nothing to do with Iraq.

I fail to see the ignorance, but I appreciate your effort just the same.

That said, I fail to see what relevance Waco has to this discussion. the fact is that many of us here would have loved to see Janet Reno strung up for what she ordered. Interestingly enough, she probably didn't even order it, because she thought giving a speech was more important than doing the job she was paid to do....and that's even worse.

An interesting aside. Video footage does reveal that the people at Waco WERE being fired on with an automatic weapon from a helicopter. During the hearing the FBI got caught trying to lie about it and obfuscate the facts by parsing words.

RC

is a term of endearment the cavalry boys in Vietnam used to describe the puddle of goo that remained after hitting a human being with a 30mm chain gun.

One of my buddys...an Army line-man used to be transported to and from his jobs by a chopper crew that recreated on the way by greasing "gooks" working in their rice paddys.

My cousin worked on the choppers they used to drop agent orange on Vietnman with....he's dying of all sorts of wierd diseases and the military fought him for 30 years before they begrudgingly paid for treatment of the problems their poison caused him. I bet the Vietnamese that were regularily doused with the shit ain't gettin much help though. Good to know we don't engage in chemical warfare! Parish the thought....only that nasty fucker Saddam has done shit like that!

RC

WAR CRIMES

A Report on United States War Crimes Against Iraq to the Commission of Inquiry for the International War Crimes Tribunal

by Ramsey Clark and Others




Incinerated body of an Iraqi soldier on the "Highway of Death," a name the press has given to the road from Mutlaa, Kuwait, to Basra, Iraq. U.S. planes immobilized the convoy by disabling vehicles at its front and rear, then bombing and straffing the resulting traffic jam for hours. More than 2,000 vehicles and tens of thousands of charred and dismembered bodies littered the sixty miles of highway. The clear rapid incineration of the human being suggests the use of napalm, phosphorus, or other incindiary bombs. These are anti-personnel weapons outlawed under the 1977 Geneva Protocols. This massive attack occurred after Saddam Hussein announced a complete troop withdrawl from Kuwait in compliance with UN Resolution 660. Such a massacre of withdrawing Iraqi soldiers violates the Geneva Convention of 1949, common article 3, which outlaws the killing of soldiers who "are out of combat." There are, in addition, strong indications that many of those killed were Palestinian and Kuwaiti civilians trying to escape the impending seige of Kuwait City and the return of Kuwaiti armed forces. No attempt was made by U.S. military command to distinguish between military personnel and civilians on the "highway of death." The whole intent of international law with regard to war is to prevent just this sort of indescriminate and excessive use of force.
(Photo Credit: © 1991 Kenneth Jarecke / Contact Press Images)

"It has never happened in history that a nation that has won a war has been held accountable for atrocities committed in preparing for and waging that war. We intend to make this one different. What took place was the use of technological material to destroy a defenseless country. From 125,000 to 300,000 people were killed... We recognize our role in history is to bring the transgressors to justice." Ramsey Clark

Ramsey Clark served as U.S. Attorney General in the administration of Lyndon Johnson. He is the convener of the Commission of Inquiry and a human rights lawyer of world-wide respect. This report was given in New York, May 11, 1991.

more...
http://deoxy.org/wc/warcrim2.htm

peace

and images are much more powerful than words at times like these besides it hardly matters a lick whether this is 'real' or not it gets the msg accross.

just ask madison ave what really matters.

peace

Thanks for dropping by our time-frame Billy!

I have seen the original video (along with the juvenile commentary by the helicopter crew). This pop-up was manipulated to convey the message that was intended but it does not convey the truth. As you said, there are (unfortunately) many examples of American brutality against the Iraqi people, but this video is not an example. Why do we bemoan the dead US soldiers in Iraq if we are not willing to allow that many of them have died at the hands of the very types of people who were killed in this video?

Granted, it is gruesome and the joy that some seem to get over seeing this video (the same people who rejoice in state executions) is repulsive. But these were not innocent "farmers" and "surrendering boys". These were people who were intent on killing American soldiers. And whether we agree or disagree that we should be over there (I disagree, hate this war), I want all of them to come home alive.

Unfortunately, people see what they want to see and believe what they want to believe. It makes being a member of DU challenging at times. Hopefully the ones who want to believe the lies of this video won't be allowed to shout down those of us who can see the world in other than black and white.

It's fairly common practice actually...especially when it's hotter than shit outside...or you are working against the clock.

As far as the waving of a flag is concerned...I have the original un-fucked with video on my hard drive...and he is waiving something.

RC

If he's clearly waving somwthing in the original they shouldn't have doctored the sequence, because in the presentation in question they do the thing from the old cat-chow ads... back-forward-back-forward loop.

What kind of light do you use to farm at night? Is moonlight enough? I don't know if the tractor's lights are on or not in the pix.

Since you are obviously a reasonable person, are other representations of the uncut video throughout this thread correct? (In your opinion)

As I recall the story....there had been an ambush someplace close to this location..earlier that evening. They brought the gunships out flew around and these were the first people they found. They killed 'em.

Artistic license has been taken with this video. The embellishments are not an accurate depiction of what occurred.

If you want to see the original right click the explosion and save to disk :nuke:

Notice at the beginning of the video the "rounds" counter in the lower right hand corner....they have already fired 200 rounds at someone before this attack. The movie is filmed with infrared. Because it was filmed in infrared we can see that the tractor is running. The smoke stack is white as is the engine bay. The man on the tractor was plowing his field. You can see the furrows and you can see where he stopped. Two other men get out of a pickup truck, frame right(which may or may not have just driven up) and are fired upon....that is why the one is "skipping"....he is dodging bullets as he runs to the man on the tractor. The other pickup truck passenger follows behind and stops in front of the farm truck when the firing starts. The "kiss" given to the tractor driver by the first pickup passenger is an attempt to communicate over the noise of the Apache, is my guess. The man on the tractor gets off after looking back at the Apache and slowly starts walking back in the direction of the farm truck. The man who ran to the tractor..moves to the opposite side of the tractor and appears to be looking for something slightly before the tractor driver is vaporized. After waving the material one time or unwrapping something in haste he is vaporized....at this point the pickup passenger who stayed behind hides under the farm truck....the ac130 fires on the truck injuring the man underneath. He is injured and attempts to crawl away...the Apache crew acknowledges that he is injured and vaporizes him. It should be noted that the vaporization of these three people required what appears to be 89 or 99 rounds....which begs the question...what were the other 200 rounds fired at.

Frankly, it looks to me as though the AC130 crew murdered a farmer and possibly his two sons...or workers.

If you'd like to see another fun video of our boys in action, right click on the smiley face and save to disk :)


RC

summer the temperatures are routinely triple digits. Everybody that does any kind of physical labor likes to do it in the early evening.

"Only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the noonday sun." Rudyard Kipling

...heard Round the world"

Infra red shows heat emissions from the soil very recently turned up by the disc-harrow being pulled by the tractor. Thus, they were farming at night... and yes...farmers around the world farm after dark... since the invention of headlights on tractors in about 1935!

Or maybe these three guys are just the three most inept, bumbling terrorists in Iraq... While setting out a IED--out in the middle of nowhere-- they decieded they would kill time by running an 18 foot disc harrow with a 100 HP tractor... yeah...that's the ticket! Then, when Jr runs out to to spell Dad on the tractor, he mindlessly forgets to bring along the RPGs and Kluichnikovs... D'ooh!

By killing these three farmers, these roto-wing cowboy-cowards have created 300 new recruits for Bin Ladin.

want proof. Sorry to be so suspicious but you know the whole WMD thing

Have fun! Like the guy in the second movie says...It's like awesome!!

RC

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/video1/aztlan_thief_host_your_own_video_iraqiwar.wmv

RC

I hate us, I hate the USA we are killers.

:puke:

hiding their RPG and other weapons

Seriously, the full video shows these "poor farmers", farming in the middle of the night, hiding what appears to be weapons including an RPG tube.

Nonetheless, these "farmers" would totally outgunned and had zip of a chance, and we can certainly discuss the legality of the invasion itself, not to mention using depleted uranium rounds at people....

But lets not kid ourselves into believe they are farmers, the full video strongly suggests that they were enemy returning from an attack.

(and no I don't have the full video handy. I saw it a few months ago and didnt record the link I regret watching it even a 2nd time, But feel free to google it yourself)

Because most of what you claim is already dealth with and debunked - the full video DOES NOT SHOW WEAPONS - it does include commentary from the people IN the helicopter who are not even sure themselves what's going on

I didnt read through it before posting.

I maintain the it appears to be weapons, but there is certainly reasonable doubt.

The video, while shocking fails far short of being able to convict the shooters of a war crime.

They vaporized a civilian farmer guilty of nothing more than getting off his tractor and walking toward his truck. They vaporized another civilian who was seriously injured and no threat to anyone at all...whether or not he was an "insurgent" is irrelevant. It is against the Geneva convention to intentionally kill civilians. It is against the Geneva convention to kill an injured soldier/civilian who presents no further threat.

RC

and there ain't no one hiding anything. It and another fun video are linked in post 113.

RC

As I mentioned, I don't care to watch it again.

Either way, it demonstrates the cruelty of this war, and the domination that we have over these people.

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/01/284086.html

Go to this web site and check out the whole video. make sure to download the 12m one not the 4.6m. The guy stops his car gets out looks around then gets an rpg out of the back seat then throws it in the field. Why, I don't know, but they are acting way to goofy to be just poor little farmers. Also listening to the apache guys they sounded professional to me.

The bubble video is crappy propaganda, i especially like how they make the guy look like he is waving a flag. When it looks to me as if he is ripping the cloth cover off the rpg, that is until he dies.

The RPG was in the middle of the field....not on the friggin tractor. How the hell do you know it's an RPG? I find it somewhat odd that you suggest downloading the video from the page you did...but failed to read anything which was contained below. Very odd. What was the reason that they killed an unarmed farmer walking away from his tractor? What was the reason that they killed an injured man who was of no threat to anyone. That's murder...any way you slice it.

RC

the first place i found the video, i did read what was below and i don't agree with it. Watch the video carefully. he runs out and throws the rpg in the field then goes back. other guy goes out toward it but stops and comes back. Then tractor which is moving almost runs over what they through in the field but stops, and guy gets off tractor. then they all die. Watch where they throw it compared to the trucks and then where the tractor stops. It sure looks rpg shaped to me and you can tell they were up to no good.

also this is war, the apache was probably a mile away, not exactly in the best place to take prisoners. wounded men can live to fight another day and kill our troops. the same thing has happened in every war ever fought a million time over and always will.

You've fought in allot of wars have you?

RC
USN VET

Just one and that was enough for me, and what does that have to do with anything. You don't have to be a vet to make sense of the video. Besides The u.s. killed enough civilians at other times that you don't try to make this one also. The real morans are the ones who made the video, it's edited to be total propaganda

...over this so-called 'war'. This is not like any other war where troops were fighting to defend our country or another nation. It has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the invasion/occupation of Iraq was/is based on lies. That is...there never WAS a reason for Americans to be in Iraq...killing innocents or those trying to defend THEIR country.

- It's simply amazing that so many Americans seem to have the attitude that 'since we're there'...we have the 'right' to kill anyone that we SUSPECT to be 'terrorists' or resisting the occupation.

- Comparing this illegal war to 'any other war' is silly. This isn't WWII where we were fighting a uniformed military. Bush* has made ALL Iraqis the enemy. Many Iraqis are killed simply because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

- Bush's* illegal shock and awe, invasion and occuption shows why war should ALWAYS be a last resort. Iraq was no threat to the US or anyone else. Bush* waged unprovoked, aggressive war on a relatively defenseless country. These are war crimes. Ask those who tried the Nazis at Nuremberg.

to go into whether or not this war was justified because I'm sure we would disagree with that too.

Saying Bush has made ALL Iraqis the enemy is dumb, but i agree that many Iraqis are killed simply because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is not one of those times and that's all I was saying. a 31/2 min video was edited to one min just to make it look bad. This apache crew did nothing wrong.

"this is war" like that excuses anything. No it's not war....it's an INVASION...a fucking turkey shoot brought on by this insane criminal administration that is squatting in the peoples WH.

you need to chill. it's way too early to be so pissed.

second last time I checked an invasion was a type of war. Regardless of whether we should be over there. A war is being fought and U.S. soldiers have to kill the badguys.

"it's way too early" and that "invasion is a type of war" It's the discerning of who exactly are the "bad guys" that this thread is about. Since the red cross estimated that 70-90 percent of the prisoners held at Abu-Garaib were held without reason I'm not so sure we're doing such a bangup job on that.

this war has been handled poorly.

...with their heads blown off?

- You don't seem to understand the DANGER and criminality of an unprovoked invasion of another country that posed no threat. You want us to eat the fruit of the poisoned tree and pretend it tastes great.

- Study history. See why the Nazis were put on trial. They were tried...not only for war crimes...but for waging aggressive war based on fabrications.

a little older than 8 years old. Also I've done my share of studying history. What you see as "DANGER and criminality of an unprovoked invasion of another country that posed no threat" I see as perfectly justified. Yes I know I'm in the minority here and will probably be banned for saying so.

The Bush administration has done little right, but one thing they have done right is wage an aggressive war on terrorism. I think three years with no attacks in the us is a good thing. I think a large reason why there have been no attacks is because look what they got after 9/11. many of them hate us because of our presence in the middle east, and obviously 9/11 didn't help there cause.

regardless of what people say are the reasons we attacked, Saddam was in violation of the ceasefire agreements and u.n. resolutions instituded after the gulf war. Saddam for whatever reason, whether he had them or not, failed to account for the WMD's he had at one time. That is not a chance we could take post 9/11. And Terrorist were training in Iraq as we now know(ie salmon pak) Only choice is show of force. After months of debating with the U.N. only a few nations show support for military action, so bush goes forward with attack.

I agree though that the war in Iraq in not going perfect but it's easy to monday morning quarterback from my computer chair.

There is an EXCELLENT reason to call in a blackhawk and take prisoners. You can INTEROGATE them.

Mind you, if they DID actually have RPGs, they would probably be GUILTY of something.

Do you see the difference. You can round up random people and torture them

... OR ...

You could actually endeavour to capture people engaging in suspicious activities and THEN grill them for information since they can probably PROVIDE it.


Dead men tell no tales. And I'm interested to know whether the Army followed up on this engagement to see if those ACTUALLY WERE RPGs. Did they care????? Shouldn't they??????

those are good questions that we will probably never know the answers to.

Far as I know, that (old) film is out of Afghanistan. There is no indication of WHAT they are.

Infra red shows heat emissions from the soil very recently turned up by the disc-harrow being pulled by the tractor. Thus, they were farming at night... and yes...farmers around the world farm after dark... since the invention of headlights on tractors in about 1935!

Or maybe these three guys are just the three most inept, bumbling terrorists in Iraq... While setting out a IED--out in the middle of nowhere-- they decided they would kill time by running an 18 foot disc harrow with a 100 HP tractor... yeah...that's the ticket! Then, when Jr runs out to to spell Dad on the tractor, he mindlessly forgets to bring along the RPGs and Kluichnikovs... D'ooh!

more of my soul...gone.