Question: What country most resembles the Libertarian ideal?

Wondering if any government has really tested their ideals (and survived).

... Haiti.


MDN

A government cannot become libertarian, only a society, since libertrianism is about a reshaping of society that eliminates almost all of the federal government.

which is almost exactly the same as fascists. The want feudalist dictatorships of property owners. They aren't anarchist at all - they want a strong dictatorship of property owners.

honestly.

I don't think that is very libertarian of them.

There is no government there to speak of.

The lack of a strong King and dozens of manors and shires would be the LP's dream come true.

Weak national governments letting the 'natural' order of economics run society.

Yep, it is Somalia. I read some of their stuff and they had a nice article on how Somalia, after we left became a model of a their perfect nonstate. I get a Enews letter from:

www.lewrockwell.com

I believe they have a flat tax rate of around 5%...very high standard of living...pure lassiez faire capitalism. They have ZERO natural resources...it's practically a floating rock but business is absolutely booming there and the people are prospering. Contrast that with countries like africa that are rich in gold/oil and other resources who are dirt poor because they have totalitarian governments. It really is a shocking contrast. I believe the unemployment rate in Hong Kong only around 2%...but they have no government social programs to care for the minority.

It should never be used as an example for other countries, it existed in a unique political and economic landscape.

Somalia is a far more accurate model for libertarianism in action.

Libertarians want basic government services...roads, courts, defense...the essentials to allow people to move and trade freely without fear of being killed. Somalia is nowhere near this...it's an anarchy.

They want basic govt services, they want law & order ...

... but they don't want the govt to have the power the raise the capital to PAY for those services. They don't want the police to be able to prevent them from doing anything they want - even if it's illegal & disorderly.

Libertarians believe that everyone can & should be self-reliant - that plain self-interest will make people live in peace & harmony without govt "interference".

These people are insane because they believe in bullshit.

no fraud, theft, or violence

your right to be free stops at my nose, and my front porch

do anything you want so long as you don't commit those three crimes against other individuals...obviously, local courts and police are absolutely necessary to enforce these basic rights, and the LP doesn't have a problem funding them with a low tax rate. They are mainly concerned with reducing the federal bureacracy, ending the drug war, closing all of our overseas bases, reducing the military, and reducing government to a level they believe the constitution permits.

If my cows pollute your drinking water, what does that fall under? Its not fraud, since I don't keep my cows a secret. Its not theft, since I have a right to use the water on my property as I see fit. And it certainly isn't violence. You may be harmed, sure. But if your rights stop at my property line, what can YOU do about it?

And whose to say what a "low" tax rate is? I don't need the govt - I've got my guns & my 4x4. I don't need the police & I don't need roads. Why should I be forced to pay for something I don't use?

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Libertarians ignore the fact that we exist in this world together. Assets like drinking water, air, are held by everyone in common - just as the need for peace & security are. No man is an island, and no man's property is a kingdom. And the fact is IT'S BETTER and LESS EXPENSIVE to have the govt build & maintain roads, equip a police force, and yes EVEN REGULATE BUSINESSES. It's easier & better to stop the cows from shitting in the well. Its easier & better to stop a manufacturer from producing a dangerous product than allowing on the market in the first place. Its easier & better to have a well-trained standing army based around the world than to build a new one from scratch every time we feel threatened.

The Libertarian ideal is a fantasy - and a dangerous one. Because it give solutions for our collective problems which SOUND good at first - smaller govt, lower taxes, "real" freedom & liberty - but which are ultimately unworkable & unrealistic.

..yeah right.

If you are going to push the philosophy at least be honest about it.

Bush1 also promoted his ally RevMoon in Argentina at the same time. And let's not forget Enron earlier promoted by W in 89.

Menem was caught dealing illegal arms. Don't ALL Bush loyalists deal in the illegal arms trade?

Anyway, I believe they are still trying to straighten out their mess left by Menem, Bush, Moon and Enron.

economic libertarianism is practiced throughout S. America, Africa, Asia, etc in countries with histories of exploitation by the worlds economic powers. The countries on world bank loans etc. They have unregulated markets, little to no social programs, which is libertarian, but at the same time they tend to have very very oppressive internal police forces, that is decidedly un-liberatarian.

One would think that these would be necesary to put down things like strikes and labor unions and movements that would get in the way of unregulated markets, that would advocate for social programs.

I would think, in order to ensure economic liberty, there would be some level of political repression or exclusion operating.

:)

Thanks!

Russia is only a pretend democracy and people get locked up for backing the wrong politicians but it's ironically a pretty good charicature of the overall libertarian agenda insofar as nobody gives a shit what anyone does, half the employment is in dope peddling and whores and the economy is sheer gangsterism. We will see how well it survives.

In practice societies seem unable to maximize both individual liberty *and* economic liberty. The two aims seem inconsistent, though there's no obvious reason why. (Plenty of room for speculation there!)

Every time I have to listen to American moralists and fascists I pine for Europe, but then I have to do business with someone in an EU country again and remember the better aspects of living here. (The level of taxes, duties, customs fees, use fees... it never stops over there.)

We here in the US do as good a job of simultaneously maximizing civil and economic liberties as anyone, which is scary because I feel oppressed every day and this may be as good as it gets!

Being the economic superpower in the world allows us the luxery of liberalism. But niether the US nor Russia are in any way shape or form libertraniasms. The US economy is very much regulated and our government is very large.

Just seems like some former English soldier who fled to the island and named himself "Prince of Sealand". And the idea of giving passports to "anyone who contributes to the island" could never work in any serious Western nation.

If you divide the political landscape into a more complex matrix than left and right it is possible to rationally end up with space for Libertarianism. But even when the Libertarians do just that, as on various Libertarian websites (self censored as this is not a forum to promote Libertarianism), they don't end up in a space that I could describe as progressive democrats.

It's a libertarian paradise.