let's not forget the 30,000 dead who had nothing to do with 9-11

we are at war in two countries, afghanistan and iraq, neither of which had anything whatsoever to do with the attack in new york city.

i know this is a debate often touched on here, but the fact remains, no proof exists that these two countries attacked us. and all the innocents who have died for bushco, must also be memorialized. they died for no other reason than they could easily be killed and robbed.

I'd like to see evidence to the contrary.

that a lot of innocent people died in Afghanistan, and that most of the 9/11 attackers were from Saudi Arabia. The leader of al-qa'ida is a Saudi national. Why not invade Saudi Arabia?

Now that Osama bin Laden is reported to be in Pakistan does that mean Pakistan will be invaded too? I don't think so - Pakistan has nukes. It is not a weak country like Aghanistan and Iraq.

However, the government was, without question, allowing Al-Qaeda to exist in the country and that was unacceptable.

As to the Saudis, because they do give millions in donations and the like to Al-Qaeda, we should start clamping down on them. Perhaps kill a few members of the Royal family just to make the point that we are not pleased with them and the fact that they are scum too makes that option mroe appealing.

The USA should just form a circle and start shooting outward. :crazy:

How about we just stop empowering the Saudi royals with our $$?

That would mean "clamping down" on American's consumptive pratices. What a crazy idea that is. :crazy:


Naaawwww... its easier to "Perhaps kill a few members of the Royal family just to make the point that we are not pleased with them and the fact that they are scum".

We have a god given right to protect the 'murican way. Praise the lord & pass the bullets. That's the America GW Bush "knows".

else. However, the Saudi Royal Family is one of the most evil groups of people we have ever seen and should be punished for what they are doing.

"..the Saudi Royal Family is one of the most evil groups of people we have ever seen and should be punished for what they are doing."



I've seen far worse "evil" in my past travels. Most had a US trademark.

Empowering the Saudi royals is just one.

Our record in the Latin Americas (alone) is widely known as "evil".

Since we don't have a royal family ruling us, we elect our reps, that means that we are to blame. No?

Who will punish us?

I am also well aware of Pinochet, Videla, Montt, and the various other regimes we supported in Latin America that killed a collective hundreds of thousands. To presume to call me ignorant.

The Saudi regime is NOT the Saudi people. Killing them is not the same as killing innocent people and infact would help the 20+ million that live under their tyrannical rule. They imprison and torture thousands upon thousands and have killed God knows how many. Since our government is complicit in supporting this regime, the only form of pennance we can do is helping recitify our mistake.

the pact between President Roosevelt and the Saudi King. The royal family will always be protected in exchange for the uninterrupted flow of oil!

We are paying the price for it now.

We empower the evildoers. That makes us evildoers too.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Yes?

who then send it to Al-Qaeda.

Yes, they allowed Al-Qaeda to exist in their country, but so do others.
We chose Afghanistan to enact our revenge on for 9/11, I believe, because
they were a poor country already ravaged by years of war and unable
to retaliate. The Bush Administration offered up the civilians of Arghanistan as
payback for the dead of 9/11, and most Americans seem to have accepted that.

We had a chance after 9/11 (which, after all, could have been easily prevented
by simply upping airport security or adequately funding INS) to respond to
Terrorism without victimizing the innocent. We chose not to follow that road
because it did not offer the satisfaction of revenge.

that we did, but we were justified in going after the Taliban. The Taliban and Al-Qaeda were joined at the hip. Only one other government remotely matches that and that is Saudi Arabia with its massive funding of Al-Qaeda, but they are getting their just desserts now that they have to fight the cancer that they were spreading around the world.

If its justifiable to kill innocent Afghanis in the name of getting the enemy, then doesn't that validate the terra-ist logic of 9-11?


Who will punish us?

I meant that our war against the Taliban was just fine by me. The slaughter of innocent civillians is never acceptable.

an no one in the US gave a rat's behind about it except a few
feminists disgusted by their criminal mistreatment of women.

How is Saudi Arabia getting their just desserts? It seems to me
they are getting a free pass. We punished the Al-Qaeda sponsoring
country we don't need (Afghanistan) while staying securely in bed
with the one we need--Saudi Arabia.

about the Saudis getting their just desserts. I was just reading about
the attacks this weekend. Very interesting development indeed, given
Saudi support of Terrorism.

I agree completely.:thumbsup:

that after killing so many innocents in Afghanistan and bombing the place into rubble, I read that barbaric warlords have replaced the Taliban, and the poppy fields, destroyed by the Taliban, are healthy again. Not much has changed for the remaining, innocent, people of Afghanistan.

Our new warlords aren't much different than our old warlords in Afghanistan. The punishment of the poorest people of Afghanistan by our hand continues.

Silence is ascent.


Who will punish us?

You are taking my words completely out of context or twisting their meaning and I don't know why you're doing it. How many times do I have to say that going after the Taliban was a good idea, but the slaughter of innocent civillians was horrible?

So perhaps the neocons bombed NYC and DC in an act of self-flagellation.

The Taliban was aided by the US, Saudis, and Pakistani intelligence to bring 'stability' to the region for the PIPLINE.

The Taliban became enemies of the US only when they didn't go for the pipeline deal. So these potential US business partners were eliminated for being uncooperative, not for 9/11 or 'al Queda.'

Just another case of US 'pink slip' genocide wherein the US eliminates former partners like Saddam who stand in the way of maximum profits or have outlived their usefulness.

I fucking hate it when people call the Afghan Invasion a just war and cling to the old notion of a just war as even possible. Even WWII was a very mixed bag of US complicity with the Nazis economically and socially. Not at all a clear case of 'angels vs. devils.'

That's the same logic you are applying and it is bogus.

That's my point. The idea that the US gov't actually represents the rescuing white knight portrayed our national mythology is used as a Virtue Bank Account that is long overdrawn.

And the 'War on Terror' is a Trojan Horse for the USA,Inc. corporate take-over of the planet per the PNAC playbook.

Security at Logan failed so we invade two countries and kill tens of thousands of innocents, inspire thousands more terrorists, and bankrupt our country so the poor and weak die, as usual.

sentimental rhetoric is exactly what is used to cover up the fact that the US was a model for Nazi Germany and a haven for hundreds of Nazis after WWII who continued their horrible tactics in the Cold War.

The myth that the US is Superman Cowboy Jesus is maintained by the propaganda from WWII that the defeat of Hitler proved the international virtue of this now unchecked hyperpower. The current state of mass atrocity is, much to Bush haters without historical perspective, nothing new. Atrocity and terrorism are the main driving social forces of United States history.

The US gov't has been slaughtering weaker and darker skinned people for centuries for economic gain and has a body count far exceeding the Nazis.

Consider:
1) The Native American holocaust that Hitler modeled his Final Solution on.

2) The slavery, murder, torture, lynching, apartheid, segregation, disenfranchisement and eugenic neglect that African Americans still suffer from in the Land of the Free and Home of the Brave.
Here are 80 years worth of souvenir lynching postcards from that very popular American pasttime.
http://www.musarium.com/withoutsanctuary/main.html

3) The many US corporations that profiteered by building Hitler's Third Reich after WWI. Many were unable to fill US orders before WWII at FDR's request because they were busy making money off Hitler.

4) The plight of German Jews was known long before anything was done about it and a ship overloaded with Jewish refugees was turned away from US shores.

5) As former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara has admitted, the US committed the same horrible war crimes against civilians that got Nazis hung at Nuremberg. He has suggested, correctly in my opinion, that had the US lost WWII it would have been charged with the same war crimes. McNamara helped plan the months of firebombing of Japanese cities that killed hundreds of thousands of women and children. The Japanese gov't was desperately trying to arrange a surrender by May 1945. The communication systems within Japan were so devastated by the time of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuclear attacks that it was difficult for the command structure to even know what happened to those cities, never mind 'get the message' of America's terrible new weapon.

6) The Vietnam War might be characterized as a large scale massacre. This is simplistic but the 'destroy to save' concept of ideological combat is easy to see as self-fulfilling delusion at other's expense. The illegal carpet bombing of Cambodia and Laos killed around a million peasants and wrought a havoc that enable the murderous Pol Pot to continue the slaughter of another few million.

7) The US/CIA overthrow of democratically elected leaders and sponsoring of torture and death squads is responsible for the deaths of millions. Read this first hand account by former CIA station chief John Stockwell where he claims in a 1987 speech that CIA actions led to the deaths of up to 6 million people.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4068.htm
John Stockwell is the highest-ranking CIA official ever to leave the agency and go public. He ran a CIA intelligence-gathering post in Vietnam, was the task-force commander of the CIA's secret war in Angola in 1975 and 1976, and was awarded the Medal of Merit before he resigned. Stockwell's book In Search of Enemies, published by W.W. Norton 1978, is an international best-seller.

8) Consider the secret US wars in Central America where death squads filled mass graves and eliminated unionists for US corporations.

9) Consider the support of Saddam Hussein and many other slaughtering dictators. So many of them. Ever heard of the School of the Americas? Or seen the torture manuals that came out of it for Latin American governments to use against their opposition?

10) Consider this year's US coup in Haiti where the Pentagon had dumped 20,000 new M16s for terrorist thugs and then US Marines kidnapped the twice democratically-elected Aristide away to the secluded Central African Republic.

I could go on and on but I think I've made the point that the propaganda does not match reality. It is a tool to affect more atrocity for strictly economic and strategic power purposes.

Ceremony and ritual like the recent WWII commemoration serve to perpetuate war by reinforcing the American myths of heroic killing and dying that send people like Pat Tillman to go to Pipelineistan to 'defend our freedoms.'

We are all suffering from the 'friendly fire' of propaganda.
Don't let the 'few bad apples' theory of American apologetics be denial.
Smiley face bandaids don't cover mass graves.

What this country really needs are Truth and Reconciliation committees like South Africa's to air out the bloodstains. Reparations and contrition are in order.

And more of the nurturing strength of humility instead of the belligerent arrogance of 'greatness.'

More 'God Forgive America' bumper stickers instead of 'God Bless America.'

We killed 600,000 in Cambodia for no reason, we killed three million in Vietnam senselessly, we supported over a dozen dictatorships in Latin America that killed a collective hundreds of thousands, and the list goes on.

However, I maintain that our war in Afghanistan, whether we supported the Taliban or not at any point, was fought for the right reasons and should have been fought earlier. However, it is a horrible thing that our carelessness has killed thousands there and our negelect to help rebuild the country has led to widespread instability. We should be a force for good in the world, and that will never happen under Bushco.

I would say you are correct.
KL

victims on both side of the fence. very sad

someone show the link or news release or report that shows any evidence or proof about anything that happened on 9/11/01 other than 4 jetliners crashed. 3 into buildings and one in a field.

What information, corroborated by two independent sources,
is available to support any claim beyond that.

persoally it seems like everything that is supposed to be " Known " about any details about who, why and how it came to happen always ends at the same doorstep of a house of liars.

Some how it's all a secret and we should just trust the people who have lied about so many things.

If it's true, let them get a jury or a grand jury and let's see them make their case.

For all the talking down of LIHOP and other theories why should the explainations up to now from the people in charge be less plausible
than any of the ones people are coming up with on their own.

And another thing for anyone that is getting ready to post their disgust with LIHOP and how that many people can't keep a secret. Answer this hypothetical question, if someone came up behind you in a dark alley or called you on the phone and assured you that if you didn't keep your mouth shut your family members were going to start having fatal, accidents and medical problems.

It's so easy for many people to think the world is a fair and decent place as long as they have never got caught up in the gears thru no fault of their own.

But I know better than to hold my breath waiting for a memorial to them to be constructed on the Capitol Mall.

But I knew at least as early as September 12 that the bloodthirsty thieves occupying the White House would react to a criminal act as an act of war. For the folks who aren't sure about the difference, say some poor guy breaks into a house in the ritzy part of town. The rich homeowner, outraged that anybody was touching his stuff, calls the cops. Through a little detective work, some tracing of stolen goods, and maybe a little luck, the cops find the guy and arrest him. The put the evidence before a judge, and the guy is convicted and goes to jail.

In Bushworld, the outraged homeowner calls the cops, who then turn one of the poor neighborhoods into a free-fire zone, killing the people who live, work and love there. Then they find out that the guy who broke into the house lives in another poor section of town. Proceed from there.