Two questions about Howard Dean, MD

Since entering the race...
Has he stated whether or not he has performed an abortion?
Stated a position on medical use of marijuana?

I think he might have said that he hadn't. On medical marijuana he said that he'll tell the FDA to research it's medical benefits and be completely willing to take their advice. He said that he expects their to be benefits for AIDS and Cancer patients, but not for Glaucoma.

about Dean and his wife. Of course, Kerry also said he opposed the war in Iraq, yet he voted for it.

Anyhoo, you are better off going to the official Dean website, or the blog, to get answers to your questions:

http://www.deanforamerica.com/

Somehow I never caught the info on his domestic violence record. Never went to that website before either.
Just went there, searched "domestic violence" and discovered the man is way ahead of it. This page:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_record_health_domesticviolence

I will definitely bring this to the attention of everyone I know in the fight against dv, and that's legions of people. Thanks IG.

Believe them over consistently prochoice Kerry who already said that he would ONLY appoint judges who believed in full reproductive rights for women.

..."partial birth" vote was taken. Another missed vote on an issue he purports to care about.

What does "full reproductive rights" mean?

Apparently Senator Kerry does not feel compelled to vote when it is an issue of the government deciding medical issues.

...and someone asked me your first question, they'd need to seek a second opinion...to get their jaw reset.

You know what I'm sayin?

"You know what I'm sayin?"

Get me there. What are you saying?

ed: ...You think he should go violent? Or what?

...if I were a physician, and someone asked me if I'd ever performed an abortion, I'd knock their god damn jaw down their throat. Is that crystal? As a physician, unless it resulted in a malpractice suit, the procedures I perform on my patients would be no ones business. I'm not saying I'm violent, but I'd applaud Dean if he were to react with seething rage and a raise of a couple notches in volume as he responded, "THAT is none of your damned business".

...when one (one liberal M.D.) is running for president, IMO it's an inevitable question.
Senators are asking judicial nominees things that are equally personal. That's politics. :shrug:

...and Bush is whining and bitching about it. Doesn't matter a damned bit. That isn't a question Dean should answer, although I believe he already has. Maybe the GOP can hope for an "11th hour email"...

and maybe how they voted on certain cases. The latter is a matter of public record. If they haven't been thinking _at all_ about such an issue, that in itself is worth considering.

Dr. Dean has told us what he thinks about the abortion issue. Whether he's actually performed them can fall under medical confidentiality.

He's an internist, not an ob/gyn or whatever doctor would perform abortions.

re: medical marijuana. He will submit to FDA for study and then will follow their recommendation. He thinks all medical drugs should be approved in the same way, which is through the FDA.

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

It is a surgical procedure....can be done by a surgeon and OB/GYN...possible ER Med...if life threatening. Dean is Internal Medicine....No abortions.....

I'm asking because a rival or unfriendly press creature could bring this up at the eleventh hour. Given Dean's strongly pro-choice stance, he should have been asked, and answered definitively by now, not wait for someone to ambush him the day before a primary.

Abortion is legal.

Polls indicate about half of the voters are in favor of restrictions on legal abortion. He should get the issue out of the way now. Bringing it up at the last minute would surely be perceived as a "Gotcha" play on the part of the rival or the media, and put Dean in the defensive position.
A tactic favored by LBJ: "Let's make the $%#%&* deny it!" (Johnson was supposed to have said).

medical marijuana
CALLER: Hi Governor Dean. My question to you is, given your medical background and your view on states rights, in your opinion, what should the federal government do about medical marijuana?

DEAN: I don't think they should throw people in jail in California, but I think do think -- here's what I think. I think the process by which medical marijuana is being legalized is the wrong process. I don't like it when politicians interfere in medicine. It's why I am very pro-choice. Because I don't think that is the government's business. So what I will do as president is, I will acquire the FDA within first 12 months to evaluate marijuana and see if it is, in fact, a decent medicine or not. If it is, for what purposes -- for certain purposes, and I suspect it will be for cancer patients and HIV/AIDS patients. And it should be allowed for that. But I suspect it will not be allowed for things like glaucoma. But we have to do the FDA studies. I think marijuana should be treated like every other drug in the process and there shouldn't be a special process which is based on politics to legalize it.
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0308/04/lkl.00.html

Anyway since there seems to be some confusion over Deans stance on medicinal marijuana I thought you folks might to see a post made by the Doc himself in answer to an 18 year olds query on the subject.

"Jeremy(from previous thread). I'm impressed that an 18 year old would spend time on a political blog site. Here is a short summary of my drug policy. 1) drug abuse ought to be treated as a public health problem not a judicial problem. I do not favor legalization because we already have enough problems with the two drugs that are legal, alcohol and tobacco. I also believe that if people are dealing heroin to kids or shooting people that jail is more than appropriate. But if your "crime", is being a substance abuser you belong in rehab, not jail. 2)I will order the FDA to study marijuana to see what medicinal effects it may have. I do not think marijuana should have a process different than every other drug to evaluate whether or not it has medical value. Based on the studies I have read, my guess is that the FDA may find that is useful in patients with HIV/Aids, and various forms of cancer, but not for such things as treating glaucoma, where there are other drugs available, and where the risks outway the benefits. I';m on the way back from New York, so i got to read alot of the blogging that went on today. You folks are terrific!! Thank you for an incredible day, and an incredible quarter. Howard Dean

Posted by howard dean at July 1, 2003 12:42 AM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1784&mesg_id=1784&page=

abortion
Let me tell you a story. As many of you know, I'm a doctor, I'm an internist, and I take care of all ages, pretty much--from five to a hundred and five. And one time I was sitting in my office and it was not unusual for young kids to come and talk to me because I knew the whole family. And one time a young lady came into my office, who was twelve years old, and she thought she might be pregnant. And we did the test, and we did the exam, and she was pregnant. And she didn't know what to do. And after I had talked to her for a while, I came to the conclusion that the likely father of her child was her own father. You explain that to the American people who think that parental notification is a good idea--I will veto parental notification. In Vermont we don't have parental notification bills, but you know what? 85% of all minors that seek an abortion bring their parent with them voluntarily. It is the right thing to do. When I was practicing medicine, if a young lady came to me, and she was pregnant, I'd sit with her in my office and the first thing I'd do is try to convince her she ought to tell her folks, because I knew her folks, I usually treated them too. And sometimes she'd even say, "I don't dare, I don't dare--my father will kill me". In a small percentage of cases--that's true. And that's why we don't want the government telling us how to practice medicine.
http://dean2004.blogspot.com/2003_02_02_dean2004_archive.html#90266826
http://dean2004.blogspot.com/2003_01_19_dean2004_archive.html#90229380

Russert: In terms of who you are, I want to refer you to your comments at the National Abortion Rights Action League in January. And I’ll read it to you and our viewers. “One time a young lady came to office who was 12 years old, and she thought she might be pregnant. And we did the test and we did the exam and she was pregnant. ...And after I had talked to her for awhile, I came to the conclusion that the likely father of her child was her own father. You explain that to the American people who think that parental notification is a good idea. I will veto parental notification.” And then this in USA Today. “Dean told a powerful story but left out a key fact. ...What Dean didn’t say was that he knew the father was not responsible, someone else was convicted.” That’s a pretty big omission.

Dean: What do you mean?

Russert: To say to people at NARAL, “Leave us a suggestion”...

Dean: I don’t think it’s—omission. A pretty big omission, you mean? Yeah.

Russert: Yeah. That’s a pretty—to say that...

Dean: I don’t think it is at all.

Russert: To suggest her father may have been...

Dean: I thought it was. At the time, I thought it was.

Russert: But when you told that story, you knew otherwise.

Dean: That’s right.

Russert: Why didn’t you say that?

Dean: Because it didn’t make any difference. Because the fact that I thought that at the time, that that girl had been made pregnant with her father, under a parental notification law, I would have then been required to report that to her family.

Russert: But parental notification for a 12-year-old—this woman wants an abortion. According to Vermont law and all the laws I’ve checked across the country, a minor needs parental consent to get a driver’s license, a tattoo, see an R-rated movie. When we talked about the death penalty, you talked about the 12- and 15-year-old young girls.

Dean: Right.

Russert: And you said we need a death penalty as a way of dealing with those kinds of situations. Why not tell a parent, notify a parent that their 12-year-old girl is going to have an abortion, or if it’s an abusive situation, go to a judge. Why not?

Dean: Here’s what you do, and here’s what we do. You know, I, as an internist, saw a number of—I took care of all kinds of ranges of people. I saw a number of girls like this, none of whom I suspected what I suspected about this girl. I always tried to get the parents involved. Usually I knew the parents, and I would—the way I would do it is I would bring them in my office and I would say, “Look, the smartest thing to do is call your parents.” “My parents are going to kill me.” I said, “They’re not going to kill you. I know them. They’re going to be very upset. We need to get them involved.” I would never pick up the phone against their will and call them. Sometimes they’d say, “I can’t deal with it. You call them.” Once in a while, when a child says “My parents are going to kill me,” they’re not kidding.

Russert: But you go to a judge in that situation.

Dean: But judicial bypass has been shown not to work. There’s been a lot of studies about it in Massachusetts. It just doesn’t work. You have to rely—look, nobody’s going to take a 12-year-old child and give her an abortion without being—I hope without being sensible, thoughtful and trying to get an adult involved. But to have rigid parental notification laws make it more difficult to practice medicine. This young girl that I talked about turned out—of course, we reported the whole situation—turned out the person who had sexually abused her was convicted. Fine. That’s the right thing to have happened. But suppose we’d had a parental notification law, and suppose under the law I was then obliged to call up her parents and say, “I have this young girl here who, you know, is pregnant” and so forth and so on. What would have been the fate of that girl when she went home?

Russert: If you, in fact, thought it was an abusive situation, you can go to a judge. That’s the point of notification laws.

Dean: Yeah, but you know what?

Russert: And if you have one for tattoos and driver’s license and movies, why not for something as serious as abortion?

Dean: Every doctor knows that you should get a responsible adult involved, and I hope that every doctor fulfills that mission. I’ll give you an example. There have been judges that say, “Under no circumstances will I provide certification that this girl should have an abortion, because I’m against abortion.” Now, there are bad judges in the system, and some of them rule on these cases. Why can’t this be a matter between the doctor, the family and the patient? Why can’t it be like that? Why do we have to have politicians always wanting to practice medicine? Whether a woman can have an abortion, what has to happen...

Russert: But some 12-year-olds don’t want to tell their mom and dad, and you are supporting that.

Dean: No, I’m not. What I’m saying is if the 12-year-old doesn’t want to tell their mom and dad because they’re afraid of their mom and dad is going to hurt them, then you have an obligation to make sure that you talk with that 12-year-old and work—first of all, 12-year-olds don’t get pregnant, usually speaking, unless there’s a real problem. But if the 12-year-old has a legitimate reason, then there has to be a different way to do this.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp

HowardDean.tv (includes Larry King video for download)
http://www.howarddean.tv/

Massive information dump on Gov. Howard Dean
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=43435&mesg_id=43435&page=

..they do not perform OB-GYN services.

A while back it was alleged that some Kerry operatives were in Vermont attempting to ascertain if Dr. Dean had performed abortions. They were unable to do so.

Dr. Dean has simply stated in the past that as an Internist, he would not perform this type of procedure.

He is, however, absolutely pro choice.

and Howard Dean chose to do his at a Planned Parenthood clinic. He says he didn't do any abortions while working there. . . What did he do? Nothing but GYN exams? One reporter called this story "the medical equivalent of not inhaling."

I have a old friend who is an OB GYN. He has never performed the procedure. In fact he won't do them and refers his patients to another doctor.

Just because Dr. Dean worked at a Planned Parenthood clinic does not mean he performed the procedure. Not all PP clinics do the procedure. (But of course, you probably know this but choose to presume something that has no basis in fact, right?

You are simply making an assumption and portraying it as fact. You don't know one way or the other, do you?

BTW, here's the Kerry "investigation" I was referring to:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/duforum/DCForumID22/5692.html

excused from learning to perform abortions for reasons of conscience.

I certainly don't know that Howard Dean did abortions as an intern but I know that he worked at a clinic where they were performed and he is not opposed to doing abortions so, to me, logic suggests he would have learned to do them. Obviously, you disagree, assuming that what he says is the truth, while I assume he could be "misspeaking" again. You trust him, I don't. One of us is right about this abortion question but neither of us can prove our case. We're both making assumptions based on our opinions of Dean.

I'll check out the Kerry story, thanks. I want to know the facts on all the candidates.

>>A while back it was alleged that some Kerry operatives were in Vermont attempting to ascertain if Dr. Dean had performed abortions. They were unable to do so.

How can a candidate, Kerry, that was supposed to be the front-runner just a few short months ago, find himself so behind in the polls (at least from where he wants to be) to resort to such desperate acts so early in the campaign?

And what was Kerry going to do if he did conclude that Dean had performed abortions? Condemn the doctor for what he did and at the same time proclaim his support of the womens right to choose?..I suppose...sort of like voting for the war and critizing it at the same time. Talking out of both sides of his mouth...yet again...

Seeing how abortion is legal, it wouldn't make any difference to me whether he has performed one or not. In fact it would make him seem more pro women's rights. I don't feel the question is out of order. If elected, his voice on things such as prescription coverage, FDA rules, and medical insurance will carry more weight because of his background. It follows that his stance on abortion would carry more weight if he has performed them. I don't think it is out of the realms of possibility that an internist has experience in this area. He likely had rotation in OB/GYN, surgery, and in the ER. Not to be graphic, but during an OB/GYN rotation it would be fairly common to see a patient who had an incomplete miscarriage. Clearly, this is not the same as a planned abortion, but the medical procedure would be the similar, and he could give his opinion on something procedural, outcome of further pregnancies, or physical pain which could be helpful to the pro-choice movement.

On a side note I don't think going to any candidate's website is going to answer the tricky questions for you. Obviously, they are all designed to showcase the candidates most positive attributes

A Dean's list of questions
by Diana West

<snip>

"And speaking of controversial issues, is the Democratic Party ready to unite behind a leader who, as a med student, performed his OB-GYN rotation at a Planned Parenthood clinic? Vermont magazine reported on this in 1998, adding: "While he has never performed an abortion himself, he is strongly pro-choice and certainly understands the medical procedures involved." Which must rate as the medical equivalent of not inhaling."

"The question is why didn't Dr. Dean, at one time on the board of Planned Parenthood, ever perform an abortion as a Planned Parenthood medical resident? And how does Dr. Dean, who is also an opponent of parental notification, explain Vermont's status as one of a handful of states in which abortions may be performed by non-doctors? In 1998 -- the last year the state released data -- 183 girls under the age of 18 had abortions, more than half of them performed by non-doctors: Morality aside, is this even a healthy option?"

<snip>

"Dean's loudest claim to gubernatorial fame is to have provided "free" health care to some large swath of Vermont's 600,000 citizens while simultaneously balancing the state budget. Is this for real? As of 1998, Vermont had the third highest percentage of Medicaid recipients in the Union (while next-door New Hampshire ranked 50). This indicates that Vermont's state-provided health care comes, in large part, courtesy Washington, D.C. How can Dean take credit for state-provided health care when, in fact, the lion's share is funded by federal taxpayers in other states? And how does such a scheme work on the national level? "


"As governor, Dean raided special funds to even out budget shortfalls: Is that balancing the budget? And how can Dean blame President Bush's recent tax cuts for rising property taxes when, for the past decade-plus, he governed a state with one of the highest state and local tax burdens in the nation? Corporations have left Vermont; farm revenues are down; logging and manufacturing jobs have disappeared. Maybe the only sector to thrive in the Dean years is the public sector: why? Indeed, what exactly does the Vermont economy consist of minus federal funds and pork? How well does such a record bode for the national economy? "

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0603/west1.asp



It *is* odd that a med student would choose to intern at a Planned Parenthood clinic and supposedly not perform a single abortion during the internship.

The other paragraphs raise some interesting questions about his fiscal record in Vermont and the same information has been revealed by other reporters. Someone is not telling the truth. Is it the reporters or is it Dean? I don't know but I do find it interesting that he had his records of his terms as governor sealed for ten years. He wanted them sealed for twenty years but was only allowed ten.

If you're running on your record, and frequently talk about "what we did in Vermont" in your speeches, why would you seal that record?

On medical marijuana, I have read that Dean completely opposed it in the past and fought to preserve Vermont's laws prohibiting its use. A month or two ago, though, he came out with a statement that he would have the FDA study marijuana and determine if it is medically beneficial. 

It *is* odd that a med student would choose to intern at a Planned Parenthood clinic and supposedly not perform a single abortion during the internship.

Almost all Planned Parenthood clinics provide other medical services (STD treatment, pre-natal exams, birth control, gyn, etc) in addition to performing abortions. So when you think about it, it is not at all "odd" that a med student could intern at Planned Parenthood and not perform abortions. In fact, it would be odd for a med student who was not planning on an OB/GYN or surgical career to perform abortions, when the other services offered at Planned Parenthood fall into line with what an Internist would expect to see in that practice.

So, apparently Diana West needs to put down the pipe and stop inhaling!

So an intern would get no OB experience there, making an odd choice for an OB-GYN rotation Also, interns are required to perform rotations in all fields, learning everything they can, regardless of their plans for their own specialization. It would seem that an intern in any facility would be required to participate in ~all~ the types of procedures offered there. That's certainly the impression I have from everyone I know who's a physician. And that would include abortions at Planned Parenthood.

Now, I'll agree that someone planning to be an internist would not do a ~residency~in OB-GYN, but everyone does an OB-GYN ~internship~. Dean did his internship at a facility where abortions were performed. I think we know Howard Dean would not have asked to be excused from performing abortions for reasons of conscience because he's stated repeatedly that he's "pro-choice." Thus I maintain that it's ~odd~ that Dean says he didn't do any abortions while interning at Planned Parenthood.

and just smiling, because it's not odd, no matter how you labor (so to speak).

It also looks like your opposition to Dean is getting to be a little too personal, DemBones. A Kucinich supporter attacking Dean on this? I'd expect that sort of attack from the far-right conservative Christian Coilition, not a Kucinich supporter. Are you going to tell us, next, that medical doctors can't be run for President? It sounds like you came close to saying that here: "All medical students have to do an OB-GYN rotation"

I sound like a conservative Christian?

Of course medical doctors can run for president -- why in the world would you suggest that I said they couldn't? All med students do have to do an OB-GYN rotation but so what?

My opposition to Dean is that his record is often misrepresented and I've come to see him as less than honest because of conflicting statements he has made. If he did abortions and is lying about it, the lying is the problem I have with him, not the abortions.

I want my party to nominate a candidate who is 1) honest and worthy of our trust, 2) as progressive as possible. Dean is disappointing me on both counts.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Howz about I dig up all of Kucinich's history of misogynist bonding with a puritanical Gary Bauer mindmeld? A position that he sidestepped to get in the game - and you have the nerve to state:

"I want my party to nominate a candidate who is 1) honest and worthy of our trust, 2) as progressive as possible. Dean is disappointing me on both counts."

If you dispute the facts, present evidence to counter them. As far as I know, the information is accurate. If I didn't believe it was accurate, I wouldn't have posted it.

I do have a fair amount of nerve -- it takes nerve to stand up to the Dean loyalists who attack anyone who posts anything about about Dean that is not adulation -- but I do not sling dirt and resent your saying that I do. Slinging dirt involves spreading rumors that a candidate has been unfaithful to his wife, has a drinking problem, that sort of thing and is usually based on false rumors. I don't spread rumors. I want to talk seriously about the candidates' positions on issues and the candidates' honesty.

As for your comment re: "Kucinich's history of misogynist bonding with a puritanical Gary Bauer mindmeld? A position that he sidestepped to get in the game," I'll point out that you're not exactly being complimentary to Kucinich here! But there is no evidence of Kucinich being a misogynist or puritanical or bonding with Gary Bauer. He has in fact stated that he became increasingly uncomfortable with some other pro-life Congressmen whose concerns were all for the baby, none for the mother.

It's no secret that Kucinich was pro-life for years. He was following a consistent pro-life ethic, opposing war and capital punishment as well as abortion. That's very different from most "pro-life" politicians, who support capital punishment and war as much as they oppose abortion. About two years ago, Kucinich quit voting on abortion measures that came before the House while he was reconsidering his position. I'm not naive enough to think he didn't have a presidential run in mind as partial inspiration for the change but I will point out that he would have gotten much less heat about his position change if he'd made it a year or two ago. That makes me think that he hadn't arrived at his decision until this past February. I'm satisfied with his position but, of more importance to you, I'd think, Kate Michaelman of NARAL believes he is a sincere ally. He spoke on the House floor opposing the partial birth abortion ban, as well as voting against it, and has pledged to only nominate Supreme Court judges that support Roe v. Wade, support abortion remaining legal.

Since this is a Dean thread, I'll end by saying that I wish Dean would liberalize his stand on medical marijuana so I could give him credit for changing a stand! I try to like him, and I do like some of the things he says, but I have some serious concerns about him, too. Don't you want to be sure he's the best candidate before you vote for him?

so I am not going to take the low road to attack him as demonstrated that I could, but feeding rumors about performing abortions is an obvious ploy in an attempt to smear a candidate by trolling for tabloid trash.

staying close to their candidate's anti-choice roots.

on medical marijuana and abortion. I'd be glad to discuss Kucinich's positions on those or any other issues but this thread is about Dean.

1. The most pro-choice of any of the candidates.

As for the MJ questions. They have been answered up-thread.

"most pro-choice" but if he ever performed any abortions, and what his position is on medical marijuana. That's why I posted the information about his doing an OB-GYN rotation in a clinic where abortions were performed.

Like DemBones, I am a staunch Kucinich supporter. But this question as to whether Dean ever performed an abortion is a non-starter.

If he did...so what? If he chose not to..again...so what?

I DO have problems with Dean....this is just not one of them.

Abortion is a legal procedure, as it should be. Dean has not broken any laws regarding abortion. Why this is such a big deal totally escapes me.

I would have expected him to HAVE performed such a procedure during his OB-GYN rotation. In fact, before I read this thread I never even really thought about if he had or hadn't.

Sorry, I just don't get the point of this thread.

We have real issues that need to be debated here, Dean's performing or not of an abortion procedure is not one of those issues.

Things like the Pentagon budget, the Palestine/Isreal situation, the various healthcare proposals. These are what needs discussing.

Just my opinion.

I don't really care if he did or not.

But the media ran with "Gore lied and said he invented the internet".

It's more of a starter than you'd think right off.

abortions and I, too, would have thought he had done them in med school but this information suggests that he denies ever having done one. If he has done them and that is proven, it will hurt him for lying. I don't think a "pro-choice" candidate is going to lose votes over having been trained to do abortions in med school (if he was), simply because his "pro-choice" stand would have already driven those voters away, anyway. So the point is that if he's not been forthcoming on this, he'd be better off to fess up now than later.

There are much bigger issues that need discussing. I wish the Dean supporters would dialogue with us so we could learn more about Dean and they could learn more about Kucinich. Only one candidate can be the nominee and we should be trying to find out who we could support if our preferred candidate is not the nominee. I'm very disenchanted with Dean at present but I'll listen to other views about him.

and some of us know what Kucinich says he stands for (at the moment) and neither like what he says nor trust him any further than a sofa can be thrown.

Do you put pro-choice in quotes when referring to Kucinich's most recent stance, or is that a tactic you reserve for Dean? Just curious.

from the American Heritage dictionary under "dialogue"-VERB: Inflected forms: di·a·logued or di·a·loged, di·a·logu·ing or di·a·log·ing, di·a·logues or di·a·logs

Now once again we see that some people can't debate, just attack. It's a valid concern Dean should have for his OWN chances. You know you didn't help Dean at all with this post. I had just read some of his blog responses father up-thread and was thinking how I should visit his sites just to learn a little more from the man himself.

If you're typical of who I'll run into maybe I'll pass.

Here is a site that ranks all the candidates.


http://www.granitestaters.com/home/

Here are their thoughts on Howard Dean and Medical marijuana..

http://www.granitestaters.com/guide/dean.html


TWL