Ever wonder what became of the steel from WTC?

I remember very well as much as 3-4 weeks after WTC collapse whenever reports on the nightly news would originate from ground zero, there was always a "glow" coming from the area where the two towers stood. I remember wondering how could a fire burn like that for so long, even through rainstorms. Here's some interesting info I have found...

<snip>
In the basement of the collapsed towers, where the 47 central support columns connected with the bedrock, hotspots of "literally molten steel" were discovered more than a month after the collapse. Such persistent and residual heat, 70 feet below the surface,in an oxygen starved environment, could explain how these crucial structural supports failed.
Peter Tully, president of Tully Construction of Flushing, New York, told AFP that he saw pools of "literally molten steel" at the World Trade Center.
Tully was contracted after the Sept. 11 tragedy to remove the debris from the site.
<snip>

The hottest spots at the surface of the rubble, where abundant oxygen was available, were much cooler than the molten steel found in the basements.
<snip>

Dozens of hot spots were mapped, the hottest being in the east corner of the South Tower where a temperature 1,377 degrees F was recorded.
This is, however, half as hot as the molten steel in the basement.
<snip>

Evidently, the energy source that shook the ground beneath the Towers was many times more powerful than the totaL potential energy released by the falling mass of the towers. The question is: What was the energy source?
While steel is often tested for evidence of explosions, despite numerous eyewitness reports of explosions in the towers, the engineers involved in the FEMA-sponsored building assessment did no such tests.
<snip>

Much of the structural steel from the WTC was sold to Alan D. Ratner of Metal Management of Newark, New Jersey, and the New York based company Hugo Neu Schnitzer East.
Ratner, who heads the New Jersey branch of the Chicago based company, sold the WTC steel to overseas companies, repotedly selling more than 50,000 tons of steel to a Shanghai steel company known as Baosteel for $120 per ton. Ratner paid about $70 per ton for the steel.
Other shipments of steel from WTC went to India and other Asian ports.

more...
http://www.rense.com/general28/ioff.htm

to make a toilet for a certain ranch in Crawford, TX? He might as well for all he's done to sh*t on the memory of the 911 victims.

An underground nuclear detonation. That must be it!

HFishbine? Perhaps you can prove it wasn't! Seems the steel disappeared rather quickly so it couldn't be examined and a determination made one way or the other!

...at a Catholic church in the Barelas neighborhood of Albuquerque, N.M. They got a section to use as their new bell tower.

As for the hot spots, I'm not at all surprised. Don't foget, there were trapped combustible materials already on fire and the pressure of two 110 story buildings compressed into a heap of rubble about 4 stories tall.

As for the shaking under the witnesses' feet when the collapse was occurring, I suggest they check out sound transmission through steel and concrete vs. sound transmission through air.

You speak as though you are someone who actually believes that science and all that sort of stuff may have something to tell us about what happened at the WTC on 9/11/01.

Don't you realize that that is exactly what "they" want us all to believe?

Besides, where is the fun in things like "conmbustible materials" and "pressure of two 110 story buildings being comressed in to a heap of rubble"? And there is no fun in talking about "sound transmission".

Those things are just to hard to understand. I, myself, slept through all of the classes in school whenever the teachers tried to cover such boring topics. It j ust puts me to sleep.

It is so much more fun to sit around and concoct theories and to just leave out all that boring science stuff that no one (except geeks) really understands anyway.

And it is lots and lots of fun to say to anyone who challenges those theories "Oh yeah? Can your prove it didn't happen the way I said it did?"

Perhaps you can prove it wasn't.

finally pulled the critical piece, the towers came down.

It was phaser fire, and you can't prove it wasn't!

What a ridiculous statement. Even the smallest battlefield nuke would have been quite...um... "noticable" in effect.

There was no "nukular" explosion.


What's the "over/under" post count bet for when this thread moves to the conspiracy theory (I mean 9/11) forum?

That website has some very "strange" articles there. That the steel has been kept clear of troublesome investigation and then shipped overseas, seems to be pretty well confirmed. That's 'suspicious", but the above is "fishy".

pnorman

What the hecked heated the steel up to over 2,700 degrees? What sort of bomb in the basement would do that?

I was an aircraft refueling specialist in the USAF from '71-'77. While jet fuel does burn hot, it burns very quickly. If you remember the gigantic fireball from the explosion when the second plane hit the WTC, that was caused by a large amount of jet fuel being dispersed into the air...NOT within the building. If you will remember correctly, the south tower, which was hit AFTER the north tower, was the first to collapse. The north tower was hit pretty much straight on, while the south tower was hit more by a corner shot, and a large amount of fuel burnt off OUTSIDE the building!
Construction steel has a very high melting point of around 2,800 F. There is no way that the jet fuel EVER reached that heat range! A detailed explanation...complete with diagrams can be found at http://www.serendipity.li/wtc.htm

was over within a few seconds, but it was enough to ignite all combustible materials on about 5 floors. Check out the next office you're in for what burned: desks, cubicle walls, chairs, window shades, computer cases, files, carpeting, plants, the paint on the walls. Yes, the fireball was gone quickly, but the fire it ignited burned for hours, softened the steel floor supports, caused them to distort, and eventually caused the entire building to fail at the fire site.

For a great description of what fire does in an interior space, check out firecommandandcontrol.com/e-magazine/apr_mayl_June2002/ apr_may_june2_2002.pdf Pay close attention to the one roaring inferno that was found to be fed by the paint on the walls in a stairwell!

First off, you are forgetting that in modern offices they are mandated by law to use fire retardent fixtures and furnishings; drapes, carpeting, wall coverings, etc. etc. Second, there was a massive, fully functioning sprinkler system that was charged and funtioning. Both of the above measures worked fully on 911. Radio reports from the firemen WHO WERE ON THE SCENE were reporting back that the fires in both towers were controlable, the fire was spreading relatively slowly, and the sprinkler system was operating as it should. This observation was further bolsterd by eyewitnesses coming out of the towers themselves. The firemen were only calling for three hoses to put out each tower's fire. Having been a former fireman, I can tell you that three hoses, I don't care if they're two inch lines, means that it is a relatively minor fire, one that is easily controlable.

This is further borne out by the pictures we saw that day. Both towers that day had thick black smoke coming out of them, with little evident flame. This means that the fire was being suppressed, smothered. Hence, the towers' fire suppression system was working.

And you are being a bit disingenous with your source there. The "one roaring inferno that was found to be fed by the paint on the walls in a stairwell!" that you cite was a gasoline fed arson fire. Also, most large public buildings these days DO use fire retardent/fire supressing materials in virtually all nonfurniture applications, ie drapes, paint and other wall coverings, carpets, trim work, molding, walls and other structural material etc. Insure companies force these materials(with good cause)to be used so as to limit their potential liablity. Besides, did you forget that the WTC was built to withstand the impact and subsequent devastation of a Boeing 707 strike? This includes the fire damage as well as the impact damage. And a 707 us virtually the same size, weight and other vital specs of the 767s that hit the WTC. And you know as well as I do that ALL architects, engineers and construction companies overengineer every building they put up.

What we were shown that day was The Big Lie, right in front of us, live and in color. That so many people have continued to believe in The Big Lie just goes to show the sorry state of sheeple society in this country.

"Besides, did you forget that the WTC was built to withstand the impact and subsequent devastation of a Boeing 707 strike? This includes the fire damage as well as the impact damage. And a 707 us virtually the same size, weight and other vital specs of the 767s that hit the WTC"

I saw a program on the Discovery Channel or The Learning Channel about the Collapse of the WTC Towers.

The Chief Struictural Engineer spoke extensively on this program.

He made the point that the WTC Towers has indeed been engineered to withstand the impact of a 707 jet aircraft.

What you fail to mention, however, is that the assumptions made by the structural enigeering team, were if a 707 were to strike the WTC towers, it would most likely be a plane lost in fog an attempting to land. Which means that it would be flying at a relatively low spped (I think he said around 200 mph). It would also mean that its fuel tanks would be pretty much depleted of fuel.

Each of the planes that sruck the WTC towers were flying at full throttle -- over 500 mph. They were near the beginning of a transcontniental trip -- and their fuel tanks were pretty close to full.

Even so, both WTC towers performed as the structual engineers designed them -- they DID withstand the impacts.

And that is the speed factor. MIT estimates of the two planes speeds were at 429 for the plane that hit the North Tower and 537 for the plane that hit the South Tower. And though the official stress limits were for a plane hitting at a lower speed, various WTC engineers have already come out stating that the Towers were overengineered and should have withstood the impact of a 707 traveling out a much greater rate of speed. And yes, they did withstand the impacts.

As far as fuel goes, the tanks were probably only half full. Most intracontinental flights only run with a little over the amount of fuel that it takes them to get there. Being as that a full fuel tank is aprox. 7000-8000 miles worth of travel, they flight crew would have only gone to half tank. This is done to minimize damage in case a plane does crash somewhere in the US. Besides, we saw about half of the second plane's fuel ignite in a spectacular fireball when it hit off-center on the South Tower.

Yet none of this is germaine to my central point, ie, how did these two minimal fires that were obviously being suppressed burn hot enough for long enough to supposedly melt steel and collapse the towers?

Jets don't carry less fuel "to minimize damage in case a plane does crash somewhere in the US", they can always dump fues before a crash if needed. They do it because thousands of pounds of unneeded fuel is very expensive to fly cross-country for no good reason.


However, they would also be carrying a reserve load of fuel to allow them to orbit a crowded airport or divert to a different one. The tanks would have been well over half full.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

<http://www.planecrashinfo.com/specs.htm>

Go check it out for yourself, and then tell me what I supposedly don't know.

Oh, by the by, it isn't a very bright idea to go around calling people names and insulting them. First off, it can easily turn around and bite you in the ass(see link above for ass biting specs), second, it will get your post deleted and possibly get you banned.

Funny eh?

fire resistant is not fire PROOF. fire resistance means things are resistant to burning until subject to extreme heat/flame contact, at which point their "fire resistance" means nothing.

sprinklers? i'm sure the sprinklers in the sections of building destroyed by the planes worked fine. /sarcasm.

the smoke means nothing. one section may smolder while another is an inferno. you, being a fireman, could probably understand better than i can the effect, of having an airplane sized hole blasted into the side of a building, damn near a quarter mile in the sky, along with a great big fire to get things started, and then throw in the signifigant air supply coming in those big holes, how windy is it a quarter mile up? 20mph? i don't know, maybe more, particularly at the surface of the buildings, due to the venturi effect or whatever as the air speeds up to blow around the immovable buildings.

so you heard a few firemen ask for a few hoses, and say it was under control, did those few firemen personally survey the entire crash site? you got pics of them waving out the gaping hole or something? how many hundreds of rescue people were in the building? were all their radio conversations recorded? have you heard them? or just the tapes from floor 15?


i do agree with you, sept 11 was a big lie, just not exactly as you seem to believe.

Ummm, no.

And the paint on the walls and stairwells was chock full of WR Grace asbestos.

Nuclear bombs in the basement and incendiary devices of some kind on the exact floors where the planes struck. Now I'm getting it.

that the planes were not carrying a full load of fuel, when they hit the towers. They didn't even take off with full loads because they were only going to the west coast and a full load goes about 7000 miles in those planes.

Second, a good portion of this partial load was used up on take off, by the time the planes hit the towers, they had at most 10,000 gallons of fuel, about half of which burnt off in the fire ball. The remaining publiched estimate of 3500 gallons was probably pretty well disbursed all over the interior in a fine mist. Enough to start fires on the materials they landed on, sort of like lighting a charcoal grill. But just like on the grill, the fuel burnt off rather quickly leaving the office contents and such to fuel the fires we saw before the collapse.

From what I have seen, a large amount of the jet fuel was deposited inside the building. Those planes did not disintegrate on the surface. They penetrated the building well into the interior, blowing a portion of the other side out. These planes were pretty full and were LARGE, 767's. The buildings were designed with a 707 in mind. 767's were not even known in the 70's.

The penetrations also allowed for a large amount of fuel for the internal fire. Regardless of how fast JP burns, the energy has to have somewhere to go, and it will not burn faster than the oxygen available to burn it. In the open air it may be a flash fire (as it vaporized very easily), internally, it is much longer burning.

As for the molten glob of steel at the bottom. Well, it's is obvious to me that millions of tons collapsing from 1500 feet in less than minute generated a tremendous amount of pressure. This pressure will be converted to energy in the form of sound and HEAT. Think of a meteor hitting a planet. The flash and heat come from the release of kinetic energy from the motion and mass of the objects (meteor vs. planet, WTC vs. ground).

It is all very believable that it fell because of the impacts, which weakened the structure and the fires from the jet fuel and everything else combustible. Even if there was no fire, if enough supports gave way over a span of time, the collapse would start and power itself downward.

Remember, the WTC, unlike box-frame skyscrapers such ans Empire State or Sears Tower, was supported mostly by its outer skin. A large part of that was compromised so the forces (courtesy of gravity) kept looking for alternate vectors to the ground support.

As I recall, the building that was hit at a lower level collapsed first. Understandable with more weight looking for a path past the damaged skin/support to the ground.

There are more plausible mysteries than this; such as WTC #5 collapse (was it a missile that missed the plane?) or The Pennsylvania flight (was is shot down?). 9/11, did Bush know more?

The WTC went on its own, a design pushed beyond its ability to compensate. It's amazing they did not collapse sooner, given the lack if internal support (by design).

explosives. Thermite would be a better choice to melt the columns.

Speculating, say around the 40th floor or so, drill a 3/4" hole in each column and 'blow' thermite into the column. The thermite would then settle to the bottom of the column to await a magnesium starter strip ignited when the building is to be dropped. The starter strip doesn't need to be in the basement either, it could be say in the hole that was drilled to previously inject the thermite into the column. Conceal the starter strip with a box disguised as a control box for say the sprinkler system. There ya have it, a way to make it happen.

A cubic yard of thermite per column should do it. Plus thermite doesn't contain nitrates, thus no explosives to detect.

It would also explain why the steel columns seemed to just turn to powder in some pictures of the collapse. After all, a lot of the heat would travel to the top of the column as the thermite 'burned'.

This would also explain the pools molten steel in the basement.

How to prove the theory though? Be difficult without the salvaged steel. Anybody claiming this is the way it happened would be labeled a conspiracy nut, for sure.

Edit to change '(foot) to "(inch)

Did Marvin Bush have anything at all to do with that building? That would be all the more suspicious.

They have a little sculpture and memorial that's not nearly as cool as it's hyped up to be.

Conveniently before any forensics could be done.

The article cited by the original poster contradicts this.

Sending large shipments of scrap to India or China is very very common. They are paying the best prices for scrap. It's also how they can sell new steel cheaper than US foundrys, and destablize the steel market. Metal Management and Schnitzer are the 2 big players in the scrap industry in the US, so having them handle the sale is pretty normal as well. The Govt. didn't authorize release until their "experts" combed thru the wreckage looking for beams from the floors around the crashes, parts of the planes, and personal affects. The Jersey mob "diverted" a few truckloads to sell for themselves, but were caught.

You know, before it was sold for scrap overseas and all ...

This page has a ton of engineering links:

http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/wtc/wtctragedy.html#Structural%20Investigation%20Teams

http://www.asce.org/responds/
http://www.fema.gov/library/wtcstudy.shtm
Appendix C, D have some details of the steel collection.

Some of this work is ongoing at NIST it seems:
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/breaking_news/6632329.htm

sections of it at a 'traveling' memorial that represents one that they are building in Sacramento.

That could be the reason for the hot spots. With enough material on top it would turn into a radiant heater.

The short answer is "yes".

that the remains of the towers were sold for scrap before any testing could be done. (Dad was a Battalion Chief on the Chicago FD and that was his first tip-off that the "official" story was B.S..)

Think about it......when a plane goes down, the crash debris is meticulously collected so the plane can be rebuilt to find out exactly what happened to prevent future mishaps. You'd think they'd want to test the piss out of those towers, wouldn't you?

Unless, of course, there was something to hide from expert prying eyes!

Are you saying that no testing was done at all?

I saw a program on either the Learning Channel or the DIscovery Channel that covered extensively the collapse of both WTC towers.

At one point, there was a forensic expert who was, I think, a mettalurgist from MIT. He was standing in a junkyard in New Jersey where the steel from the WTC Towers had been taken.

He discussed the way the girders had been mis-shapened and he also pointing to some of the scorch marks on som eof the steel. He also showed how some of the connections between certain steel elements had been broken, and he explained the siginificance ofwhat the steel showed.

It appeared to me as though he had done rather a lot of testing.

was a very very small sample of the total steel. And none of the steel was tested from any parts of the building except the steel close to where the airplanes struck.

I seem to remember from the report there was a picture of the locations in the building of where the steel that was tested came from, it was all close to the impact sites. Nothing was tested from the bedrock steel. Yet IF there are remains of residue of some material that heated the steel in the basement, those residues would be in the steel way down deep in the debris.

never had a chance to get their hands on it and that was their bitch....it's their ass on the line whenever they enter a burning building and there were many factors/perspectives that were never addressed to their satisfaction.

http://www.americanfreepress.net/Conspiracy/Fire_Engineers_Call_WTC_Probe/fire_engineers_call_wtc_probe.html

Fire Engineering magazine, the 125-year old journal of record among America’s fire engineers and firefighters, recently blasted the investigation being conducted by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) of the collapsed World Trade Center as a “a half-baked farce.” Fire Engineering’s editor, William Manning, issued a “call to action” to America’s firefighters and fire engineers in the January issue asking them to contact their representatives in Congress and officials in Washington to demand a blue ribbon panel to thoroughly investigate the collapse of the World Trade Center structures. Fire Engineering frequently publishes technical studies of major fires and is read in more than 50,000 fire departments and schools of fire engineering across the nation.

-snip-

“For more than three months, structural steel from the World Trade Center has been and continues to be cut up and sold for scrap. Crucial evidence that could answer many questions about high-rise building design practices and performance under fire conditions is on the slow boat to China....

-snip-

Nowhere in the national standard for fire investigation does one find an exemption allowing the destruction of evidence or buildings over 10 stories tall, Manning said. “Clearly, there are burning questions that need answers. Based on the incident’s magnitude alone, a full-throttle, fully-resourced, forensic investigation is imperative. The lessons about the buildings’ design and behavior in this extraordinary event must be learned and applied in the real world.

-snip-

Given the magnitude of the disaster “you would think we would have the largest fire investigation in world history,” the editorial says. “You would be wrong. Instead, we have a series of unconnected and uncoordinated superficial inquiries. No comprehensive ‘Presidential Blue Ribbon Commission.’ No top-notch National Transportation Safety Board-like response. Ironically, we will probably gain more detailed information about the destruction of the planes than we will about the destruction of the towers. We are literally treating the steel removed from the site like garbage, not like crucial fire scene evidence.”

-snip-

A group of engineers from the American Society of Civil Engineers, commissioned by the Federal Emergency Management Agency, is reported to be studying “some aspects of the collapse,” but not all, according to Manning and others. The engineers’ investigation, they say, has not looked into all aspects of the disaster and has had limited access to documents and other evidence.

“Except for the marginal benefit obtained from a three-day, visual walk-through of evidence sites conducted by ASCE investigation committee members—described by one close source as a “tourist trip”—no one’s checking the evidence for anything,” Manning said. “As things now stand and if they continue in such fashion, the investigation into the World Trade Center fire and collapse will amount to paper- and computer-generated hypotheticals.”

EXPLAIN THIS!

Where is it?

>Think about it......when a plane goes down, the crash debris is
>meticulously collected so the plane can be rebuilt to find out
>exactly what happened to prevent future mishaps.

Except that here, the cause of the crash was never in question. Why go through the trouble of rebuilding the plane to figure out that it hit a building?

If the debris is meticulously collected from a downed aircraft to ascertain the exact cause of the accident then why wasn't the debris from the towers collected and tested to provide valuable structural and firefighting insights? The tower debris was forensic evidence yet it was treated like garbage! To my knowledge, this has NEVER happened with any other large-scale accident of consequence.

1) Extremely important lessons about firefighting in large skyscrapers were learned on that day, and learned well (by most people, I would hope)

2) It is probably not feasible to develop skyscrapers to withstand something like this. They can always get a bigger plane, load it with explosives or incendiaries or whatnot. The cost would also be prohibitive. Also, please note that not many large skyscrapers are being built in this country today, with the exception of the new WTC buildings.

3) Even if we begin to build skyscrapers in this fashion, there is still a stock of existing skyscrapers that don't meet those criteria which will make perfect targets.

4) In the event of another terrorist attack on a skyscraper, it is impossible to predict whether or not the structure will collapse. There simply isn't time, and best practice would be to assume that it *will* collapse.

For those reasons, I don't think you get a lot of benefit from exhaustively researching every eccentricity of the towers' collapse. The primary strike-points of the planes have already been exhaustively studied, and we have a farily good idea of what happened. While this is interesting information, it is not particularly useful for planning purposes, as you won't be able to adequately predict what a building is going to do in a particular situation. There are too many variables and too short a time to deal with them. First-responders are not structural engineers, and it will be difficult to even make accurate guesses about the behavior of a structure in this situation.

I also don't understand this continued insistence that the wreckage hasn't been studied. It has. We understand the failure mechanism that brought down the towers. There is a fairly high degree of confidence within the engineering community as to the primary mechanism of the towers' collapse. Sure, there's disagreement about some of the details, but these are fairly minor and don't negate the main point. We know what brought the towers down. What, in particular, do you suggest we study?

1) Extremely important lessons about firefighting in large skyscrapers were learned on that day, and learned well (by most people, I would hope)

This has NOTHING to do with the point. The point is that MORE COULD HAVE BEEN LEARNED IF THE RUBBLE WAS ANALYZED BETTER.

2) It is probably not feasible to develop skyscrapers to withstand something like this. They can always get a bigger plane, load it with explosives or incendiaries or whatnot. The cost would also be prohibitive. Also, please note that not many large skyscrapers are being built in this country today, with the exception of the new WTC buildings.

Well, then. I guess since you say so. You are so full of shit it must be oozing out of your fingers onto your keyboard.

3) Even if we begin to build skyscrapers in this fashion, there is still a stock of existing skyscrapers that don't meet those criteria which will make perfect targets.

Exactly. No sense in even TRYING TO LEARN any ANSWERS since the great expert yibbehobba has clearly determined that no scientific analysis could ever lead to perfection!

4) In the event of another terrorist attack on a skyscraper, it is impossible to predict whether or not the structure will collapse. There simply isn't time, and best practice would be to assume that it *will* collapse.

:wtf: THE BEST FUCKING PRACTICE IS TO STUDY THE EVENT UNTIL EVERYTHING THAT COULD POSSIBLY BE LEARNED FROM IT IS LEARNED FROM IT!!!

The firefighters - you know.....those guys who actually GO into burning buildings and dedicate their lives to Fire Science - disagree with your armchair assessment. It's a BIG deal to them that the (I'm going to repeat it again, slowly) forensic evidence was literally trashed without a full and complete investigation. We'll NEVER KNOW what may have been discovered had the proper procedures been followed.

But I'll tell you what....I'll pass your idea along to the FAA so they can just stop investigating every damn plane that happens to go down. I mean, why piffle with messy investigations in the interest of science and truth, right?

Since we'll never figure out how to make planes stop crashing anyway!

Well, while I agree with you in principle, I look at it from a slightly different perspective. We know why the towers collapsed. It's been well-researched. But should every single piece of the rubble be investigated? To what extent should each piece be looked at? It's hard to imagine the magnitude of an operation to do a full-scale forensic job on something that large. It would be just a massive undertaking. At some point the possible benefits of further investigation outweigh the costs and the time consumed. And then, in the end, say we've learned a lot about skyscraper design. We make new requirements. We require the retrofit of every large skyscraper in America (or maybe just the landmarks) costing tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars.

And now that our skyscrapers are safe, they'll go blow up a dam in the Sierra and flood Sacramento. Or maybe just crash an airline into a stadium during a game. Or whatever. They will find the loophole. There's lots of stuff out there for them to blow up, and we can't protect all of it. Or even most of it. They'll find the loophole. It's what they're good at, and now amount of preparation can stop them from finding new ones. In the long run, money is probably better spent on prevention (border/port security, etc...) Of course, the real solution would be to stop giving people the impetus to blow us up, but we seem to have botched that royally.

Murphy's law and all that ...

YUP! The Fire Engineers certainly wanted to give it a Go!

Have you ever seen a massive warehouse fire on the news and then find out later that it was arson-related, or caused by a gas leak or an electrical malfunction? How do you think they figured it out? By examining every scrap of debris they could get their hands on!

No, we do NOT conclusively "know why the towers collapsed." Evidence was destroyed so there may be holes in the official story we'll never know about.

While it may appear to have been "well-researched" it certainly wasn't fully researched and it SHOULD HAVE BEEN!

The manner in which the forensic evidence/debris was so quickly disposed of can certainly cause one to wonder "What were they trying to hide?"

Do you also recall how the EPA lied about the air quality in the weeks after the Towers collapsed? Do you REALLY believe we were told the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing BUT the Truth about those Towers? I sure as hell don't! Too many pieces of the debris puzzle were intentionally removed from the equation. Again, ask yourself "Why?"


btw - highways and skyscrapers throughout California have been earthquake retrofitted so apparently there ARE public-safety benefits associated with these types of endeavors.

>Have you ever seen a massive warehouse fire on the news and then
>find out later that it was arson-related, or caused by a gas leak or
>an electrical malfunction? How do you think they figured it out? By
>examining every scrap of debris they could get their hands on!

Right. Agreed. However, in this case we know why the buildings fell down. Planes hit the buildings, and the resulting effects of those events caused the buildings to collapse. The scientific literature is not at all unclear on the collapse mechanism itself.

>Evidence was destroyed so there may be holes in the official story
>we'll never know about.

I don't buy the argument of an "official" story with respect to the investigation. Investigations were conducted by many independent non-government organizations, and the results have been published extensively.

>Do you also recall how the EPA lied about the air quality in the
>weeks after the Towers collapsed? Do you REALLY believe we were told
>the Truth, the whole Truth and nothing BUT the Truth about those
>Towers?

I'm well aware of the actions of those stupid, useless bastards. But the information I'm referring to doesn't come from some government "official version" of events. It comes from scientific literature produced by a number of different private organizations and universities who were involved in the investigation. I can dig up links, if you'd like. If you can cite one article in a respected journal that differs significantly from the others, I'd love to see it and would definitely consider it. So far, I haven't seen one.

>btw - highways and skyscrapers throughout California have been
>earthquake retrofitted so apparently there ARE public-safety
>benefits associated with these types of endeavors.

Correct. Because there's essentially a 100% chance of those structures experiencing at least a moderate energy earthquake within their lifetimes. Same goes for Florida with hurricanes. But it wouldn't make sense to retrofit every building in CA to withstand a hurricane. For those same reasons, I don't think it makes sense to retrofit all skyscrapers to withstand the sort of thing that happened on 9/11. In talking to structural engineers, the feeling I get is that:

1) The most important thing is upgrading fire procedures and fire suppression systems, and making sure that all employees in a building understand evacuation procedures.

2) While it's possible in *some* cases to retrofit buildings to withstand this sort of thing, it isn't always possible. And it essentially becomes less possible the taller the building is (and, therefore the better a target)

3) In the cases where it is possible, it is frequently prohibitively expensive to the point where it would make more economic sense to just build a suburban office campus and abandon the building entirely.

Of course, none of this addresses your concerns about a cover-up. However, as I stated earlier, the science is not unclear on the failure mechanism in the collapse. I'm not exactly sure what it is you think is being covered up, unless you suspect that the reason for the building's collapse was the result of something other than the airplanes hitting it.

Why study the heavens? I mean, we know the stars and planets orbit the Earth. Right?

BINGO! Now you Get It!

However I'd add "possible" to the concept of a cover-up...without the Fire Engineers weighing-in on the forensics, we'll never know for sure but it certainly looks suspicious. The Fire Engineers' opinion means far more to me than that of institutions that may be politically financed/influenced/biased. You're still missing a huge piece of the puzzle without their input. I'm not willing to make a final conclusion without all the data.

1. Jet Fuel
2. Gas Fires (Hundreds of gas lines running into and out of complex)

This is strangest part of the 9/11 of all to me



Trots in Space

Juan R Posadas was no ordinary Trotskyite; socialists from outer space, the benefits of nuclear war and communication with dolphins were all part of his revolutionary programme. Matt Salusbury tells the story of one of the World’s strangest political thinkers. Main illustration by KID SPANIARD.



We think of UFO cults, typically, as being naïve, fancy-dress Californian affairs, scary religious Doomsday sects, or even neo-Nazi groups convinced that flying saucers operate from a secret Antarctic base. But there was one UFO cult at the opposite end of the political spectrum: a Trotskyite UFO cult.

They called themselves the Posadists after their founder Juan R Posadas and, like many UFO cults, they bore a fierce loyalty to their “dear master”.1 They believed that close encounters were evidence of superior socialist civilisations from Earth’s future. Their bizarre belief in flying saucers was not channelled to them by some tackily-named space entity but “theoretically informed” by Marx and Trotsky, and was for them a logical extension of Marxist dialectical materialism. Posadas wrote: “We will travel to planets millions of light years away under a Socialist society.”

Their founder was a leading light of Latin American Trotskyism, one of a select group running the Fourth International (see ‘Posadism for Beginners’ side bar) after Leon Trotsky’s death. Alongside their esoteric texts on “flying saucers, the process of matter and energy, science, the revolutionary class struggle and the Socialist future of humanity,” 2 they also preached more orthodox Marxism and strove tirelessly to bring about world revolution. Posadist Fourth International affiliates worked to organise trade unions, often operating clandestinely under dictatorships. Some ‘comrades’ even lost their lives in the struggle.
(snip)
&imgrefurl=http://www-users.york.ac.uk/~sph2/spooky/ghoulies.htm&h=575&w=432&sz=16&tbnid=rUlQbZnspyYJ:&tbnh=131&tbnw=99&start=4&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dspooky%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DG

information that lends itself back to scientific understanding and blah blah. It is not as fun as claiming an alien death ray or the shrub using a voodoo doll or a nukular explosion. I will qualify my comments by stating this...

I am working on my masters degree in Materials Engineering and have a bachelors degree in Metallurgical Engineering (specializing in metal... most people have no clue what my degree is)

Part of my degree is looking at something called thermodynamics and heat transfer. Thermodynamics is the study of energy and whether a reaction uses energy or creates energy. The heat comes from this.....

Structural steel contains basically, iron, carbon, sulfur, manganese, and some other alloys that are minimal. The combination of steel with things such as paper, water, wood, combustable materials like hairspray, cotton, and whatever else would be in an office building. The combination of these things can and will react together to create a great deal of heat. Since the material was below the surface of the earth and there was NO OXYGEN, the heat was insulated and did not dissipate quickly. Obviously the steel in the towers was weakened due to a degree of melting, hence the structure collapsed on itself. And if you watch the structure collapse it collapsed top down. Burrying heat in the ground and those temperatures caused reactions to occur with the "combustables" that were there. Those reactions fed off eachother until reactions that are endothermic (i.e. they require heat to continue) started occurring and started using the available energy (in the form of heat).

The only thing that kinda disturbs me about this website is the propensity of its members to latch onto anything they think might be a conspiracy and start going crazy. Not everything in this world is conspiratorial. The conspiracy, in my opinion, is how our government, over a 20 year period systematically eliminated the portions of the intelligence agencies abilities to detect what occurred. This was not done by republican or democrats alone. This was done by all those bastard life-time politicians dem and repuke alike. Not necessarilly to hurt the country but to appease some BS group here or there. Screw special interests and screw lifetime politicians.

peace out

kerry's a worthless douche but bush is worse...

A vote for anyone but kerry is a vote for the shrub

STOPTHESHRUB

Go directly back to high school. Do not pass go.

You know what pisses me off almost as much as republicans?

It's when paranoid, ignorant people who have absolutely no training in science or physics start making wild clams about things that they know absolutely nothing about.

Cut it out. You're making fools of yourselves, and others by proxy, by posting this nonsense.

We are allowed and just remember there are many things that science has yet to been able to explain. One of the greatest fears of all is the fear of the unknown. To realize our thoughts are shared by others is also one of our greatest strengths.

This site is listed as Political Satire and we didn't paste that title up like that, others did. I am not endorsing anything except contempt for anyone that seems to think they know what madness (clinical insanity) is like for others. To the degree to which things are credible are to the degree from which you can draw your substance.

To push the envelope is a quest to garner answers from an omnipresent, the answers you seek, once found are but stepping stones to find more questions to ask. There are many (sic) sane people here that post answers to all kind of questions. I like to ask them crazy questions and also tell people to ignore me (especially if it makes them feel better).

I still waiting for an adequate answer on the steel though

"Freethinker n. A person who forms opinions about religion on the basis of reason, independently of tradition, authority, or established belief."

http://www.miniluv.com/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=471

Btw, lighten up there, we are just contemplating out loud (in a way)

the firefighters never had the opportunity to do their own forensic tests before the evidence was whisked away as scrap. Consequently there will ALWAYS remain criical unanswered questions that give rise to speculation.

It bothers me that the bait-and-switch, lying and deceptive Bush* Administration was so quick to dispose of the evidence. Doncha' wonder WHY?

It took months to haul it all away. The steel beams were hauled to the waterfront at the pier by Stuyvesant HS. From there it was loaded onto barges. Anyone could look at them. I stood there myself and talked with the crane operator who was loading the barges. He told me all about it. He was very, very upset by the carnage he had seen at the site. It was devastating.

He showed me the giant I-beams stacked along the West Side Highway. I could touch them, I could walk on them if I wanted to. It was not secret, it was perfectly public. Anyone could walk there and look. Do you think those hundreds of New York steelworkers and crane operators and firemen and barge operators were all in on some plot?

Where are they?

Do you think those hundreds of New York steelworkers and crane operators and firemen and barge operators were all in on some plot?

Yes. They woke up each morning plotting to do whatever their bosses told them to do, just like 200 million other Americans.

Got any photos of the pile cleanup? No? photos were banned huh? The Feds had most of lower Manhattan shut down you say?

--------
"Indeed, critical evidence of how the trade center collapsed may be lost already. In the immediate aftermath of the disaster, haulers began to cut up and truck pieces of the towers' 300,000 tons (272,000 tonnes) of structural steel to recycling centers because the pieces purportedly did not hold any evidence important to criminal investigators."

"According to a report in the New York Times, city officials who were focused on recovery efforts overlooked the possibility that the debris could hold clues of interest to forensic engineers. A request to the city by ASCE to study the structural steel did not reach officials UNTIL ALMOST THREE WEEKS AFTER THE COLLAPSE."

http://www.architectureweek.com/2001/1017/news_1-2.html


October 4, 2001
"Additionally, two recent bid awards were made to scrap processing firms to recycle 50,000 tons of large structural beams. Under the terms of those awards, the beams will be taken from the World Trade Center site, loaded onto river barges and sent directly to the purchasers' facilities for recycling. These two scrap processors have already offloaded 20,000 tons of structural steel beams shipped by barge directly from ground zero to their facilities."

". As of this date, there are only two legal pathways by which scrap metal moves from ground zero of the World Trade Center. First, light iron and non-ferrous materials are being sent to the Fresh Kills landfill on Staten Island for forensic review. After the authorities have released the materials they are transferred to a scrap processor under contract with the New York City Department of Sanitation that existed prior to September 11, 2001. Second, two contracts for 25,000 tons each of heavy steel were awarded on a bid basis on September 26, 2001. These materials are being loaded onto barges for delivery to the winning bidders."

http://www.steel.org/news/innews/pr_prnewswire10_04_01.ht
--------

At least 70,000 tons of steel were gone by sept 26 with no inspection whatsoever. Also see post #65

http://securitysolutions.com/ar/security_gps_job_massive/

On November 26, the city initiated use of an in-vehicle GPS tracking system to monitor locations of trucks hired to haul the debris to Fresh Kills, the official dump site on Staten Island.

“Geofenced zones,” connected by “geofenced corridors,” were set up around Ground Zero and the other sites. By tracking the trucks, officials were also able to monitor the actions of the drivers.

“We were able to start identifying patterns of behavior. If a driver arrived late, the traffic analyst would look at why. Maybe the driver stopped for lunch, or maybe he ran into traffic,” Shalmon says.

“Ninety-nine percent of the drivers were extremely driven to do their jobs. But there were big concerns, because the loads consisted of highly sensitive material. One driver, for example, took an extended lunch break of an hour and a half. There was nothing criminal about that, but he was dismissed. There were also cases where trucks did little detours from their routes,” Shalmon says.

ROBERT T. STAFFORD DISASTER RELIEF AND
EMERGENCY ASSISTANCE ACT

P.L. 93-288, as amended (October,2000)

DEFINITIONS

Sec. 102. As used in this Act

(1) "Emergency" means any occasion or instance for which, in the determination of the President, Federal assistance is needed to supplement State and local efforts and capabilities to save lives and to protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe in any part of the United States."

Sec. 302. (a) Immediately upon his declaration of a major disaster or emergency, the President shall appoint a Federal coordinating officer to operate in the affected area.

Sec. 402. In any major disaster, the President may -

(1) direct any Federal agency, with or without reimbursement, to utilize its authorities and the resources granted to it under Federal law (including personnel, equipment, supplies, facilities, and managerial, technical, and advisory services) in support of State and local assistance efforts;
(2) coordinate all disaster relief assistance (including voluntary assistance) provided by Federal agencies, private organizations, and State and local governments;
(3) provide technical and advisory assistance to affected State and local governments

Sec. 405. (a) The President may authorize any Federal Agency to repair, reconstruct, restore, or replace any facility owned by the United States and under the jurisdiction of such agency which is damaged or destroyed by an major disaster if he determines that such repair, reconstruction, restoration, or replacement is of such importance and urgency that it cannot reasonably be deferred pending the enactment of specific authorizing legislation or the making of an appropriation for such purposes, or the obtaining of congressional committee approval.

(b) In order to carry out the provisions of this section, such repair, reconstruction, restoration, or replacement may be begun notwithstanding a lack or an insufficiency of funds appropriated for such purpose, where such lack or insufficiency can be remedied by the transfer, in accordance with law, of funds appropriated to that agency for another purpose.

DEBRIS REMOVAL

Sec. 407. (a) The President, whenever he determines it to be in the public interest, is authorized -

(1) through the use of Federal departments, agencies, and instrumentalities, to clear debris and wreckage resulting from a major disaster from publicly and privately owned lands and waters; and
(2) to make grants to any State of local government or owner or operator of a private nonprofit facility for the purpose of removing debris or wreckage resulting from a major disaster from publicly or privately owned lands and waters.

(b) No authority under this section shall be exercised unless the affected State or local government shall first arrange an unconditional authorization for removal of such debris or wreckage from public and private property, and, in the case of removal of debris or wreckage from private property, shall first agree to indemnify the Federal Government against any claim arising from such removal.

(c) Rules Relating to Large Lots. The President shall issue rules which provide for recognition of differences existing among urban, suburban, and rural lands in implementation of this section so as to facilitate adequate removal of debris and wreckage from large lots.

(d) Federal Share. The Federal share of assistance under this section shall be not less than 75 percent of the eligible cost of debris and wreckage removal carried out under this section.

http://www.ohioema.org/robertt.htm

http://www.fema.gov/library/stafact.shtm


Bush implemented the Stafford Act on 9/11 for New York.

http://www.fema.gov/news/dfrn.fema?id=824

But not until 9/21 for the Pentagon.

http://www.fema.gov/news/dfrn.fema?id=823

I could have taken as many pictures as I wanted at the pier where the beams were loaded on barges. As I said, I could touch them, walk on them, talk to the crane operator, ask him whatever I wanted - he wanted to talk about it.

And lower Manhattan was shut down and then gradually re-opened over the course of the next few weeks and months. Excluding the many thousands of people who worked at the recovery site or lived in the WTC area.

And if you'll read your own post:

...light iron and non-ferrous materials are being sent to the Fresh Kills landfill on Staten Island for forensic review.

This is the problem with these ideas - and I am firm for LIHOP, just not this theory. THOUSANDS of people observed the whole thing, from impact to clean-up. But you think your observations from internet video are more valid.

The Fire Engineers were NOT given the opportunity to condust a full investigation according to their specifications.


“For more than three months, structural steel from the World Trade Center
has been and continues to be cut up and sold for scrap. Crucial evidence that
could answer many questions about high-rise building design practices and
performance under fire conditions is on the slow boat to China...."

http://www.americanfreepress.net/Conspiracy/Fire_Engineers_Call_WTC_Probe/fire_engineers_call_wtc_probe.html

Hauling beams to the waterfront or stacking them along freeways so you could "look at them" is NOT the same as having all the "scrap" (aka forensic evidence) available for laboratory testing.

analyzed by any and every scientist who felt inclined to analyze it.

Why?

My employer Wheeling Pittsburgh Steel produced some of the steel for the new WTC.

wonder how much they cost

$750 for a professional model

http://scientificsonline.com/search.asp?t=ss&ss=geiger&x=0&y=0

Click here for "HERO KERRY ZERO BUSH", "VETERAN KERRY AWOL BUSH" and other fair and balanced yet stunning, insulting, shocking, funny buttons, magnets and stickers

an "Atomic Pig"

Isn't that a pork sandwich with lots and lots of hot sauce and a few jalapeno or habanero peppers?

I supose -those triple alarm habaneros can get quite hot.

you're making me hungry.


I was thinking more like this (but then again, without proof . may as well be alien laser beams):

The Vatican has owned several of the major nuclear electric facilities in the U.S., Commonwealth Edison, Florida Power, and a facility near the nation's capitol. This ownership is illegal, since the Atomic Energy Act forbids foreign powers to own nuclear facilities inside the U.S. An associate of mine had her power arbitrarily cut off by Edison as a reprisal, after she petitioned the Atomic Energy Commission to deny Edison a new license for an additional nuclear electric facility, since Edison was owned by the Vatican, a foreign power. The Vatican ownership became an issue in Court, and she won a sizeable settlement from Edison. Eight major buildings downtown Chicago reportedly are not concerned about any power black-out. Why? Well, they reportedly have "atomic pigs" secretly installed in a sub-basement. The compact, nuclear submarine-type mechanism is called "atomic pig" because it is mounted on legs in a room 20 by 20 by 20 feet. Occupants of the office buildings have NOT been informed, on the theory that they might be unnecessarily alarmed. Only a handful of nuclear engineers in the U.S. who installed these mechanisms, are aware of the construction details. The entrances to these sub-basement rooms are some of the best kept secrets in the nation.

nt

Is when they come out the other end :hurts:

http://corpwatch.radicaldesigns.org/article.php?id=1608

Mysterious Shipments

"At least one shipload, onboard a vessel named Brozna, landed in the South Indian port city of Chennai in early January. The scrap was unloaded, as any routine consignment would be, by port workers with absolutely no protection. Two other ships, Shen Quan Hai and Pindos, also reported to be carrying World Trade Center scrap berthed and offloaded their cargo in Chennai. But preliminary investigations failed to reveal documentation linking the cargo to the Trade Center. Reports are vague about another shipment making its way into Northern India through the Western port city of Kandla.

Similar shipments have reportedly reached China, where Baosteel Group purchased 50,000 tons of the potentially toxic scrap. Malaysia and South Korea are also reported to have received shipments. Eventually, most of the 1.5 millions tons of scrap from the cleanup may end up dirtying Asian ports and threatening Asian workers."

"According to reports that we have heard since, there has been no comprehensive investigation. One expert in fire engineering concluded that there was virtually a nonexistent investigation. We haven't examined any aspects of the collapse that might have impacted rescue worker procedures even in this last month.

Second, reports have emerged that crucial evidence has been mishandled. Over 80 percent of the steel from the World Trade Center site has already been sold for recycling, much of it, if not all of it, before investigators and scientists could analyze the information."

-----------
"I am concerned that no clear protocol was in place for building investigators who were attempting to understand how the two buildings collapsed. While I understand that Ground Zero is first and foremost a crime scene and rescue area, we must also allow investigators the ability to fully examine evidence that will give us a greater understanding of why the buildings collapsed. I was disappointed to learn that investigators were unable to examine recovered pieces of steel from the Twin Towers before they were recycled."
--------------
"The FEM BPAT encountered numerous obstacles during its investigation, including an inability to examine the steel, either removed from the site during the early search and rescue work or shipped to recycling plants, and the denial of access to building design, construction, and maintenance documents."
----------------
"The American Society of Civil Engineers team, whose report is due in April, admits they may have lost data due to the decision to recycle the structural steel."
--------------------
"In the month that lapsed between the terrorist attacks and the deployment of the BPAT team, a significant amount of steel debris—including most of the steel from the upper floors—was removed from the rubble pile, cut into smaller sections, and either melted at the recycling plant or shipped out of the U.S. Some of the critical pieces of steel—including the suspension trusses from the top of the towers and the internal support columns—were gone before the first BPAT team member ever reached the site"
-----------------
"The efforts of NSF-funded researchers were impeded by the same obstacles the BPAT team encountered: an inability to examine the steel, either removed from the site during the early search and rescue work or shipped to recycling plants"

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/science/hsy77747.000/hsy77747_0f.htm

Goodbye steel and Fuck You investigation :hi:

One bent piece of steel is sitting on a granite foundation in a little park in the tiny little town of Bixby, OK which is immediately south of Tulsa.

I wonder how many other communities paid lots of money to have these kinds of momentos to hatred put on display to continually stir the fears and hatreds of their citizens.

It's easier than asking why these things happen, I guess.

http://news.globalfreepress.com/movs/wtc7.swf

move along NOTHING to see here...


peace

the vault was found.


http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11/01/nyregion/01VAUL.html?ex=1005682695&ei=1&en=bc2bc704717584d8