Is Lieberman Right About God And Politics?

Yesterday Lieberman said the following:



"These Oklahomans and people all over America should vote for me because I am an independent-minded Democrat," he said. "I am the one Democrat who can take Bush on where he's supposed to be strong -- security and mainstream values."

That would better position him to take on Bush's "right-wing agenda," Lieberman said.

Lieberman said his traditional values would make him stand out as the other candidates moved left. "To not be willing to speak from the core of mainstream values and occasionally mention God's name as a source of inspiration for our country, that's a mistake," he said.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=64064#64071

I'm curious to see how others think on this topic.

Is Lieberman right?

Should Democrats be more willing to "...speak from the core of mainstream values and occasionally mention God's name as a source of inspiration for our country..."?

Or am I wrong in being sick of politicians interjecting religion into politics at the drop of a hat these days?

I personally fear that one of this century's greatest threats is fundamentalism (of all stripes) and I fear that one of the few things holding back the turn towards Theocracy is the Democrats (in general) shying away from pandering to the Religious crowd at the expense of those who don't feel the same way when it comes to the Separation of Church and State.

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SO THE POLL QUESTION IS:

"Should Democrats be more willing to "...speak from the core of mainstream values and occasionally mention God's name as a source of inspiration for our country..."?

Whatever it takes to win, dude. That's why Republicans do it.

In the South, I think a Democrat would be flat-out stupid not to invoke god.

In the Northeast, that's another story.

Just play to the crowd you're in front of with God. I mean, the supreme deity is used as a tool of man anyway, might as well make him for work you.

One of the reasons why the right has been so successful in portraying itself as "The Party of God" is because the Dems have been so afraid to talk about anything religious, unless it involves prohibiting the govt from supporting it. Dems need to co-opt this issue the way Clinton co-opted so many (ex. tough on crime, fiscal responsibility, etc) of the Repukes claims. However, the Dems would need to be very careful in ensuring that they gave no aid or comfort to the Fundies.

As long as he doesn't make his decisions based on what "god wants". I know Carter used it, I also think Clinton may have used God, but we shouldn't elect a candidate based on whether they use religion or not.

I like to win but not that way but then I do say forget the gun thing for a while, so we all have our price, dont we?

in their inaugural addresses.

I don't have a problem with religious or secular folks just with Joe Lieberamn.

Some of the most effective liberal voices have been men of God- Martin Luther King and Jimmy Carter come to mind instantly.

what 'mainstream American values' are in a nation so broadly diverse, with so vast a gap between rich and poor, with so glorious a map of Ireland, England, Scotland, France, Germany, Czechoslovakia, Armenia, Niger, Egypt, Camaroon, Algeria, Angola, Namibia, Iraq, Turkey, Canada, Mexico, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Columbia, Venezuela and the rest of the planet painted on its features, with Christian and Jew and Muslim and Buddhist and atheist living cheeck to jowl, with homosexual and heterosexual and black and white and religious and non-religious still trying to figure out exactly what this big fucking experiment was supposed to be about in the first place, when a politician can articulate where 'mainstream American values' fit into that matrix, they will have my vote in a beat-down heartbeat.

I vote '?'

I agree completely with your thoughts on this subject. "mainstream American Values", usually translate to a "Father Knows Best" mom & apple pie vision. The only difference between "maintstream American Values" and "Traditional American Values" is that appropriately religious Jews are allowed to be "mainstream".

All the same shit! You can plug in whatever word or phrase best evokes that Norman Rockwell Americana feeling among the populace to the formula: "____________ VALUES" and paint yourself as the champion of good old fashioned morality... down-home character and integrity... ad infinitum, ad nauseum...

Bottom line, in a diverse culture such as modern America, there is no way to distill "values" of any form that can be replicated to the betterment of all citizens.

One of my favorite pre-'911 conversion' Dennis Miller comments concerning "Family Values":

"The term 'Family Values' has become a bigger catch-all than the front of Rush Limbaugh's shirt after an all-you-can-eat nacho blowout."

my reasons are quite simple.
it is very offensive to me.
if a candidate spoke of their inspiration coming from God that would be one thing, but to suggest that somehow the U.S. came about from some divine order...that's offensive.
and it raises many questions. whose god? where do those who don't believe fit in(?) if a candidate can't seperate his religious beliefs as being purely his own, recognize that the U.S. is made up of peoples from varying beliefs, honor the seperation between church and state, support and respect diversity, they won't receive my support in return.

the candidates should be looking to Chretian as an example,imho.
he has been able to seperate his Catholic self from Chretian the leader.

Lieberman is publically pious, but he reminds me of those people (you know them) who go to church every Sunday but don't have a scrap of spirituality about them, same with Bush.

Carter was geniune in his beliefs, but I don't recall him invoking God publically for political gain. He also lived his faith by performing good works.

I don't trust the publically pious, in that I agree with Lyndon Johnson that when someone comes around talking about God, be sure to keep your hand on your wallet.

I'm f***ing SICK OF HEARING ABOUT RELIGION. People PLEASE KEEP YOUR PIETY TO YOURSELVES. I'M SO TIRED OF HEARING ABOUT IT.

.

But one more of political tactics. Joe's free to speak about God as much as he wants, but is he right that other politicians should be doing more of it?

Skittle's expressed a general dislike of all religious speech.

If the religious are right, then we need more religious talk so people can learn of it's utility. If the religious are wrong, then we need more religious talk so people can learn of it's faults.

We need more religion like a fish needs a bicycle. Religion is a cause of great pain throughout the world. If you want religion ~ fine ~ just keep it to yourself. Why do people like you insist on shoving your beliefs down others throats?

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Why do we need to keep our religion to ourselves? It's part of who we are. I don't keep my blackness to myself an I won't keep my Christianity there either.

:shrug: And we wonder why the world is in the shape it is..

Am I in charge of the world? Nope, not hardly. I am my own master however. If you aren't your own master, don't blame me if I influence you to find God. But I force no one.

The religious are not going to shut up, no matter how strongly you believe we should.

but I'm sick of it nonetheless. AND PLEASE KEEP RELIGION OUT OF POLITICS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Religion is part of who most people are. Would you have them pretend otherwise?

People come to my DOOR! ENOUGH ALREADY!

but God prefers, I'm sure, to remain way in the background. The more I hear His name used, the less likely it is that He has influenced your life, IMHO.

If not, how do you know what he wants?

Whose God exactly?

This kind of God talk is code. What he means is the God of white middle and upper class Americans. You know, the kind of God that hates gays.

think Bill Clinton's, Jimmy Carter's , the Reverand Al Sharpton's God hate gays.

...for Lieberman and folks who feel as he does to simply say things like..."mention god's name as a source of inspiration for many people in our country" and shit like that instead of trying to make it always sound so monolithically Judeo-Christian?

majority of voters who don't vote because they've found the hard way that they loose no matter who wins. Most among my own acquaintances in that group would seem to pay about as much attention to propaganda from pulpits as from politicians.

You're a disgrace. Republican Lite my ass!

who were mostly Deists and believed that God/Goddess had nothing to do with events today.

God is used to commit the greatest government sponsored crimes in history and that is why our Founding Fathers and Mothers wanted God out of government.

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

Somewhat of a contrast to Joe's idea.

is a just war in spite of the lies that got us into that war because
we are only killing arabs/muslims and his God knows that all arabs/muslims are terrorists unlike Israelis who are clean, moral and just when they kill unarmed children.

His God also knows that tax cuts for the rich increases the economic prosperity of the country because if you are unemployed and poor you are a moral failure anyway.Who says so? Lieberman's God told him so and Lieberman wouldn't lie to you because he gets his instructions from God.

Aren't we all glad that Lieberman is putting in a good wrod for all of us with God?

That proves something doesn't it? You can either be a fool or a damned fool(like the winner).

We got enough problems of our own creating. Let's find some solutions of our own devising. God (whatever that is) has nothing to do with it.

This is a secular nation. Plainly speaking this means on the matter of religion there can be no official position. The people that do not believe in a god are a significant number in this country. A low estimate of just the atheists (not counting nontheist religions) places them at around 10% of the US population. If you can rip 5 stars off the flag, get rid of 5 states, and not call it disenfranchising Americans then by all means let your elected officials bring as much theological rhetoric as they want to. Personally I don't think we can afford to offend 5 states worth of citizens and probably should respect everyone equally.

:silly:


:hippie:

To quote Jesse Ventura: "Atheists, too, are part of this country."

And there are a hell of a lot more of us. Do you want to win in 2004 or just look pretty?

...but what's the point if nobody gives a damn about separation of church and state?

And I don't say people should pledge "One nation under Murray" and that the national motto should be "god is a myth." I only say that the US should be ideologically neutral - not a theocracy, not an officially atheist state, just a neutral i.e. secular one.

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

Of course old Tom wasn't running against that awesome and elegant master of articulation George..uh..dubya...uh..Bush.

Perhaps Joe should take to wearing a stetson and cowboy boots so that he can purvey his love of "mainstream American Values" even more profoundly.

apply that to all groups

For a secular politician to proclaim himself possessed of an insight of "God's will" smacks of a theocracy, not a democracy.

I have no problem with a politician who exhorts others to "listen to their conscience" -- since I view G*d's role as informing the individual, not the state.

For me, it's G*d -> We The People -> Government
not G*d -> Government -> We The People !

Joe doesn't seem to understand his role.

about their beliefs. Candidates open themselves to questions about other invocations such as their military record (Remember Pat Robertson's alleged service in Korea?), their "business" background, (a few politicians in jail because of that), their "common folk" upbringing, (like dubya's alleged love and understanding of the "common folk" while being the scion of millionaire parents who could buy him out service in Vietnam). Thus it should be for those placing their religious beliefs to the fore:

1. Which "God"? Jehovah? Jesus? Allah? Bob the Rain God?
2. How will your belief in the said God influence your decisions?
Apparently, Jesus' words about casting the first stone had little influence on "Christian" Bush when he OK'd all those death sentences.
3. Does your belief in a particular God/religion slant your view of other's beliefs? "Put no other God before me." "There is but one God, Allah." "Salvation is only through Jesus". (Note: Forgive the somewhat innacurate quotes - you get the drift.)
4. Do you believe in separation of church and state? Please elaborate on what that entails.
5. What religious organizations do you contribute money to, and what links do they have to: Politics? Crime? Business? Terrorism? other countries?
6. Do you support all of the teachings of your religion? If not, why not? i.e. Executing women (not men) for adultery.

And so on. If they are going to brandish their religion as a means to win votes, why should they not be responsible for answering questions about their beliefs?