How much do you hate Ralph Nader?

If seeing a picture of Ralph with pie all over his face has evoked an emotional response, tell us at what level that feeling was?

Too bad it wasn't a nuklur pie!

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He's blamed for Bush*'s crimes the way Nader blamed the Dems for Repuke crimes.

that they scream the same slogan at dems concerning the 2000 election. "get over it"

because they are too flacid to take on the real evil in this country.

heaven forbid you actually try to participate in what is supposed to be a democracy, but i guess we never really had a democracy in the first place.

never mind the fact that the DLC types supported anything their corporate masters told them too and hence let the democratic base wallow in ineffective complacency.

it's all naders fault! yea, that's the ticket.

The most useless bunch of voters in the nation assume we don't participate in democracy.

it's all naders fault! yea, that's the ticket.

Please report to the Green Processing Center ASAP. Something is wrong with your programming. It's "all the Dems fault". You must have some wires crossed

your post makes no sense at all

who said you don't participate in democracy?
are you implying that i said that because i pointed
out the fact that you hate nader for participating?

what twisted logic.

But he certainly plaued a role.

ANd before you start making fun of Dem's keep in mind you are defending a party that likes to take cheap shots but cries foul when your target fights make. Bunch of sissies.

all i'm saying is these pathetic posts constantly attacking nader and talking about kicking him in the balls and all kinds of other stupid shit is lame, sad, and weak.

it's analagous to getting beat up at school by the school bully and then coming home and beating up on your little brother because you don't have the guts to fight back against the school bully.

Nader running his trap now shows that he intended to split the Democratic vote and give Bush a shot at stealing the election if it were close enough! I think there was cheating going on all over the country in 2000! I know it happened here in WV! GET OVER IT if you voted for Ralph Bush is your booby prize!

but I guess success gave him a swelled head over the years.

:evilfrown:

get myself a CORVAIR!!!

serves the egomatnical %@ right!

...but none of you have much to say about what really cost the party the election.

- How about devoting some this 'energy' towards fighting those who actually did the crime?

We actually have democrats fighting each other because of their illegal coup. One looks for psychological explanations rather than political. Like when you idealize your drunken father as a great man-the pain is too great.

My vote as well...

Carlos on a Nader thread -- it's like an old, familiar security blanket: you can always count on it being there.

The only Democrats who even deserve to be at the same table with him are the Kucinich/Lee/Stark/McDermott types.

It's another thread specifically designed to bring out the best in people. Time to go get a rabies shot.

What do you mean? I thought this was an original idea: get Greens and Dems to flame each other. That's never happened on DU before. We should try it more often.

Personally, I can't stand civil and rational debate, backed up with solid evidence. I think it's much more important in a Democracy to scream at each other and call each other assholes.

I simply disagree with his strategy and believe so far it has been disastrous and will continue to be.

That's why I despise him.

:eyes:

Maybe Nader was trying to help Democrats? The Green party gave Ralph a perfect position to carp at DLC Democrats, while not truly committing to Green party ideals.

PROBLEM IS...if most people on this website, and many other Democrats polled on their actual political ideology, they would find themselves most resembling the Green party. That's the biggest reason for Nader to support Greens. Maybe fiscally he agrees with their "liberal" policies. Should we employ DLC economics?

These twits who bash Nader, most of whom havent read or heard much of anything he has actually written or spoken, excepting Carlos of course who exhaustively combs Naders speeches for distorted cut and pastes, will continue to sink with the ship.....

I can see it in '04, not having the intellect, energy or balls to fix their ailing democratic party, resulting in another GOP romp, these same folks will continue to bash any convenient public figure or circumstance rather than face the truth of what Ralph has been saying for years now........

I just wish he would go away. To Nepal or something, and stay there.

and nothing but contempt for those who would scapegoat him for all the shortfalls of the Democratic party.

I think the occasional pie in the face would do some good to ANY politician. :P

Yes, lets send off one of America's greatest consumer advocates who has accomplished more for people than most Democratic politicians ever will off to Napal. Sounds like a winning strategy! This is why liberals will never get their issues into the mainstream. I vote Democrat if I like the Democrat and Green if I like the Green. I am a liberal and I don't owe my vote to a moderate or any party, this is a Democracy and the founding fathers warned about having ANY political parties to begin with. If I agree with a Dem on most issues I will vote for the Democrat. Maybe Democrats can work on voter registration, getting ex-felons their voting rights back, energizing their base, come up with an opposing platform ect. rather than blaming Nader for everything when like 80% of Nader voters would not have voted for either major party to begin with. There is a reason half this country no longer votes. Also, if Democrats and Republicans really cared about a party being a spoiler they would pass IRV voting but they never iwll because they like to scare their bases into loyalty since they certainly don't wint hem with their policies.

I said I don't think Nader deserves a pie in the face any more than any other egomaniacal politician.

Sigh. Just an indication that the rightwing of the Democratic Party is still as clueless as ever.

Ralph gets a pie for attacking Bush's policies. Democratic candidates who voted for them get applause. As does the DLC strategy of moving to the right that lost Gore the election

What's wrong with this picture?

...(fill in the blank) 'cost Gore the election'.

- Here's what 'cost' the election: The Bush* family, Neocon Supreme Court and those who took over the GOP in the 80s and 90s.

- Know thy enemy.

why? oh why? aren't there threads every single day as it should be bashing those 5 freaking traitors what is wrong here? are we falling through the looking glass?

I've been here since the selection and I have never seen a thread

'The treasonist supreme court 5 bash here'

have you?

I agree let's end it! I've seen it long enough and overlooked it long enough.
This is what they want we are giving em' what they want!! :argh:


This is just one more added to the many wedge issues that divides people and this as the other ones will keep us ALL down!

Sorry people but the freaking boot is on all of our necks here. I'm blowing steam but guess what these threads aren't going to turn me off from still working to get the boot off of all of our necks. I still care!

Thta is a very telling phrase. Apparently, it is the Democrats who are Nader's enemy, not the Republicans.

you should have added the neodemocratic conservatives who refused to allow the party to act like an opposition party for the last three years. These vichy democrats , these quislings, have betrayed ,not only the dmeocrats of this nation, but the entire two party system.

Nader is only a tool they use to sidestep any hard looks at the flaws and warts of their precious GOP-lite party.....

Or attacking Democrats!? He attacked Democrats plain and simple. Paul Wellstone included.

I thought that's what Greens were all about.

more than silverware!
more than the metric system!
more than the japanese!
more than the number five!

less than aluminum though, maybe. i'm not quite sure about aluminum.

Yeah, yeah Nader took away the votes etc. However, don't just ignore the important message Nader delivered and is continuing to deliver. The corporatist faction of the Democratic Party--our "friends" at the DLC--has cheapened the Democratic message. The DLC is "allied" with the Republicans to push for the complete extermination of Jefferson. The DLC and the Republicans (most Republicans) strive for a plutocracy--Hamilton's dream. It is not simply: "business bad, worker good." It is, unchecked and unaccountable corporations violate our rights as citizens. I believe a necessary step is to purge the Democratic party of the DLC in order to return us to our moral center. I mean, comon, Joe Lieberman is a Republican for crying out loud. Why is he running in our primaries?

ok....I'm with ya...please post more

I share all out of his stances on the issues, does it mean I will support him in the 2004 election(if he runs)? No, I might think about it if Lieberman is the nominee or some other third party candidate. Now, we didn't "lose" the election because of Nader, we lost the election because the Judges in the Supreme Court's Vote Counted

And he's like a God to me!

;-)

(That would be "get over it already"...)

if Bush won as a result of his (Nader's) running because it was the principle that mattered I decided that we were dealing with an egomaniacal f***wit.

I'm a big believer in principle, and have acted with apparent rashness many times because of the mere principle of a situation. There's a limit, though, beyond which honoring a principle can be self- and otherwise destructive. Certainly someone who'd sacrifice the United States, and endanger the entire world (and isn't that what's happened?) for the sake of 'principle' is not the kind of President I'd want. What a doofus.

I don't hate him, but I'm far from his biggest fan. I'm just not attracted to narcissistic egomaniacs. Really, though, I think he's now kind of a non-issue.

right wing DEMS, not Nader....

:hi:

that's because you two are young left-wing extremists :P

What a coward, and he agreed with monkey boy on most of the debates!!!

THIS IS WHY NADER WAS RUNNING.

TO SLAP THE DONKEY FROM GOING TO THE RIGHT.

I WANTED to vote for Ralph Nader in 2000, but didnÕt.

I voted AGAINST BUSH and not FOR Lieberman and Bore in 2000.

A center right Democrat will not get the Progressive vote and therefore lose in 2004.

IsnÕt the election of 2000 proof enough of this?

Democrats need to stop this entitlement mentality and take responsibility for earning the progressive vote.

This is supposed to be a democracy

If a Democratic would have run to the left of the center, there would be less of a need for a Nader candidate.

"The differences make a difference."

Don't forget that on election day!

Sorry, not cake, pie.

NT

and your buddy From agrees with you

http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?cp=3&kaid=86&subid=84&contentid=2919

"The assertion that Nader's marginal vote hurt Gore is
not borne out by polling data." -- Al From

By swinging the election to * when he knew that was what the consequence of his candidacy would be makes him responsible for the slaughter in Iraq. Under Al Gore there would have been no war.

I hope Ralph Nader is enjoying his Bush taxcut.

dont EVEN try to blame that shit on Ralph...Even IF Ralph Nader swung the election, how the FUCK do you explain pandering, mealy-mouthed, spineless fucking Democrats since 2001?!?!?! Blame that on Nader too, why dontcha. Its obvious you cant figure out whats wrong with the Democratic party so you find the LEAST LITTLE SCAPEGOAT to consume you ALL THE WHILE you don't pay attention to how bad your guys suck.

If it wasn't such a Freep-tacular, I'd be astonished.

So I won't waste the time--California is a safe Democratic state in 2004. Go ahead and do your little crusade. I only spend the time trying to change minds of swing state people.

Nader says:

"After November we're going to go after the Congress in a very detailed way, district by district. We're going to beat them in every possible way. If Democrats are winning 51 to 49 percent, we're going to go in and beat them with Green votes. They've got to lose people, whether they are good or bad."
-- October 30, 2000 In These Times magazine. The Article

"The Democrats are going to have to lose more elections. They didn't get the message last time." -- March 2000, Common Dreams The Article

Know thy enemy alright.

I am beginning to believe that this election would have been stolen no matter who was involved. It is becoming apparent that the planning for the new world reich has been in the works for decades. That little interruption with the Clinton presidency and eight years of peace and prosperity was only a minor setback.

He is an accomplice in all of this.

Here is my response to the whole nader/pie thing:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=172550#174119

Comes down to this: I am green because I believe in liberal principles and true democracy. I tire of the DLC/ gelding dem BS. And, my local Dem party mind as well be the Communist Party of Cuba. To affect real change locally, I HAVE to work outside the gated city.

However, I am not a narcissistic know-it-all crybaby who can't take a harmless prank or can't admit when he screwed up. These are two major flaws that will ensure that guys like Nader will never be president. Just because your ideas is good, doesn't make you superior to others.



- Cappa

and blind to his actions......

huh? huh? huh?

I live in the same damn town as Holy Joe and most of us wouldn't wish his bland boring brand of corporatism on anyone--- besides, he's CT's number one Washington whore for the insurance industry, HMO's and weapons manufacturers.

My faves happen to be Sharpton and Kuicinich, as they align most with my issues.


However, I realize that most of the country does not share my views and neither of these guys have the kind of stuff it takes to take a hostile war zone like DC. Dennis would end up a poor man's Jimmy Carter, a well meaning dude who didn't do alot. And sharpton--- well, no matter how much I agree with him, the good reverend isn't going to win over too many voters, Black or White. But, they're both usually on the side of the angels and they have a fire in their belly.


The rest are kind of.......blah. Gephardt and Livingston don't excite. Kerry and Edwards seem to be in competition for who can do the best Bill Clinton impersonation. And is Carol Mossley-Braun on lithium-- she seems spaced out half the time she's in a debate. I like her politics (mostly) but she's like she's going through the motions.



Honestly, Howard Dean is the best out the bunch. Dean isn't great, good but not great. He's certainly left of Clinton/Gore, which will be an improvement over the current crowd of thugs we have now. Also, he's not one to take alot of shit. It will be helpful when Karl Rove and Dick Cheney through everything at him, including the kitchen sink.


Back to the Greens, Nader is even less appealing to most voters than Kucinich and Sharpton. He's also got an ego that deserves its own zip code and alot of ticks and quirks that Karl Rove could easily pick apart-- if Nader weren't such a mockery of self and his party actually had any real political capital to spend on residential race.



- Cappa

"He is, I believe, an authoritarian, a man on a white horse, and I for one, hope that he will never ride into the White House." -- David Sanford, Nader's former editor, 1976

http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm

Hate him because he tells it the way it is? Nah. I admire the guy.

He's full of crap and venom. Some confuse that with 'truth'.

thats the democrat in you speaking.

:hi:

And, is there something wrong with being a Democrat here at 'democratic'underground? Or, are the Green Party voters the only 'evolved progressives' here? :eyes:

What you didn't know when you voted for Hypocrite Nader;

http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm

Let's hope more of the Greens catch on (as Michael Moore and others have recently) and decide to vote for the winning Democrat in 2004.

Why vote Democrat you ask;

http://www.mikehersh.com/printer_Why_Vote_Straight_Democrat.shtml

http://www.allencountydemocrats.org/deminfo-democrats.htm

Why not vote Democrat;

http://www.angelfire.com/space/pearly/htmls/gop-vote.html

And, in the words of Granny D... http://grannyd.com/speech20030308.htm

"In the 2004 presidential election, we must not split our vote between Greens and Democrats. I know the Greens have party building to do, but, if Mr. Bush wins again, there will be no America for them to build their party in. So they must defer this time and earn our respect and admiration for doing so." ~ Granny D March 8, 2003

By the way, if a Green Party candidate was in the best position to beat Bush in 04 I would not hesitate to punch the chad in favor of ???

show that there are nearly as many active political opponents of Democrats on this board as there are Democrats. Say it isn't so. I'm sorry I looked.

because some of us (me for one) answered with sarcasm
and others (also like myself) don't regard Ralph as the Prince of Darkness.

:(

many factors contributed to Gore not winning the presidency outright--despite his win of the popular vote--which have nothing to do with Nader.
1) The Butterfly ballot in Palm Beach County which caused many people to vote accidentally for Buchanan and after they saw there mistake to vote for Gore rather than request a new ballot--these ballots alone which were thrown out would have given Gore the electoral votes of Florida and the presidency.

2) Gore's inability to carry his own homestate with 11 electoral votes. Nader wasn't a factor in Tennessee.

3) Gore's inability to carry a dependably Democratic state like West Virginia. Its five electoral votes would have given Gore the election. Look at the statistics--Gore ignored this state for most of the election while Bush and/or Cheney made frequent stops in August and September. Gore only paid attention really in October.

4) Despite running a generally progressive campaign Gore allowed himself to be defined by the media. He changed his persona for every debate. He never learned how to be comfortable as himself.

Sure Nader contributed to his losing New Hampshire and causing such usually solid dem states as Minnesota, Wisconsin, Oregon, and Iowa to be closer than expected--but many factors played a role not the least being the Supreme Court of the United States which in a 5-4 decision selected Bush and didn't let the state of Florida finish counting all the ballots.