Enough of the Catholic bashing! NOW!

I originally posted this here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=197370&mesg_id=198153&page=

But I decided that it needed it's own thread. And a little revision.

So here goes.

Please, enough of the Catholic bashing. I was born Catholic, my bloodline is near 100% Catholic, and while I don't agree with all the tenets of the Church, it is ingrained in me and part of my culture and heritage.

So I get offended when somebody goes on a Catholic-bashing rant, which happens all too often here.

Catholicism is one of the most widespread and durable religions in the world. it is not Scientology or the Moonies or some obscure cult. For millions, it is a part of their life. And mocking it is no different than mocking somebody for their nationality or skin color. It is wrong, and everyone on this board should be above this.

But Catholicism has been bashed for centuries. It was widespread when my Irish ancestors came over here during the potato famine, and it seems to still be going on.

We should all know that no one religion (or 'non-religion') is suprerior to another. Maybe in your mind, but not overall.

I get incensed as much as anyone when I hear about another scandal rocking the church. But that is primarily, but not completely, a church problaem. And one they must correct.

Let's continue with the good above-ground debating, and leave the Catholic bashing to lesser minds like Freak Republic.

I have only been posting on this board for a couple weeks. Have visited for a long time, but just as a lurker. Treid to sign up once, but for some reason never got confirmation in my email box. So my original moniker, "Irish68", is lost among the electrons of cyberspace. Got sidetracked and didn't follow through. But now, thanks to my dog, I have a new moniker that stuck, and got confirmed. So begat 'Rat Terrier'. I am not here as jsut some Clark spammer, but rather as someone who'se voted democrat since being old enough to vote, and one that wants to make GWB a one-term president.

One poster got tombstoned for bashing Dean and getting a little hostile, defensive and heated with a few posters. But does this happen with any of the Catholic bashers? No.

When my preferred candidate (as of this moment it is Clark) is bashed, I do not take it personally. When my heritage is bashed, I do. This kind of attacking is very narrow-minded and immature.

I'm Irish-Catholic and proud of it!

Most of DUers agree with the Catholic Church's positions on gun control, the environment, workers/union rights, taxes, economic issues, death penalty, criminal justice system, war in Iraq, and a myriad of social/economic issues.

Guess what people!!! You will not agree with an institution on every issue!!!
That is the way life is.

Some Democrats are so dense to realize that the Catholic Church's positions on MOST issues are more Democratic than Republican.

.

For licensing, registration, no assault weapons, etc....

A good resource is www.americancatholic.org

Sorry, you are sadly mistaken on this issue.

but those issues are not the ones that the church will use to threaten politicians with. You will not find too many right wing pols being threatened with loss of support.....only the left wing because of abortion and homosexuality.

Not to be a jerk but I've always been curious as to when people refer to their religion (whatever religion) as part of their ethnicity or "blood". I mean religion is something you choose and can adopt or disavow at any point. Your ethnicity or your bloodline you cannot no matter how much you may want to.

I think that is where a lot of the issues come in for me. Personally the choices I make I accept that I may have to defend against attack and that people may or may not make the same choices. But ultimately if I don't like the heat I can choose to either stand and rationally defend that choice or disavow that choice completly if I am unable to defend it rationally.

I don't know. Just my opinion but then again I'm not a catholic basher (for the record I was raised in the church and my parents and brother are still devout).

I was having this conversation with my mother the other day about converting religions. The Catholics in my family (and I'm one of them) believe that once you are baptized a Catholic, that's it. There is no changing or switching. You are a lifer. You are only out if you are excommunicated and that is a really big deal.

Getting back to talking with mom, I asked her how she felt about someone who converted from Judaism to Catholicism. She said they were Catholic. I asked her the same thing about Catholicism to Judaism. She said they were really a Catholic. I know that there are other religions that feel the same way and many that do not. The point is that that is why people say it's in the "bloodlines."

Being Italian, the Church and it's rituals were entwined with our culture, at times with great aethetic sensitivity.

I think what the poster just meant was: "I come from a long line of Catholics."


In the USA so many of us have lost touch with our ethnic heritage that we at times attempt to replace it with our religion.

...religion is part of it.

Not the whole.

That is very different from what you are now claiming you said. "Bloodline" is genetics, so even your wiggling out of what you said is incorrect.

Nearly 100% of my ancestors were Catholic.

So fucking what?

Why can't you accept the fact that religious heritage IS actually part of our culture?

And I would like to carry on my cultural heritage. Got a problem with that?

You are disgracing the Church you are trying to defend. It is clear you do not understand Culture, Genetics, or Catholicism. You have revealed yourself with that comment. How very sad.

You never gave your background.

What makes you so high and mighty?

What makes you say I'm a disgrace?

I guess I might have to finally use the 'ignore' feature...

of an incredible education, and stressed keeping my mind open.
One last thought. If all Christian's steal is it OK for me to steal?
That seems to be your defense of profanity.

Mine only goes to 10.

Hmmmf!

give him a break. I understood what he was talking about. ;-)

Thank you.

Black and white thinking is so 'neocon'.

As in "you are with us or you are with the terrorists."

just as some hate the ambiguity of how we identify ourselves and our cultural heritage

Went to St. Catherine's grade school and St. Francis de Salles High school (Toledo Ohio). It doesn't bother me in the least.

Bob D.

You aren't Catholic anymore so bash away! What do you care for those that still are.

Maybe the "bashing" doesn't rattle his faith. Maybe his faith is more than the institution of the Church?

And maybe some of us are sick of being attacked by all sides in this country. The RW attacks the church and so does the left. Maybe just maybe I'm sick of it.

You got a problem with that? Too damn bad. If he has the right to say bash away I have the right to say otherwise.

with the martyr act on every discussion about the Church. You seem to confuse the religion with the Church.

but I also have a lot of respect for it and will not sit by while people unfairly attack it. It still helps more people then any other org a day and is the source of much good in the world.

I am the first to lash out when it screws up and I have currently suspended all donations and stopped attending mass. However I will not demonize the enitre church which I believe is filled with with mostly good people.

being born into the faith myself, I relate to your cultural connection and have a sense when criticism starts to cross that line. But I suffer no illusions about this pope and his opus dei hierarchy --he will never represent the conception of what a true Catholic, in the sense of Dorothy Day and the Catholic Worker, represents to me.

Oops, wrong "dei" ;-)

As someone who was born and rasied Catholic and who regularly attends mass, I am going to make an analogy that I hope will hold water. There are positions within the Catholic Church that I do not agree with. I view that as my right as a Catholic. I know the pope is infallible in matters of the Church but maybe I am too stubborn and/or cynical and/or independent to go along with every pronouncement. I criticize the Church when something comes up that I happen to agree with, like allowing priests to marry. However, as soon as a non-Catholic starts bashing and criticizing it's like I am suddenly the defender of the faith. These people haven't lived within the Church and are, quite often, operating on rumor or conjecture.

As an aside, I've also noticed that when I encounter a lapsed Methodist, Presbyterian, etc. and ask them their religion, they often say "I used to be X but now I consider myself agnostic" or something to that effect. However, a lot of the people I encounter who were raised Catholic but haven't been in a Church except of Christmas and Easter still consider themselves Catholic.

been there, done that.

Catholic grade school
Catholic High School - Jesuit taught

final 2 years at Catholic University.

Irish, even have two Ireland Arch bishops in family tree.


SOOOOoooooo I'm not anti-Catholic, BUT I'm anti-Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is corrupt, and that should not be surprise
to anyone. The Catholic Church has been finacially corrupt for
centuries.

Now we find out it has also been morally corrupt with the criminal
cover-up of sex crimes by priests, A cover-up that is "ok'd" by
the Pope himself.


So I have NOT seen ANY Catholic bashing here at DU. Only the
sensitive over reactions of those who would prefer to ignore
a flaw so ennomous that campares to The Inquisition.

so.....bash away at the messengers. The Church's coverup of
1000s of sex crimes

I have seen posts that were (not so) cleverly designed to argue dogma/doctrine. This is not appropriate for DU for one thing.

Another thing, while I can see the scandals being discussed and other such topics (i.e. opus dei) I just can't believe there is a place for dotrine talk etc. Nor do I understand the believers who proclaim "You have to leave your church, you support (whatever)."

Pardon me but as a member of the godless I would like to point out that no religion is without "sin". Considering all are based on the bible, and knowing full well what the content of that is, well frankly it's laughable that one group considering it of God expends much energy and effort attacking another.

Let me put it to you this way, if I were to come in here and write a post in a similar style I have seen regarding the RCC, but addressing say......the bible, or Christianity, would you all be just as willing to accept it because I included many "explanations" of criticism over bashing?

My guess: no. I'd quickly be thrown into the religion-haters column. I don't believe in any religion. I feel no need to hold one over another, but then again, I don't feel compelled to get into peoples' faces with the attitude that my way of thinking on this topic is better than theirs.

One more difference, unlike some (and I don't necessarily mean you here IB) I am not a bitter ex-Catholic. I don't see why we don't leave folks to believe what they want in peace. That's not liberal/progressive and, from what I recall of the bible, this sort of self-righteousness isn't something Jesus was promoting.

Julie

I've seen people directly blame the congregation of the Catholic Chruch as well as those that simply call all religious persons dumb for having fatih. So please, before you come here and justify the actions of bigots perhaps you should open your eyes and have a look around.

The catholic chruch has made some serious mistakes that it will have to deal with. However to say the church is entirely corrupt and compeletly morally corrupt is insane.

1- Name a organization 1 billion strong that has no corruption?

2- Name a organization that helps more people a day then the morally corrupt Catholic Church.

The pope was NOT involved in the cover up, there is no evidence at all of that. Only a dubious old document that no one will actually show us.

is no place for a thin skin. All of the various mythologies/religions get bashed at one time or another as do all of the candidates. You have the ability to ignore posters you find offensive and the ability to stop reading a thread or post when you find it offensive.

BTW , what makes Catholicism any more valid then the Moonies or Scientology (or is this just an implied bash on your part? sure sounds like one).

Enough of the bashing bashing!!! NOW!!

But isn't it a double-standard getting tombstoned for bashing a candidate and not for a large group of people?

While my word choices may look like I'm runing away mortified, that is not what I meant. I did not edit the post, except for a few additions.

I usually laugh at Catholic and Irish jokes. But oinly if they're funny. :)

Granted, the Catholic church needs to take a check-up from the neck up. But criticizing Catholics themselves is nonetheless bashing, and a bigger deal than bashing someone who supports a particular candidate.

That is a cop out. It's nothing more then an excuse for hateful behavior that would be unacceptable anywhere else.

I've also noticed that those that preach this cop out response don't practice what they preach. Make fun of their lack of belief and they quickly take offense or accuse you of forcing your beliefs on them.

is no place for discussion on the particulars of religion. No religion is better than another and I won't list any that may be considered less than mainstream.

This is not the place for it period.

Julie

If the Catholic Church doesn't want the criticism of U.S. political activists, then it can just stay out of U.S. politics.

"And mocking it is no different than mocking somebody for their nationality or skin color. It is wrong, and everyone on this board should be above this."

Religious affiliation, particularly as it applies to bureaucracies and institutions, is a choice, not a genetic legacy. And like membership in any elective organization, it is fair game for discussion.

That said, welcome! :D

My ancestors had to go through a lot when they came here. There was much Irish and Catholic bashing. After the Irish came the Italians and Spanish. More bashing.

And I guess Islam isn't a culture, but just another religion that should be bashed. I know that htere are good Muslims and bad ones. But I wouldn't bash the whole religion.

I'm making a vague generalization here, but I guess you consider Ann Coulter correct when she says that Muslims should be converted to Christianity. Screw their culture and heritage!

Of course, we can change our religion. But religion is also culture.

That really is a problem for an atheist. What does your culture think of me?

Wait don't answer. You think we are all mindless sheep.

So spare me.

Hey Chill, I don't remember calling you anything.

I defend my beliefs on the basis that they don't do anyone harm. I assumed you'd do the same.

You can believe whatever you want, but don't expect me to give it any more credence than any other fairy tale. I can't or I'd not be true to my beliefs. If that irritates you I'm sorry. I'm an equal opportunities basher. I think all institutionalised religions are bunk.

"I'm an equal opportunities basher." I like that phrase. :7

but look you did in your last paragraph simply because I pointed out the hypocrisy in your position.

I think all "religious institutions are bunk"?

That's like saying "I think horoscopes are bunk". It says nothing of those that wish to follow their horoscopes when making decisions. You seem to be projecting.

When called on your crap you always back peddle and try to pretend you're innocent. You did not simply say "religious institutions are bunk" and of coruse you know this, but allow me to refresh your memory anyway.

You can believe whatever you want, but don't expect me to give it any more credence than any other fairy tale.

Fairy tale? Do adults having adult conversations call eachothers beliefs fairy tales? No. But then again you stated.....

I'm an equal opportunities basher.

Which is like a KKK member stating he doesn't hate blacks, he hates all non whites because he's an equal opportunity racist.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I am a Catholic and my only concern with atheists is that I'd like to know that you tried to believe in God; that you thought about it and just couldn't make it work for you. I assume that is how one comes to be an atheist.

That said, I'll buy you a beer in heaven because those fire and brimstone, hell and damnation Christians won't be having as much fun.

Maybe that's the point for me.

"that I'd like to know that you tried to believe in God".

Why would I? I see nothing that leads me to believe that there is a God, apart from people in various finery telling me there is. Perhaps it's a "feeling" thing. At a spiritual level I feel we are utterly alone. It's not an issue for me, I just have to rely on people rather than "faith".

The old: Practice what you preach.

Perhaps you did attempt to see a world that was free of God. If that is what you suggest for the atheist's among us, you should expect the same from yourself. That would be more in the mode of the Saint Francis pray: "Lord help me to seek to understand others, not seek that they work to understand me."

St. Augustine once wrote that any believer who does not experience doubt in God is suffering from arrogance. I think his statement holds true for atheists too: Any atheist who does not ever experience the thought that there may be a God is suffering from arrogance.

it didn't work

...(something to the effect of) "...on this I stand. I can do no other."

I think some of these "stop the bashing" threads contain evidence of the poster's illusions of grand martyrdom.

There are many ways to worship God if that is your choice. You are completely free to approach him as you will...you just don't know it.

But if it makes you feel like less of a bigot to think religion is nothing more then joinging a soccer team then I can't stop you.

a bit pouty.

Now that you've resorted to one of the cheapest forms of name-calling (shall I now refer to you as a typical "anti-bigot bigot?") it's clear you have nothing of substance to add to the discussion.

If you don't think that your form of worship and the means by which you choose to engage God are elective, than you don't know what you're talking about. Let me know when the scientists isolate that Catholic gene they've been looking for.

Enjoy your faux martyrdom and your fabulous cross logo. Though all the really fabulous crosses and crucifixes, dripping with gold and diamonds and rubies, are in the vaults of the Vatican, glittering uselessly while millions suffer and starve and die.

(shall I now refer to you as a typical "anti-bigot bigot?")

Many of the greatest people in our history were anti-bigot bigots. So feel free to call me that all you wish.

it's clear you have nothing of substance to add to the discussion.

And you have added what? It's ok to hate the religious because they selected it? You have returned seek to return us to the period prior to religious freedom where the concept of respecting another faith was obsurd. Thanks so much for you addition to this thread.

Enjoy your faux martyrdom and your fabulous cross logo. Though all the really fabulous crosses and crucifixes, dripping with gold and diamonds and rubies, are in the vaults of the Vatican, glittering uselessly while millions suffer and starve and die.

What groups do you belong to and how many people are they helping right now. How many of those starving kids are they feeding.

The Catholic church helps more people a day then any other group on the planet. So take your "while kids are starving" comments somewhere else.

:evilgrin:

peace, love and gold-plated signs of the cross be upon you.

pffft solid gold or nothing punk :D

someones choice of religion is not fair game for discussion. It is none of your business. What a church does in national politics and how it affects you....that is your business.

Please feel free to not read my posts.

It's quite simple.

BTW, I attend regular services of the KKK and support their activities with my tithe money. Is that any of YOUR business?

:eyes:

first you say "And like membership in any elective organization, it is fair game for discussion."

then when I said someones choice in religious beliefs is none of your business you said:

Then you say "BTW, I attend regular services of the KKK and support their activities with my tithe money. Is that any of YOUR business?"

Now I can understand if you had trouble comprehending what someone else says, but failing to comprehend your own post is kind of sad...... thanks for playing anyway
:eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes::eyes:

Bye now...:eyes: backatchya

Religion is a choice. And b3ecause something is a choice doesn't make it open season for bigotry. However, criticism, particularly constructive criticism should be encouraged by Catholics and others alike.

And if the organization commits illegal acts, as we know it does, as do it's leadership, there can be no legitimate complaint from Catholics about others pointing that out and calling for censure, fines, imprisonment and perhaps even dissolution.


Fair & Balanced Buttons — The Cronus Connection

I read your link and that was not Catholic bashing. They were not bashing Catholic people for their religious beliefs or their culture. They were making fun of some Catholic priests for having committed some very vile acts. The Catholic priesthood as a whole has brought on these attacks by continuously trying to sweep the whole matter under the rug. Although I am sure some priests are quite disturbed by the whole issue, the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic church is anythig but contrite about the matter.

accountability for the at atrocities that have taken place with the cover up of all the child sex cases, then and only then will I have respect for the Catholic faith. How dare you to even suggest otherwise.


P.S. And yes, I have not seen the outcry from the Catholic people over this. It is a shame!

I heard FIVE different priests at THREE different churches denounce child sex abuse and the coverup.
Attend a Mass or talk to a priest instead of just interjecting your ignorant(meaning not knowing) opinion on here.

I call it sick! If that is your feeble attempt at an outcry, try again.

Edit: "interjecting your ignorant(meaning not knowing) opinion on here." I was there, it happened to me. Trust me I saw no outcry! And still have not! So please take your 5 priests elsewhere. 5 priests and 50 cents will only get me a cup of coffee.

where is your outcry for what your goverment does everyday? It's FAR WORSE then the church so what have you done? Tell me, show me where you have gone out of your way to make a difference. It better be damn good for someone calling us feeble and demanding we try again.

They have been VERY vocal,especially here in Boston.

http://www.votf.org/Press/news.html

accountability for the at atrocities that have taken place with the cover up of all the child sex cases, then and only then will I have respect for the Catholic faith.

So you want us to write the laws as well? If you want them sent to prison go bother law enforcement. The catholic church is paying for their mistakes ad has taken steps to ensure it doesn't happen again.

How dare you to even suggest otherwise.

Save your righteousness for someone that doesn't see thru your act.

P.S. And yes, I have not seen the outcry from the Catholic people over this. It is a shame

So then you didn't see church donations drop, church attendence drop, congregations demand change and attack their own church? What the hell do you want to see? Burning churches and mass conversions to atheism....dream on.

I agree with most of what you say. I am distressed by the notion that one is "anti-Catholic" if they don't support right wing ideas, and I have called both of our senators from Maine to tell them that, as Catholics (my wife used to be a nun!), we are opposed to the extremist views of mr. Pryor.:spank:

As for the bashing, I just ignore it now. People are going to believe what they want to believe. The bashing is only to start arguments and I'm not going to get suckered in again.

Any D over any r in '04! (or '03!):bounce:

Those are your words. How odd to me that you ask for respect regarding your Religion, but disrespect other people's religion with that statement.

You may not realize it, Christianity was at one time an "obscure cult."

Not the best choice of words.

But seeing the generalizations in the media and amongst the populace, Catholicism may as well be considered an 'obscure' religion.

I mentioned Scientology and the Moonie cult because I really don't see them as religions, as we think of religion. Scientology, in fact, declared themsleves a religion to gain tax advantages (I did heavy research into this). Same with the Moonies. Does this constitute a religion?

Definition of 'religion' (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary)

Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
Date: 13th century
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
- re·li·gion·less adjective

Then you post a definiton of the word Religion that would be accurate for both the Moonies and Scientology would be described with.

Many "Religious" people seem to want only tolerance of their Religion, and not others. Your argument seems to be "Mine is real their's isn't. That is the same thought process some athiest's are indulging when they say "all Religions are a fairy tale."

You and are a member of the Richest most Powerful Religion in the History of the World, and yet you present yourself as a victim. Just seems slightly hypocritical to me.

fairy tale
n.
1. A fanciful tale of legendary deeds and creatures, usually intended for children.
2. A fictitious, highly fanciful story or explanation.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

A fairly accurate description of most (if not all) world religions. Most religious folk would agree, exempting their own of course.

I'm not saying "mine's right, yours is wrong." Big difference there. I'm saying "yours is wrong, and I don't have a replacement." Comparing the veracity of various religions is like asking whether Area 51 alien autopsies are more likely to be real than flying monkeys. Considering them all extremely unlikely until evidence warrants otherwise, on the other hand, is nothing more than common sense.

If you want Christians in the "big tent" Democratic party, than don't. It's pretty simple.

accepted BIGOTRY in America!

Then, in America, you are really fucked!

:D

My father, a typical Italian male, considered it women's work to go to mass. However, at the end of his life he asked for last rites and his sisters arranged a memorial service in the family church in North Jersey. I am standing next to my 85 year old Aunt, a devout Catholic her entire life, as she spoke with the Priest she asked to speak at the Memorial, and I am thinking what a queen he was. My Aunt saw nothing but a holy man, a man of god - that is all that mattered to her.

here would criticize you for being gay, but it's always open season on Southerners and Catholics at DU and fat people are demonized from time to time.

Fat people are told to shape up and lose weight. "It's a choice to be fat."

Southerners are told to leave the South, and despise their Southern ancestors and heritage. "It's a choice to be Southern/ live in the South."

Catholics are told to leave the Church, and despise their Catholic ancestors and heritage. "It's a choice to be Catholic."

IT'S A CHOICE TO BE A DEMOCRAT, TOO. . .

NO REAL LIBERAL WOULD CONDEMN SOMEONE ELSE FOR THEIR PHYSICAL APPEARANCE, REGIONAL ORIGIN, OR RELIGIOUS AFFILIATION.

STOP THE HATE!

If my whole family had lived in the South for generations, I would still leave, because I would fucking hate it there. I suppose leaving North Dakota doesn't really count since most of my relatives live in Minnesota now anyway, but I would have no problem moving to either coast, where all my ancestors and heritage would be left behind. What's the big deal?

Same for being Catholic as I pointed out below. Although I'm really only 1/4 Catholic if you go through the bloodlines.

I don't see why anyone should live in a place/be in a religion just because their ancestors were.

Catholicism isn't the last accepted bigotry in America. The president got away with saying atheists aren't citizens. I doubt he could get away with saying the same about catholics. Which I find ironic considering that in the US (according to the census) those without a religion outnumber those of every religious sect except Catholicism.

What I seem to be hearing on this thread is that there is no acceptable criticism of the Catholic church in any form - that any criticism is BIGOTRY. Wouldn't it be so wonderful if the world was so black and white? Everything would be so easy. Heck, we wouldn't even have to think.

Seems to me that would be like saying to criticize the misadministration is to support Saddam/Osama/Boogey Man.

And just to nip this arguement in the bud, I come from a very Catholic family as well. In fact, for generations we shunned anyone who married outside the church. How's that for bigotted. To be fair, the Lutheran side (my great-grandfather converted) did the same thing.

You were born human not catholic. I see no particular catholic bashing here. I do see criticism of the church getting involved in right wing politics and trying to blackmail catholic politicians to go along. In other words the Pope/bishops is/are trying to make US policy and that is wrong. Even though the church is against the death penalty and the war in Iraq, it is homosexuals and pro-choice people who will be assailed by the church organization come election time. Not one catholic congress or senate person will be targeted for their vote on the war or for favoring the DP. I have a real big problem with that. If I wanted to live under catholic rules I would go to that church....having said that I have absolutely no problem with the religion as people choose to practice it. That is none of my business and there is much that I think is beautiful about the church and it's practices.

Now if you want to talk about bashing the belief in God, that does happen here on a regular basis.

You state your case and your problems without lobbing insults. I respect your opinion and share many of them. I apologize for the moronic actions my church has taken on abortion and homosexual rights and assure you many of us catholics are against the popes stance on these issues.

I am a firm believer that the church should have it's opinions but it should not try to guilt Catholic elected officials into voting against equal rights for homosexuals, that is just plain wrong. As for abortion, I would respect the churches stance more is they put as much pressure against DP and war as they do for the Pro-Life movement.

Catholic bashing makes me fume. The Catholic Church is like a huge target, people feel free to bash it however they like, and it's accepted. On DU, I just ignore the Catholic bashing posts, just as I ignore the other religion bashing posts. In the real world when someone I know bashes Catholicism (I can take constructive criticism, but I don't tolerate bashing) I stop them and say, "Have you ever heard me criticize your religion?" When they respond in the negative, I say, "Well, I would appreciate it if you refrained from bashing my religion in my presence." It works every time.

...and this thread turns into a massive flame war.

In the last day or so, I haven't seen much difference between the so-called 'Democrats' here and the neocons.

If this is going to be our attitude about everything, where everything is so black and white, and all Christianity is bad because it supports a conservative agenda, then maybe Bush deserves to win after all (I can't believe I just said that).

I'm just being sarcastic here. But adopting the neocon traits of non-tolerance and narrow-mindednessn will destroy the Democratic party.

I'm outta this thread!

"Enough of the Catholic bashing!Now!" might seem a bit provocative to some.
Just a thought.

that a call for tolerance is considered "provocative"

It's the title of the post that I was referring to...sorry if it wasn't clear.

A forcible attempt to stifle conversation isn't going to win you any prizes, no matter what the subject.

Insisting that by criticizing Church hierarchy, someone is directly insulting/criticizing *you,* is like saying that if someone criticizes my candidate of choice, or my Democratic Governor, they're critizing *me.*

Who is using force?

Which trying to tell people to STFU basically amounts to. So what if it's online and physical force is not possible. Instead, the author(s) are attempting to shame people, whose viewpoints and mesasges they disagree with and are bothered by, into keeping quiet.

"attempting to shame people" = "force"

So there!

I come from Irish Catholic roots, though I'm no longer a Catholic, I respect those that are.

Jesus set a very, very, very, very bad example for his followers. This is the way he bashed the Pope of all Popes, the only one that he chose personally, St. Peter:
{ Matthew 16: 20-23 } : From then on Jesus began to speak plainly to his disciples about going to Jerusalem, and what would happen to him there -- that he would suffer at the hands of the Jewish leaders, that he would be killed, and that three days later he would be raised to life again. But Peter took him aside to remonstrate with him. "Heaven forbid, sir," he said. "This is not going to happen to you!" Jesus turned on Peter and said, "Get behind me, Satan. You are an obstacle in my path, for the way you think is not God's way but man's."
Boy, on Judgment Day is HE going to have a lot to answer for when he has to face the defenders of the Catholic papacy !!!
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And this is the way Jesus spoke to the faithful about the clergy of his day:

according to Matthew, Ch. 23:
"At that time, Jesus addressed the crowds and His disciples, saying : 'The scribes and the Pharisees speak with the authority of Moses, so you must do what they tell you and follow their instructions. But don't make the mistake of imitating their lives! For, they preach but do not practice. They pile up back-breaking burdens and lay them on other men's shoulders -- yet they themselves will not so much as raise a finger to move them. Their whole lives are planned with an eye to effect. They increase the size of their prayer books and lengthen the tassels of their robes; they love seats of honor at public functions and front places and to have men call them 'rabbi' or 'teacher'."
And this is the behavior of the Jewish clergy and of secular rulers that Jesus instructed the leaders that he was appointing to AVOID:

" As for yourselves, don't you ever be called 'rabbi' -- you only have one teacher, and all of you are brother of one another. And don't call any human being 'father' -- for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. And you must not let people call you 'leaders' -- for you have only one leader, the Anointed One (Christ). The only 'superior' among you is the one who serves the others. For, every man who promotes himself will be humbled, and every man who learns to be humble will find promotion. But alas for you, you scribes and Pharisees, play actors (hypocrites) that you are! You lock the doors of the kingdom of Heaven in men's faces. You will not go inside yourselves, and neither will you allow others to enter. You know that among the pagans, rulers lord it over their subjects and their great men make their authority felt. This is not to happen among you. No, anyone who wants to be great among you must be your servant, and anyone who wants to be first among you must be your slave, just as the son of man came, not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
And this is the example he set for the clergy that he chose to REPLACE the Jewish clergy:
:{ Mark 10:17- 18 } "As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." (Matthew 20)
" If anyone wishes to be first, he must make himself the last, and the servant of the rest."
{ Mark 10:17- 18 }
"As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone."
{ John 13: 3--17 }
"Jesus . . . got up from the table, took off his outer robe, and tied a towel around himself. Then he poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel that was tied around him. . .
After he had washed their feet, had put on his robe, and had returned to the table, he said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you? You call me Teacher and Lord--and you are right, for that is what I am. So if I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have set you an example, that you also should do as I have done to you. Very truly, I tell you, servants are not greater than their master, nor are messengers greater than the one who sent them. If you know these things, you are blessed if (i.e. to the extent that) you do them."

To see how UNLIKE Christ the Catholic popes and bishops have been over the years, see http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/PopesvsChrist.

how are you doing today?

You never did respond to my post on your last thread where you showed that you don't believe in the virgin birth and that you feel believing such things makes you somehow less intelligent.

How can you claim to be a Christian after saying such a thing?

Where did I say that I didn't believe in the virgin birth. The Catholic theologian may have said that, so are you excommunicating him?

Now, it's interesting that after my posting many of JESUS' words, you have nothing to say about what HE says.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

why are you bugging me about MY beliefs about the virgin birth at a political forum? I talk about the papacy because the papacy insists on poking its unholy nose in American and world politics.

As for belief in the Virgin Birth being required for Christianity, that's a FUNDAMENTALIST position, which is NOT shared by Liberal Protestant or Catholic theologians.

To make yourself look good and others bad.

maybe YOU will even come to believe them. If you weren't so BLINDED by your rage, you might see the positive side of Jesus' teaching I posted in # 90. Jesus preached humility.

and I bash the church all the time. I hate it with a passion, and wish I was excommunicated. Fuck my heritage. I wouldn't be proud of it if I had slaveowners as part of my heritage.

what does that say?

So take it up with them. Why do you have to post an anti-anti-Catholic rant? Maybe you are overreacting. Catholic bashers here are probably freepers pretending to be Dems.

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I've seen less then sensitive posts here and else where. :shrug:

Sorry gang, I'm not a mod, but each persons relationship with his or her God (or not) is personal and should be respected, no?

It's been several days since I posted #90. "Jesus was the worst anti-catholic bigot of them all !" containing Christ's teaching about the hierarchy he expected to lead his followers. Several defenders of the "Vicars of Christ" have attacked the messenger, but no sign that any Catholic has yet to read or head Jesus' words.

just curious how many catholics believe that when the priest consecrates the bread and wine at Mass, they actually become, contrary to appearances, Christ's Body and Blood?