Dean and the "draft dodging" B.S.

This is mostly to the serial Dean bashers:

Do you really think that you'll turn any heads with the "Clark/Kerry served their country while Dean skiied" crap when most Dean supporters were stirred to his campaign by his anti-war position? If Dean had made any kind of attack on Kerry or Clark on their war records, this little talking "point" might make sense, but he didn't, and it strikes me as possibly the stupidest, most hollow, jingoistic bullshit barb you could sling at Dean.

Now, I'd gladly support either Kerry or Clark if they get the nomination over my guy, but I'm not particularly impressed with either of them based solely on the fact that their Vietnam vets. Had I been alive during the Vietnam War, you can bet your ass I would have torn up my draft card and served time, just as I would have had there been a draft during this bullshit invasion. I don't begrudge these two men their service, but I don't go all doe eyed for them over it either. I'm impressed with other credentials of both men, but forgive me if I can't get all hyped about their participation in a war that was just as much bullshit as the invasion of Iraq. Fighting the VietCong didn't make ANY Americans safer, nor did it protect their freedoms, it just made a lot of them dead. So please, save me your nationalist crap. If you want to tout the merits of your candidate, there are much better ways to do it than using the kind of crap that would be right at home on FreeRepublic.

this does mean a lot to the older generations, I think. The are a lot of Amerians, esp. voting Americans, who appreciate and respect those who wore the Uniform for their country...right or wrong, I think it's the truth.

Matthew

In 2000, Gore was a Vietnam VOLUNTEER whilst Bush went AWOL from a freakin' cushy National Guard rich-boy-out-of-harm's-way battalion. Nobody cared. This is a non-issue.

agree. I've been pissed ever since the Veterans associations endorsed Bush and not Gore -- but do we know who the veterans voted for? Plus, being a military reporter isn't quite the same as being on the front line -- but it's still better than Bush. Any polls on how the veterans voted in 2000?

Matthew

I just don't accept the idea that Kerry serving in an immoral and needless war somehow makes him a better person than Howard Dean because he got a deferrment. If your main reason for supporting Kerry is that he made no attempts to get out of being sent to kill Vietnamese teenagers, while Dean may have, I have to think your priorities are seriously out of whack.

Note: I'm not saying Kerry is some sort of bloodthirsty baby killer or anything stupid like that. He made a personal choice to serve our country, and I respect that. But what I respect a lot more about him is the fact that when he came back he had the balls to stand up to the government who sent him there and tried to keep other young men from dying needlessly. And it's because of that action I can't fathom for the life of me why he gave Bush a free pass to do EXACTLY what was done to him in Vietnam.

is the Commander and Chief of the US armed foreces. I think most ppl. would rather have someone in the administration, usually the president, to have had military experience. Dean has none. While I'm not promoting Bush, at least he had Guard Duty -- I think that's how some people would look at it...

Matthew

Note -- Regardless of Bush being in the Gaurd, Dean would get my vote in the general. :-)

...actually showing up and fullfilling your duty....but this same group of republicans have questioned the patriotism of McCain, who spent years getting his limbs broken and bamboo shoots shoved underneath his fingernails. military service now means nothing to the party of eisenhower.......

He signed up. Went down for the physical but was deferred because of a back problem that doesn't keep him from skiing but would have put him at physical risk as a soldier.

When they classify you that way, you have no control over it.

He didn't ask his daddy to get him a NG post. He took his chances and he just wasn't taken.

Dean didn't stop bathing for a month and piss and crap his pants before his physical like that paragon of patriotism Ted Nugent. He got his draft notice and went down to do his duty for his country. They noted that he had a fused vertebrae, and at the time that was enough to get him deferred; they had enough guys in line with him that were 100% healthy that the Army was not willing to take a chance on someone who could develop a debilitating back problem in the trenches.

Hey, my wife applied to the Air Force when she was young. She wanted to be a pilot more than anything in the world. She was turned down because of her vision (ambliopia). That's the breaks, you know? The military picks who they will take and who they won't.

Having said all that, Dean needs to fill in the military/defense gap in his resume with an astute pick for VP. I don't think it's an issue that he didn't serve, but he's going to have to show that he is gathering expertise into his camp for dealing with what is, after all, a very hot issue in this campaign.

Dean didn't use the Guard as dodge to avoid Viet Nam, then go AWOL on his commitment like Shrub- or have mutiple deferments like Cheney, Delay, AshKKKroft, Lott, Hassert, etc.

I think Clark would make a hell of a vice president- which is a good warm up for the number one spot.

I'm afraid. It IS an issue with a significant enough segment of Americans to matter. Maybe the 5% Dean will need to win.

Those five percent? hhmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

or Bush against Gore. It doesn't matter.

the older generation knows the difference between *war* and the naked aggression of power hungry corporate concubines. We lived through WWII; our friends and family members served, were wounded, died, came home. We know what to respect and why.

And it's not a few yards of material.

...and thereby did what the vast, vast majority of his generation did.

Hell I almost agree that Dean got a false deferment for his back, but I don't care one bit. there is NOTHING wrong with dodging the draft, so who gives a shit?

To me there were two noble options


Serve


or be a conscientious objector like Muhummad Ali and suffer the consequences.


Most folks like Bush, Clinton, Quayle, Cheney, and the vast majority of their fellow baby boomers gamed the system.

I think many of you young folks who are making this an issue will soon get the opportunity to do a little draft dodging your self. Think about that when your condemming Dean for accepting the draft boards decision and stayed out of Nam. Kerry, Gore and Clark are to be commended for serving when called. Personaly, I was married and had a child so I was not drafted. I would have went if called, and so would have Howard Dean. I have always felt lucky that I did not have to go to Nam, as I think most people would. I can't beleave some of you people want Bush out of the whitehouse, the way you cut down our candidates. Think a little please!

I said he's a draft dodger and that he did the right thing. how is that condemning in any way? I have MORE respect for draft dodgers than people who decided to kill for their government in a BS war. I don't care about "duty" bullshit. Wrong war = wrong war, period.

Draft dodging is not the right thing. It would in fact cost Dean lots of votes if it were true. It is not, he got a big break, as I did. The troops over there right now did not get to vote if it was a just war, they were told to go and they did. How can anyone not respect that? The Americans who won ww11 did not get to vote if it was a just war, they went and fought. I do nor support the idiot and his boys who got us in this mess, but I have the highest respect for our troops who had to go, and went, and are doing the best they can under very bad conditions.

most americans are against the draft and against Vietnam in retrospect. Only Freeperish type ultra-hawks are the people I would see who would refuse to vote for him because of it, who probably wouldn't anyway. Being a draft dodger didn't hurt Clinton any.

is a poor choice of words conjuring up negative connotations that fuel testosterone-driven frenzies of military stupidity. it is wise to keep it in perspective without catering to it.

fair to say some will not vote for Dean b/c they feel he "dodged" the draft? I think so. I think it's also fair to say some will not vote Kerry b/c he voted for the war.

Matthew

If people aren't voting for him because he didn't serve, that is one thing. Some people feel that military experience should be a prerequisite. Fine. But "Dodging" implies action on his part or on the part of people associated with him, which is not what happened. If their stated reason is because he "dodged" the draft, then they are being disengenuous, or they are misinformed.

The war all wars are illegal. In modern day times we cannot have a just war. Why? Ideally wars are supposed to be fought by soldiers. The public are supposed to be off limits.

Our war technologies are just too massive to keep conflicts in the war zone so the Vietnam and thus any future wars are unjust. So I would of been a draft dodger. Perhaps if it was the 1800s and the battle could be kept in the war zone I might allow myself to be drafted.

Peace

that the winning candidate in Nov 2004, whoever it may be, needs to appeal to more than just those with similar interests and preferences as Deanie Boppers. Unfortunately, that is why Dean, if nominated, won't win. He's a walking talking reincarnation of McGovern/Dukakis.

And, the Deanie Bopper generation doesn't vote. The candidate needs to be attractive to people that vote.

a Dean supporter, but I think for anyone to say he "can't win" is a little premature. I often wonder why anyone says so-and-so can't win, I mean, afterall, how does anyone really know? Personally, I think Clark, and maybe even Kerry, would have a greater appeal to a greater amount of Americans in the general election - not primary, per se, but I don't think Dean is a sure loser in the general either...

Matthew

That would be humiliating, and the DLC would go into their orgy of "I told you so"'s

Dean is no McGovern but Michael Dukakis wasn't a lunatic who purposely let out convicted felons on weekend furloughs so they could rape and pillage.

The Republican party will do everything in their power to marginalize Howard Dean.

Look what they did to McGovern and McGovern was a war hero who flew fifty bombing missions over Germany while Nixon didn't come within hundred miles of battle during his Navy stint.

I don't care about DLC gloating but I shudder for my nation if it has to endure four more years of*

they guy they thought couldn't win, but did.

dean, or more aptly the collective Dean movement, is more Dovish than any other serious candidate, and ARE the types that would call Hiroshima and Nagasaki's bombings evil acts.

He's the guy that anyone with any informed and savvy background on these things will tell you can't win(in a general election), and they'd be right, barring a quasi-armageddon

as people don't discuss age here much. But as a collection, they're not baby boomers.

who the Deanie Bopper generation is, how do you know that they don't vote?

Deanie Boppers are the youngest age group of voters and statisticly, that group doesn't vote. Being young, they don't make a lot of money which is another determinant of political participation. There's more, but I don't care to get into teaching a political science class.

to teach a political science class, but a cite or link to back up your assertions about the age of Deanie Boppers would be appreciated.

I'm 42, I'm a Dean Supporter, and I've voted in every election since I was 18.

and Dean did not DODGE the draft. He was GIVEN a deferrment he did not ask for. Subtle difference, but then again, I don't care to get into teaching any class to you either.

Bash Bash Bash... You're boring.

Way to generalize though. Course i guess a degree in poli sci means you dont have to look at actual data to make an informed decision.

nice, derogatory term, btw, is 48 and a 30-year veteren of campaigns. (Funny how name-calling is acceptable in certain situations. So much for "DU rules." South-bashing anyone?) :eyes:

Nothing amuses me more than posters like you and your totally out of touch with reality "analysis", that always seems to sound like the bullshit spouted from the whore media about who's "electable" and who's not.

Newsflash, slappy: My generation "doesn't" vote either, and we're the majority of Dean's supporters. Your bullshit talking points are based on past elections that have NOTHING to do with this one. This is a whole new ballgame.

so it was with Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern. Oh, yes. I remember well... especially McGovern. 18 year olds had just gotten the right to vote. It was a new ballgame... yup. We were gonna change the world... yup.

With no due respect, repeating the same bullshit "HE'S MCGOVERN!" shrill GOP/media whore talking points shows just how clueless and worthless your "addition" to this discourse is.

If you have anything of value to add, do so, but please spare us all rehashed GOP attack points. Dean is Dean, and no amount of you screaming he's "insert failed Dem candidate here" will change that.

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That's why you're posting anonymously on a third string liberal website forum instead of sharing your "wisdom" with the masses.

ANYONE who unequivocally says that the candidate with the most momentum behind him at this juncture "can't win" is an idiot. I don't make this stuff up, just deal with it, and figure out another ridiculous talking point, because this one holds NO water.

SweetZomibe said: Newsflash, slappy: My generation "doesn't" vote either, and we're the majority of Dean's supporters. Your bullshit talking points are based on past elections that have NOTHING to do with this one. This is a whole new ballgame.

I think the point trying to be made was in 1972 it was a whole new ball game with 18yo being able to vote -- and it didn't change anything.

Matthew

Much Democratic hope was placed in the fact that the 26th Amendment which gave 18 year olds the right to vote would result in a groundswell of support for them.

Unfortunately this age group broke for Nixon....


I'll leave it to an enterprising DUer to find a link.




btw-I'm not a defeatist. I am largely a logical positivist. I tend to believe in phenomenons that are readily observable and measurable.

Ever been to a meetup? If so, you'd know.

name calling, trying to pass off a "cute" nick that is really a slam is childish. Never as clever as the author thinks.

Lame post.

Julie

I served and I support Dean- so let's not go painting with too broad a brush, shall we?

If we are going to lose in 2004, it isn't going to be because the GOP 'Gored' us on homosexuals or terrorism. Team Dean is running an active campaign, not an reactive campaign.

The biggest threat to Dean is a good economy and a peaceful Iraq.

Gore lost because the SCOTUS selected *. And, if Ralph Nader and the Greens weren't so intent on destroying the Democratic Party, Florida would never have happened. The Greens and Nader made Florida possible.

talking points?

no matter who it is we're talking about. You have to remember that people who fought in, or lost loved ones in Viet Nam take draft-dodging very seriously. I'm not one of them, but honestly it doesn't speak well of the person in my eyes either.(mmkay, please don't ask me why I put those two phrases together in a sentence)

Some of it is because of the way the draft was carried out, the lottery deal. Basically the guy who skipped out on his call-up sent someone else off to die in his place. That's how a lot of people see it. I'm not going to bash Dean over it, but neither will I defend him to people who paid dearly during the Viet Nam conflict. Does that make sense?

That's not to suggest I don't understand your point, just presenting a different view for you to consider. I sort of hope you'll try to keep those thoughts in mind and not take it quite so personally. This in spite of the fact that even I get livid when my candidate's character is attacked. What the hell, it's worth a shot, trying to find some peace between fellow Democrats, you know?

Basically the guy who skipped out on his call-up sent someone else off to die in his place. That's how a lot of people see it. I'm not going to bash Dean over it, but neither will I defend him to people who paid dearly during the Viet Nam conflict. Does that make sense?


DUers are famous for criticizing the media (and rightly so) for getting it wrong about so many things. EVERYTHING, just about. Hell, we come here and celebrate over a PHRASE that has the ring of truth in it.

So why are we so freakin' willing to allow the same shading of truth HERE?

YOU ARE PERPETUATING AN UNTRUTH ABOUT DEAN.

He showed up for his induction physical. The ARMY doctors found that he had a problem with fused (or unfused?) disk, and was not suitable for the Army because he couldn't run (or probably march) long distances. They gave him a 1Y classification, which was, "Yeah, we'll take you if things get really bad."

And then he went skiing, because skiing isn't running or marching long distances and doesn't hurt his back. His back also bothers him, I read in an article about him, if he's seated for long periods of time. He's really quite athletic -- but no Marathons or Triathlons for him. HE CAN'T RUN LONG DISTANCES. THE ARMY DIDN'T WANT HIM

There's nothing to bash or THINK about bashing.

Get it?

Or are you -- and others -- saying he and his family shoulda pulled a Kennedy and pulled strings to get him IN?

He may not be your candidate -- and that's perfectly fine with me, honest. But dear GOD you folks make me crazy when you do the work of the RNC by spreading lies and distortions about ANY of the candidates.

Eloriel

for posting that! While I think whoever first accused Dean of being a draft dodger was wrong, the purpose of these boards should be to constantly keep us all educated! :-) We can't know everything about all the candidates all the time!

I actually knew about this, but it had slipped my mind...thanks for posting!

Matthew

As Eloriel said: the man got his letter, showed up for the physical and got the classification that the military doctors gave him. You don't request those, you are GIVEN them. And in those days they were looking for more ways to accept draftees than reject them.

My father had flat feet. He got a Y1 (or its equivalent) during Korea. he played tennis, skiied and whatever he wanted. The Army decided that his feet were not reliable enough for miles and miles of marching---unless the Commies were coming up the street in an invasion. Did my father "dodge" the draft? No, he showed up as ordered and the Army did what THEY wanted to do.

Get a damn brain, or take some reading comprehension classes. The man did not DODGE any draft. As for the lameass argument that the Replicants can "claim he dodged!" look what they did to Cleland in Georgia. No one is safe when someone is willing to lie.

How about supporting your candidates by making a case for their superiority rather than knocking another down.

ask for!

That's not Dodging!

Jingoistic??????

I think you need to look that one up

Dean never attacked Kerry and Clark on there war record because he doesn't have any grounded way to do so.

C'mon, no posts should be based on such insanely reaching positions, and lack of proper English usage

I wish he would just call himself a Democrat. I as a liberal democrat would have all the respect in the world for him if he had dodged the draft in the 60s. After all thats what lots of liberals did and are proud of it.

He is not a liberal or a progressive. He is just another Ralph Nader arm chair fake liberal that the Republicans are using to divide the swing vote.

Dean has zero values of a liberal.

Dude, I'm serious. You should go to the hospital. :D

when he's running in the primary and not in the general, and has said many many times that if he doesn't win the nomination he will support the nominee and not run.

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It's sacrilege with his off the wall views.

What views of mine would Kennedy say are not his?

Did he say I am a liberal but I am also am a conservative?

No he said he was a liberal and a democrat.

I am no longer a democrat because I will not sell out my values.

and JFK was a cold war liberal and a bit of a corporatist. He ran on an alleged missile gap bewteen the U.S. and Russia. He had Republican Cabinet memembers like the Ford whiz kid, Robert McNamara. He also had supply side tax cuts.


JFK was way more complex than some cardboard liberal saint.


That being said he was one of the most courageous and inspirational figures of the twentieth century.

But what most in the north respect about JFK was his liberal values.
I know my mother for example she had pictures of him in a picture book and respected him because he was part of a movement to help the poor. Back then being poor was a reason to assist ones neighbor, not to punish them. And Kennedy was sort of a hero for the working class not the middle class. And Unions and JFK organized it so that the Civil rights laws would be enforced all around the country.

It was a constant battle to get civil rights reforms that were on the books so when he was shot Democracy died. It's as if a whole spirit of our nation died with his death.

I even knew this as I have been voting that I was not really voting for the same values they had back then when Kennedy was around.

Most of the Democrats of today don't even know what a liberal is.

Civil rights brought freedoms into people’s lives that they had never had before, the economy grew and we even went to space, none of that was a Republican goal.

That now is all gone. Democracy is dead. The Stealing of the election just made it official or legal. The death of democracy that happened the day Kennedy got shot in 1963, just became official or legal when the Supreme Court selected our president, in 2000.

However as I see it from this death can bring a new life a revolutionary change to the system. A non-violent revolution to bring about the changes some of the masters of justice and peace so well taught us they are Gandhi, King and John Kennedy.

JFK and RFK were able to connect with the poor better than any of their contemporaries.

What made this fact even more remarkable was how much social and economic distance there was bewteen them and their followers.

It might have something to do with the teaching they got from the family patriach Joe Kennedy who said "the rich can always take care of themselves, it is the job of the government to take care of the poor."

is that it seems he didn't care about the Vietnam war issue one way or the other. He didn't fight OR protest while Kerry did BOTH.

Look, I don't disagree with dodging/avoiding a war one has a principaled position against. Clinton dodged Vietnam, but protested against it. He was out there with a belief and actions to back that up.

Sure, people like Gore and Kerry were also born into wealth, but they worked hard to prove themselves. They showed every step of the way that they were "about something". I just don't get that feeling with Dean.

The way I see it, personality-wise, Dean has a lot in common with W. Both had that "whatever dude" mentality, finally woke up one day and decided to "take the place owed to them".

Dean is running for President, and if he's elected, it will be in no way because of his father's fortune or connections. Bush, on the other hand, not only wasn't elected, but he got to the stage where he was setup to be selected by the Supreme Court thanks ENTIRELY to his father's connections. Bush has NEVER earned his position anywhere. Howard Dean has.

There's a big difference between being the son of a Dean Witter executive and being the son of a former Chief Executive.

My dad had a ninth grade education.

haven't been paying attention!

Dean was born to wealth and made something of himself.

What has bush done but turned everything that he touches to shit?

…
Dean wasn’t deeply interested in politics per se, but rather, it seems, in power of a personal kind. He was a senior prefect at St. George’s. At Yale, he thought about teaching or medicine, which put the fate of others in the practitioner’s hands. “I have always wanted to change the world in some way,” he says matter-of-factly. “It’s very deep.” Indeed, it took a while for it to surface. After a post-college year skiing in Aspen, Dean returned to New York in 1972 to become the next (fourth) Dean—stretching back to Herbert Hollingshead Dean, a founder of Smith Barney—to be an investment banker.

He hated it. Business was bad. (There was an Arab oil embargo on.) Dean missed the country life of hockey on the pond and duck on the table that he’d grown up with (at least on weekends) in the big house in eastern Long Island. “I took my father to dinner, fed him three martinis and told him I wanted to go to medical school,” Dean recalls. He was 25—too late for the “micromanager” to protest. He moved back into his parents’ Park Avenue apartment and began taking science classes.

That’s when the defining crisis arrived. Charlie turned up missing. Younger by 16 months (they’d shared a bunk bed as boys), he was the more idealistic. “Charlie was the more community-minded, the more focused on politics,” says third brother Jim Dean. In 1968 Charlie enrolled at Chapel Hill, a font of civil-rights activism. In 1972 he plunged into the anti-Vietnam War campaign of Sen. George McGovern, only to see him crushed in 49 of 50 states by Richard Nixon. “Charlie was very disillusioned,” says Jim. “That is when he decided he needed to leave the country.”
…
http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/937672.asp?0cv=kb10#BODY

…
Whatever the case, Charlie was killed around December 1974 by members of the Pathet Lao, the communist group that won a long civil war to control Laos. The family was devastated; Andree Dean says her husband "just would never discuss it." But her boys rallied around one another. To this day, Dean wears his brother's belt, a hippie-ish job with large metal eyelets that looks strange against Dean's usual pinstripes.

Charlie's death has been called the "defining crisis" in Dean's life, the impulse that focused him. But it's a little more complicated. Even before his brother's death, Dean had sought a world beyond the moneyed Atlantic coastline. As a senior at St. George's, Dean requested that Yale -- where he enrolled in 1967, when Bush was beginning his senior year -- pair him with black roommates to give him another view of the world. He got two African-American roommates and one from rural Pennsylvania.
…
http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:mmx_o7UAWwUJ:edition.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/08/04/timep.dr.dean.tm/&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8

Virtually all Clark or Kerry supporters probably respect Dean greatly. I know I do.

These people seem to LOVE to try and use this particular strawman, and a lot of them are Kerry supporters, or at least they claim they are. For all I know, they could be GOPers trying to stir up shit. It would certainly explain their stupid agenda and pathological hatred of Dean.

I can see the Repub campaign commercials nows... "Hello I'm George Bush. I wanted to let you know that Dean didn't go to Nam. Yup, that's right. All that time I was AWOL in the Texas Guard. I think the choice is clear"

I was in Viet Nam".

it's a real old political trick and all you young draftees are falling for it like fools...

you must look at who can win...and it ain't Dean...

if those 'cheap-labor conservatives' can split the vote, bush* will win and ALL you young draftees will be on the front line of any of bush* THREE ongoing wars, and likely more by next year....

remember...if the vote hadn't split so badly during the 2000 election, we'd have President Gore, and more peace prosperity, diversity, low college tuition, safe streets....and lots of extra jobs, high stock market, and a BIG surplus...


Kerry/Clark is a BIG winner, so is Kerry/Edwards, or Kerry/Max Cleland (sp?), or Kerry/Graham...especially for the mainstream middle American...it's one thing to speak to ourselves on DU, but it's totally another thing to get the votes of the Nation...

you would be a LOT more impressed with what Kerry has accomplished, especially after you return from fighting in any of shrub's wars...let us know if you change your mind after you are drafted, OK??

He has stated unequivocally that if he doesn't get the nomination, he won't run. He's not Nader, and anyone who says he is is just a liar, plain and simple. Not to mention an idiot.

And guess what? If they bring back the draft, I ain't going. But thanks for being mature enough to wish the draft on me. Shows a lot of class on your part.

what they did in Vietnam...the military came right over to your house, school, dormroom, job, and took you away...when you refused, they still took you...and then you were in basic training, and if you continued to act up and disobey orders, it just got you shipped out to the front line in Vietnam faster, and hastened your demise...
over 58,000 were KILLED, and millions left major chunks of their bodies in Vietnam....most were just like you "I ain't going" was their slogan...but they were FORCED to go....

I do not wish the draft on anyone...and I have been fighting to stop the war, and to prevent it from starting...I protested twice in DC, once in NY, and once in Chicago before the Iraq massacre...but I didn't see hardly any young potential draftees...I guess they all think dumb like "I won't go" or think that this doesn't affect them....if young draftees don't get up soon and STAND UP against shrub's wars...the draft will be here soon...are you going to protest this weekend ???? or are you going to just complain here at DU and do little to change your fate ????

why not STAND UP this weekend in DC, bring 10 of your draft-age buddies...here's the link....

http://www.kwru.org/march/index.html

Amen's post was just stupid and illogical. Dean splitting the vote
?what?

This is such a stupid non-issue.

Yes, Dean was very lucky that the military doctor giving him his military physical recognized his back problem and didn't make him serve. But that hardly makes him a draft dodger.

from Vietnam will bring back all those Vietnam issues AGAIN...and we don't need the Vietnam issues in this election....we need a good strong Vietnam Veteran who served his country proudly and protested the war to boot...to stand up to the little shrub...and THAT is an election issues...

skiing in Aspen will really hurt Dean's chance...and you young draftable people just don't understand...it really is a BIG issue for the Vietnam era folks and their families and friends...which is a LOT of voters..unlike young potential draftees who hardly voted in the last election, and when they did vote, they split

(read the history books about splitting votes, it's an easy campaign trick....you can see it right now in California....)

Will Sen. Kerry's demonstrating against the war split the vote?

Some could see that as shitting on his buds who were still over there...(even tho he did his time...)

Lots of vets got major flack when they turned against the war.

It all depends on the POV.

there is NOBODY who served that denies Kerry the right to protest the war when he returned...my cousin was KILLED in Vietnam (19 years old, silver star, purple heart)...and if he were still alive, he would be proud of Kerry, like many Veterans are....

it doesn't matter that "lots of vets got major flack...."....that was a long time ago...Americans now realize what a mess Vietnam was...and that it was a dishonorable war...watch the Veterans protesting Iraq...these are real Patriots, standing up for YOU young potential draftees...did YOU walk with the Veterans ??? I pushed one Vet all the way down Pennsylvania Ave to the Navy Shipyard in the cold of January...and I wish some young person would have helped, and the Veteran was in a wheelchair from Vietnam.....WHY DON'T ALL YOU YOUNG POTENTIAL DRAFTEES STAND UP THIS WEEKEND???? Fight for your lives...because there is not much more time...

And I'm not draft age, but I sure was during Viet Nam.

Kerry had EVERY right to protest, and I'm glad he (and many others )did. That does not change the fact that he probably will get attacked in some quarters for it.

Max Cleland left body parts over there and the pathetic, disgusting, rethugs attacked him for his lack of "patriotism", and they beat him.

Don't underestimate the venom of the opposition.

Dean: First of all, let me say that there’s only one person who’s contending for the Democratic nominee for president who did serve in the military, nomination for president, and then let me explain the circumstances of my draft classification. I went to my physical in Ft. Hamilton in Brooklyn, which was a great deal like the scene out of Alice’s Restaurant in terms of the different sizes, shapes, colors, and all kinds of people were there. I was given an examination. I had a previous back problem, which is evidently congenital, which prevented me from doing any sustained running, a problem that I’ve had since then, since that time, which requires that when I get out of the car I often have some pains up and down my leg and back and so forth. But I have been able to exercise at—ry vigorous athletic life except for some things. One of those is long-distance running, which is how the problem came to my attention in the first place. I noticed the pain when I was in high school running track. In any case, the—after the physical, I received a one Y deferment. That’s how the United States government decided that they would use me. One Y deferment means you can only be called in times of national emergency. I didn’t have anything to do with choosing any draft deferment. I didn’t try to get out of the draft. I had a physical. The United States government said this is your classification. I’m not responsible for that. I didn’t have anything to do with the decision. That was their choice.

Russert: A military physical.

Dean: Yeah. I had a military physical. I had a draft induction physical in Ft. Hamilton. I think it was, perhaps, during my senior year. I don’t remember the exact date.

Russert: If called, you would have served?

Dean: Of course.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp

let you know the real scoop, irrespective of what any politician's story is....

and look again at the Vietnam Wall, the people who couldn't get a medical deferment..and think for a moment how many voters (who really do vote, not young people who rarely vote) know and loved those 58,000 people on the wall...then think about the MILLIONS who left MAJOR chunks of their bodies and minds in Vietnam, and all the people who love them and care about them...and think about all the people serving in the military, and all the medical people helping rehabilitate the damaged Vietnam Veterans....and there you have a LOT of voters....

and that is why the draft issue is very BAD for Dean, no matter how he spins it...it just won't fly...Dean should just be happy that he skied while others died in Vietnam, even if that ruins his run for the presidency....at least he got out of Vietnam without any injuries...and therefore, has had a much more pleasant life than those who went...and for that Dean should be greatful, and go home with a smile on his face...

and Kerry can take the Veterans and military votes and that could make all the difference in the election....if YOU don't want to be drafted for shrub's perpetual wars, then you need to get behind someone who can win....and that is Kerry....

no logic there. Anyway being a draft dodger never hurt Clinton. It also didn't help Gore destroy bush in a slam dunk victory.

This is all a catch 22 for Dean. If he had said I renounce liberalism, I am now a conservative and I am running on that platform it would of been forgotten. No one would care if he went skiing while others were fighting the war. But he is now the great liberal hope. Most liberals around the time of the 60s were hated by unions and the Democrats and the Republicans, for being unpatriotic. And for a liberal to say yea I dodged the draft so what it was and unjust war, and that stand would be normal for a liberal because that is what liberalism was about then as it is now.

So now we are in the future 2003. He is the liberal hope for the future and he does not even have the courage to say so what I dodged the draft.

And his lack of picking sides with this whole draft issue makes him look wimpy even to us pacifists.

wellstone_democrat says in post #70:

As Eloriel said: the man got his letter, showed up for the physical and got the classification that the military doctors gave him. You don't request those, you are GIVEN them. And in those days they were looking for more ways to accept draftees than reject them.

My father had flat feet. He got a Y1 (or its equivalent) during Korea. he played tennis, skiied and whatever he wanted. The Army decided that his feet were not reliable enough for miles and miles of marching---unless the Commies were coming up the street in an invasion. Did my father "dodge" the draft? No, he showed up as ordered and the Army did what THEY wanted to do.

Get a damn brain, or take some reading comprehension classes. The man did not DODGE any draft. As for the lameass argument that the Replicants can "claim he dodged!" look what they did to Cleland in Georgia. No one is safe when someone is willing to lie.

How about supporting your candidates by making a case for their superiority rather than knocking another down.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=201596#202454

But when one reads the stories of liberals at the time with similar situations. It usually goes something like this. I went to the exam, and told them that I could not go to the war because of being crazy, or some other excuse.

I will not go into the list of things people did or say to get out of the war but lets just say, a real liberal would make it a point to not get accepted during the exam no matter what.

Why was Dean for war then but he is now against war?

Why not just say he was for the war then but he has changed he is now a pacifist.

Vietnam war was a waste of human life. I'm glad Dr. Dean didn't serve and I'm glad Bill Clinton didn't serve.

I think that was a bad war.

Mike

Not serving in a war is not a crime. Going AWOL is.

Mike

The absolute NERVE of these rightwing crackheads ...to bring up draft "issues" when MOST of them hid behind mommies dress when the draft was going on..



http://www.mind.net/basile/NationalIDSeries.html

.

because he really wanted to do it.
Dean could have somehow got in to the military.
Not actual combat, but could have had his medical training paid for by the military then served some time in military hospitals.

there is nothing honorable about destroying lives, killing children, bombing the necessary infrstructure of a long-suffering people, maiming civilians, looting and destroying heritage and priceless architectural treasure. There is nothing noble about denying a poor victimized people water, food or electricity. There is nothing admirable in terrorizing families in the middle of the night, and abusing and humiliating the native population out of fear and ignorance. There is nothing which deserves a medal for firing into crowds of frustrated civilians weary of the abuse.

This is war, and even in a war that was not built on a obvious fabrication of lies and trumped up falsehoods, war is nothing to ever be proud of.

So you can take your medals and shove them - For what they truly represent is not heroism, but submission to injustice and brutality of an occupied people.

The candidate who struts around as if he is more qualified based solely on the fact that he participated willingly, or made a career of, or buys into the stars and stripes cover-up of an unjust mulitary adventure will never earn my vote, but will only know my contempt.

It is too simplistic to say military experience doesn't matter or it does matter. The truth is, it depends.

If military experience REALLY mattered Max Cleland would have beaten Saxby Chambliss in GA hands down. That race was the first race after 9/11. Cleland's military experience was manipulated and twisted - he was compared to bin laden.

One would think military experience matters more now than it has in the last 30-40 years. One would think that a Clark v. Bush race should result in Clark winning. But if you consider the Georgia Senate race, you have to wonder. If republicans are consistent in their tactics, prepare to see the military issue twisted against Clark, against Dean, against Kerry - each in a different way.

You know photos of Bush in his flight suit will be shown as definitive evidence of military experience (and they can even airbrush out the "mission accomplished" banner behind him as its been proven to be untrue). The media won't discuss his AWOL issues. Ads will run against the dem. candidate inferring they've gone soft - that they are like bin laden or hussein, they are anti-american.