Could "Satanism" Exist Without Christianity?

I've always thought that Satanists are merely "Christians-Gone-Bad" (so to speak) who, rather than abandoning their religion for some other religion, or for atheism... they choose to antagonize the same folks that without whom they would have no religion at all.

So... I have to wonder... is Satanism a "true" religion, or is it merely an anti-religion? But not for the Old and New Testaments, what would Satanists have to go by? Where would their images and icons come from?

Seems like the only folks who truly give a damn about Satanists and what they do are the Christians. I'm convinced that if paranoid Christians would ignore Satanism (and stop exaggerating about it... which probably contributes to its initial appeal) then it would just go away, or simply flounder into non-existence as the small groups got smaller and smaller.


-- Allen

Satanists make no bones about their devil worship. Most of them actively oppose Christianity because that's what they believe (personally, as a Catholic Christian, I think most of them are dangerous--remember Richard Ramirez, the Satanist serial killer? He's one prime example).

You are woefully misinformed. Please educate yourself on this topic if you're going to cast aspersions on other people's religions.

If you are talking about the CoS started by Levay, which was obviously heavily influenced by Crowley, I think it's pretty accurate to say it's "in your face anti-Christianity".

Now there are myths about ancient satanist organizations that people will claim have been around forever, but they remain myths similar to the "oral tradition" of neo-pagans, another modern 1960s creation.

the concept of Satanists being dangerous devil worshippers and the use of Richard Ramirez as the prototypical satanist, lurking in the darkness waiting to slaughter innocents.

people will do what they want to do whether another group approves or not.

surely they will exist w/o the christians or whoever

in mythology texts that say "God" was originally the combination of good and evil and Satan was just a messenger of truth; lux ferre in latin meaning light bringer(lucifer). Interesting stuff...

Satanism is blown way out of proportion. There are Satanic organizations but they do not worship an entity named Satan. Most are a variety of Levay Satanists and are little more than hedonists with a discordian twist. They find a thrill in jabbing at Christian practices and causing confusion about who and what they are.

The glamorized movie image of a satanist is a extreme rarety. Typically little more that teen rebellion striking out at society.

that, that... there aren't really secret worshiping dungeons all over the U.S with blood-letting and sacrificing altars? The robed, chanting, darkened, candle-carrying, dagger-bearing, mystic-symbols, chained virgins, sexual torture image I've carried around are all FALSE??

Awwww... Where's the fun in that?? How boring!

-- Allen

Read that word hedonist again. Yes there are all sorts of naughty things going on within Satanic groups. But no one is dying. They are mostly having a good time. Orgies, bachanals, libations, any sort of thing that would drive a fundimentalist over the edge they will likely partake in.

I understand now. (The Evelyn Wood method does have its limitations and drawbacks. )

-- Allen

I have, and partied with them. Their parties tend to be sausage fests so to speak, and let's just say the culture is similar to a Star Trek convention or SCA or Ren fests. Let's say their devilishness has been greatly exaggerated :)

between what they think they should be doing and what they manage to do. It really depends on the social circles they find themself in and what degree of socio/ethical detatchment those circles have. Most are isolated individuals seeking ways to express their anger at a society that does not understand them.

Mostly because a lot of fundies assign that kind of stuff to Wiccans as well, which is also pretty far off.

It preaches selfishness, greed and revenge. All of these things are animal instincts that Christianity rightfully tries to get people to control.

selfishness and greed as virutues

Rand has to little investment in emotional states to be Satanic. Rand uses reason like a mallet on life and crushes the joy out of it. Satanists get carried away with trying to enjoy life to the extremes.

...Although maybe I've been lucky in the Satanists I've met - They're no more greedy or self-centred than the average human (and much less so than the average Baptist Minister). They just don't belive that being nice has anything in it in terms of eternal reward. They're atheists who aren't humanists, who like scaring Christians by calling themselves Satanists...

Incidentally, if you're into baccanalia...
http://booze-bibbing-order-of-bacchus.com

He copped to it years ago.

Gotta pay the light bill, baby.

Al Qaeda is to the BFEE

Take a handful of disorganized "bad guys" who may or may not actually exist, lump them all in one bucket without regard to any affinities or hatreds they may actually have for one another, give them a name, blame some heinous act(s) on them, demonize them relentlessly, declare "war" on them, blame every subsequent act of every "bad guy" on them, and PRESTO!

Instant boogey man.

Now, simply use the boogey man to frighten your subjects into obedience.

I always thought it was a joke and a reason to get together for a barbecue.

scaring those congregants into throwing money into the jar.

They believe in all things that feel good are good with very few limits. They stand for a society free of ethical and moral limits. The pleasure of the flesh over doing what is right if it comes down to that.

They say otherwise but....

as whatever is right for them.

The trouble with Satanism is it pays even less credit to our societal nature than Rand. That which we have determined to be right and wrong is arguably derived from a combination of our own interests and societies. Evil is effectively that which does not consider societies needs in deciding its course of action.

Fortunately most Satanist are more into the discordian aspect of the sect. Thus they are simply getting a buzz out of flaunting their practices towards the dominant dogmas of society. In truth if they were truly following the logic of their sect they would not band together to practice their beliefs as that gives nod to a societal structure.

You never fail to impress.

It wasn't until New Testament times and later that the concept of an evil being who is actually called 'Satan' or the 'Devil' or 'Lucifer' evolved. What's particularly interesting to me was the nomination of the US as "The Great Satan" by Islamic Iran. In the Quran, Satan (Iblis) is the "fallen angel" -- the one who refused to love and respect humanity (God's children) according to God's will.

The Islamic viewpoint is that in God's kingdom, certain creatures are necessarily given the powers needed to perform their duties. Satan believed that his God-given powers qualified him to function as an independent god. As evidenced by the prevalence of misery, disease, accidents, and war in his dominion, we now know that Satan is incompetent. Interestingly, "free choice" pervades Islamic thinking.

Thus, the ascription to the US clearly infers incompetence and a 'god-like' pretentiousness. It's hard to repudiate that viewpoint given our behavior under what we describe as "foreign policies."

let me tell ya brother....
ya can't have one without the.....oooootheerrrrrrrrr

it just wouldnt be called satanism. there is no reason why you couldnt worship any of the evil supernatural figures in other religons.

Satan is an important figure in the book of Job, which scholars say is the oldest of the Old Testament books to be written down.

Ancient pagan pantheons didn't have satan, although some of the gods and goddesses were more benign than others, and some of the cults had some practices that would be now ascribed to satanic worshippers. The Aztecs sacrificed children to their gods, some groups practiced cannibalism, many used blood in their rituals. I think that Satanists borrowed freely from these groups to come up with some of their rituals, which christians roundly condemn.

A few years ago, I was more into wicca than I am now. My mom used to go nuts over this (and she's a liberal protestant), focusing in on the athame (a knife used in religious practice). I told her the athame was a tool for conducting energy, not a knife to be used to injure someone. I further told her that I could use a knife to perform magik, or I could participate in symbolic cannibalism the first Sunday of every month-which is weirder? She had no answer to that.

"Satanism", whatever you want to call it, is a by product of Christianity.

Lucifer doesn't exist in the Jewish Bible in the same way he exists in the popular christian culture. The original meaning is something more like tempter, debater -- think the Book of Job. And I think even Jesus' temptations in the desert have more origins in this original jewish interpretation.

Actually, I think our popular mythology of Satan/Hell has a place of infernal torment and neverending punishment has more to do with the imagery in Dante's Divine Comedy.

edit: Subject line. D'oh!

I doubt it.
Just like Fundamentalist Christianity can't exist without a Satan to have something for jesus to save us from.
Alot of LaVeyans(not all) are basically fundamentalists for the dark side,hedonists and bullies who like to don devil masks and puff themselves up playing bad ass.They are elitist, into might makes right,Neitzche,Ayn Rand.(read the 5 satanic points).The Satanic bible by Lavey is a collection of reworded and ripped off material from Ragnar redbeard,Crowley Neitzche,Ayn Rand ect.)

The devils for Satanists are in the shapes of human empathy,caring for others,sharing and tenderness,self denial for something other than self, and the biggie is vunerability and losing control. It's all about maintaining an image.

In my experince Satanists are a terribly insecure bunch, bitterly fighting amongs each other ,trying to look wealthyier than they are to impress or act more "cultured" than they are,whilst carping and calling each other shit disturbers,and being abusive verbally to one another,especially the "outsiders looking in".

I myself got sick of the mind games satanists play for power and prestige and group admiration.It went againstt my heretic self.I was disgusted at the limits and shackles people put on each other in the name of "freedom from shackles" in the church Hierarchy and titles games involved in Satanism ..Laveyan Satanism is slanted right politically even though they deny it.Their favorite phlosophers are right leaning,The First sentance in the Satanic Bible after the intro is is Death to the Weakling/ wealth to the strong..
Satanists have a hard time with concepts of strength/weakness.
They can't define either word really yet they puff up and humiliate each other with these emotionally laden terms.Psychological abuse is rampant among Satanists because they are all about power and might makes right.

My own politics was subtly shifted to the right,after a time of involvement with the church I was not too aware of it until I looked at some changes I had made and I didn't like it,So I reverted back to my progressive self..Sick group mileus of any sort not just Satanic ones,can do this kind of mind warping to anyone involved in one..And you need not be"weak" to be influenced by it.

In thier Cloven hoof magazine in the mid 90's they interveiewed the likes of World Church of the Creator and other right exteremists as if they were legitamate organizations.Racists right wing groups would seek out Satanists on alt.Satanism for thier own ranks. There was a rivalry and later a fallout over this right leaning political stance in the Church with Tani A lady of questionable origins and credentials with some serious psychological issues who claimed membership in the JDL,who yammers about her devil incarnate the Klippoths.She is obsessed with them. She was a magestra was working with a small group of Satanists called "Satanic reds" a commie outfit with an eastern flavor ,and the same rigid control issues that later broke off of the Church of Satan(or was expelled).

I myself got out of Satanism because I got tired of the petty control freaks,manipulating assholes and suck-ups and the endless ya ya and verbal abusiveness rampant in the church.I wasen't into that kind of scene and sometimes you really don't know the scene until you get into it sometimes and see for yourself.I was pissed off so I gave 'em shit online for about a year and wrote a website critial of Satanism called The Bifid Barb.

Not many people really discussed deeper mysterious things in Laveyan groups because there was alot of posing,hedonism and social climbing /backstabbing games and theatrical orderly rituals. They dare not look insane rambling on about visions or spirits. I know for a fact No animals are sacrificed in Laveyan Satanism,and to Laveyans the Devil is an icon,not really a real being.Ritual is used as psychodrama and self amusement/emotional release. It is a way to manipulate the will of others.More like an S/m scene with psychodramatic overtones in a magical-like context.It ain't spiuritual.

However Egan's group, First Church of Satan is a little more spiritual and magickal than LaVey's group.His outfit was made as a disgusted frustrated answer to the Laveyans athiestic anti spirituality and control games. But Egan has serious psychologial issues himself and he has some skeletons in his own closet,and his church is a money maker for him..And Egan adopted the hierarchy he said he dispised,and from outward appearances has adopted a few of Lavey's faults.

Satan to me is like a shattered shadow he is a one trick pony.He is a limited thing.Just like Jesus is.When that fundamentalist symbiotic thing of good/evil is seen as your entire belief framework it gets old.

Yes it is good to face how ugly a person can become when infatuated with the illusion of control and power.I think it can be healthy to the human psyche for some people to openly and floridly explore the dark side of themselves..but be aware in the dynamics in any "church" there are mindgames and control issues that have nothing to do with understanding the satan.jesus mythos.Some issues in any organized church may have nothing to do with your own foray into the depths of darkness either,and in fact might be unhealthy for you.
IMHO if you wish to explore Satanism do it as an independant practitioner,or with a few trusted freinds.Groups of chronies can get sick in the head when power is their goal..look at the bush white house if you need an example.

The Gnostic understandings of the Christian/Evil phenomena go much deeper than what Satanism or your standard Christian church ever could offer.If you are looking to understand the darker side of life read the Gnostic texts,Nag Hammadi,The Jesus mysteries,Or Elaine Pagels.

Spirituality has many facets to see and they are varied as people are.Christianity and Satanism are a symbiotic thing.For Christianities' restraint there is Satanic excesses,eventually if you are exploring these things because you are striving for spiritual wholeness and to truly see beyond the trappings of culture ,you will move past both extremes into your own ethical/spiritual balance and understanding and you won't need a savior or a boogeyman anymore.The great mysterious will become clearer when it no longer requires masks,dancingf around emotional baggage, and limited cultural frameworks to be able to relate to you .
Happy spiritual spelunking,

Underground Panther in the Sky

Comanche creation myth
From: http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/ariel.htm#COMANCHE
One day the Great Spirit collected swirls of dust from the four directions in order to create the Comanche people. These people formed from the earth had the strength of mighty storms. Unfortunately, a shape-shifting demon was also created and began to torment the people. The Great Spirit cast the demon into a bottomless pit. To seek revenge the demon took refuge in the fangs and stingers of poisonous creatures and continues to harm people every chance it gets.

of one coin.

It would be a different conversation, if the question was "Could devil worship exist without Christianity"

n/t

Christianity is based on defining what is right and wrong, good and evil. Basically all religions are founded on this simple ideal. Using this core definition of religion, Satanism is just as legitimate as Christianity, and one could not survive without the other. They "need" each other.

Ironic, isn't it?