It's not about policies anymore

There's something remarkable and amazing afoot, people, and many of you -- including folks who should know better, in fact are natively equipped to know better -- are missing it. Completely.

I was just down in Politics and Campaigns reading a few threads and was reminded all over again that there are some people here who are willing to duke it out over this or that candidate's policies, as if that mattered. "My candidate's policies are better than yours." Or even, "My candidate's record is better than yours." And so on.

Folks, that's not what it's about any more, and it hasn't been what it's about for quite some time.

Disclaimer: I'm not writing this to either try to win anyone over to my candidate, or diss yours. I'm happy for you to support whoever you want to, as long as you do it honestly (i.e., without lying about or distorting anything about the other candidates). So, from Lieberman to Kucinich and beyond and everywhere in between, by all means support who you want. Haven't most of you insisted ABB?? If that's true, then the policies really don't matter anyway, do they?

MY interest in writing this is simply to try to inform my fellow DUers about what's happening right now across America. We DUers are usually such a well-informed lot, but I keep seeing people who don't understand, not even close.

The Dean campaign is something not seen in the United States ever before, and not just because of how they use the internet.

Btw, it's also not about left/right/centrist/moderate/liberal/conservative. Some Duers parrot what they read or hear from pundits, or cough up Conventional Wisdom. None of that applies to the Dean campaign. Or at least it hasn't yet, and I don't think it will.

Yes, Dean has made extraordinary use of internet tools, but that's not what's going on, those are only "the tools" to facilitate what's much bigger than that.

If one were to read Dean's June 23 Announcement speech (http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6455&JServSessionIdr011=rgrszger6h.app14a&security=1&news_iv_ctrl=1321 ), and read it as if he really meant what he was saying, which he did, you'll see that as he started campaigning, the process changed HIM and his understanding of what this campaign was really all about.

He came to understand by listening to the people he met that while he may have decided to run for President because he hated what George Bush was doing to this country, he saw that this was about taking back our country. Those aren't idle words to Dean, and they aren't idle words to his supporters, either.

Then, by a serendipitous convergence of vision (in what he learned about what this campaign needed to be about plus his own vision), opportunity (people responding to him and his message), and tools (the internet and all he and Trippi and staff bring to the process), something remarkable happened. This campaign morphed from a campaign into a movement. One guest blogger even wrote about just that: http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/001215.html#more

This movement about taking back our country is also reinvigorating and revitalizing the democratic process itself. Getting people directly involved again -- no, not as mere campaign volunteers, but as participants. The Dean campaign has become the first iterative, Open Source Presidential campaign in history.

It works something like this: The blog bypasses reaches supporters directly without filtering his message through media bias, interpretation and distortion, and keeps supporters intimately aware of and involved in the campaign. The campaign staff reads every bit of the blog every day and mines the ideas, the feedback, the news stories sometimes posted, etc., and passes them along to those who need to know in the campaign. MeetUps gets people together and they self-organize and get involved at the grassroots level, waging their own campaigns. It's not directed from above, except for some MeetUp activities which are important, but not the bulk of what's going on with the grassroots. (For example, there were over 1000 local activities scheduled for August which the grassroots dreamed up, put together, organized, implemented. NOT the campaign.)

In many ways, the blog is a 24/7 focus group, but it's really much more than that. As I said before: it's iterative, which I'd define as interaction which leads to positive and creative changes or adjustments in the overall project. The campaign takes some ideas and listens to feedback, and just as often if not more so, other grassroots Dean supporters pick up on and take some of the ideas and run with them.

None of this could happen without the right candidate with the right message, but it goes beyond that too. It's a happy and serendipitous mixture of all of the above. And a very integral and essential part of it is that people are responding to the ability to be involved in their democracy again, the ability to actually speak and be heard AND to have their concerns and thoughts given voice to, heeded. They're responding to the idea, and the reality, that we really do have the power.

They are responding to a man who is who he says he is, has integrity and character and most of all spine, as well as decent policy ideas (some of them terrific), and who speaks with clarity and without fear about what's wrong with the country and his ideas for making things better.

He's probably not right about everything (I could name a couple of things). But you see, that no longer matters, or not very much. For most people, he offers something that goes far beyond his "good enough to terrific" policies -- he offers hope. Hope in his honest and clear-eyed criticism of Bush. Hope in the vision he has for restoring America. Hope in the fact that he and his campaign value us enough as citizens and voters and Americans to LISTEN honestly and openly to us, actually use some of our ideas.

There are other good men and one good woman candidate out there. I've heard one candidate in particular touted as someone who can offer a "seachange in politics in this country" because of his policies. And others are touted, as I said, as having better this or that policy, or a better war record, or whatever.

The truth is, none of that matters anymore. When I think of the other 8 candidates, there is NOTHING that they offer that compares to what Dean offers. Some policies are better, some experience may seem better, etc., etc. But none of that approaches what Dean offers.

What people are wanting, and this is demonstrated every single day, over and over again, in the comments to his Official Blog -- and includes all kinds of people, even those never involved in politics before at all -- is what Dean offers. It's not something he made happen or planned. It's something he made a space for, he and Trippi. Something he facilitated. He happened to be the right guy at the right time with just enough of the right vision, along with the right tools, to channel the energy of a new American Revolution of people who are more than willing to participate in their government, as long as they have something to believe in again.

This IS the politics of the 21st Century. This IS the antidote to the darkside: hundreds of thousands and eventually millions of Americans who want our country back!

They're not just empty words either. We aim to do it.

I've said over and over, and I'll say it one more time: You simply cannot understand the Dean campaign if what you know about it is filtered through someone else -- including me. You have to take a look at original source material. Read the blog and some of its comments for a while. Listen to Dean himself. Watch the growth -- we added 1,000 MeetUp members just today, and raised $1,032,000 during the 4 days of the Sleepless Summer Tour over the past weekend. Look at the numbers of those who turned out in various cities during the tour.

Again -- Please, support whoever you want. Stay with your candidate, right straight through. I simply want my fellow DUers to understand what a remarkable, never-before-seen thing is going on here. A "seachange in politics" won't come from this or that candidate's policies, but from a movement, a movement of people taking back their country from the ground (grassroots) up, thanks to a small-state Governor a really creative campaign manager who were smart enough to allow it, and help it grow. YOU HAVE THE POWER!

No other candidate offers that, and no matter how much "better" any other candidate's policies or experience or ability to raise money or this or that, it still doesn't match or trump the utterly awesome thing that Dean is facilitating.

And whoever gets the nomination, if it's not Dean, will have to reckon with these newly empowered people, along with our intention to have our say by OTHER than just voting or sending money, being passive little political consumers. Whatever happens, the Dean campaign is changing America for the better, and in a very big way.

And I just wanted DUers to understand it, because they usually understand everything else so well -- well, most of them. ;-)

A couple of very interesting and illuminating reads from the campaign manager talking about this new phenomenon and how it works:

Trippi -- he "gets it," big time, and explains a lot:
Interview with Prof. Lessig:
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/001096.html

Trippi's recollections of the Sleepless Summer Tour
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/001273.html

Eloriel

Thanks Eloriel! :hi:

I walked away from the NYC Rally the other night almost MORE excited that I exchanged some mutual encouragement and a handshake with Joe Trippi - and he's the Campaign Manager!

Why? Because exactly as you say, Eloriel, it's the Open Source Campaign. Dean was the original engine behind it, but Trippi and the Media team have been the daily FACE of it. Constantly opening the floor for ideas from the masses and puting them into action. Turning small suggestions in to big events.

Like Dean said to the MeetUp folks at Falls Church, VA - "YOU taught us this..."

How nice it is to be ASKED to participate in a campaign, beyond writing a check every quarter.

Very nice post. :toast:

Oh, I like that. Perfect.

Eloriel

http://www.howarddean.tv/

And watch the Falls Church Rally (If you haven't already).

Dean is ON and goosebump/lump in the throat inducing!

Your right he was definatly on!

One of his best showings for sure. I love this guy and cant wait to vote for him.

I have to admit, when they brought out the bat in NYC to show we hit our mark of $1 million, I was choked up.

Dean TV is one of the smartest parts of his website.

which means we are all part of the team and that is so empowering!

I linked with dean early on because I was so disappointed with our milquetoast candidates and said to my friends one day, "Why isn't there any outrage? Where is the anger about what's being done to us?" Then I heard Dean and he displayed it and I loved it!

to say about Dean!

I had some really personal phenomenal stuff happen at work today concerning Dean!

I wore the "Dean for America" pin and had 5 different People ask me where I got it and from the ensuing conversation learned that they all thought he was a dynamic speaker and had the momentum to go all the way! There were two women and 3 men in 5 different encounters dipersed throughout the day at the Co-op! I was really excited to be talking about him; I felt like I was on the campaign trail!

I told them about the Meetups and how they could find out where it is on the web and I hoped I would see them there!

And this is a small town in middle New York!

And my friend who has a Bed & Breakfast had some guests who were for Dean. She was surprised because she thought they would be too conservative to be for a Democrat. I told her that Dean is appealing to People all across the Spectrum!

Trippi's recollections were interesting and poignant!
Thank you!

what an insightful and inspiring post... the folks the dean campaign has onboard NEVER cease to amaze me... :-)

My support for Dean has come about because of my uneasy feeling that nothing that has happened in the past two and a half years looks and feels real anymore to me. I am not sure that 9/11 was a real event carried out by terrorists.I am not sure that there is such a thing as AlQaeda or that there is a real person called Osama Bin Laden.
I am not sure that any of the people supposedly carrying out the hijackings on 9/11 were real people. I am not sure that anything that comes out of the mouth of Bush, Blair, Condi,Rumsfeld, Powell,
Cheney or any of the crowd that makes up Bush's advisers including
Rove, Hughes, Fleischer,Wolfowitz,Perle etc. is truthful.I am not sure that they care one bit about this country or its people let alone people in countries like Iraq.

Bush embodies everything that this country or its people are not.
The people of this country are the most generous,most forgiving and most hardworking of any on earth.Bush has exploited their generosity and perverted it into a death creating machine. Everything he has touched so far is unamerican in the worst sense of the word. He himself has no belief system except contempt for those less fortunate than himself and has a sense of entitlement that allows him to say that he prefers to be the dictator of this nation rather than the elected leader of a democracy where the will of the people is paramount. Even when he professes his belief in God, it appears to me he is putting on an act.

I for one am tired of these lies and double speak and want my country back.Governor Dean speaks for me.

It really needed to be said, and you said it beautifully.

Grassroots is the proven way to go for real change. The Dean campaign is helping people to see that they must take matters into their own hands in order to take back this country. I've never seen anything like this on such a scale in my lifetime. Dean is willing to behave like a true REPRESENTATIVE. He gives new meaning to 'Power to the people'. This is the first time I've felt truly involved in the political process, as if what I do could make a difference. His fund raisers are a good thing, because who would have thought he could have raised 1 million from 17,000 non-rich Americans in less than 4 days? I'm sure everyone who gave whatever they could, even though it wasn't much, feels empowered by what happened the other night, because we the people did it.

Dean has his ear towards the people and he and his campaign are very much tapped into the issues effecting every day Americans. I think this man is good for everyone in this country, not just liberals. We need to be reminded how a democratic republic is supposed to work.

We need to be reminded how a democratic republic is supposed to work.


Absolutely. And I love that he's appealing to Independents and some really dissatisfied Republicans as well. Greens too, some anyway. I love it because it helps heal America. We've been so divided (as he says), and it's time to bring back a little respect for one another. I'll GLADLY "give" on some of my own preferred issues if it means we can pull in more Republicans and Independents, so that they can learn that those of us on the left aren't so terrible.

Here are a couple more lines I love, which I read on the blog some months ago:

"Howard Dean makes me want to be a better American."

"Do you ever get the feeling you're an extra on a Frank Capra movie set?"

I love to read the blog -- for a natural high. It's so inspring to read people's comments -- their hope, their enthusiasm, and sometimes their very poignant stories. A lot of wisdom too.

Eloriel

I've actually been willing to entertain some real optimism since the Dean campaign began. ESPECIALLY after that weekend when the dick (cheney) went on his quest to raise 325-some-odd-thousand dollars at some fancy 2K/plate dinner, and Howard Dean's website raised more than half a million dollars over that same weekend, mostly from contributors who could give no more than 50 or 60 bucks each.

THAT is taking our country back. THAT is giving power to the people. THAT is seeing them actually take that power in hand and exercise it. THAT is democracy. And the fact that they listen to the points made by just-regular-people types out there, AND ACT ON THEM - tell me: HOW MANY TIMES have we lamented, here and elswhere, that nobody's listening, nobody's acknowledging or sharing our anger and outrage over what the bushies have done to our country, and that we're the Silenced Majority? How many times has that run through your mind? It's with me every doggone day. Now, we actually have a campaign where they ARE listening, paying attention, taking our ideas and making use of them, AND sharing and acknowledging our anger - then ACTING UPON IT!!!

You are correct - that NONE of the other candidates has tapped into that or made use of it. Hell, most of the time, most of them are dismissing or just plain scorning our anger and outrage. One of them even actually told us to "get over it." In this climate, where that anger and outrage is TOO deeply-seated and TOO justified, and TOO greatly ignored and put down for too damned long, Howard Dean and his troops actually get it. And they're doing something about it.

Bless you, Eloriel (I think I've said that a few times before, my friend) - you really said it well, here. I think you're onto something. And I think that's why you have Dean as a widely-recognized front-runner now.

policies are no longer important?

Okely dokely.

No where does it say that!

you just read it wrong.

Even if the other candidates want to attack his policy positions, it may be too late (unless there is a serious skeleton in a closet somewhere). Dean's campaign is already going manno a manno with Shrub, who is crying "uncle" already by claiming underdog status.

Unelect the Underchimp.

We've reached a crisis point in our history, when it will be decided whether America will stand as a nation that provides equality and liberty for every one of its citizens--or if it will be sold to the highest bidder to become a tool for the power-mad. My feeling is that, of all the candidates, Dean understands this best. I've also come to believe that he is the most electable among them. I have to admit that I've done this somewhat reluctantly, as I had real reservations about him when he first started out.

This is not a typical election, so what is needed is not a typical campaign. I firmly believe that grass-roots action at the community level is what will make the difference. We need to undercut the big-money corporate minions who are not above robbing us of elections, and the best way--perhaps the only way--to do that is to get the community activated. The stakes are real, and they are permanent. If * takes 2004, by whatever means, there will be no stopping the radical fringe from destroying everything the country was founded on.

I've always felt a strong sense of community on the Net, right from my first ListServer discussions in 1994. I think this is a powerful medium, a place to make connections, a means of working together across thousands of miles. Never before in history was such a thing possible.

Dean has the right ideas. I'm going to help him get them implemented.

Welcome to DU. :-)

I like the photo. :7

And what you said in closing was UTTERLY correct. "Dean has the right ideas. I'm going to help get them implemented."

HOW COMPLETELY BRILLIANT AND TRUE THAT IS! THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!!! I don't know how to shout it any louder!

That IS the point. That YOU, as an individual (undoubtedly a member of the "Silenced Majority") feel empowered enough, by the way this guy and his campaign manager are running things so far, to feel as though YOU CAN ACTUALLY HELP HIM get his ideas implemented. That YOU are not just another number or faceless non-entity whose only importance comes at the end of a pen poised over a checkbook.

The mere fact that they're reading, looking at, paying attention to, AND USING the ideas we little folks are sending in from the hinterlands is CLEARLY indicative of their realization that we all DO matter. How we feel, what we want, how outraged we still are, that actually matters to them and makes a difference. They're actually acknowledging and paying attention to that, and to us. They're taking it, and us, seriously.

That's a big point, and that's absolutely a seachange in politics. Totally interactive in every sense of the word. That's why he's very likely to win the whole ballgame, if he's this strong and doing this much this correctly, this early-on.

Let's go get 'em!

What is to say he will represent the people when in office. Who really has, in recent memory, on either side?

Policies are everything to me. Rhetoric and speculation about what is happening to Dean and how he is changing is of no importance, b/c you do not know that.

When it isn't about policies, I won't even entertain the idea of electoral politics in the case.

edit: I am extremely critical of this mass buildup behind Dean, by supposed liberals and members of the party that is supposed to represent the left. You say he 'has the stuff to beat Bush', but all he has of any substance is support, and why was that support placed on a Centrist?

And the Dem Leadership was largely silent, There was this guy standing up in front of 20 or 30 people in a hall in Iowa...

Oh, never mind...

let me know. I extremely skeptical, but I'm not THAT stubborn?

:hi: I do remember THAT someone :)

I think a LOT of people do. Like a lot of Dems and other voters who complained last November that the Dems didn't stand for anything. NOBODY ELSE was paying any attention to us. We were the "Silenced Majority" at best, and a "fringe group" and/or a "focus group" at worst. We were scorned, snubbed, ignored, dismissed, marginalized, and laughed at. And for sure, nobody thought to listen to us or give voice to our anger and outrage. NOBODY. NOBODY EXCEPT HOWARD DEAN.

Is anybody REALLY that surprised that he is where he is now?

I'm 55 years old and I've been around a buncha different blocks in my life, and I've always been utterly fascinated by what makes people tick. My mother used to say she'd take me to the zoo when I was a kid (younger than I remember, actually), and I'd watch the people. I still watch the people.

You, on the other hand, are 20. I read that in another thread. And happy birthday, btw.

I could be wrong. If so, it will be a crushing blow. But I don't think he's lying. And, that's been confirmed by at least 2 other sources. One was a very nice column (whose link didn't last) by a Vermont columnist who talked about how in a state as small as Vermont, there's no way to get away with backroom deals and hidden agendas. It's too small a state for there to BE dishonest politics. And Dean is the real thing. It was also confirmed by a woman I spoke on the phone with earlier this week whose doctor grew up with Dean and she confirms that he's a man of integrity and honor.

But I don't want you to take my word for it. I would prefer you figure it out for yourself -- you can either skip the whole thing and just go on policies, or you can do the hard work and take a look at him and what he's said, how he says it, what he does. Take the measure of the man for yourself. Or not.

As I said, I'm not trying to proseletyze in this thread. I support your right to be too cynical to believe him, and therefore to support your own candidate if you prefer.

Eloriel

but not your choice of words in 'too cynical'. I am not cynical of Dean, per se, as much as I am skeptical of his mass media appearences and the massive ground he's built in such a short time. He is painted as a liberal by the conservative media, which has done nothing but help him.

You cannot confirm he is not lying, no source can. Thom Hartmann, a Vermont resident, talks, on his show, of environmentalists hating Dean due to his siding with a company on an issue they had taken up. And he is supportive of Dean, too. He used the word 'hate',too.

This man is a Centrist, and if that many Democrats are centrist, then I guess the double-guessing of my (green) party affiliation is well unwarranted. Carter and Clinton were both in the center, and where did it lead us? The Congress and Senate, with thier Democrats, who need to be complicit for all the bad to happen, are, at best centrist.

What is the deal here? Do you really think another Centrist is the way to go? <--- if anything, among whatever you say, please answer me that.

edit: If you think you MIGHT be wrong, then follow what you want. I will follow what I want, as well. Time will prove one of us right, when the policies of the Democratic president take course and how far the blowback of the right-wing will go becomes a current thing.

But the opposite of cynical, is gullible.

The Green Party doesn't really try to get elected (except at the local level), but instead tries to spoil elections for Democrats, so they only have to appeal to a percent or two.

is centrist, I am liberal.

I support the Greens b/c they are liberal, but do not have faith in them. If you have read some of my posts you would know I have practically given up on electoral action.

All change has come through struggle.

edit: Three of the Nine Dems would get my vote, I'm sure you can deduce who they are.

I can respect your experience
but not your choice of words in 'too cynical'. I am not cynical of Dean, per se, as much as I am skeptical of his mass media appearences and the massive ground he's built in such a short time. He is painted as a liberal by the conservative media, which has done nothing but help him.

I'm a little surprised by the media as well. But some of it has been because he's genuinely been a newsmaker, and you can't deny that. LOL -- he's esp. been a newsmaker because everyone relied on CW to assume he was just "a flash in the pan," and "when the war is over, he'll fade," etc. I suspect in time they'll be beating up on him good.

You cannot confirm he is not lying, no source can.

I think I said that, tho not in those words.

Thom Hartmann, a Vermont resident, talks, on his show, of environmentalists hating Dean due to his siding with a company on an issue they had taken up. And he is supportive of Dean, too. He used the word 'hate',too.

I have come to think that Vermont is quite a bit more liberal a state than most other states are, and perhaps a little isolated (comparitively speaking) from the rest of the country. And that Vermont's "liberals" are REALLY liberal (which is a fine thing to be, of course, just that the term might therefore mean different things to people in Vermont versus other places).

This man is a Centrist, and if that many Democrats are centrist, then I guess the double-guessing of my (green) party affiliation is well unwarranted. Carter and Clinton were both in the center, and where did it lead us? The Congress and Senate, with thier Democrats, who need to be complicit for all the bad to happen, are, at best centrist.

:shrug: All I can say is that Carter was a very good man. Not a great President, but a principled one. I don't know that much about his Presidency because I wasn't paying attention to politics at the time.

What is the deal here? Do you really think another Centrist is the way to go? <--- if anything, among whatever you say, please answer me that.

I'm a liberal. Always have been, always will be.

For me, it's not about centrism, left/right/etc. It's about principle, this newly emerging grassroots democracy movement. What drew me to Dean was that he was unabashedly outspoken and that included about the war. He KNEW that the was was wrong and based on a pack of lies. And he said that Bush "hadn't made the case," from as early as I was paying attention to him. That mattered to me, along with his willingness to speak the truth about a lot of other things. A SPINE matters to me. Running a campaign without consulting the polls to figure out his positions on everything matters to me. A lot.

He calls himself a centrist and in many ways he is. I see a lot of quite liberal positions, and they thrill me. I see pragmatic, "centrist" if you like, other policies, and I can appreciate his pragmatism. I think his position on guns, for example, is pragmatic. I APPRECIATE his pragmatism.

I appreciate his ideas on healthcare. He knows his plan can pass. I appreciate that he says: we've been promising Americans healthcare since Harry Truman, and then we argue amongst ourselves about how we're going to reform healthcare, and the Republicans kill the whole thing, and then another 10 years goes by with millions of Americans without healthcare. Let's get this passed and THEN we'll reform it. I agree. Let's get it passed. His plan is the least offensive to the most players. It can pass. It's NOT "the best" plan -- it's the DOABLE plan. I buy that. I LIKE his pragmatism. I like his honesty about it.

edit: If you think you MIGHT be wrong, then follow what you want. I will follow what I want, as well.

Yes, again, that's what I said: stick with your guy. But I DON'T think I'm wrong about Dean, and I regret that the discussion has apparently turned into a contest.

Time will prove one of us right, when the policies of the Democratic president take course and how far the blowback of the right-wing will go becomes a current thing.

The next Dem administration, whoever's President, will be a nightmare. It will take great courage, great determination, great ability to pull the American people together and do the right thing(s) for this country. Howard Dean has done the right tho difficult things in the past, as Governor of Vermont. It won't be easy, and it won't be fun. Howard Dean is the candidate I most trust to be straight with Americans, and to have the intestinal fortitude to get us back on track.

But the opposite of cynical, is gullible.

Well, as with most things, it's not an either/or proposition. We're talking about a continuum. And I'm not usually the gullible one in the crowd.

Cheers!

Eloriel

The exteme radical left and the extreme radical right. Everyone else, even if they haven't agreed with all he's done, has immense respect for him. He is honest and a man of principle. What Eloriel said about that reporter's comment is true. Any dishonest or unethical politician in Vermont gets caught, exposed and kicked to the curb. The whole law making process is open to the public, too. There is no way to hide anything. Dean wasn't bad on the environment at all. In fact, he was pretty darn good. Occassionally there were some really tough decisions he had to make that angered the more radical enviornmentalists simply because it was in the best interest of the entire state to go against them. Our state has some of the toughest environmental rules in the country. A lot of the criticism you see posted here against Dean that comes from Vermont isn't coming from liberal Democrats, it's coming from the Socialist Party and other much further left groups. "Liberal" in Vermont means something much different than "liberal" everywhere else. Some up here are VERY, VERY extreme...and they do hate Dean. But not because he did anything wrong, just because he didn't cater to them. He's a good man and a great leader. If you want to get a real feel for what the campaign is all about you should go to a meetup and read the comments in the blog. Eloriel is right that this is a movement, but it's also a sense of community, and even family.

The extreme left and the extremem right:



Dean kept his distance from his party’s liberals during his governorship.

"He seemed to take glee in attacking us at every opportunity and using us as a way to form alliances with more conservative elements," said former state Sen. Cheryl Rivers, a leader of the state Democrats’ liberal wing and former chairwoman of the powerful Senate Finance Committee.

Dean fashioned himself a position in the political center of Vermont politics even as the state has moved steadily to the left...

To the anger of more liberal members of his own party, he insisted that the tax increases be rolled back on schedule and then went on to work for additional tax cuts later in his tenure.

http://premium1.fosters.com/2003/news/may%5F03/may%5F19/news/reg%5Fvt0519a.asp

More about the average democrats who were angered and disliked Dean in Vermont, not the socialists or Radical Republicans.

Dean lost a great number democrats to the Vermont Progressive Party due to his extremely conservative stance, and Dean only won the 2000 election due to getting a lot of support from Republicans:

One of those issues was Act 60, a law that many Republicans have opposed. Several times during the news conference, the Republicans said they disagreed with some of Dean's policies but reiterated their support for his fiscal conservatism.

Even Dean acknowledged that his fiscal policy was the common ground he shared with the nine men and two women at the table, most of whom admitted to voting for Dean in the last election.

The group, known as "Republicans for Dean" represents the first organized GOP endorsement for Dean in any of his five campaigns.
..

Gilbert, a former member of the late Gov. Richard Snelling's administration, said he took the initiative to form the group, which boasts a membership of more than 30 moderate Republicans from around the state who back Dean.

http://www.rutlandherald.com/election2000/repbackdean.html

Now come on and post real articles and sources to back your personal opinion that Dean was only opposed by the extreme left and extreme right.

Yawn

That definitely means Dean is a conservative!

:eyes:

campaign--that of giving us hope that we, in this country ,are going to have an administration we can believe in and one that believes in our people and our constitution. That sacred document has been subverted so thoroughly everyday in the past two years that it is no longer recognizable.The relentless bombardment of lies, obfuscations,
concealments and other crimes have produced such a deep despond among thinking people that all hope has vanished and the typical American optimism has been replaced by despair and powerlessness.

It is to Governor Dean's credit that he has recognized that the Internet, by encouraging widespread citizen participation,also reignites hope. I once read that there is an Arab saying that when a man has his health, he has hope; and when he has hope, he has everything. Governor Dean, as a physician, probably knows instinctively how to restore the health of our people and give us all hope.We are indeed fortunate to have him seek office at this critical time in our history.

Hey, that was some pretty significant and beloved thinking once upon a time. It's about time that whole notion was revived!

Thanks, Eloriel, for making these points here on du.com.
I testify: I hadn't heard Dean speak in real time and knew nothing of him other than that he was 'on the charts with a bullet.' And then I was in Philadelphia by chance on the day that he had a rally that 4000 people attended on a miserably hot humid August day. He spoke off-the-cuff in a totally coherent passionate manner and thought on his feet and responded directly to shouted prompts from the crowd on how to save the country from the BushNazis. I was won over then and there. From skeptical zero-to-sixty in one 45 minute rally across the street from the freaking Liberty Bell! When Dean's plane was late arriving and the local politicos were trying to kill time with rhetoric, I waited for a pause and shouted out, loud enough for the whole rally to hear "IMPEACH KING GEORGE!!" It was the most historically relevant act I've ever committed. The two days previous, I had been internally hemorrhaging from being in the birthplace of Democracy's Hopes under a Nazi occupation with tourists wandering around as if we still had a Bill of Rights. Dean's rally vindicated my hopes for a chance at rescuing the planet. I can still hear him telling the crowd "You have the power-take back your country!" If he's the one that has the momentum of people's hopes for a better life, SUPPORT HIM AS IF HE WAS YOUR OWN FAMILY! BY DEFINITION, HE IS JUST THAT!

I get my turn on Sept. 15 -- a public rally and I WILL attend at least one of the fundraisers. I can't wait.

YOU HAVE THE POWER!!

Eloriel

Thank you for that post. You have said what I've been thinking for weeks, but I never could have said it so eloquently or precisely. It's quite difficult to explain why "Deanies" are so fervent in their support, so quick to come to Dean's defense.

I've been following Dean for at least 5 months now. I've seen him grow from a nobody to the lead contender. It feels incredible to be a part of something whereh my voice is heard, especially after it was brushed off by this misadministration. I feel compelled to become more politically active and aware. It's not just the man, it's feeling empowered again, feeling like the people do own the government, and not vice versa.

next Wednesday. I hope to see many of you there.

Well, actually, I'll be at my local MeetUp.

And Dean's coming to Atlanta on September 15!!! Yeeeehaa!

Eloriel

You have changed my outlook now on supporting Dean...very thought provoking statement...!

I have been following Dean now since he announced he was running for President...I never looked at me being involved with the campaign in that way...thanks...!

Take Back Our Country 04...!

I thought I was going to meet The Eloriel.
So anybody going to the Gas Lite next Wed
on Wilshire? Not that crazy about "cocktail lounges,"
which is what the joint is listed under.

I'll buy you a Shirley Temple.

I might have to show up; that's less than a mile from where I live.

I hope to see you if you're there, A-. BTW, I think your Schwarzenegger parody stuff was hilarious. The people who didn't like it need a sense of humor tune-up, IMO.

DTH

Already over 60 people RSVPed.
See ya there. We should have our own
DU corner.

Last month's was great - the place was packed, wall-to-wall people. You couldn't move through the room! The first one I went to was I think February or something, really far back. And there were ten people, after a minimum of four had RSVPed and they were afraid they'd have to cancel if not for those four.

LOTS of momentum, and that's what we need - to GET BUSH OUT!!!!!!!

on edit -

DON'T fret about the "cocktail lounge" effect. When the Deanies get there, it's a people's hall, as it was last month. Nice little place, with their own PA system (which was very much needed for the speakers to be heard last time, what with the crowd there), and apparently they set aside time for activism on a regular basis. Other groups meet there, too. The owners were there and cheering with the rest of us. It's a nice, cozy little place and people seemed to be drinking mainly cokes and 7-ups and coffee.

Big age spread, nice demographic variety, and a couple of Greens in attendance - voicing their enthusiasm for Dean.

When I went there, I was pleasantly surprised (VERY pleasantly!) that a lament of Will Pitt's awhile ago was totally kiboshed. Will had written that he was despairing for the futhre of liberal activism because the only people he saw, almost without exception, on his book tour, were elderly people. He posted here on DU that he was discouraged by this, not seeing any young people, and fearing that liberal/progressive thinking was poised to die out with the elderly who came to hear him speak.

Judging from the Dean Meetups I've attended, and even the peace marches, we DO NOT have to worry about this. NOT ONE BIT! In fact, the majority of people at the last Dean Meetup looked to be 35 and YOUNGER.

I'll see you there. Looks like a couple of other DUers will, too! It's a nice little place for things like this. And NO lounge lizards! Everybody there seemed MUCH more sincere and earnestly interested in TAKING OUR COUNTRY BACK!!

Thankxs for that fantastic rundown. Now I am
not so ascared to go. Seriously, thanks.

Granted, there IS a bar that runs from ALMOST the front door all the way to the back. But what I will NOT forget about the last meeting was - once the main speakers were finished (they had an agenda and had several people talking up the campaign and all their grassroots ideas and future plans for which they hoped to gain volunteers), they asked all those who could - to write a letter to someone in New Hampshire, explaining Dean a little, in our own words (no astroturf)and include a little informational flyer, and they provided an address. Yes, a few people left after the regular stuff wrapped up.

But I will NEVER forget all the people at the bar. Every single one of them was hunkered down, bent over their little pieces of note paper as they sat at the bar, studiously writing letters. Every last one of 'em. There wasn't an open seat to be had at the bar. Everybody was writing. Another pretty sizeable group wasn't writing, but was clustered around a TV monitor at the front, running Dean's announcement speech. Some were paying close attention. Others were commenting to their friends on it. A few were watching with one eye and skimming some of the campaign literature with the other. Everyone seemed happily on the same team together. It was fascinating to see the groups break off and what the activities were. There were also a few boothsful of people talking politics amongst themselves, and all talking about how they thought Dean would be the best guy for the Dems.

If this was a true, bona fide cocktail lounge there wasn't a lounge lizard to be seen. And nobody was drinking anything that wasn't G-rated. Everybody there appeared to be clearly focused on the business at hand, and many people were paying attention and willing to work. And even those who didn't stay for any of the postmortems were leaving AFTER having taken a couple of sheets of literature or campaign flyers with them.

The girlfriend I brought with me was interested for herself, and for many of her office-mates. Seems when she'd indicated she might be going to a Dean Meetup, she was beseiged with questions from coworkers wanting to know more. She complained that they were already treating her as a Dean expert ane she didn't know much about him other than what she and I had talked about via email. She wound up taking a whole pile of papers home with her, to read, and to pass around at the office!

Also - since I'm assuming you're local, perhaps you heard of a guy named Jerry Rubin? He's a local activist and strong voice for the local Jewish Defense League and a longtime anti-war activist. He's been around for years on local radio and TV. He was there, and took the floor for a few moments to talk up Dean and the activism that Dean has sparked. It was really a mixed bag. Office wear and suits, combined with jeans and t-shirts (a few Dean t-shirts), dresses, slacks, shirts, coupla neckties. Conservative dressers and trendoids and casual in-betweens. A number of middle-aged women, some of whom looked as though they'd just come from work. A small handful of the "aging hippie" types. A BUNCH of earnest young college-age and/or grad-school kids, from the looks of them. I didn't smell a whiff of alcohol on anybody's breath while I was there, and sometimes we were sandwiched in with a bunch of people pretty closely. Sat with a couple of nicely-dressed but not ritzy young Asian women when I could get a seat - offered to me by a nice young man who said he'd rather stand.

I'm not a drinker so I can't really vouch for many bars and taverns. But I could see this was one of those little neighborhood watering holes. I was quite comfortable there.

While a divergent crowd, EVERYONE was completely united under one idea: the OUSTING of bush, preferably by Dean. You would feel comfortable, I'm sure. And it sounds like a coupla DUers will be there this time, too.

We'll probably see each other there, whether we know it's us or not (that is, IF you can see across the room through the crunch of bodies). When my girlfriend and I arrived there, a little late, we were unable to cross the room and remained huddled a couple of feet from the bar, just inside the front door. Too many people. And too many people leaning on the bar, listening to the oratory. And where we were, that part of the bar was covered with sorted piles of various Dean flyers and campaign info sheets, plus many copies of the Time magazine cover story. People were being encouraged to take them.

It was fun. I'll be going to more of these.

Looking forward to your presence there. You WILL be among friends, even if you never catch their names.

Issues are what makes us distinguish candiates. I wonder if FDR was regarded the same why would those who doubt Kucinich doubt him? Its issues that the people remember FDR with his new deal, Truman with his fair deal, JFK with the peace corps, and LBJ with the great society. How someone may act on the campaign trail may influence you but to totatlly ignore them on the issues is foolish. I am not gonna flock to Dean because he is popular, I invested my heart in to Kucinich thats why I support him, my heart. You see Kucinich speaks to my heart and its the issues not his standing in the polls. People remember issues in presidents not the campaign trail.

I think if you were to read my post again, with care, you'd not see me saying that issues are totally unimportant. After all, that's why we're Dems or Repubs, right?

And I'm NOT trying to sway you away from Kucinich, but my point about that which you're taking exception to is this: most DUers are insisting on this Anybody But Bush mantra come the general election -- that is, any Dem. Quite obviously, in the final analysis for them, issues DON'T matter. All the candidates are interchangeable for the general election. Right?

My much larger point was simply to try to let DUers know what is happening with the Dean campaign. I hope you got that part, because it's important. REALLY important. It's not important that you join it, or give up on your guy, or even agree with all MY personal enthusiasm for Dean. I just want DUers to "get it" about this campaign. That's all.

Eloriel

before it became the 'IN' thing. He has my heart and my vote unless something comes down the tubes to prove it is all a hoax. I believe it will take more than a centrist to get us back onto the right track.

I'm not saying I might not vote for someone else after the primaries, IF Kucinich doesn't make it. I just think that, contrary to popular belief, some people might be surprised at the primary turnouts.

Not everyone is as vocal. Some people, especially in this day and age, hold and keep their treasures close to their hearts :)

That was how should I say beautiful. Its not a hoax candie, Dennis is preaching to our hearts and souls, thats why I am for him. Ive invested my heart in Kucinich. He's such a great guy too, what a sucess story as well.

People did not sign onto the New Deal because it was "good policy", they did it because it gave them hope. Same thing with Truman, same thing with Kennedy, and LBJ's case, a hell of a lot of southerners did NOT sign on, but had to be dragged kicking and screaming. Policies do not get people revved up, unless it is one single issue that touches them near. Personalities, character, and charisma get people revved up.

You say that issues are what tell candidates apart, yet you contradict yourself by saying that you support Kucinich because he speaks to your "heart". That is NOT a bad thing by the way, but if you look at your own example, you see that issues are not doing it for you, instead there is an abstract element about Kucinich's campaign that touches a chord with you, and it is only peripherally about issues.

Just something to think about. There is another thread going that talks about Kerry playing a guitar in a certain manner at some recent event. The thread author is critical, and many people went totally bugshit about how it was pointless and was sad that such a thing could be considered any sort of issue. Those people are short-sighted, if not outright blind. Clinton, in playing the sax on Arsenio Hall, did more to beat George Bush than any policy statement he ever made. Issues matter more after the election than before.

Youre right I do have other reasons than just issues for my support.

... not a bad speech. And Dean is pugnacious - looks like he'll take Bush on. But he still sounds too general. The corporate media is going to parse him - they're going to nag him for details (thought they would never dare to challenge His Grand Eminence Bush), they're going to try and tie him up on every word.

Rocky road ahead, for sure.

Welcome to DU!

Eloriel

thank you for putting into words the feeling I have about Dean. I had not identified it as hope because I'd forgotten what it felt like! He's going to win!

make about a political campaign.

What I'm hearing from Dean supporters sounds disturbingly like what I've heard from new members of religious cults and people who've just gotten into Amway.

Bin-go!

I can recall the same arrogant, quasi-religious fervor and 'nyah nyah we're not list'ning' from McGovern's acolytes. They were mostly young and white, very well organised and energetic, they steamrollered the opposition (a memorable experience for the steamrollerees!), and they got him the nomination. And then were left bewildered, hurt, angry, and in denial by the election itself.

Ave capito novo, similis capito seneco.

heh I'm getting it now. It's not about positions, it's about image. It's not about substance, it's about rhetoric.

Kudos to whoever started the "open source campaign" meme and the "iterative" jargon - the Dean campaigners are the best Bullshit Artists I have ever seen in my political life.

It sounds like you see Dean negatively and can find a negative interpretation for everything said about him or everything he says.

Why isn't "listen to the people" considered an issue? Why isn't "take back the Democratic party, and take back our country" considered a position? Why don't you think that rhetoric is a way of expressing or establishing positions?

I am grateful for this thread, because I got pretty discouraged reading the latest slam at Dean on Counterpunch. Fuuny how they take time from punching Bush to also punch at the Democrats.

From the on-line quiz, I was 100% Green, but my strategic thinking is that if a Green (or very liberal) candidate cannot win a Democratic primary, then they have no chance in the general election and their prescence as a 3rd party only helps elect more repukes. The history of the socialist movement shows that we on the left have tended to hate other people on the left as much or more as we have hated the establishment. We perpetuate our subjugation by continuing our divisiveness. As much as Kuchies seem to detest Dean, I hope they remember ABB. As Alterman prophesied:

"For while Al Gore, like Bill Clinton, is certain to disappoint anyone naïve enough to believe that he will always "fight for the people against the powerful," as he continually promises, THE POLICIES OF HIS PRESIDENCY WOULD BE PREFERABLE TO Bush's IN almost EVERY CONCEIVABLE WAY (caps mine). The Texas governor has sought to minimize the two candidates' political differences by giving his conservatism what he terms "a compassionate face." But the unhappy fact is that, despite his rhetoric, Bush, together with Tom DeLay, Dick Armey and Trent Lott, is the de facto leader of a party and a movement that seeks to reverse decades of social progress as it simultaneously emasculates the federal government's ability to defend the interests of its poor and middle-class citizens. He could not oppose these policies and maintain his power base even if he wanted to--and there is no evidence that he does." Eric Alterman Sep 2000

Really I seem to recall that the person who started the thread to start a petition to remove Dean from the race wasnt one of our people. I also stood up against it. I dont like a lot of Dean's ideas being that I am very liberal economically and lets face it that aint Dean. I will defend Dean if I think it is valid but I will not hesistate to be critical of Dean if he promotes what he supports. We dont detest Dean, I dont want him getting the nod because I think I am ready for something else. We are ABB we Kucinichites, I hope you know that we dont detest dean but theres a lot we dont support that he does and vice versa. I wont compromise my ideas and get something I will only some what agree on, while I have a guy who I can respect, whos like me on the issues, and above all appeals to my heart. Also you may think he has no chance but I for one dont consider losing the primary defeat, defeat is not that.
Look WCTV is skeptical on Dean, his record isnt something he likes and frankly I share it, I try my best to be fair. Dont sterotype Kucinich supporters.

He is coming in a spaceship to take us all to heaven.

:eyes:

but this Dean thing is a parade that always begs be rained on. "Emotional thinking", which this is a prime example of, is emotion, not thinking.

I don't want to suggest that the Dean movement is a cult. But cults always claim the same infallibility, integrity, you-can't-get-it-without-being-a-participant things. Magical efficacy, earth-shattering insights, beyond the bounds of judgment of the hacks of the world always trying to drag down the Bearers Of The Light. Insistence that all other messages, communications, teachings are corrupt and misleading and trite.

I think the emotional efficacy of the Dean movement is easier to explain- the relief of being among the like minded, a certain shared hysteria about the future, a common set of diabolic opponents to vent all negativity upon (rather than each other), a hypnotic suggestiveness that you are now suddenly newly empowered. Basically, a Revival Meeting for a certain kind of secularists.

This is a "revolution" run by people from whitebread America for whitebread Americans, though. Some "revolution" that's going to be. And for you pre-2000 amnesiacs, I have yet to find out exactly what the significant distinction is between what Dean champions and anything Perot championed. Maybe the facade, the choice of running from the Right compared to running from the Left? Dean is politics at its most usual- it's as if none of his oh-so-savvy supporters had never heard of the word "demagogue". Or ever heard of Clinton's analyses of Bush Sr of 1992. Or the debates about Kosovo and Iraq here and abroad in the mid/late '90s. Or followed fundamental voting patterns, showing that bedrock political support for conservatism (such as it is pretended to be) in the U.S. is around 46% and continues to decline at a fairly constant rate of 0.7%-0.8% per year as it has for at least a decade.

What is different is the activity level of Dean's group of supporters. We shall see about their efficacy- my own assessment remains that about 30% of Democrats are actually of 'the Dean type'. I'm perfectly happy that they're willing to take to the front lines against Bush so early in this campaign- it should be a (much needed) learning experience.

in regard to your cultish you-can't-get-it-without-being-a-participant remark; it should be very obvious to you that taking back the country from the oligarchs now running it, is very a much a you-can't-get-it-without-being-a-particpant prospect. Certainly you can't be naive enough to think they'd say, 'ah, we made enough money, y'all take over and make this a decent society now, ok?'

If "We the People" are going to take the country back from the oligarchs, it will not be by passive means. It will take passion, emotion, and lots and lots of participatory action.

As for your "revolution" comments; I would point out the revolution of 1776 was also run by whitebread Americans for whitebread Americans.

I'm only partially invested in the Presidential campaign at this point; I've switched from supporting Dr Dean to supporting DK; but I think who the Democratic President in January 2005 is will not be as important as which party will control both houses of Congress at that time. For those to be brought back to Democratic control, active, energized, and (probably) angry people are going to be needed en masse to push out all or most of the corporate-owned ciphers currently holding those positions on both sides of the aisle.

It will require people to challenge the two-party conventional wisdom of not putting up opposition candidates in "safe Republican districts."
These people are not going to come from within the highly organized DLC faction of the party.

I think it is a good thing that Dr Dean is getting supporters excited and emotional.

This one thing I am certain of: we the people need to decide how much we care about the fate of this nation. Are we willing to take on the long, hard battle of retrieving it from total economic collapse, or will we sit back, wait for the crash and then try to figure out to survive among the ruins.

I don't think Dennis is going to be able to catch up to Dean...I don't think anyone can at this point. I really hope that Kucinich supporters who understand how important this election is will join The Dean Machine if Dennis should drop out. The more of us prepared to get this done, the better, and as far as I'm concerned, Kucinich supporters would be a welcome and valuable addition to the Take Back America movement. Besides...at the speed this machine is moving, people are going to have to either join or duck for cover, because we are not stopping for anything. :D

on our behalf ALWAYS for the rest of his life. He won't disappear into the night...sorry :)

IF for some reason, he does NOT make it Dean (or whoever gets elected)had better watch his/her step because I'm sure Kucinich will be there calling him/her on everything that goes against the poor and oppressed of this country and the corporations taking over this country. I hope Dean (again or whoever) and his/her supporters will be ready for the magnifying glass, if and when that time comes.

Good luck to each of you, no matter your choice. As you have so aptly put it, it is time the tide was turned in favor or the poor and oppressed and away from this two party system of injustice run-amuk.

Actually, the saddest thought for me is Dean (or someone like him/her more centrist leaning) gets elected and afterwards everyone becomes dejected again because things don't change that much or fast enough, if at all, except on the surface...kind of a white-wash job. THAT to me would be a sad moment.

DISCLAIMER: I am NOT implying anything...

This is one of his strongest assets. He inherited a mess in Vermont and he really turned things around wonderfully. Granted, the nation is in a much bigger mess than Vermont was...but Dean has proven success in dealing with difficult messes and fixing them. It's probably the doctor in him that attributes to this. He looks at the situation, the facts, the options, the risks, costs and potential outcomes and then makes a decision on the best route to take and then he stays the course and gets the job done. It's going to take someone with the balls to know how to say no and explain why we need to do the things we must do to fix this mess. I don't foresee anyone else being able to resist the temptation to grant favors and be swayed by polls and criticism. We need someone with a proven ability of executive leadership and handling of things. This is too big of a mess to hand over to someone who doesn't have executive experience. Right now this is about saving our country and undoing a hell of a lot of damage. It's not the time to be trying to push new agenda and sweeping changes...the mess has to be fixed before we think about that stuff. Dean is the best guy to tackle what needs to be done right now.

Dean has actually governed before (successfully) whereas Perot spent his life amassing a fortune.

Also, Perot's followers seemed to have been "pushed" to his cause (mostly disaffected Republicans, I believe), whereas Dean's army truly seems drawn to him.

Not to mention that Perot was "about half a bubble off plum" (remember his daughters wedding, etc.)

Otherwise, your point is well received.

The 30% of Democrats that you estimate are the "Dean type"; are you referring to party members that have voted? What if Dean can bring new people to the process? I think that could happen. Do you think the rest of the party will fall in line if Dean is the nominee?

I think Dean is on to something, something big.

That is not a knock on any of the other candidates, just that their timing might not be so good this year.

Bush would never do that.

I've been reading up on Barry Goldwater's 1963-64 campaign. Dean seems to be smarter than Goldwater, in that Dean is moderating his positions as his campaign gathers steam (Dean, at least, understands the value of policy), whereas Goldwater wasn't interested in doing that. What reminds me of Goldwater are Dean's supporters, not Dean himself, which is rather odd. Some of Goldwater's campaign slogans, by the way, should ring a bell: 'A choice, not an echo,' (Dean supporters used to say things like that until Dean began moving his image towards the center); 'Cures for What Ails America' (almost painful, that one); 'In Your Heart, You Know He's Right,' (another one that would have applied to Dean at one point, notice the 'heart' though -- Goldwater's 'heart' campaign got its brains beat out); there are others.

As the campaign wears on, and Dean becomes exposed to more and more mainstream voters who don't care about Democratic anger, he'd better have some kind of rational policy scheme in place. There are a finite number of people who are willing to buy into a 'movement,' and pretend to themselves that policy doesn't matter; the rest are the people who will actually be deciding the election.

And I who watch, listen and read as much as I can of Dean am at a loss to explain how ANYone can claim this -- except that they must be getting their information from other than direct sources.

You know, when people are researching anything, whether they be historians or other types of researchers, direct "original source" material is always preferred to any other kind of information.

And IMO your comparing slogans and supporters to Goldwater is just as specious. Or perhaps I should say ill-informed. I see no comparison at all.

Eloriel

He started out with Wellstone's slogan, 'I'm from the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party,' which implied that he's some kind of liberal. In actual fact, from what I can tell he's the second-most conservative candidate in the field next to Lieberman, and he's spent the past few weeks burnishing his image as a moderate: stressing his balanced budget record in Vermont, denying he was a liberal during an interview, stressing his support of all the wars we've had except the Iraq war, giving himself wiggle room over Cuba: and so on.

I'm not faulting him for this: it's why I don't compare him directly to Goldwater, because unlike Goldwater, Dean's not going to allow ideology to interfere with electioneering. But Goldwater had a certain stubborn blindness that was dangerous, and I'm seeing that more and more among Dean's followers:

-- A couple of days ago, someone described Dean as 'The most gifted politician since FDR.'

-- The notion that Dean will somehow transcend policy, and will win the election based on this tremenedous 'movement.'


I see a herd mentality forming, and it's dangerous. To beat Bush, it's going to take rational thinking, because the majority of the electorate isn't going to be swept off its feet by some 'movement.' They want to know what Dean is going to do for them from a practical, ie, policy standpoint, not how warm and fuzzy he's going to make them feel because he talks tough at Bush.

He started out with Wellstone's slogan, 'I'm from the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party,' which implied that he's some kind of liberal.

Nope. He thought that comment came from some California elected person (he named her on several occasions, but I never caught it), which is where he first heard it. He only knew that Democrats weren't standing up for anything, and that line seemed to capture that notion pretty well. When it was pointed out to him that it was a Paul Wellstone line, he immediately started talking about THAT in his speeches -- saying explicitly that he didn't share Paul's politics, but he certainly admired and shared Wellstone's willingness to stand up and fight for what he believed in. No political calculus such as you suggest in either his original use of the slogan, nor his abandonment of it since.

In actual fact, from what I can tell he's the second-most conservative candidate in the field next to Lieberman...

I suppose that could be true, though I certainly don't think of him in that way. And the comparison does nothing for accurately depicting Dean's positions on anything.

... and he's spent the past few weeks burnishing his image as a moderate: stressing his balanced budget record in Vermont, denying he was a liberal during an interview, stressing his support of all the wars we've had except the Iraq war, giving himself wiggle room over Cuba: and so on.

Except for Cuba, NONE of what you mention is new or different in any way. It's all been there from the very beginning. He may have added his previous support for the other wars more regularly and emphatically in his speeches, but it's hardly a new position or even a new comment.

I'm not faulting him for this: it's why I don't compare him directly to Goldwater, because unlike Goldwater, Dean's not going to allow ideology to interfere with electioneering. But Goldwater had a certain stubborn blindness that was dangerous, and I'm seeing that more and more among Dean's followers:

-- A couple of days ago, someone described Dean as 'The most gifted politician since FDR.'

I don't think that was a DUer saying that. IIRC, a DUer was quoting some political pundit somewhere. Hardly a "follower."

-- The notion that Dean will somehow transcend policy, and will win the election based on this tremenedous 'movement.'

Well, if you're suggesting that's what *I* said, you've badly mischaracterized it. I will refer you to my post in response to Iverson below. First, I'm not suggesting Dean "will somehow transcend policy," all of what I said had to do with what is happening as a result of the campaign -- and the people -- not Dean himself. In fact, I specifically said Dean is a facilitator of this "movement," and repeatedly pointed out that it was a serendipitous convergence of a lot of factors, not least of which was Dean's/Trippi's willingness to ALLOW it.

Second, I never said or suggested that he would "transcend" policy, I said that what's going on as a result of Dean and his campaign goes much farther than just policy.

Let me put it this way. You've got 8 guys and 1 gal out there. All of them have policies. One of them has policies PLUS. (I do realize I'm discussing this with a Clark supporter, so I suppose there's a built-in unwillingness to understand -- but what the hell, I'll give it a whirl anyway.) And that "PLUS" is nothing less than a reinvigoration and revitalization of the democratic process.

NOR did I say he would win. We can't know that. We have no idea if he'll win the nomination -- tho IMO it's looking pretty good. And if he wins that, no idea if he'll win the general election. A LOT can happen between now and then, and many of us are very clear about what lengths the opposition might go to -- is capable of going to -- to prevent a Democratic win.

In fact, what I said that whoever wins the nomination will need to be able to capitalize on what is happening within the Dean camapaign.

I see a herd mentality forming, and it's dangerous.

Then you see a figment of your imagination.

To beat Bush, it's going to take rational thinking, because the majority of the electorate isn't going to be swept off its feet by some 'movement.'

You might be surprised. An awful lot of people who've never been involved in politics before are getting "swept off their feet" (to use your term chosen to amplify your "herd mentality" remark) in this movement, along with a lot of people who have been involved in politics for a long, long time. You really ought to read the Trippi pieces I posted links for. At the very least, your arguments would come from a more well-informed place.

They want to know what Dean is going to do for them from a practical, ie, policy standpoint, not how warm and fuzzy he's going to make them feel because he talks tough at Bush.

To win the election it'll take both. Your comment reminds me that some ill-informed pundits like to say Dean is too angry -- that you need a hopeful, positive message to win the election. That's 's just ignorant. He does offer a hopeful, positive message. He offers both.

And plenty of policies, just like the 8 others.

Eloriel

Nope. He thought that comment came from some California elected person (he named her on several occasions, but I never caught it), which is where he first heard it.

Whether the slogan came from Wellstone or not isn't the point. The point is that, it makes Dean seem like he's from the left of the party -- the traditional 'Democratic wing.' In actual fact, that's not true, of course -- but the slogan, and the image, suited his aims at the time, so he adopted it, and a large number of people swallowed his candidacy whole as a result, and haven't spit it back out as he slides closer and closer to the middle.

Except for Cuba, NONE of what you mention is new or different in any way. It's all been there from the very beginning. He may have added his previous support for the other wars more regularly and emphatically in his speeches, but it's hardly a new position or even a new comment.

Please show me where I said it was 'new or different.' His stressing of it is certainly 'new and different,' however, which was my point.

I don't think that was a DUer saying that. IIRC, a DUer was quoting some political pundit somewhere. Hardly a "follower."

It was a DUer. It was only a few days ago, so a search would reveal the miscreant, but the point, of course, is that that sort of over the top attitude isn't an isolated thing among Dean's supporters.

Well, if you're suggesting that's what *I* said, you've badly mischaracterized it. I will refer you to my post in response to Iverson below. First, I'm not suggesting Dean "will somehow transcend policy," all of what I said had to do with what is happening as a result of the campaign -- and the people -- not Dean himself. In fact, I specifically said Dean is a facilitator of this "movement," and repeatedly pointed out that it was a serendipitous convergence of a lot of factors, not least of which was Dean's/Trippi's willingness to ALLOW it.

I'm not in the business of parsing words. Obviously, by saying 'it's not about policies anymore,' and crediting Dean with leading this earth-shaking movement, you are saying his candidacy transcends policy.

But just to play around here, I'll use your own words, plus the definition of 'transcend,' to demonstrate that that's exactly what you meant:

But you see, that no longer matters, or not very much. For most people, he offers something that goes far beyond his "good enough to terrific" policies -- he offers hope.

And now,

Transcend: 1 a : to rise above or go beyond the limits of


Granted, you used about 200 extra words to say Dean's candidacy transcends policy, but it is what you ended up saying. The rest was fluff.

Then you see a figment of your imagination.

Opinions, opinions...

The rest of your post is essentially a poorly-cloaked personal attack -- I need to be 'well-informed,' (somehow reading campaign material from Dean's campaign manager is going to 'inform' me??); I remind you of 'ill-informed pundits,' and further such blather.

http://lists.psouth.net/pipermail/discuss-mainegreens/2002-December/001001.html
Here you are
look closely
That said Paul Wellstone rocked
Also if he were still alive
Wellstone/Kucinich
they have a bit in common too, both were professors, and great guys too.

Whether the slogan came from Wellstone or not isn't the point. The point is that, it makes Dean seem like he's from the left of the party -- the traditional 'Democratic wing.' In actual fact, that's not true, of course -- but the slogan, and the image, suited his aims at the time, so he adopted it, and a large number of people swallowed his candidacy whole as a result, and haven't spit it back out as he slides closer and closer to the middle.


You are attributing motive to his use of Wellstone's slogan that weren't there. And I explained it. And yet you cling to your opinion not grounded in the facts.

For the record, I'd never HEARD Wellstone say that. And I'll bet most other people who heard Dean say it hadn't heard Wellstone say it either and so couldn't have drawn the inference you and the press claimed.

Eloriel

When Dean said he's 'from the Democratic wing of the Democratic party,' what he really meant is that he's a centrist.

It was one of his most well known quotes IIRC, maybe some Minnesonians can tell you otherwise. BTW I seem to recall Wellstone's former chief of staff not liking what Dean said. That was Paul's slogan and another great quote, is that one in breezygirl's sig. Wellstone was in a class of his own, I really think had he lived I would be all for a Wellstone/Kucinich ticket, Wellstone would make up for Kucinich's past pro life record, Wellstone also had more experience no offense to Dennis youre still my man Dennis, and other things like perhaps an ablity to raise money. I would love a Wellstne/Kucinich ticket unfortunely Paul died so I support the most progressive and admirable democrat in my opinion, Dennis Kucinich, on vice presidents for Dennis I like Barbara Lee, John Lewis, etc someone progressive and likeable, Lewis has that.

(I do realize I'm discussing this with a Clark supporter, so I suppose there's a built-in unwillingness to understand -- but what the hell, I'll give it a whirl anyway.)

:eyes:

For all those people asking where the Dean-supporters who slam the Draft Clark movement are...here's one example.

DTH, Who Also Loves Dean

I have an immense amount of respect for the late Paul Wellstone, but personally I think he was misrepresenting the Democratic Party. IMHO, what the Democratic Party truly stands for is the betterment of all. That is not the same thing as being strictly liberal, because the reality of the situation is that some level of pragmatism must play a part. There will always be limitations on resources and competing interests. It is not possible to do everything that liberals want to do. The trick is finding the way to do as much as humanly possible. That is why I feel the statement of "the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party" is more applicable to Dean than even Wellstone, who originally came up with the phrase.

Actually I think it applies to Wellstone better, someone in that wing support is based on an alliance of all kinds of people, something Dean may do but Wellstone did. Wellstone was an all around liberal and he felt what he did was right for his constiuents and the party. He wasnt doing what the liberals wanted to do, while I bet they supported a great deal of it, Wellstone was doing what was best for the farmers, laborers, and others of the state of Minnesota needed so I guess liberals supported that but it was because he was about helping the people of all kinds that it applies to him.

I sense a shifting "it" that is your subject. If you are arguing that we have a crisis of democracy that transcends policy issues, then I'm inclined to agree. If you are arguing that formalized debate is not a faithful replication of the political landscape, I also agree. If you are arguing that policies do not matter, then I disagree. Maybe you are arguing something else.

In any case, I argue that policies give meaning to our political preferences, so they will always matter.

Thanks in advance.

Dean's policies, along with his spine and willingness to engage it, are what drew me to him. It will be the same for millions of others as we go forward.

Read it again:

I was just down in Politics and Campaigns reading a few threads and was reminded all over again that there are some people here who are willing to duke it out over this or that candidate's policies, as if that mattered. "My candidate's policies are better than yours." Or even, "My candidate's record is better than yours." And so on.

Folks, that's not what it's about any more, and it hasn't been what it's about for quite some time.


I'm arguing none of what you suggest, tho this line strikes me as related to what I am arguing:
If you are arguing that we have a crisis of democracy that transcends policy issues, then I'm inclined to agree.

What I'm arguing is that what is going on with and within the Dean campaign transcends policies. Though it couldn't have happened had Dean not had good policies.

So it's not that policies aren't important -- it's that in this campaign, when other candidates or their supporters want to argue policy differences (or even any other differences), they're off the mark because the Dean campaign has become so much MORE than that. WAY more than that. Indescribably, and unexpectedly, more than that.

I don't know how else to put except to repeat myself from elsewhere in this thread or others. But I just encourage people to read the blog comments and form their own impressions of what this campaign is all about. Don't even take my word for it or desription -- go to the original source material and make your own observations and assessments.

Eloriel

:hi:

:kick:

Open Source Presidential campaign in history."

Wow. That is an amazing insight. Thanks Eloriel.

I don't think I came up with it, exactly, altho I did begin to "see it" myself before I encountered the terminology. Read Trippi. He explains EVERYthing. ;-)

Eloriel

I spent some time reading through the blog...

This is NOT a normal election.

Thank you!

:hi:

Thanks very much!

-- Allen

"Oh my god, this guy might actually win!!!"

The horror, the horror...

Somebody needs to Photoshop Dean's face on Marlon Brando's head from 'Apocolypse Now', since we've been accused here of being in some sort of 'religious' cult.

BTW - When are they choppering in the dancing Playboy Playmates???

:evilgrin:

:toast:

...then what sort of taking our country back are we talking about? And what is it about? From what I read of the Dean campaign, I wouldn't get the impression it is much about anything I would call a progressive direction. And believe me, because he is popular, and because (though not a Dem) I end up working on Dem campaigns, I do keep trying. Hope springs eternal, but I do find it peculiar that the more popular he gets, the less Democratic he sounds. And I am 53, and have been around the block on a few campaigns, so please don't assume some sort of innocent idealism. Idealist, yes, innocent, no. I voted with a held nose for Clinton. But one does get weary of the same old same old, and merely slowing down the global profit and war machine for a few years only makes it stronger in the end.

'cause apparently you haven't done that, or read either of the Trippi articles, or gone to the blog.

If you're "reading ABOUT" the Dean campaign -- including my posts!! -- you're not getting the straight scoop. Some of the media insists on seeing him (and reporting him) through their own lenses, which are biased and bent by the conventional wisdom they're so sure is right, ALWAYS. Some of them have ulterior motives in misrepresenting him and his campaign.

But one does get weary of the same old same old, and merely slowing down the global profit and war machine for a few years only makes it stronger in the end.

Well, Dean and his campaign are definitely NOT the "same old, same old." That much I can assure you, though I'd much rather you get that yourself, from original sources.

I won't comment on the global pofit and war machine issue because -- well, our REAL problems go far, far deeper than that (but include it) and unless our real problems are discovered and completely rooted out (hint: BFEE), ANY Dem President will only be a temporary respite. But AFAIC, all that's a subject for an entirely different thread.

Eloriel

and every other post in this thread. As well as in a number of other threads. As well as other sources. You are entitled to your opinion, as I am entitled to mine, based on our own sources of information and our own analysis. I am quite capable of deciding where to get my information, as I am sure you are. I am not trying to convince anyone, I merely state my own analysis at this point in the process. And nothing written here or elsewhere has changed my view that Dean, after a beginning that was perhaps mildly promising, is rapidly becoming or revealing "the same old".

Take an honest look at the mess Bush has made...and I mean a long, hard, honest look. The next president has his work cut out for him. Before he is going to be able to make any steps beyond where we have already been he's going to have to get us BACK to the furthest we've gone. Thanks to Bush, we aren't there anymore...we've moved backwards. He is destroying the very foundation of this country. Idealism under normal circumstances is one thing, but there's no room for it in this battle. I'm not saying it's not important, because it is...but if it's causing any division whatsoever, it's gotta be stuck in your pocket for a little while until this mess is cleaned up. In less than one term in office Bush has managed to take the largest surplus in US history and turn it into the largest debt in the history of the world! We CANNOT argue and fight over idealism right now, we have to unite together and pry every last bit of influence and power out of the greedy, stingy, bony hands of the right wing. We are never going to be able to do it without unity, determination and a willingness to make some SACRIFICES. When the good of your nation is so much at stake, it's that willingness to make those sacrifices and fight the hard fight that makes for change. If we don't do this NOW you might never get a chance to see the progressive change you're hoping for in your lifetime. Dean has the energy to lead this revolution against the right. He has the grassroots energized and active on a level unlike ever seen in US history. He's making people who didn't care before suddenly start caring and getting involved. No one else is having that kind of impact. Dean is the one and it gets clearer every day. It's not about right and wrong anymore, it's about stopping the insanity and undoing the mess we're in.

If it is not about policy...


...then what sort of taking our country back are we talking about?




The sort of taking back our country wherein THE PEOPLE get to be really involved, and in a meaningful way. They get heard by the candidate; the candidate and his campaign incorporates their ideas.

I suppose you could call that a policy. Really, it's more an attitude opf actual respect for both the voter and citizenship itself that has been completely missing from the political process for decades.

It's not that it's NOT ABOUT POLICY, it's about policy and so much more -- citizen involvement. Citizen buy in. Citizen funding of a campaign really meaning something. Citizen grassroots organizing and efforts and outreach, ORGANIZED by the citizens themselves (as opposed to the campaign directing their efforts). People believing again that they DO have the power to change this country. And a politician who hands the power right back to them, which is quite remarkable enough, actually. I think Kucinich is not far from this, but IMO the others don't have a clue.

I guess one of my points about it not being about policies anymore is that it doesn't matter to me WHAT policies "the others" might come up with -- and frankly, some of them have some decent ideas. I love Edwards' college for all idea, for example. But none of them offer this revitalization in the democratic process, which has become to some of us as important or more so than the policies.

And yes, you're certainly entitled to your own opinions, no matter how bereft of factual basis they are. ;-)

Eloriel

I wandered into the wrong room...here, "it's not about policies" is a "fact", "it's not about right and wrong" is a "fact"...now I understand. I think I'll wander back to politics and campaigns, where "facts" usually at least based on on some kind of objective criteria.

The Democrats need what Howard Dean has got if they want to revitalize the Party. Unless you are protective of the status quo, you have to come to terms with at least this much. And if you are further left than Dean, you should be particularly thrilled about his use of "direct action" people-powered ideas and small donation political fund raising to get his message out. Even if a Dean Presidency fails to live up to the aspirations of those who supported him, it will be worth its weight in gold to future progressive moments because of its groundbreaking strategies in grassroots' empowerment.

So, unless you are intent on protecting the rich-get-richer status quo in this country for the foreseeable future, stop trying to throw a monkeywrench in Dean's grassroots explosion out of petty jealousy that he, and not your guy, happened to be the one who was saying the right things and the right time with the right tone.

We need to take back our country RIGHT NOW, and then never let it get away from us again. We put Dean where he is today, and if we just nuture the power we've unleashed with a modicum of care, we'll be able to replace him with someone even better in 2012 (or even 2008, if Dean somehow manages to forget who made him).

Every committed progressive should see at least this much hope in Dean's campaign.

Remember when you were a young activist and thought "maybe it has to get worse before people wake up"? Well, I've got a newsflash for you. That day is here. It has gotten a HELL OF A LOT WORSE IN JUST THE LAST 2 1/2 YEARS. And many of us are so fucking awake now that we hear every backroom whisper like it was a train going by. And we're starting to make so much noise ourselves that a few more Americans are stretching, wiping their eyes and then joining our little festival of human alarm clocks every single day.

Dean facilitated us by saying what we desperately wanted to hear and acting like a true public servant rather than a corporate shill, a mobster, a handled "product" or an inside "player." But WE are the ones using OUR power again, and that transcends Dean, all of the other candidates and even the entire Clinton era. And it's not going to be easy to put this genie back in the bottle. This -- and not Dean per se -- is why our current corporate masters are already shitting bricks about Dean's excellent adventure.

Are you EVER nailing it! These words, and Eloriel's should go farther. BOOKMARKED

than his handlers.

He's not afraid to change his mind.

He's not afraid to tell the truth.

He's not afraid to say something you might disagree with to your face and then explain his reasoning while conceding yours.

Plus, he's a Democrat from Vermont, a caring physician, and his heart in the right place when it comes to trying to help government fulfill its role as the servant of the governed.

It's not everything I want, but it's what the USA needs.

This isn't any same old same old anything

If it were a normal election, if there were any sanity left in the repubs in power, if they didn't run the *entire* govt, we might have the luxury of running a liberal's liberal who vows to destroy the military industrial complex and its global offspring.

But the current crisis in which we find ourselves is one that threatens our very foundations. While I find myself very near to many of Dean's positions and excited about several, none of the others are deal breakers for me, considering the stakes.

And the real plus- the energy- is in what Eloriel describes. People vs corporations- a shot at participating, almost like the dawn of something, that's being grasp on a scale not known in our recent history.

Consider how insurmountably hard it appears to be to establish anything we recognize as a democratic republic in Iraq. That's nothing compared to how hard it should be to take democracy away from those who've known it.

I can't even imagine what the unrestrained 2nd term Bush admin might look like. This is our chance.

on how the current state of affairs is best addressed by the eventual Dem candidate. I understand your position; my own is that the Dems have been singing this song for a good while. I think that genuine progressive policies on wages, taxes, and health care would resonate more now with the public than at many points in the past. As for "people vs. corporations" I agree, that is a central issue. And one that I also agree (if that is what you are saying) has power right now with the public. However, Dean's positions on trade do not sound much to me like people over corporations. As above, I am not interested in swaying you. I merely state my own conclusion at this point in time. It is a conclusion open to change as time goes on. We are all likely to rethink and reconsider many aspects of this campaign before it is over.

sent down to flaming defeat by huge corporate coffers because the word could not get out against the "too radical" meme that opposition blanketed us with.

This meme can't hurt Dean because of his clearly fiscally responsible record.

This is a man who can deliver universal healthcare, scaled back deficits, a vital economy and increased civil rights -- all while restoring our Constitution, renewing our traditional world alliances and getting out of the never ending state of war that George Bush has mired us in.

The right would convince the middle that Kucinich was the radical of any putative DK vs. GWB battle. Even if, by some unlikely turn of events, Dennis were to gain the Presidency, he'd have no chance to successfully govern. Basically, it would take a miracle for him to even make the election close and another miracle for him to govern the nation as effectually as Jimmy Carter.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart for so often writing what I'm thinking far beter than I could.

For all the provocative, absolutely dynamite threads you start -- and argue through. Great work. Thanks for your kind words.

Eloriel

on not trying to win me over to Dean, because the post definitely failed on that count. Good cheerleading post for the faithful Deans though, that is obvious by the responses.

Oh lord, do not let them be happy, for the candidate they have chosen is not righteous.

Rather lord, let them see the light of truth that is in MY eyes, for my candidate is the one, and yet they fail to see.

:evilgrin:

Oh, and BTW Lord, don't forgive 'em their trespasses, cause they just piss me off so mightily!!!

Damn, that was fun.

Bye now, gotta date with some happiness!!!

:hi:

I will go tomorrow to the sites and read everything I have time for. You have convinced me to learn more about Dean. Understand please that I always liked him, Kucinich just fit better with me. I am thrilled with this movement. It cannot be anything but good for the democratic party. As I have said before, there is an astonishing amount of talent represented by all of these men and woman. Clark makes this election even more interesting. Who'da thunk it?

Edit for :kick:

call in to the Guy James Show and be on a positive note. Rather than bash dumbya I sang Dean's praises. :)

and do my Dean homework today.

Thanks for your passion and you analysis Eloriel - you've given me a lot to think about. I hope a lot of other people will be infected with your meme if we keep this kicked up over the weekend.

:kick:

Well, I'm quite the contrarian, so I'll just kick it up one more time

:kick:

From Governor Dean
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/
The most extraordinary moment for me during the sleepless summer tour, out of alot of extraordinary moments was in Seattle. I looked out over at least 10,000 people, a thick crowd all the way back to the buildings, and for the first time in a long time, I was nervous, not because of the speech, but because I realized that I had a huge responsibility, not just because we might win, but because you are all counting on me. As you know, one of the lines in my stump speech is that you have the power to change this country not me. That is true. This is a movement to permanently change America, so we will never have to go through what is happening to us now again.

I really appreciate all the great work you did to turn out crowds over the sleepless summer tour. And I appreciate your coming too, and all the money you have raised.

The tour was great. We learned alot, including that the team could put on a tour like that, with all the complicated staging and coordination.

We must have connected with 40,000 people on the tour. If we all keep it up, we will succeed.

Thanks for doing all that you do,

Howard Dean

Posted by Howard Dean at 01:40 PM