Will the world consider all Americans complicit-- a la Nazi Germany?

While heroes such as Dietrich Bonhoeffer or Mr. and Mrs. Oscar Schindler may escape the collective guilt construct we still foist upon the citizens of 1933-1945 Germany, I can't recall taking the time to discern the reactionary cultists from the undoubtedly greater numbers of "normal" denizens--who were simply trying to carry out their mundane affairs in a country entrenched in madness. Which leads to an unsettling question (or series of, anyway)...

When this country goes into Third Reich mode, will the world care whether some of us are liberal? Will "Don't blame me, I voted for Kerry" cut the mustard? Won't they wonder why so many of us (including myself), who saw the writing on the wall, did *not* choose to be war-tax resisters, or to fill the prisons in protest?

To put it another way: We've all seen the pictures of tortured innocents, and scorched children. But will it matter whether some of us are more indignant about it than others?

I hadn't thought of it that way. That's just what I need; more guilt. No really, I hadn't thought of my role (or our role) in this, except as shouted-down progressives. It's something to think about. (dammit)

Very few Americans have seriously opposed the Chimperor and his illegal and immoral activities.

More than one third of the electorate didn't bother to vote last time, so they are guilty by way of indifference. Nearly one third actively supported the criminal. Even a lot of supposed Democrats support much of the Bushco criminal activity.

The most vehement activity by the rest of us was merely a vote against Bush. That's not a lot of effort.

I believe the American people were given a pass for bush's first term because most believe the election was stolen but when bush got a second term, there is no longer a pass. The message sent was the US public, by and large, support the policies of the bush cabal or else they would have been on the streets by the millions ala Ukraine.

I'm much more understanding now that I'm seeing it happen here before my eyes.

However, I doubt that those in other countries will be so understanding of us. I'm sure we will all face blame -- and we deserve it.

in my household earlier this week, and we agreed that the rest of the world won't be very understanding. It's not as if it hadn't happened before and we didn't learn very much or didn't remember for very long.

with many dumb, fearful heads. Nationally we have no excuses such as Germany could posit(war defeat, depression, lost generation, weak lefty government under humiliating conditions, single national character regarding authority). The failure is so universal even the arguable majority who MIGHT dissent is shameful in scope.

That stupid, that inactive, that universally ill led and represented, that misinformed. Only being the seat of absolute military and economic power excuses the deflected mass judgment who never dreamed of curbing the beasts they think pull the chariot of prosperity and "freedom".

It is a sad reflection on the human race considering our opportunities and diversity and education and experience and responsibility.

Those who would inflate the myths to make the balloon bigger are NOT helping the situation. My labor goes to supporting the death and enslavement of the world for lies. My opinions rant into cyberspace. Hurrah.

Although, as I mentioned above, I don't hate the Good Germans of the 1930s anymore. I did hate them virulently for what they allowed to happen.

Now I see them everywhere. At work. At play. In the mirror when I shave.

Now I understand what they faced and how imposible it is to stop once Caeser crosses the Rubicon or the Reichstag burns.

But yes, I think the world SHOULD and WILL hold all of us accountable for what we have allowed to happen.

:cry:

...that one day, after this madness has passed, my children will be forced for their "reeducation" to look at videos or to walk through their own, American Auschwitz or Treblinka.

Mostly the leaders of both parties but we did little to stop them.

The candidates, all of the, visited our town and I asked all of them (except Gephardt since I was out of town) as early as April of 2003 when the troops were coming home since obviously no WMD had been found. Kerry said we'd better keep looking. Edwards resorted to a patriotic rhetorical flourish but did not specificaly answer my question. Dean gave an answer I liked and so did Kucinich. So I worked first for Kucinich and then for Dean. And we also marched in some big antiwar parades in bigger cities. And I wrote letters to the editor opposing the war before it even started since it was obvious what was in the works. In actuality some of us around here did everything we could except set ourselves on fire to oppose this war so I am not a very "good German" and, sorry, am not going to accept any guilt about this. I also opposed the Viet Nam War and did two years of menial hospital work as a conscientious objector. And kept some people from going over to Nam also. How long do I have to keep doing this? WHEN will we ever learn???

blame the German people collectively. Germany was defeated, the Nazi leaders were executed. Winners write the histories.

But, while the Iraqis may kick US forces out, America is not going to be occupied by a foreign power itself. President Bush will never stand before a war crimes tribunal, and the world will keep on doing business with America, as usual, just as they did with Saddam.

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an observation, not evaluating the situation morally. Winners do write the histories. This is beyond dispute. No, I was not saying that the Nazis would have been right if they had won. Of course they wouldn't.Only that the world would have found some way to do business with them.

Do you doubt this? The world did business with Stalin, with Mao. Men as evil as Hitler serving systems as evil as Nazism.

n/t

That is a rediculous comparison, our offenses are much closer to, say the british empire. So, we will look like the english did at the height of thier abuses.

Only then will it be ok to make such comparisons. Silly me! :eyes:

Those British, such fascists! Yes, that's an apt comarison. :eyes:

The question was about how we would be seen. And yes, killing 6 million jews does have an effect on your PR.

I have no problem and would be happy to compare nazism and the facist takeover of Germany and how it compares to modern conservatism and thier takeover of the government.

But on the issue of how we will be seen, the specifics of what we have actually done and what the Nazi's actually did are extremely saliant. The fact of the matter is we have not done what Germany did, we still might, but until we do comparing us to them IN THIS ASPECT ONLY is pointless. Our transgressions are on line with a long history of imperial transgressions by western nations, none of which gained a reputation comperable to Nazi Germany.

Not to mention that unlike then, the world is MUCH more connected today. People are much more likely today to see the seperation between the people and the governement. And because of the empires that came before us people are much more concious of how the people are ignorant of what their government is doing.

We are not yet to the point where this is an apt comparison on the topic of the American image.

"When this country goes into Third Reich mode..."

Obviously, the original poster was discussing some point in the futue, NOT now, NOT today. We're not there yet, though we're moving there quicker than I ever thought possible.

Comparisons to Nazi's are perfectly appropriate even today and will be more so in the future and the American people should be held responsible for the atrocities that are and will be committed in their names.

would we be seen the same way?

Thats a bit overspeculative but, yes and no. It would of course make us look extremely bad, but the world is so different now than it was after WW2, so I dont really know how similar it would be.

It might even turn out to be worse.

But the odds of us replicating Nazi Germany are pretty slim.

Who said anything about REPLICATING Nazi Germany? We're talking about COMPARISONS and behaving SIMILARLY. You always do this and it's such and obvious tactic. Comparisons are appropriate, especially when there is so much to compare.

My first post addressed the topic as if we were comparing ourselves and our behavior to Nazi Germany's behavior. In which case they arent even close, and thus would produce nothing similar as far as reaction.

You informed me that the question wasnt about comparing the two, the question was a hypothetical, it was about what would happen if the US went "third reich" which I would hope you know is a reference to Nazi Germany, thus it is a question of what would happen if the US followed in thier footsteps (replicated, as it where) what the Nazi's did. Not exactly of course. So I answered the question from that standpoint, what if we became comperable to the atrocities of the third reich.

So ive answered both questions.

Im unclear of why you critisized me first for comparing us to them and not using the hypothetical, and then critisized me for using a hypothetical and not comparing us to them.

We can compare this country to Nazi Germany NOW, because it seems we're on the same path, and in the future, when (if) we reach a level where our transgressions are akin to Nazi Germany's at it's height, and the American people will/can be held accountable. The American people can STILL be held accountable for the countries actions NOW, which are similar to a fledgling Nazi Germany AND in the future, when the atrocities are even worse and akin to Germany at it's worst. Not really a difficult concept to comprehend if you put your mind to it.

Your original criticism:

"No, nothing like nazi germany. That is a rediculous comparison, our offenses are much closer to, say the british empire. So, we will look like the english did at the height of thier abuses."

This original criticism of yours is saying the comparison is ridiculous because our offenses are NOT like Nazi Germany's (yet). Since the poster was discussing the future, when our offenses may very well be as bad as the Nazi's at their height, this criticism is invalid and I pointed it out. I ALSO made the additional point (though I did make it first) that EVEN NOW comparisons to Nazi's are STILL valid anyway, so your criticism is invalid on that level as well.

There was a miscommunication so calm down and stop attacking me for things I didnt say please. My first post addressed the comoparison of what we have actually done versus what they did and the reaction.

THAT IS ALL IT ADDRESSED

You can discuss the future, you can even discuss a future in which we parallel the Nazi's, that just isnt what I was discussing. And the second time I was discussing a history where we paralleled the Nazi's ONLY.

You cant just randomly pick the context you read my posts in.

that's not an attack.

Yes, you're first post addressed what we (the US) HAVE done. The poster was discussing the future though and the hypothetical that when/if we go 3rd Reich on the world. It's not me discussing the future, it's the original poster. I criticized your post on TWO levels though.

Level 1: in context of the original post, which was a hypothetical about the future and since your post was discussing our offenses that have already happened, it was irrelevant to the original post.

Level 2: even on it's own merit, your original post misses the point that we certainly CAN compare the US to Nazi fascists even now, because there are many similiarities.

I wasn't randomly picking anything. I was specifically criticizing your post on two levels, and pointed out that it was invalid on both of them, IMO.

Whether you like the comparison or not, that IS how much of the world is seeing us.

They see us as similar, and fear we will grow to be worse, like Nazi Germany.

They dont view us like they viewed the Nazi's because we havent yet offended people to the same level they did. They are just worried that we will.

"just worried" is not comforting.

Look Im just saying that we cant predict the future and as of right now we havent earned an image like nazi germany in all its actions. Yes we are reminding people of them every day, and yes our government is not legitimate or stable and the world should be doing everything they can to help, we just havent offended people as much as the nazi's did yet.

If not, how do you reach your conclusion about the offense your *gubmint has caused in YOUR name? Just asking.

Don't be so sure the comparisons are NOT being made to Nazi Germany already. Nazi Germany didn't start with the death camps, the concentration camps, eerily similar to Abu Graib and Gitmo, were the beginnings. The ovens came later.

They see the damage that Israel is doing to the occupied territories -- with US approval. In third world countries the destruction of homes and their contents has a huge impact. Even small modest homes in third world countries represent a huge investment. And for Israelis to destroy homes -- registers with third world populations as being cruel and inhumane. Large parts of Jenin were destroyed by Israeli bulldozers, and bombing. Palestinians are rounded up and held in jails and tortured -- in a manner not unlike what is being done by the US in Iraq. And people see what has happened to Fallujah -- the near total destruction of this city and the slaughter of males of military age as well as women and children who remained in the city or were unable to escape.

The current real danger for US travelers overseas is the perceived close ties between the US and Israel -- even though Israel will do what ever it takes to survive and that means forging alliances with China -- the up and coming super power or supreme world power. Israel and the US walk different paths and at times both paths converge -- but when the US Navy ship Liberty was sunk -- that was an act of war -- and Israel got a pass. I'd say at moment -- the U.S. and Israel were NOT walking the same path. However, the world outside of the US doesn't see the US and Israel is having separate agendas.

What the US has done in Iraq will taint all Americans -- even though we did not vote for bush. People in the Caribbean region also will remember the bush Haiti coup and the Venezuela coup -- and Americans did get a pass for the the first 4 year reign of bush -- we are not getting a pass now.

Travel overseas and expect to be treated like dirty ugly Americans -- as individuals get to know your politics their perception of you alone will change. There is a definite change in the mood -- some tourist areas will put on a mask of tolerance -- just like they did to the Germans (the previous culture with political lepers).

I've posted this before -- but the International press seems to have a black out on reporting the US election fraud. When I explain to non Americans that the vote was hacked (manipulated, twisted etc) in 2004 JUST like what happened in Florida -- no one has heard this news from the International media. NO ONE. Unless the individual has family in the US -- have learned via word of mouth from family members about the election fraud. One women told me that I sounded just like her sister up in the states (and a US citizen).

As bushie becomes more megalomaniacal, paranoid and delusional -- we who travel overseas will become a walking target -- the attacks will be verbal (already happening) and the attacks could become physical. People are PISSED OFF at bush. You can hear it in the music -- the local music, you can hear it in the local poetry readings and in the locally produced plays. The world is PISSED AT BUSH and the idiot who voted for him. In fact there was a poetry reading -- and the locals made many cutting references to bush -- some conservative Americans got up and left the performance. Most Americans are unaware of the local performing arts throughout the world -- and these artist use politics for inspiration.

We need a universal symbol for -- I DID NOT VOTE FOR THAT MOTHER F***** IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

and if you're a *bot you may well be shunned. The picture you paint is a bit extreme imo. I can't imagine any well-informed, empathetic, APOLOGETIC American being treated badly. The voting fraud was well covered in Europe but most cannot figure out why or HOW the *dauphin even got 5%. Thus the anger.

There was a pre-"final solution" period, you know.

No way out of it. We're all guilty. It sucks, but that's just the way it is.

When asked if there was a parallel today to the Germans back then watching entire families of their neighbors being loaded on trains and doing nothing but watch them going to their deaths, he replied that there was. He said today watching people die because they can't get health care or medicine that is available around the corner because of our health care system is no different than watching those people go to the death camps to die back then.

Ok ok.... Yes the surge of nationalism in this country is plaster in the form of flags and yellow ribbons on our cars.... it has not reached the height of what the Nazi's did but has become dangerous nontheless.

Like the Republicans did, we need to stop fighting each other and join together and take collective action. No, we will not stoop to their level of spreading, fear hate and misinformation, because:
We are the party of the people and for the people our party platform is solid and it is good. We need to accentuate it, we need to take it on a grassroots level and we need to stop talking in terms dictated by Republicans to disguise their true meanings....

for example: the use fo the word insurgents.... according to the dictionary it means:
1. Rising in revolt against established authority, especially a government.
2. Rebelling against the leadership of a political party.

On number 1: Um there is no established authority there, THAT was Saddam.... We are an occupying force. The term we need to use is guerrilla: A member of an irregular, usually indigenous military or paramilitary unit operating in small bands in occupied territory to harass and undermine the enemy, as by surprise raids.

ON Number 2: THAT WHAT WE SHOULD BE! rebels against leadership of the bastard republican party...

Bleib ruhig, Du! The disgust toward Americans is general after the election, not individual. "How CAN so many be so FICKEN STUPID?" is the question of the day. What that means in practice is that people are MUCH MORE SENSITIVE to political leanings. No one is being attacked in the streets but if someone loudly displays a *bot arrogance, he will simply be shunned, shown the door, or verbally beat to a pulp. And rightfully so.

I hope not . I'm am purposefully a walking talking
driving protest . My Home is a protest .

Not one individual in my presense can mistake
me for anything other than what I am , and I
like it .

I am willing to at every moment debate and stand
in Defense of The United States Constitution and
The Rule of Law .

Are you in jail? Did you pay ANY taxes today? Did you buy gas, cigarettes, any alcohol (direct Federal excise)? Did you work and therefore pay withholding and SS taxes (let's not kid ourselves about where THAT money goes)?

I did. And I'm not condemning YOU. My house is a protest as well, and I've spent 30+ YEARS in political activism.

It's not happening, and I can't support it and I can't go to jail. So I have to leave.

I don't doubt your sincerity one iota. It's just that every second of every day every one of us who isn't in jail is supporting the Fascists.

I used to think that if they weren't in jail or dead, they were complicit because they didn't do enough.

Vote with your feet. LEAVE. That's what I'm doing.

in the Viet Nam War era did go up to Canada. And are still there of course. I went up to visit them in 1969 and we had some good discussions but in the end I decided I would be more effective organizing antiwar activities in the US and participating in them. And the protests did become more and more effective especially when the VVAW participated. And of course we campaigned against Nixon in 1972. In my experience the Nixon government WANTED us in jail and off the streets. We were too clever to oblige them. This does not mean going to prison is not an effective tactic of protest. My point is that being locked up can often hinder organizing collective action for those of us who are not high profile like Dr. King or Gandhi. In the same spirit the SDS leadership told those of us very active in local groups NOT to go to Chicago in 1968 and run the risk of being busted but to stay on the campuses and change student opinion. And so we did and so we had an effect in "raising consciousness." There is no quick fix solution to halting imperialist wars but only organize, organize, counter-propagandize and be available for collective actions. I understand and respect your anguish and anger.

The only thing that kept me out of 'Nam was a high draft number.

Don't get me wrong here, but we've been protesting for almost 40 years now, and all we do is keep paying taxes to these people or some variant. I'm enough of a Buddhist to believe that if I have any role in supporting this madness, then I am as culpable as the worst of them.

I have a family, I can't go to jail, these are no longer legitimate excuses. I'm tired and I can't fight these people anymore. I understand your post better than you think, but frankly, I've run out of gas.

And kept trying to draft me and almost got me when I was not taking enough grad school classes. A draft counselor (remember those fine people?) told me to apply as a CO and I was granted CO status. I think I got it since I spent a year at a seminary not because of anything I said. I told them out and out that I was an anarchist as well as a pacifist,i.e. basing my antiwar morality on political as opposed to religious principles. Not having religious beliefs does not make me any the less socially conscious but does keep me from guilt if what I do to amend things doesn't work out. I can instead realize I did the best I possibly could under the circumstances. And will live to fight another day. Anyway I am too old to uproot so I must take on the imperialists here and try to defang them.

...It's one of the biggest reasons WHY I'm moving my family to Canada; I can't support these "people" and their atrocities anymore.

Every time I pay sales tax, or even spend a minute earning my salary, I'm buying "Bullets for Bush." I can't do it anymore.

And as to the Nazi comparison, like someone wrote the other day (paraphrasing W. C. Fields): It isn't whether or not you're a whore, it's just about price now.

Hubby was prescient enough to marry a chick with Canadian citizenship ;)

Whereabouts are you heading to? I'm from Kamloops, BC originally, but we're heading to Winnipeg. :)

One more year just one more year I can do it hang in there just one more year...

10 km north of Goderich, 1km from the lake, and 50 km from Stratford, my late Dad's home town. Dad lost his citizenship when he Naturalized US in 1951, just before I was born.

Damn.

We have to go through the red tape, but they'll have to kick us out: The house foundation goes in the ground Mid March, the well is already there, and the house is modular so it's going to be on the foundation by April 1. Stay in touch.

My parents were from Kenora.

I can't wait to get back. It's going to be such a shock tho, not having to watch what you say in public, and the real actual news media! (And sausage rolls, HP sauce, bitters etc :D )

Hey guys... I am also a Brasilian citizen... I know what they think, I have had MANY international friends in college and I know from personal experience taht they hate this country too.

I don't blame them...

We should stop feeling guilty, and DO SOMETHING COLLECTIVELY like you say the Germans should have done....

"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation. It will
preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life." : Adolph Hitler, My New World Order, Proclamation to the German Nation at
Berlin, February 1, 1933

=

We are fighting to vindicate the principle that small nationalities are not to be crushed in defiance of international good faith at the arbitrary will of a strong and overmastering Power. : Author: Rt. Hon. Herbert Henry Asquith - Source: Statement, to House of Commons, Declaration of War with Germany, Aug. 4, 1914

=

Only the winners decide what were war crimes. : Author: Gary Wills

===

I think they know there is heated debate within the country, and that many people are not represented by the goverment.

since the rest of the world was/is aware of the plight of minorities in the United States, disenfranchisement and the march for Civil Rights and equality, etc.

BUT in light of people like Condi and Colin being in visible positions of power internationally in recent years, that may not be the case anymore.

And besides....the powers that be here in the US may decide to "take care of" said minorities within our borders, in a similar scenario....

On a trip to Mexico recently, a man approached me and said, "Ah, you Bush people. You are too aggressive."

I told him that not all people from my country were "Bush people," even as I acknowledged that Bush supporters were too aggressive.

The easy track for him was to imagine all U.S. voters as Bush voters. Not so, but that's the danger.

John Kerry has his detractors perhaps, but goddamit, give me John Kerry and John Edwards in the White House instead of these bloodthirsty assholes any day of the week.

Hopefully someone somewhere in a position of power knows just how complicit the Bush Crime Family was in the murders of 1000s of people in Sept. 01.

Hell, if that truth comes out, the rest of the world may consider us the victims of the "sacrifice" that the neo-cons and republicans deemed necessary to take ove the world.

Also, just a quibble; You ask: When this country goes into Third Reich mode,???

We are already in Third Reich mode. Our furher has been installed and the Reichstag has burned.

because we are.

we could avoid this oversight

or complicit by their silence and willingness to work with those monsters.

as
at http://www.apologiesaccepted.com/gallery_00001.html suggest.

My fear of traveling abroad is the illeducated population that uses the same sort of generalizing as the Republicans in this country. It's easy to fill the uninformed mind with propaganda, and they are the most dangerous.

The Necessity for Enlightened Thinking


By Norman D. Livergood

We who live in the post-World War II period possess an immensely valuable symbol, even if we don't understand it or use it effectively: the example of Nazi Germany.

We've been conditioned to see Germany under Hitler as an unquestionably horrible example of dictatorial tyranny and inhuman barbarity--and to see our present American culture as completely opposite to that of Nazi Germany. And we like to think that if a tyranny such as that in Germany under the Nazi regime were present and growing in America we'd unquestionably be able to see it.

So it's a shock when we realize: most people living in Nazi Germany didn't see the tyranny! They thought it was the best time of their lives!



How could Germans living under Hitler's National Socialism not have seen what it was? How did their lack of social and personal awareness make them blind to their reality?

How could Americans now possibly be living under a creeping dictatorship and not know it? And how could we not only not see a police state condition but actually think we're living in complete freedom?

Because most of us don't WANT to know what's going on. We've lost the ability to think critically about political, economic, and social dangers confronting us.

If we have a job--as most people did in Nazi Germany--if the political-economic system seems stable--as it does in America--then that's all we want to know.

more...

http://www.hermes-press.com/etch1.htm