Some of these morning’s posts are why we are loosing ground.

Keep in mind, that the people here at DU are birds of a feather. We might not entirely agree with everyone on everything, but we would still support each other. But MANY of these subjects are things that are wholly unacceptable to more than enough people to loose elections.

Someone is actually suggesting that we boycott Opra and The Tonight Show because they are viewed as shills.

Can you imagine if Dean actually came out and said he was boycotting Opra and the Tonight Show: two of the longest running and most popular shows in America? Come on FOLKS!

We here agree to disagree on some issues, but still pledge to vote together as Dems. The rest of the nation does NOT. Tripling a car tax, issuing licenses, and a myriad of other single issues are deal breakers for a lot of people.

I know many of you think that people are asleep and we just need to inform them or wake them up. But we have to realize that most people aren’t asleep, they are awake and just honestly and really don’t care as long as they are relatively comfortable. They are wide-eyed and clear in their stance of moderation through religious beliefs, morals, and rearing and forms of logic that almost never change akin to sexual desire. Its just the way they are. And we all sound like nuts to most of them. All of the people that take small vacations to Disney, visit the grand canyon and have HBO, HMO’s and Nintendo really are somewhat complacent in what they have and don’t care to make drastic changes. They will however vote based on single issues and decide an election.

In sum, it might be viewed as a main stream political discussion to talk about how Bush knew 9/11 was going to happen and how he had reasons to let it go on here and with out friends. But outside of our tent is is not. To most people we just sound like a bunch of whack-a-loons. This is not going to change no matter how much you harp on it. And from their view that actually makes sense. Focus on the things that we can win. Please.

Not California!!!!

I can't believe the way Leno is propping up Schwarzenegger and dissing Bustamante.

If Leno wants to stump for his candidate that's fine. I think his candidate is totally unqualified and was elected because he was famous. To me that makes Leno a public whack-a-loon who is using his popularity to promote what I view as obscene political goals.

It takes no focus whatsoever to turn off the TV.

She should be ashamed. Leno? FUCK LENO!

has been doing a good job of lampooning Bush. No need for any boycott. At 11:30 PM switch to Dave!

he's a media whore...he goes whichever way the wind blows just like the rest of them

Just turn the television OFF...thats the best advice

whether we should be allowed 3 hots and a cot
or can one of the meals be coldcuts
and white bread.

The 40 year anniversary of the 1st
neocon coup is coming up.
I know these people.
Show weakness, back off and
they come at you w/ death in
their eyes.

Believe me, the Freeps would make our signs and pay our parade fees if we actualy wanted to do this.

Rush is toast. The Media is embedded
w/ Corporations/Fascists. So What?
Look, we have become an Empire.
We are now playing by Machiavellian rules.
Whereever you are, prepare to defend yourself
and loved ones. I'm not talking guns
here. I'm talking truth over lies.
Unless the Dems show more than SOS
and start calling the Repubs busted flush
Ahnuld is the rule not the exception
It's all about power and greed.

Believe it or not, our friends are the CIA.
Whoever outed Plame should be
finding out where Osama
Saddam and the Anthrax
man are hiding, because alot
of people besides the FBI are looking for him.

They want his head on a pike outside
the WH. And they're not going to stop until
they get it.

Full speed ahead!!

Attack! Attack!! Don't hold back. The only thing to fear is fear itself!

The real whackos are the ones leading the country. And they just love for folks to say, "Oh, be careful". They love that some are willing to believe their lies and misinformation. It makes it so much easier for them.

If you dont want to watch, fine. If you want to tell your firends not to watch, fine. If you actualy bag on a dem candidate, dont support them for staying clear of this and other similar stances, or actualy get FOX news to air a rally that says Dems hate Opra and The Tonight Show during a protest, well your just going to get our candidate to denounce our part of the tent.

to come out against a popular TV show. Come off it--Dean was just on Leno last week. And if there are enough stupid Dems to say they 'hate Opra' then we deserve what we get.

I don't hate Opra or Leno. But since Leno has made his allegiances clear on and off the show I'm sure as hell not going to support him or help line his pockets for promoting large corporate interests.

The far-left just doesn't seem to understand what matters to mainstream Americans. And they also waste alot of time on silly issues when there are things people would listen to if they would only focus on them. The Hitler comments were a prime example, especially since there was only one source and it was almost 30 years ago. It makes Democrats sound like lunatics. Timing is everything and I wish more of the left would understand that and use a little self-editing.

"...and it was almost 30 years ago."

Now tell me again how Whitewater (a failed land deal that was about 25 years old) became a huge boondoggle of American tax payer's billions of dollars under independent counsel and lasted years, in order to discover a sexual affair.

You think it is irrelevant that someone answered the question "Who are your heroes?" with the name Adolf Hitler? I don't care when he said it, that man's name should never have come up under the question of heroes unless one is a true believer in White Supremacy and the decimation of Jews.

During the Clinton years, the "craziest" anti-Liberal, anti-Government conspiracy theories were pushed all over the globe, and yet Bush won.

So why do the Dems keep losing? Is it because they haven't gone far enough to the right? Is it because they haven't kept silent enough about the right wing (read corporate) conspiracy to turn the US into a fascist state?

Why?

What would you have them do? More of the same?

There was all this positive talk about how the Dems were going to take back Congress, while people like Cynthia McKinney were abused for spinning wild conspiracy theories, and that no one would vote for a person who espoused such "looney" ideas.

Then the election came and went, and suddenly there was a whole raft of posts from people saying "we have to forget the conspiracy theories and focus on the issues" just like the post that started this thread.

Of course, they forget that this is the SAME tactic that lost them the election. You'd think they WANT the Dems to lose, the way they keep pushing for the SAME tactics to be used again.

I believe that everything Kimble said is true except for one thing: focusing on the issues is the OPPOSITE of what is needed. Most people LOVE a scandal, they don't care about politics, they want JUICE.

The Republicans figured this out, and basically their WHOLE PLATFORM is about delivering the JUICE. They want to take your guns! They want to murder little defenceless babies! They want to steal your hard earned money and give it to bludgers and minorities! And they win. You just can't argue against such innuendo. It doesn't matter if it is false, what matters is that the respected leaders say it's true.

So while the Dem's leaders refuse to get down in the gutter, then they will lose. They have to show that the Republicans are no better than the Nazis. They have to show that the Republicans want to steal your hard earned money and put it in their own pockets. They have to show that the Republicans are murderers and thieves, and that voting for them is like voting to be robbed or killed.

And MOST IMPORTANTLY they have to appear DIFFERENT enough that they can't be tainted with the same brush. It is no good pointing out that Enron is a thief when Enron was given as much help by the Clinton admin as it was by the Bush admin. You can't say that labour deserves to be treated better, while supporting the globalisation that TAKES AWAY JOBS and gives them to nations that treat workers FAR WORSE.

DUers LOVE to point to Republican hypocrisy, but the mainstream Dems can also be pointed to as hypocrites. What good is arguing against Iraq, if you supported Kosovo?

That is why I like Kucinich. He argued against both once he knew what was really going on (although I believe he has still fallen for some of the biggest lies in the case of Kosovo). The point is, from the outside I can honestly say there is very little difference between the mainstream Democrats and the mainstream Republicans.

Often times it appears that all they are doing is arguing over what colour the bombs should be.

On Bill didn’t work. The ones on Gore didn’t work. All they do is energize an already dedicated base. The people we need to convince didn’t listen to any of it and you know that. BTW, I said debate issues, not be silent. Less you think not protesting Opra is leaving a real issue off the table.

The attacks worked: Bill got impeached, Gore got robbed and America went "Ho, hum".

Our only recourse is to throw the shit back at 'em and hope to hell some of it sticks. Anyone and everyone who supports the corruption of America needs to hear from us. Anyone and everyone. Ophra or Leno - they are all enemies if they allow these crooks any quarter.

We disagree, we will still vote dem, but if you really think all those people that went "Ho Hum" as you put it are going to respond to a Leno/Opra boycott, well, your kidding yourself. Lots of what you throw is going to get on ya friend.

Is going to get on me? That is the least of my worries. If a campaign to point out how these shills allowed and enabled the crooks to get a leg up on us turns one person towards the truth, then it will have been worth it.

There being no time left to be careful, and having nothing to lose, the attack must be pushed forward on all fronts. To even suggest that any measure taken by us is somehow backward shows a lack of understanding of what we face. I would suggest, dear Kimble, that you find an attack angle of your own and turn your efforts to that front and leave others to their own desires. ATTACK!!

:hi:

I know I'm not alone. The sheeple are awakening only because the facts are coming out by virtue of our standing up for what we know as the Truth.

The reason DU is so important is that it is a re-inforcement mechanism to all of us in that DU brings us together in solidarity against the usrpers of our American rights. Allowing threads such as this one to go forward without an argument cuts at the grassroots of getting the facts out. Let Freedom Ring! Do not allow any naysayer to hold you back.

A T T A C K !

How else do you think Bush and the right wing in general gets away with blaming everything on Clinton?

Because in the public mind, Clinton was crooked. Maybe not to everyone, but to enough that those of us who don't agree are actually seen as being crooked too.

Hell, Schwarzenegger was defended by using Clinton as an EXAMPLE! Arnie comes out and says "I'm Sorry", and many say "At least he told the truth!"

They worked all right, and they are STILL working. It's been three years since Clinton got out of office, and he is still be used as a battering ram against the Dems, and focusing on the issues just lets them get away with it and also allows them to say "See? We are better than them!" because the Dems refuse to "stoop" to their level.

Never mind the fact that Bush is FAR WORSE than Clinton ever was. Never mind that Arnie is far worse than Clinton ever was. Clinton was better in reality, but not in the artificial reality that the Republicans created. In their reality Clinton was one step above the anti-Christ, if not the actual anti-Christ, and thus any Republican, no matter how bad, looks good against him. All because the Dems refused to get down in the gutter to fight it out. All they did is concede the battle ground to the Republicans, and they have lost ever since.

Money talks, and Bullshit walks... Republicans in office are living proof.

We don't have the money to fight them.

We are also idealogues in many ways, and Republicans (like it or not) pretty much stick together AKA "fall in line." Democrats don't. We have many here who are Kucinich or bust, Dean or bust...

The end result of these things: Bush and co. in office. And, those that bitch the loudest about Dems not fighting, are the least likely stand by the party...

Let's hope Arnie brings some division to the Republicans as well.

Every single person that I have given information learned here at DU to has been awakened. So don't tell me they are all informed and awake.

Why are you here?

Maybe all the newly awakend people will discover a debate for removing the ten comandments from the supreem court buiilding to win the presidency. Lord knows we have the law and facts on our side with the case from the south. Maybe we can launch a camapign to tax church properties or disolve the Electoral College and goto a straight popular vote.

All issues that many of us agree with that can place us six feet under.

to be reading a site like DU. Would you mind telling me why we should sanitize the discourse on this site for the consumption of people who aren't even reading it?

I never said here, matter'a fact I said here is good, talks with friends are good etc. I did say that all this energy promo-ing a boycott was not good. I did say dont bash a dem cadidate who doesnt speak out to this or..nm, forget it.

See ya guys later again

And there were two spelling mistakes in your headline. "These" and "loosing." Not to be a spelling cop or anything...but...

Peace

And I would venture to say that most rational people who come to this site probably tone done their opinions somewhat when they are talking to less-politically interested colleagues. So again...what are you worried about?