If you like Kucinich but don't think he can win try this.

try telling some regular people what kucinich stands for, you could be in for a real awakening. many of kucinich's positions transcend the traditional left/right mold. Take trade for instance, his anti-nafta/wto stance is one that's shared by pat buchanan, now buchanan is a nut-ball on other issues, but it's the trade issues that many republicans like about him and it's here that we could win some votes. There's also the issue of Pentagon waste, believe it or not, there's a lot of people aware of the Pentagon's 'lost' $1 trillion dollars, all you have to do is point out that Kucinich isn't against the military but against these defense contractors bilking the tax payers of billions and you've won a friend.

I think a lot of people just get freaked out by DK because he's saying things that most politicians wouldn't dare to say, because they're more worried about winning than doing what's right. Not that winning isn't important, but seriously what kind of person should be running our country, one that only cares about winning power or one that cares about doing the right thing and making people's lives better?

And once again I challenge you, not to go out and give your money and time to Kucinich immeadeatly, but if you truly like Kucinich but are worried about his how he'd play out in the general. Study up on his issues and ideas and go out and talk to people about those ideas, you'll find that more support them than you'd think. I was much the same way, until I talked to my Rush listening, Bush loving grandfather about him. At first he just dismissed him as another 'ultra-liberal', but when I got into the details, especially trade, I won him over. His exact words were, "you've become so liberal that I think you've come around the other side and become conservative, this Kucinich guy sounds like someone I could support.' I've had the same conversation with other 'right-leaning' people and had very similar outcomes, Kucinich isn't as far out of the mainstream as many of you think.

It's the truth, Kucinich could win, not because he blindly follows ideology, as many mistakenly say about him, but because he doesn't. He uses common sense and creates common sense solutions to many problems, and the people who see that agree with it. Why else do you think that Kucinich gets ZERO coverage of his ideas in the mainstream press? Of course they cover him, but it's always limited to a joke about him or how he was there, but NEVER about what he thinks. It's because if regualar people actually KNEW WHAT HE WAS ABOUT they would support him.

expresses exactly how I feel about Kucinich. That's why I'm teetering between Kucinich and Dean. Kucinich IS the ideal candidate of the Democratic Party.

However, I'm kind of different on the trade thing. I'd rather have labor and environmental standards put into it. But whatever.

You are right. He is saying pretty much all of the right things.

One of my main concerns about Kucinich was that he would be another McGovern. That's really the main reason why I didn't support him. But after looking at the rest of the pack, do they really represent my views? I mean, nobody in the Democratic Party is standing up for the Palestinians. The same could be said for the Republican party. Who's supporting the disenfranchised?

It's just really hard for me. I think something is going to happen within these next few years, but I don't know. It's like everything that's been building up to this decade (cultural wars, Right Wingers, War Protests) is going to come to a crossroads soon. And I think Kucinich is going to play a big role in it.

I'm still thinking about Kucinich though. He's a really great guy I must say. He also has a record to back up his platform and I think that's what is reassuring to me.

That's why I suggest you speak with some people. I felt much as you do several months ago. It was through talking with regular people (you know the kind that don't really pay attention to politics) that I became convinced that Kucinich can win, but only if he's able to get his message out. That's when I decided to send him money and to volunteer the small amount of time I have for him.

I agree with you. It's almost a taboo in American politics, isn't it? In any case, here's one view that isn't as bad as some of the others:



Howard Dean is committed to achieving a negotiated, comprehensive, and just peace between Palestinians and Israelis and remains optimistic about the chances for peace. The greatest asset in that effort is that majorities of both Palestinians and Israelis accept a two-state solution which would guarantee security, sovereignty, and dignity.

Recent developments in the region have created a new sense of opportunity. Any steps that lead away from violence and toward peace need to be encouraged and assisted. Continuing this progress will require the full engagement of the United States at the highest level. U.S. disengagement from the process during much of the Bush Administration has been unacceptable. No other country but the United States has the credibility necessary to facilitate negotiations and to mediate between the parties. Yet, in the end, only the Palestinians and the Israelis themselves can make and keep the peace and work out the specifics of a lasting agreement. Peace cannot be imposed by outside parties.

The basic framework for peace between the Israelis and Palestinians is a two state solution -- a Jewish state of Israel living side by side in peace and security with an independent, demilitarized Palestinian state. The best approach to achieving lasting peace is a comprehensive one, providing for fully normalized relations, peace, and security as part of an overall negotiated settlement between Israel and the Arab states.

To get there, the Palestinian Authority will have to fight terrorism and violence on a consistent basis to create the conditions necessary for a viable peace process. The Israeli government will have to work to improve the living conditions of the Palestinian people and ultimately will have to remove a number of existing settlements. These issues and others will all be elements of a final agreement negotiated by the parties.

Through it all, the United States will maintain its historic special relationship with the state of Israel, providing a guarantee of its long-term defense and security. And the United States will have to take responsibility with its international partners for helping the Palestinians establish a middle-class democratic society in which women fully participate in economic and political decision-making. The international community must support these economic reconstruction efforts which are essential to the long-term success of any agreement between the parties.

Gov. Howard Dean
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_policy_foreign_mideast

whatever you think, or he says, you shouldnt need a fortune teller to
tell you the future there. Theres a fine line between optimism and gullibility.

He wrote the Tikkun Peace Proposal which calls for the establishment of a Palestinian state including all the areas previously promised to them. He refused to take a side on legislation favoring Israel over the Palestinians, and instead voted "present", delivering a floor speech that made me proud to support him.

For the record, his position on the I/P dispute and the Tikkun Peace Proposal are two very big reasons I do support him. After reading Tikkun, I was more impressed than ever.

is going to happen. We as American citizens have one last chance to get this right and not fall for the pretty wrapping paper or the most presentable/electable wrapping paper.

We are on the edge of a precipice as human beings. The decision about surviving or not is totally within our hands...our choices. We will either go into a black hole or we will emerge into a sustainable future with all beings on this planet. Once this decision is made, I really don't feel that we will get another chance to repair all the damage we've done. Even now, it will be a LONG, tough road to repair all the damage that has been done.

New Zealand and a few other places are ahead of the pack in sustainability. South Americans are even ahead of the rest of the world here and moving on up fast! They see that it is the little people and the little things that will make a difference. Controlling it from the community up to the top not vice versa.

IMO this is why this admin is fighting the South Americans so hard is to keep this vision out of the mainstream. If everyone sees that it works and how happy the people are then there will be no more hope for the corporations of this world! The lie will fall flat on its face!

Kucinich has a heart and TRULY cares about all living things. That is why I trust him to do the right thing.

Good luck to all of you battling with your decision of who to support! May you truly see past all the hype and empty promises to the heart of the matter...to what is truly at stake beyond the political arenas!

:hug:

Deeper, growing support for Kucinich would help re-calibrate the what it means to be a Democrat and also would influence the discussion of the general public, who have been brainwashed into dismissing liberal ideas out-of-hand.

When I say I support Kucinich, and people ask why, I can give them reasons which are ISSUES, not just fluff or feelings. Now, when they turn around and tell me they support Joe Q. Smith, there's some desire to frame it as an issues discussion so as not to look shallow and uninformed. Voila! The issues get discussed.

But he does have a major media problem -- no corporate underwriters. I sometimes think I should be canvassing the neighborhood on his behalf, door-to-door is the only hope of circumventing the media problem, but I haven't done it yet.

"not fall for the pretty wrapping paper or the most presentable/electable wrapping paper." -- well said.

they're really not as "radical" as most people think they are.

Dennis is for getting out of NAFTA because, according to the WTO rules, it CANNOT be revised to include better provisions for workers and/or the environment.

The same goes for the WTO. It is deliberately set up to give multinational corporations power over national governments. It is one of the most undemocratic bodies in existance today, and it should be replaced with something better.

All Dennis is saying is that we should scrap these organizations and go back to the bilateral trade agreements that we had before NAFTA and WTO. KUCINICH IS NOT A TRADE 'ISOLATIONIST'. Quite the contrary, he believes that trade should be fair for everyone, not just the rich.

IMHO, this is the only way to get out of the spot we're in. You can't really "fix" NAFTA or the WTO. It's like putting lipstick on a pig.

I've found that if you mention his policies without mentioning his name or the upcoming election, even my republican neighbors agree with them. Then mention his name, and they can't figure out why they've never heard of him.

The only obstacle to his election, IMO, is the lack of press.

I've donated to his campaign and shook the man's hand but, in this age of "cult-of-personality" media, Congressman Kucinich comes up a wee bit short(no pun intended) in the "hot" catagory.

I was talking with a group of Kucinich supporters last Monday night and the one thing he lacks, we all agreed on, is charisma though he is a very effective stump speaker.

I think Kucinich and his supporters will best serve as the conscience of the Party. I know many of his positions, universal health care for example, are actually embrassed by a majority of Americans.

Therefore, even if he does not get the ultimate nomination those of us who back Congressman Kucinich should work to bring the ideals we hold in common into the mainstream.

I think Kucinich and his supporters will best serve as the conscience of the Party.

I vote my conscience.

This is teh basic the platform of DK. Oh if only all of the Democratic candidates had a platform that were are clear and straightforward.

http://kucinich.us/issues/issue_10key.htm


Dennis Kucinich: The Progressive Vision



It's time for America to resume its glorious journey. Time to reject shrinking jobs and wages, disappearing savings and rights. Time to reject the detour towards fear and greed. Time to look out upon the world for friends, not enemies. Time to counter the control of corporations over our politics, our economy, our resources, and mass media. Time for those who have much to help those who have little by maintaining a progressive tax structure. Time to tell the world that we wish to be their partner in peace, not their leader in war. Most of all, it is time for America to again be the land where dreams come true because the government is on the side of its people.

Unfortunately, America now leads the world in categories we should not be proud of. America is now the world’s leading jailer with an incarceration rate higher than China. We lead the industrialized world in poverty and in the growing gap between rich and poor. And we are the only industrial nation not to provide national health care.

This is what a Kucinich administration would work to deliver for America:

<1> Universal Health Care with a Single Payer Plan
Over 40 million Americans have no health care and 30 million more have only minimal coverage. Those with coverage often pay exorbitant amounts. The current profit-driven system, dominated by private insurance firms and their bureaucracies, has failed.

A Kucinich administration would establish streamlined national health insurance, Enhanced Medicare for All. It would be publicly-financed health care, privately delivered. It would provide affordable prescription drugs, thanks to bulk purchasing. The General Accounting Office of Congress has concluded:

"If the U.S. were to shift to a system of universal coverage and a single payer, as in Canada, the savings in administrative costs would be more than enough to offset the cost."

<2> Full Social Security Benefits at Age 65
Social security is the basic covenant our society has with workers who have built our economy. At a time when CEOs earn 240 times the pay of the average worker, it is unconscionable not to return full retirement benefits to age 65.

A Kucinich administration would make that possible through a progressive tax structure and reordered national priorities. Social Security must not be privatized. Retirement years cannot be dependent on the rise and fall of the stock market.

<3> Withdrawal from NAFTA and WTO
The global trade regime of NAFTA and WTO has enriched multinational corporations. But for workers, family farmers, and the environment, it has meant a global race to the bottom. Companies leave the U.S. in search of low wages, low commodity prices, anti-union climates, and lax environmental laws. NAFTA has been used to whipsaw workers at the negotiation table, forcing wages and benefit concessions under threat of moving jobs overseas. Trade treaties must be conditioned on workers’ rights, human rights, and environmental principles.

Among the first actions of a Kucinich Administration will be withdrawal from NAFTA and the WTO—to be replaced by fair trade agreements.

<4> Repeal of the "Patriot Act"
The "Patriot Act" is not what American patriots have fought and died for. To allow our Bill of Rights to be nullified without judicial supervision invites tyranny. The Attorney General has been handed unfettered power to wiretap, search, jail, and invade our most sacred right to privacy. The government must not be allowed, without probable cause or warrant, to snoop on our communications, medical records, library records, and student records.

<5> Right-to-Choose, Privacy, and Civil Rights
In a Kucinich administration, a woman’s right-to-choose will be protected as essential to personal privacy and gender equality. Only those who agree to uphold Roe v. Wade will be nominated for the Supreme Court. Civil rights (and voting rights) enforcement will be intensified. Lesbians and gays will be afforded complete equality throughout society. Affirmative action will be maintained as a tool for racial and gender equality. Drug policy will emphasize treatment over criminalization, and not a rampaging war that erodes Constitutional freedoms, privacy, and law enforcement resources. An end to capital punishment will be sought.

<6> Balance Between Workers and Corporations
American workers are working longer and harder for less pay than 20 years ago. What’s needed is a resurgence of organized labor, and a Kucinich administration will tenaciously defend the rights of workers to organize and bargain collectively. Since the purchasing power of the minimum wage has dropped 21% in two decades, it’s time for living wages, not minimum wages. And it’s time to reverse tax cuts that benefit the already well-to-do, and retain an estate tax. Investing $500 billion to rebuild schools, roads, bridges, ports, and sewage, water and environmental systems will do more to stimulate our economy than tax breaks for the wealthy.
<7> Guaranteed Quality Education, Pre-K through College
Since education is the only proven way to reduce poverty, it is unacceptable that a child’s education be dependent on where they are born or the financial status of their family. The federal government spends only 2.9% of its budget on education. That will change under a Kucinich administration, because quality education is a core American right and value.

Education must emphasize creative and critical thinking, not just test-taking. Schools need money to decrease class size, increase teachers’ salaries, renovate decaying facilities, and include hands-on job training for those not going to college. Pre-K and after-school programs will get increased funding, and the soaring costs of college will be reversed.

<8> A Renewed Commitment to Peace and Diplomacy
America will return to its role as the most admired—not hated—nation. The doctrine of "pre-emption" will be retired, as will an aggressive, unilateralist foreign policy that makes our homeland less secure, not more. Our security will be enhanced by working with other nations and the U.N. instead of acting like an Empire, arrogantly undermining international agreements such as the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, the Biological and Chemical Weapons Conventions, the Small Arms Treaty, the International Criminal Court, and the Kyoto Climate Treaty. As President, Kucinich will work to implement two measures he sponsored in Congress: the Space Preservation Treaty, which bans space-based weapons, and a cabinet-level Department of Peace, to establish non-violence as an organizing principle in both domestic and international affairs.

A Kucinich administration will cut bloated and unneeded weaponry from a military budget that now almost equals the military spending of all other countries combined. The Kucinich peace dividend will be invested in education, health care, environmental clean-up, urban infrastructure, Social Security, veterans’ benefits, and other pressing domestic needs.

<9> Restored Rural Communities and Family Farms
Agriculture, trade, and economic policies that favor agribusiness conglomerates have devastated family farmers, rural communities, and the environment. While the number of family farmers has plummeted, profits have soared for a handful of agribusiness giants that increas-ingly control everything from seed to shelf.

A Kucinich administration will break up agricultural monopolies and restore a strong, independent family farm system with fair prices for farmers and healthy food for consumers. A Kucinich Administration will monitor and reduce contamination of our air, water, and food from factory farms, with strong USDA enforcement of tough new food safety laws.

<10> Environmental Renewal and Clean Energy
Clean air and water, as well as an intact ozone layer, are not luxuries, but necessities for our children’s future.

A Kucinich administration will toughen environmental enforcement, support the Kyoto Treaty on global climate change, reduce oil dependence, and spur investment in alternative energy sources, including hydrogen, solar, wind, and ocean. Clean energy technologies will produce new jobs. Tax and other incentives will favor sustainable businesses that conserve energy, retrofit pollution prevention technologies, and redesign toxins out of their manufacturing processes. The right to know (for example, when food is genetically engineered) will supercede corporate secrecy. Globally, the U.S. will become a leader in sustainable energy production and a partner with developing nations in providing inexpensive, local, renewable energy technologies

I agree with DK on nearly every element of his platform. His vision of America is a good vision and one I would support.

The crux of the matter is he comes off whiney to me. 'I mean, Hello!' that phrase uttered in one debate rings in my ears everytime I see him. Great personal ideology, poor charisma. He doesn't inspire me in the least. That is the hurdle he has to get over.

I support Dean even though I don't agree with everything he stands for because reading his speeches and listening to him, I'm inspired. He isn't eloquent like Kerry, but he expresses things exactly the way I like to hear them. In a crisis and I have to choose to listen to DK or Dean, I would listen to Dean. I just hope and pray that Dean is smart enough to be able to aggregate the ideas and experience of people like DK in order to make the best of all decisions. And that is something else about Dean that attracts me to him: he does seem to be able to be flexible, to alter his position as new data becomes available.

of charisma. I'm finding the majority of people who see him speak feel diffrently and wind up enthused about him.

My point in posting this is that he'll never appeal to everyone on the basis of charm or charisma, know what I mean? I don't know if you've noticed but he's listened to criticisms on how he portrays himself in the debates and he's tried to alter it but it never seems to work out as well as we hope it will. Either it makes matters worse in the eyes of would-be supporters or it angers a few opponents supporters. The criticisms about charisma are almost impossible to overcome because when he changes his style SOMEone or another won't like it.

and we are fighting over the electibility issue now. He thinks he sounds whiny and does not like to listen to him. Last night during the CSPAN feed I talked him away from his computer to watch for a minute. It changed everything for him, he was impressed with his warm smile and how he looks at people with a light in his eyes that is quite charming. He still does not like his voice but that is hardly a reason to dismiss the guy.

so many times i have wished that i could have the policies of kucinich in the package of dean, but since it's not that way i've decided to go with ideas over personality. after all so many people voted for bush because he seemed like a nice guy and look where that got us. i would like to believe what you say about dean listening to people, but i hope you'll forgive me for being skeptical as all politicians like to appear like they listen to people and take their views into consideration. after all, who going to vote for someone that tells them, "Who cares what you think?"

And the brains to back it up :D Again, I will repeat...

I do NOT care about appearances, haircuts, crotch comparisons, attire comparisons, charisma comparisons, etc. We can all stand back and let superficial judgments cloud our decisions or we can open the wrapper and trash it..taste what's inside and determine if it really has any substance THEN decide!

GET OUT OF THIS POLITICAL ARENA BOX! Let's get real for once!!! We have that chance with Kucinich! :hi:

I love to push for an ideal, it is the only way to go, but the reality is Visionaries can't be President. A visionary can't be tied to polls and the whims of the populace. Some people say JFK was a visionary, but I say that is bull. He knew how to use the language of visionaries to cover his very pragmatic personality.

DK is a visionary. He not only sees a better America on the horizon he is already there. He isn't Moses thinking he knows the way, he is there waving to us to come on over. Unfortunately, we still have all sorts of obstacles to overcome and need the pragmatic leaders to help us get over them.

We are a crass and shallow society. Haircuts, voice timbre, height, looks, gestures and mannerisms matter. There is a show on The Learning Channel called the Date Patrol and they videotape people who have difficulties dating and it is remarkable how the little mannerisms that people don't even realize they have are such a big turn off. That is DK's core problem. Give people a copy of DK's position compared to other candidates without names attached and he comes out pretty good. Now show him saying his positions compared to the others saying theirs and he doesn't come out as good. It isn't enough to have the right positions. I know that is wrong. You need a good message and a good messenger.

There is a great book on marketing called 'The Tipping Point' which talks about Paul Revere and another minuteman. William Dawes. They both carried the exact same message - 'The British are coming' but Paul Revere was much more successful in getting people to listen to it. Why? Because he was a more effective messenger. He knew who to contact in the small towns, he had the connections, and he had the charisma to get people riled up. Dawes didn't. Dawes was ineffective. Dawes knocked on the wrong doors and didn't get a notable response.

DK is like Dawes. He has a great message, but he isn't a good messenger.

"....but the reality is Visionaries can't be President."

So what...if this has been true up til this point in time.. we can change...but only by changing ourselves...by having the guts to not be swayed by what we have "known" in the past and what the spin is now.

Why can't visionaries become president?? Has there been a law written? Is it in the patriot act? Who told you this? experience?? history?? your professor???

I say we can change that...very simply by not buying into that or anything else the media or whoever tells us. We are the ones who can write our future the way we want it...so why write it second best? why not go for broke? I agree with so many on this thread that this is a very crucial time for humanity and the planet. I am not inclined to give it over to some mealy mouthed wishywashy politico from either party.

With Dennis Kucinich,we have been offered a true shining star...can we be grownup enough to get past a packaging job that may not be exactly what we have been told its supposed to be?? Can we get over what our programming has been to come to together long enough to do something for our future...and our childrens' future??

It is time to stop the petty superficial judgements and look at the bigger picture...if you disagree with him on the issues that is one thing...but the rest...:shrug:

:hug: Peace
DR



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"Pragmatism" is what's turned this party into Republican-Lite. "Pragmatism" nominates the likes of Gore/Liebermann, who were not a whole lot different from Bush/Cheney in the eyes of voting Americans.

People who vote for "pragmatists" often do so because the "pragmatist" is the "evil of two lessers". They don't enthusiatically support the "pragmatist". They pull the level because he's not quite as bad as the "other pragmatist".

Was Kennedy a pragmatist? How about Reagan? People didn't vote for either of these men because they were pragmatic, they voted for them because they had a VISION for America that seemed DIFFERENT from what their opponents were offering, and not like the same warmed-over tripe from four years before.

As Jim Hightower says, "there ain't nothing in the middle of the road 'cept yellow stripes and dead armadillos."

FDR sure was a visionary, of course visionaries win.

i don't, that's why i support him, it's just at times i'd like to imagine how he'd be doing if he did have the 'look' that so many others say is so important. i don't think he could be stopped. oh well, enough dreaming.

The crux of the matter is he comes off whiney to me. 'I mean, Hello!' that phrase uttered in one debate rings in my ears everytime I see him. Great personal ideology, poor charisma. He doesn't inspire me in the least. That is the hurdle he has to get over.

I support Dean even though I don't agree with everything he stands for because reading his speeches and listening to him, I'm inspired.

On one hand, you're attacking Kucinich as "not inspiring you" due to his performance (and I'll agree, it's a bit of a turnoff) in the debates as coming off as a bit shrill. BUT, on the other hand, you cite your source of inspiration from Dean as coming from reading and hearing his speeches.

Here's what you do -- just do a google search for Dennis Kucinich speeches. Read through a few of them. I guarantee you'll walk away with a realization of just WHY he inspires so many hard-core lefties and progressives out there. It isn't just his "policies" -- it's his ability, in the proper environment, to completely move you toward believing in the better future that he envisions.

And I guarantee you that he offers more in the way of solutions than Howard Dean has done thus far.

But DK lost me when he expounded on his single payor plan as fixing what is broken, calling it "Medicare for All"

I don't like having seniors on Medicare, much less the entire country. Could you imagine if this whole country had to start figuring out the maze that is Medicare? Don't get me started about Rx benefits ... or the lack of them.

No, let's take the good doctor's suggestion, and work at a less-radical, pragmatic solution.

That way, we can make progress, and actually keep the metaphorical patient alive instead of unplugging the life support.

Single Payer works with global budgeting, unlike Medicare, which has modeled its oversight mechanisms on those of private insurance.

An analogy to controlling costs would be controlling the movements of a herd of cattle. Global budgeting is like putting a fence around them and allowing them to move freely inside of it. Private insurance and Medicare are like hiring a cowboy for every 3 or 4 cows to hold reins on them.

Getting rid of private insurance makes it possible to get rid of oversight practices tied to it.

Maybe he can learn to use the medium better. It's too bad he can't bottle and sell how he comes off in direct contact with people. In person he is electrifying!

My girlfriends poli sci class was asked if they favored diplomacy over aggresion, almost the whole class raised thier hand.

MY girlfriends polie scie class was asked if they favored a single payer canadian health system, all raised thier hand.

We are ready, and we don't even know it.

We are more ready than we think.

I love Kucinich but feel I would waste my vote.

a vote is a vote

--and the politicians who advocate them, then WHENTHEHELL ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO DO IT??!? Never? Isn't next year soon enough to worry about pragmatic Plan Bs?