ya know, i don't much give a damn if it looks like surrender,

or even if it's called surrender by the international community and chalked up in the right hand column on some mythological score board that's kept in the ether someplace. i really don't give a shit if it counts as a loss or a win, i'm just tired of bleeding lives and resources in iraq for absolutely no reason that any sane person can decipher at this moment any longer. we have no purpose there any longer, assuming we ever did in the first place, (a huge assumption) and we need to get the hell out, right now, on a timetable, w/o a timetable, leaving a force behind or not, i honestly don't care. far too many have already died and been maimed and the continued slaughter and mayhem of more isn't gonna change their circumstance one iota. let's just get the fuck outta there, ok?

five years. America needs to learn how to do without Iraqi Oil and eventually without Middle East Oil. Pirates and privateers have no future and that is what we have become.

Each day the argument sounds more and more like 'why the French must stay in Algeria' - what the hell difference did it make when they left it or when they left Vietnam, for that matter. It is time we grew up.

is the worst reason to justify the killing, and deaths of any more people anywhere- Pride, stupid f ing pride- Maybe we ought to think about how stubborn pride has a price tag that those who insist on 'staying the course' never have to pay up for.
Ask Robert E. Lee- he could have 'stayed the course'- and what would have changed???? only the death toll- Dying in 'vain'??? what the hell is vanity anyway?

The civil war is already going on in Iraq- our presence there is only getting in the way- we began it, but we can't end it- short of killing everyone-

we did that in '72...didn't work...divide the country,fill the place up with peacekeepers,let the Iraqis govern themselves. Let the kurds run the north and yes Turkey will have a fit, worried about their kurds..not our problem.
History teaching a lesson..vietnam is now at peace and a trading partner..it took 40+ years.

Welcome to DU!! :toast: