Flee to another country? Go to jail on principle? Burn your draft card? Try to devise creative excuses? Get doped up before your physical? Fake gay? Or eagerly march off to fight in George W. Bush's wars of conquest?

This is a real issue that must be discussed, seeing as how we are now fighting a two front war right now, with one, arguably both, not progressing very well at all. Most of the national guardspeople--who have been depleted to the bone--will not be reupping next year and it is very possible, even likely that this Administration will seek to open up a third front in Iran, Syria or somewhere else. The numbers just don't add up, and this set of conditions points to conscription.

The recruiters are a little busy here, but that's just my local take. I'm too old now, but, if asked to serve, I would go.

and laugh my ass off.

tonight sure appreciate you "support", if that's the case.

Many of the folks fighting now, had no choice but to honor a contract they entered into before they knew the manner in which their services were "needed."

No mind, the folks compelled to do their "patriotic duty" to BushCo. should be on the front lines.

Think Darwin...

Am I understanding you correctly that you would belittle/make fun of vets who came back after being drafted, and actually went?

I'd belittle/make fun of the mindless sheep who show up for their draft physical.

I would pity those returning from the front lines.

I'm a vet....and I made every effort while still serving to tell any poor SOB who would listen not to join.

RC

Hmmmm. Wonder what those will be used for?

(the draft). However, the Bush Regime has to face the facts: the numbers in the armed forces are low (1.2 million?). I've read here that troops have become disenchanted with the war in Iraq. They are pledging not to re-enlist. There are probably enough recruits coming in, but it may not be enough to cover all the fights we're picking around the globe.

Many people have said that no one will vote for Bush if that happens. However, what's to stop him if he wins next November? I'm sure there are already plans in the works to start conscription. I read recently that Rums-filled requested a list of all eligible young men in the US between 18 and 26. He quickly qualified by saying that he was only interested in the numbers, not in actual draft.

Yeah, sure. Count on the draft if Bushco wins next year. They have a lot of plans, and they need people to carry them out.

timeframe bush will have to start replacing 140,000 troops in IRAQ. Now a couple group have come home, and will they be ordered back for a year's tour.

There was a short window during that beruit bombing in 82 or so when i thought they'd start drafting... and sure as hell, i'd have left in an instant rather than die for some stupid american evil occupation.... and were i still of age, the sentiment reigns.

Die for your own cause, not some wasted illegal occupation. If you have a college degree, ask your grandpa vietnam vet what "frag" means... get ye to canada and live a full life.

And watch "don't ask, don't tell" go bye-bye.

and help ferry my draft age friends out of the country.

Faster than you can say "Bush Sucks"...I have a 10 year old son who will not be sacrificed for the bush regime! We're outta here if they reinstate the draft. We will probably be gone before that happens though.

I have a son who just turned 20. We're outta here too if they even mention a draft. Send Barbara and Jenna and let's see what Bushco and Big Momma Bush have to say then. In the meantime, we continue to add whatever we can to our runaway to Canada fund.

and follow the law. I would do my patriotic duty. I would be scared shitless and afraid but I would do it.

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I just respect the rule of law.

otherwise they would count votes and respect the constitution.... you are free. There is no nobility in dying in slavery to protect the plantation owner's estates... and no matter how much one can pretend the causes of these miltiary actions is "national interest" and patriotism, its a load of bollocks.

The memorial for the dead slaves who died to protect their master's property has forgotten their names... its not patriotic.. it is plain stupid.

Makes quite a statement too.

It may, however, harm your political aspirations. You need to get a National Guard gig, abuse drugs and alcohol and ultimately go AWOL.

(on edit: typo)

Certainly Bush style neo-colonialism is both illegal and immoral.

Why wait for the draft, I'm sure there's a recruiting office near you.
Go down on Monday and start the paperwork, then let the rest of us know.

When you pass the physical, and get sworn in, and before you leave for BCT, let us know.

Make sure you ask for a combat arms MOS, 11B10 Infantryman would be a good one for you.

The only way you would do your patriotic duty...is if you were forced? How lame. A real patriot doesn't need to be forced, Carlos. If indeed you feel military service is a test of patriotism...then volunteer to serve...anything less comming from someone who talks like you, is hypocritical cowardice.

RC "and yes I am a VET"

......and I'm Korea war vet. So Juan get up on your rusty dusty and go today if you feel that stongly about the "rule of law"

Henry David Theoreau....Civil Disobedience

Even when the "rule of law" has been perverted by unelected and fraudulent leaders? Personally, I have absolutely NO respect for the "law" that is being administered in this country today. What passes for "law" is nothing more than illegal dictates from illegitimate usurpers. Feh!

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He probably has you on ignore anyway. I think Carlos only sees about ten posters posts on this board....

RC

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Right?

There *IS* a true threat to the United States. It resides at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, and I am doing my damnest to "defend our country."

If that makes me a "coward"... guilty as charged.

So I'll try real real hard to keep this civil.

Your words reek fear. It is your duty to your children, my children and all of the innocent people in this country to serve your country when you are called.

I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE INVASION OF IRAQ

As I said in my previous post, if there were a true threat of invasion from another country, I would happily volunteer to return to the military and I would be proud to defend MY country.

As far as your reference to the threat that resides at 1600 Pennsylvainia Avenue, I am fighting that by voting against this criminal administration. Furthermore, I will be advertising free rides to the polls in my community.

Stop degrading those that are fighting right now, it shows no class.

From what I've read, they hate it as much as we do.

JOIN UP!


RC

i am not that cowardly, and when i run for political office i'll break my foot off in the asses of those bastards

They draft me when the Chinese are standing on the east bank of the Saginaw River.
John
But I would say that the kids had better start getting involved in matters which are soon to affect their very futures (or potential lack of them).

Faking gay or hiding is the cowards way out of doing ones duty.

You're my hero.

Sigh...

Certainly would not be my intention.

but sh*t happens.

chief. Once you join the military...your intentions are of no damn consequence. What the fuck do you think soldiers are for? Your first and foremost duty is to catch enough of the enemys bullets, that their side runs out before your side does. Jesus Christ!!! How the hell old are you? Do you think war is a fucking cartoon or something? Sorry to be the one to tell you...but it ain't an 'army of one'. The shitheel with the long lenses doesn't ask and doesn't care what you think...he does the thinking and you do what he says...and if and when that includes marching off to die...then that is what the fuck you do.

RC
Vet

Besides just take the conscientious objector route, as validated by the supreme court in 1971.

But my perspective has more to do with personal honor.

That sounds more like conformity to me. Standing up for what you believe to be right- even when other people will hate you for it- is brave.

God I get tired of people like you. Trying to blow hot air up everyones ass. If you think it is so fuckin patriotic and honorable to get your ass shot off doing gaurd duty for Haliburton...what the fuck are you doing sitting in front of a computer babbling about it? JOIN UP....TOMMOROW, when you get back from Afghanistan, Iraq or Syria you can tell me all about your personal honor.

RC
Vet

"God I get tired of people like you. Trying to blow hot air up everyones ass."

It seems that its one or two taking on the entire forum. Hard to get tired of such a small minority. Please, stop blowing your own hot air. It gets tiresome listening to the future Canadians slam others that dont agree. It's also hard to hear their credible and honorable words when there being shouted from another country. And for others, I guess the "pay your way" educational plan just didnt meet your expectations when you were in? While I dont think I share totally those one or two individuals views about the honor thing, I sure would hold those running as accountable as the administration. Let the flames begin, like it even matters

Figured it was all clever and such.
You do know it's a veteran you are responding to, right?

Hmmmmm... future Canadian, or future worm food....

Go for the latter, Jason600.

Do you need the location of your local recruiting center? I'd be glad to help out.

(on edit: typo)

But it was kinda clever, thanks. i do not enjoy any one person (or two) getting slammed by many (ya know, protect the minority and all) regardless of what is being said. As far as you being a vet.....ok, not sure about what that is about since I didnt tell you to leave the country or to go enlist; sure you had some reason for it though. I did say....."And for others, I guess the "pay your way" educational plan just didnt meet your expectations when you were in?" I do not presume to suggest that this at all fits your military experience or reasoning but one never knows. And, (this always makes me laugh...so thanks), your comment "Do you need the location of your local recruiting center? I'd be glad to help out." Thats like saying, why wait for the draft... need to know where to get cheap plane tickets to Canada, get out of our country" The hypocracy is endless, present company excluded of course. It can be used on any subject, at any time. Having read many of your posts, it is rather beneath you, unless it's a security thing (they dont agree, so I'll make fun of them which will make me feel better about myself) Which would still be very funny, but at least it would explain some things.

Looking forward to arguing with you soon,

Love, Jason

DemsUnite was referring to me. I'm a veteran. So your response to my post was anything but clever....you see, I did my time in service of my country and I volunteered to do it.

RC

so, its clever to be venomuos to others not due to them being rude to you or anyone else, but its not ok to change the statements to reflect the opposite of what you are saying and give it back? or am i missing the point. I dont agree with what the others were saying, and am new here, so maybe I just dont know the rules. My point was to give back along the same lines as what was being given. there is no difference, regardless of what a person believes. if that wasnt true, than what seperates us from people like rush who slam people for not walking heal to toe with them? Or are both sides the exact same but just on different sides of the issue? Im new here so dont have much experience with this.

It would be a massive life changing event. But as Americans we have a duty to serve and protect our country.

The fact that Bush is in office, as opposed to Clinton or another Democrat does nothing to change our duty to our country.

...the military has a duty to SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES, it says so in the oath I took four times.

How do you equate SUPPORT AND DEFENSE OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES, if you are supporting an administration that has continued to go out of it's way to use THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES, as nothing more then a door mat.

The fight begins here at home, not on a distant battlefield. All that's happening now is that troops are dying for nothing, they are not dying for their country, they are dying for a group of men and women who have no, HOW TO YOU PUT IT, HONOR. And they definitely are not dying for me, I didn't ask them too.

Honor and integrity are great things, but mean nothing if you give up your life for nothing.

I will agree with you, it does not matter who is in office, but duty to your country means to take a stand and defend THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES,not to support any one man. The motto of the USMA, West Point is DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY.

RC
vet

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Exactly what duty are you referring too. No one has a duty to get killed so that a few can become richer then they already are.

I'm a Vet, and when an enemy attacks my country, I will fight for it.
But I believe in what General Patton said, "No one ever won a war by dying for his country, he won it by making the other poor SOB die for his."

By the way when bullets are flying you don't stand up, you hide!!!!

Well..because I don't want to!

I've got a good comfortable life, a family, a home and a career. I'll leave out for a moment that I'm to old to join because even if I were younger I wouldnt join up.

However if the nation was on the ropes and required men and women to defend it, I would do so.

As it is right now, that is not the case and frankly I can proaby better serve our country in the capacity that I'm in right now.

Don't mistake my support of our country for support of Bush, that is simply not the case.

Sounds pretty close to young Cheney's 'other priorities'?

and they do away with dontaskdonttell immediately after instituting the draft?

I wouldn't serve. No way, no how. Not if I couldn't previously serve and still remain myself.

That's slavery, pure and simple.

Our nation getting invaded? That's another story entirely. But don't you dare tell me I can be forced to serve in a military in which I could not previously volunteer and be honest about myself, but now MUST serve in or go to jail.

I hope that post made some sense.....

To me it sounds unlikely now if the gays supported the republican party and they supported them it might happen. But their constiunicey is the right wing religous fundelmentalist's and people who hate gays. they would have a cow if they did away with the don't ask don't tell policy.

If the republican President and Congress were to re instate the draft and do away with the don't ask don't tell policy. That would certianly loose them the votes needed to win the next election. Conservativces most Republlicans and the independants who vote them in do not want Gays to serve in the millatary. So it would just be too risky if the two would happen many moderates and independants would not re elect the Republicans to power. Now a draft and a draft alone would not casue them too much votes.

One thing to keep in mind is the President is limited to two terms so a President serving a second term will not have little reason to think about what the voters think. And it is a good thing the Senate and Congress have elections every two years.

hopefully it would stop before i turn 18....then maybe leave right before.

wink wink, nudge nudge... why risk it... don't be there.

;)

...is to get Bush and the PNAC gang out of power and into some place
where they can do no further harm.

We could re-open this place for them:

or perhaps they should visit this place:

There are some people there who may want to ask them a few questions.

These people stole our country and are wrecking it
(along with at least two others, so far).

It has been hard. For more than twenty years I've told myself that voting isn't really that important, it's a sucker's game, it doesn't really matter. Big waste of time. I was with a lot of other people thinking it didn't really matter who won in 2000.

Boy was I wrong.

Like a big horrible fucking nightmare that just won't end, it keeps rolling on. Recently there was an election in Louisiana and I happened to spot GF's voter registration card in the incoming mail. "When did we start doing this?" I asked in jest. And she told me she was checking out the electronic voting machines. Ha-ha.

Ha-ha. Not that fucking funny, I'm the computer programmer. What she learned was how to actually vote.

I did vote once -- exactly once -- before, back in 1982, when I turned 18. Nobody I voted for won. Curse of the localroger, I figured. Gave it up as a bad job.

Shame on me. Now I may have to do a lot more than pull a lever, because there are no more levers to pull.

I was a little kid, late single digits to early teens, during the meat of the Vietnam War. And "meat" is how I remember it, all those bodies coming home and the bright promise that I'd be sent there to die myself when I turned 18. Oh, I could defer it, I might win the lottery, but I never believed in any of that. In the late 1980's a noted SF writer threw a punch at me because I opined that that particualr war had made me a pacifist.

But it was all right because the punch he threw missed (actually deflected by my girlfriend, a phenomenon that left the SF wonks with jaws grazing the floor). The war was over, the draft was done, the world wasn't improving steadily -- somehow I missed the liberated 70's and got to experience the paranoid and insular 80's instead, but it was still better than the uber-conformant 50's and 60's.

Little did I dream that in such short time those nightmares could return. The quagmire, the body bag count. The draft.

I have shirked my responsibility for far too long, as too many others have. It may not do any real good -- the mathematics of the electoral college and the realhacktik of the e-voting may make it redundant -- but I will at least go to the polls next year and show myself. I have a lot of catch-up to do.

And if they bring back the draft...

I will have a HELL OF A LOT of catch up to do. There are some things up with which one must not put, and young people being sent off against their will to fight for something they don't believe in is damn near at the top of that list.

is a bunch of guys who never served in uniform are wanting to reinstate the draft???? Where is the irony in that? Bush and Cheney literally went into hiding on 9/11, Cheney stayed in hiding for weeks and then hid again on the one year anniversary! These chicken shits would have alot of nerve to even CONSIDER reinstating the draft! Am I going crazy or does this misadministration get more fucked up everyday?


I have 4 boys...I would get the hell out of dodge! Bushco. or any other administration who wants to make war "good business" can kiss my ass. He can send his own kids.

people that I have seen trying the reinstate the draft is people like Rangel and McDermott.

by some republican members of the house many months prior to the comments by Rangel. I could be wrong - but I think it was either in January of 02, but maybe it was January of 03.

It was Rangel and McDermott that introduced the legislation for reinstatiing the draft.

A mandatory service with NO DEFERRMENTS. That means the children of the rich and connected would be FORCED to serve.

Is this a bad thing?

It was Rep. Nick Smith (R-Mich) and Rep. Curt Weldon (R-PA) who first introduced the Universal Military Training and Service Act
of 2001, which would have mandated basic military training for
Americans ages 18 to 22.

http://www.house.gov/nicksmith/pr20129a.htm

People like? What are they like? Do tell? What, these guys only good for catching bullets for you eh? They were soldiers...don't you support them? Are you anti-American or something? Or is it that you don't believe in supporting the troops with your own ass. Cause I'll tell you something chief...if there was a draft...those kids in Iraq right now would be home where they belong. Folks who think waving a flag around is supporting the troops would find out that there ass being rotated in supports those troops a whole hell of allot more. I gotta feeling a fella "like you" wouldn't like offering that kinda support....would you?

RC

they can to help "unselect" Bush. I doubt a draft will come before the election. But after? Watch out! The youth of this nation, like no time since the Vietnam draft, had better get it together, and support a Dem nominee who will get our asses out of Iraq, and keep this nation from entering unilaterial illegal wars.

Get busy kids, time is short! We didn't think we'd see a draft during the Vietnam era either..

The draft went on from about 1940 to 1973. There was a peacetime draft before we had troops committed in Vietnam, too.

Ha! Ha!!

I did know a couple of guys who had no exemptions and were stunned when they got their draft notices. I still can't understand that. Every 19 year old was being called up, it was getting tougher if you did have an exemption, the entire situation dominated the news every single day, but still they were surprised. I'm talking pre-lottery, of course.

Honor and personal integrity. (The kind you live with, not talk about) Serving my country would be an honor, for ME. It's pretty tough to fight for your country when everyone gets to decide for themselves if the war is just. You serve proudly, you might fight, and you might live or die. Then, one way or the other, you go home, but you do so with honor. Does everyone really think that all young men in WW II really WANTED to go? The Civil War? How would we have ended up if everyone had the choice of deciding whether or not the war was just, and how can we ever know the complete outcome of any coflict without eventual resolution?

When you know you are not going to be drafted, isn't it?

that's when I found out I was too old. I had just turned 40, but with a degree, thought they might take me anyway. I made the effort.

Nice try, though.

Excuse me, if I doubt something written on an online forum.

Nice try, though.

P.S. DynCorp is still hiring.

I guess. There's really no logic to your argument, but I'm encouraging my kids to serve, if that means anything to you. Whether it does or not doesn't really matter, because as you say, what some tyrant types out on his keyboard is meaningless anyway, right?

it would be your kids. See if you can get into the action somehow, too.

Once again, think "Darwin."

nt

nt

They are a civilian agency. Fighting terrorism is not a military matter. I would say history makes a fairly strong case reguarding this.


Rebuttal?

Back off.

:evilgrin:

I'll call Monday. Thanks..

Buy yourself a plane ticket to Ankara, Turkey. After you get off the plane go to the local gun shop and purchase a used AK-47 for about a hundred bucks American and all the ammo you can carry. From there get on the first bus headed due south. The Iraqi's will be sure to welcome you with open arms, and maybe even some flower petals as you march into Baghdad to help them with their liberation. Good luck, and don't forget to keep in touch to let us know how you are doing occasionally. Go get em jody...er, I mean jame.

Don

Bad idea, BTW. It just fouls thing up when unenlisted citezenz get in the way.

Anyone who thinks a 40 year old can enlist doesn't know jack shit about what fouls things up for the military.

RC

When you are cleaning foreign sand and mud out of your combat boots, Jody is back home shining his dancing shoes up to take your girl out. He's got a trick knee, or anal cyst, or important teacher college job. Jody thinks the smart play is to stay safe at home while 'you and them' fight and die.

That's really really lame, not to mention illustrative of the fact that you don't know jack shit about military service.

1991 - Persian Gulf War?
1994 - Bosnia?
1989 - Panama
1983 - Grenada?
1978 - Nicaragua...yea we were there.

Were you to old when the US was involved in these wars or invasions...or just not as full of patriotism, honor and integrity?

You didn't try at all...your nothing more than another flag waver who talks the talk but ain't got the balls to walk the walk. Why don't you go watch a John Wayne movie...

RC

Anybody who would willingly go to fight there is a rotten coward.

WWII. We're talking illegal wars that the rest of the world hates us for, similar to the way many hated Germany during Hitler's time. I understand all about "duty and honor", but don't confuse the words. Don't you think some of the young people in Germany in Hitler's time felt much the same as you? Of course they did. And do you think they were right to sign up to kill 6 million Jews, and do therest ofthe horrible things they did? I sincerely hope not.

Fighting for a just cause that deserves "duty and honor" is one thing, but there is no honor in fighting dirty, illegal wars for a fascist elite that see young people like you, as mere cannon fodder for their wars of oil and imperialism.

Don't be fooled Jame, and don't be stupid either. I doubt there is one person here who would hesitate to defend this nation against invasion or aggression, or to fight a just war. That's what being a true patriot is all about, not the phony patriotism of the fascist regime currently controlling this country.

On edit: Ah, now I read, after I posted this, that Jame is 40 years old, and encouraging HIS KIDS to sign up to fight Bush's wars. Hey Jame, I have an idea for you, ....$!&*&*&*(*(&*(%^&$%$#@(!!!!, and then, _()*&*&^%^$%#!!!@@, ..you brave man you!

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across the border.

Its the Murcan way. Yes, Sir.

Don

Burning down the draft office would be a good place to start.

Thats barbara and jenna

I am not a killer and no one will make me kill.

all those stupid frat boy types running around with their God Bless America stickers on their Ford F-150's would suddenly realize (gulp) that they might actually have to put their money where their big fat mouths are.

In that case I think it would be great.

Vietnam would have never ended if it weren't for the draft.

Opportunity to show ones true colors allright.

I was declared 4F in 1972 and am over 50 now, my son did his full service in the 82nd and and was honorably discharged several years ago. So while it's possible he could be called back, it would take a special call up by Congress and this is not likely (It did happen during Korea). My stepson might be vulnerable in 3 or 4 years, but that is something for his parents to deal with, not me - at least directly. So all that leaves is activly opposing it. I think we need to start opposing it sooner rather than later, because the NeoCons' if they win with * in '04 will have to get it implemented.

Here is why I think it might happen. First, It's becoming more obvious that we are not going to get significant assistance, either military or monetary from the rest of the world. Right now we are picking up the tab except for the Brits and some of the small contingints from places like Spain and Australia. We are paying for the Poles and most of those directly assisting them, and we will be paying for the Turks. Frankly the Turks, are likely to require us to wind up needing more troops.

Second, it is also becoming evident, and commanders on the ground are now saying as much, that we will need to keep close to the number of troops that we have on the ground now, for at least two to three more years (I suspect at least 5, but I am repeating comments made to the press by the commanding General of the 3rd, reported today so we'll go with his two or three). This is going to require one year deployments of troops until at least 2006. The reservist and the Guards seem to have significantly more moral problems than the regular army based on the survey done by Stars and Stripes, and with stories about the substandard medical care Reservists and Guardsmen are getting as reported by UPI and Drudge. This means that re-enlistment rates are likely to be very poor, and if the public perception is that Reserves and Guardsmen are treated poorly compared to regular military, then recruitment is likely to become a major problem.

It's probably a bit early yet to try to predict if long deployments to Iraq are going to hurt recruitment and re-enlistment rates, but I doubt that it is going to help.

This means that manpower is likely to become a big issue by the second half of 2004 when the second round of rotations is going to begin. The Admin. will do it's absolute best to make sure it isn't an issue prior to Nov. 2, 2004, but after that it will be Katie bar the door.

The NeoCon agenda is on hold until after the election, but they do intend to carry thru on Syria, and Iran after the election, if Bush wins. This is going to require more troops. The only way likely to get them will be a resumption of the Draft.

This country is so fragmented right now that a draft would be our death nell. The fragging that occurred in Vietnam would be a lesson in brotherly love, compared to what I suspect will happen.

and perverted it to something meaningless. My ancestors who fought in the Civil War, WW1, WW2 and Korea are spinning in their graves because of what he has done to our country. This war didn't need to be fought and no one else should die because of lies. I would wholeheartedly encourage people to avoid the draft for this war.

They'll draft as many again to "maintain order" stateside.

aren't voting...the whole $87 Billion boondoggle war funding was passed without any YOUNG draftees protesting on the Capital steps...there are few YOUNG draftees coming to protest Marches
(how about getting up off the couch and coming to DC/SF on Saturday, October 25 ????)....all the heavy lifting for the war protests are all being done by those of us who remember Vietnam and see it happening again....


todays YOUNG draftees are going like sheep to the slaughter...my guess is that they'll be glued to their video/computer amusements all the way until dragged out the door by the military (and they do drag you out the door!!, no excuses accepted)....it horrifies me that the Iraq-roto blades have been grinding up OUR young soldiers for seven months and the potential-draftees just tap on their computers here claiming that they won't be drafted and it doesn't affect them...

I will cross the border with my sons. I didn't raise them to be the fodder for *'s global destruction. If they wanted to serve, that would be one thing. If they had to actually defend our country, I would send them with my blessing, hopes, and prayers. But they are not that motherfucker's fodder to spend their lives playing world dominator. They are plenty old enough to decide for themselves, but I know what their decision would be. And I would be there to support it.

..."in committee" since January 2003 in both the House and the Senate:

Rangel introduces bill to reinstate draft
<http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/rangel.draft/>

"Under his bill, the draft would apply to men and women ages 18 to 26; exemptions would be granted to allow people to graduate from high school, but college students would have to serve.

Anyone who didn't qualify for military service because of impairments would be asked to perform community service.

The lawmaker has said his measure could make members of Congress more reluctant to authorize military action. The Korean War veteran has accused President Bush and some fellow lawmakers of being too eager to go to war."

Hollings Sponsors Bill to Reinstate Military Draft
<http://hollings.senate.gov/~hollings/press/2003108C06.html>

"Specifically, the bill mandates a national service obligation for every U.S. citizen and permanent resident, aged 18-26. To that end, the legislation authorizes the President to establish both the number of people to be selected for military service and the means of selection. Additionally, the measure requires those not selected specifically for military service to perform their national service obligation in a civilian capacity for at least two years. Under the bill, deferments for education will be permitted only through high school graduation."

There was a bill introduced in the house by a republican congressman (I think in January of 02)

:argh:

that's what I'll do if there's a draft ...

At the Dittoboyz trying to grow zits on their royal asses!

help resisters establish lives in Mexico or Canada.

And perhaps send my boy to canada or some place

lovedems (265 posts) Fri Oct-17-03 09:38 PM
Response to Original message

26. What is so hilarious about this scenario


is a bunch of guys who never served in uniform are wanting to reinstate the draft???? Where is the irony in that? Bush and Cheney literally went into hiding on 9/11, Cheney stayed in hiding for weeks and then hid again on the one year anniversary! These chicken shits would have alot of nerve to even CONSIDER reinstating the draft! Am I going crazy or does this misadministration get more fucked up everyday?


I have 4 boys...I would get the hell out of dodge! Bushco. or any other administration who wants to make war "good business" can kiss my ass. He can send his own kids.


Uh... wrong. The two sponsors of the bills to bring back the draft are Senator Fritz Hollings and Congressman Charlie Rangel. Both are Democrats, and BOTH ARE VETERANS. Get your facts straight before you start spouting off, because I am tired of hearing incorrect information about this. For the record, the Pentagon OPPOSES draftre-instatement, as do most military officials.

Here's the link to prove it:

http://hollings.senate.gov/~hollings/press/2003127851.html

You're wrong.

Btw, to respond to the question of the original poster, I would take CO status. I would not flee to Canada, I would do the time. Why, you may ask? Because I don't think I could kill someone. Maybe I would sign up to be a medic or in another job where I would not have to do that.

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I will respond to yours, with less anger obviously.

First of all, maybe I was wrong in assuming the administration/pentagon was behind the draft being brought back. It seemed like a logical connection to me because this administration needs a hellava lot of troops if they are going to contine on this path of empire building and pre-emtive war. They lobby for every other ridiculous policy they want, why not lobby for the draft? As you so politely pointed out, it was democrats who introduced the bill. Well, I checked out your link and what you fail to mention is they are introducing the bill based on WHAT THE PRESIDENT SAYS ABOUT THE WAR ON TERROR which I noticed the release date as January 2003.

"Both of us believe that, as Americans, we all share the many benefits of living in this country. But if we are preparing for war against an enemy who wishes to 'threaten our society,' as the President says, then it makes sense that all who benefit from our society must share in the burden of defending it," they stated in the joint letter.

Well, we now know what the president said wasn't quite true and who knows if we will ever learn the truth about 9/11 because of the stonewalling this administration has done. So you busted me, I made an assumption about who was behind the draft and according to you, I was wrong, but it was not merely "spouting off" as you so politely accused me of doing. I am not at all convinced that the administration is not involved in this behind the scenes. So if your hope was to slam me into submission about getting my facts straight, try again. Where this administration is concerned you can't get your facts straight because you can't base facts on lies and that's all we have been given.


BTW, "For the record, the Pentagon OPPOSES draftre-instatement, as do most military officials." For the record, I don't believe anything the pentagon has to say.

amongst those likely to be drafted and get them to oppose the war, but there is little the bushies would like more than to get a draft going

Bush is stupid, but his advisers aren't. They know how unpopular a draft would be.

Although I disagree with the war, and everything about it, I don't think it is ever a good idea to run. First, what if a REAL threat comes and we need the draft? If Vietnam and Iraqi II says to people if you don't agree than you don't have to obey we could put ourselves in serious trouble in the future.

If I go in this unjust war, than others have no excuse not to obey in a war that would be just.

I would not like it, I might die for a worthless cause, but if it helps someone else to join a war in the future and save the nation, or the world, it would be worth it.

Imagine if people avoided the draft in WWI of the past,people supported the idea of dodging the draft, and in doing so caused millions of men to avoid going to fight in WWII. That is very dangerous. You don't know what impact you might have on others in the future. They may get the impression that NO WAR is worth fighting.

I would however, fight against the idea of a draft, and vocally and politically fight it as long as I could.

I may not like this administration, and this war, or agree with any aspect of it, but I am an American, and I will do what I have to do.

Mike

people can judge for themselves whether a war is just or not just? WWII was a far different scenario than Iraq, and was justifiable. But if you fight in Iraq, and there is no good reason for the war, and you kill people, aren't you killing innocent people?

If you lived in Nazi Germany, and Hitler's government drafted you for military service, would you serve the Nazi regime? I would not.

Why are we in Iraq? For the oil? To stimulate the economy? To establish a permanent presence in the Middle East?

None of these reasons is good enough for me to blindly obey a government that I do not trust to begin with. I could not kill anyone for these reasons.

How is any average person suppose to know if they are fighting for a just cause or not?

If a Draft is implemented it would have to pass both houses of Congress. If that happens then chances are it is a real reason.

Plus you assume that I would be killing innocent people. I don't think so, I would swear an oath not to do that, it is against international law.

We can not effectivly defend this country when every soldier asks: "Why?" everytime an order is issued. We cannot take the time to make sure that every person understands the reasons behind every action.

We do that before in courts, congress, and the voting booth. After that, we have to work together.

Mike

You have far more faith in the government than I could ever have, and so far I've been dead on about causes. The government has not been. I trust only my own judgement, and I live my life according to my own conscience. I am not a sheep.

The courts unjustly decided that bush should be Resident. Congress voted to pre-emptively go to war in Iraq over WMD that did not exist. And the voting booth is now compromised by electronic voting devices. I no longer trust any of them.

If my country was attacked I would defend it, and defer to the military under that circumstance.

it would have to pass both houses of Congress. If that happens then chances are it is a real reason."

Oh really?! Didn't that absurd Iraqi War Resolution and now the $87 billion funding just pass both houses of Congress. And have the reasons for the war been "real" and is the money really going to the troops or to Halliburton and Bechtel? Oh, and didn't both houses of Congress give us the damnable Patriot Act? Please, you trust too much. This Congress and this White House are wholly owned by the corporations of the military-industrial complex. Their reasons are to make money, PERIOD. Trust them at your own peril.

But I am not going to go against my country. If millions of Americans die why should I be exempt, for a good cause or bad cause, I live here, I enjoy and suffer the blessing and cursings of everyone else. I am not above dying when lots of others will be.

If the Congress makes a bad decision the remaining surviors will oust them.

Mike

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and that includes some DUers that love the military without having a clue about what they are in love with.

Support the troops by joining them in the field, chickenhawks!

If they really supported the troops they would be joining Dennis Kucinich's call for a total American withdrawal by New Year's Day, 2005.

he wouldn't be supporting the Flag Burning Amendment, which is an insult to all the men and women who died protecting our constitutional right to free speech.

not the flag burning issue. Nice try!

in an earlier post to this thread. Now, I'm moving on to other issues. Thanks. ;-)

What branch of military did you serve?

I was a sailor(Boatswains Mate) on the USS Austin, LPD 4

don't worry, kids, we've got you covered.

to do that. I don't think he would do it until 2004 if he stole the Office again (and I'm hopeful they won't manage it this time)

I hope I'm right, I've got 3 draft-age nephews and one in the Army now.

It would be a whole different story. When there was a draft and an unpopular war was when we decided that issues couldn't be addressed through electoral politics and we took to the streets for real. Basically, if there was a draft, this country would explode in very little time.

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Care to post the verbage of HR 3598, A_Tra?

if she does I will send my son there .
I will stay and do all I can here .

I'm too old, plus I am a female. And my son is too old and deaf in one ear.

bill to reintroduce the draft, please correct me if I am wrong. If my memory serves me right (there is always a first time :silly:), his idea behind this, and the "no deferments" clause, was to make the Repubs think twice about all of their warmongering, knowing that their children would not be safe from the draft anymore than ours. No more "anal cysts", "better things to do", "positions already taken" (wasn't that Senator Bugman?), or any other half-assed excuses made to avoid service.

Jenn

The rich would never let his version pass. Thier kids would have to fight too so there was no way it was gonna pass. He introduced it as a way to send a message.

...its easy to say "yeah- let's go kick their butt" - when your life and your loved ones' lives will not be touched.

The draft would force Congress/Americans to think about going to war more carefully.

it would be a vote killer for whichever party proposed it.

Why not start your Saturday with some more controversy?

:kick:

in fighting this illegal and unjust war should not wait for a draft. they should sign up now, after all, the military needs the troops. If you believe this war is wrong, then how can you fight in it? we didnt listen to the SS and Nazis when they used the excuse of "patriotic duty" so why should we use the same excuse? Ill fight and be ready to die for my country in a just war of defense. Ill not vernture to spill one drop of blood and render my child fatherless over greed for oil.

I will not let my sons be sacrificed for "america's interests".

As I said in my previous post, I hate this fvcking Iraq occupation.

HOWEVER, if a true threat were to arise, I would hope that all of you that live here and take advantage of this country would be proud to serve.

Look, we are in the middle of a brutal administration that doesn't know it's ass from a hole in the ground, BUT THAT WILL NOT LAST FOREVER.

Eventually we will return to a government that supports ALL of the people, not just the rich.

To see all of these cowardly posts about how you would leave the country before fighting to defend it, makes me sick. What kind of people are you?

Do you like having the freedom to choose where you live?

Do you like having the right to speak out against the politician that pisses you off?

How about fresh tap water, do you enjoy that??

Did you go to public school?

What about protesting? Do you feel you have the right to protest against your governments actions?

Are your parents/grandparents retired and collecting social security?

Have you ever had to depend on the govenrment to survive?

I know there are many many things wrong with our government right now, and fixing these problems are going to take a long time, but I for one feel that this country is worth fixing. I also know that I would, even at my age, be proud to fight against a true aggressor.

I would hope you would too.

I havent seen anyone say they would not protect themselves and thier families if a true threat did arise. If you think Iraq is a true threat then you should go and enlist right now.

I think you should take your own advice. Obviously you never saw where I said I hate the invasion of Iraq TWICE. :spank:

I guess you also never saw where people said they would LEAVE THE COUNTRY :thumbsdown:

"If you think Iraq is a true threat then you should go and enlist right now.



BTW Uzybone, what branch of military were you in?

... the 19-year-old, toss him in the back of the car, and drive like hell to Canada.

and forced awareness of the result of ones apathy, ignorance and lack of interest in decisions made by ones president and representatives.

It also puts to rest a lot of empty bellowing about duty, honor and my country right or wrong, not to mention, slamming shut the mouths of the "I support the troops as long as I ain't one", crowd.

The fact is...is that if there were a draft...we wouldn't be in Iraq right now. You can take that to the bank. Think about it.

RC

:kick:

Bush is licking his chops for Iran and Syria- mentioning the exact same things he said when thirsting for Iraq. What better way to save face than to start a war with the country that the "weapons of mass destruction" went to when we weren't looking?

Unforunately, now, less than 50% of troops are planning on re-enlisting. This means DRAFT. Another war would REQUIRE a draft.

I'm applying to medical schools outside the US. Hopefully, when I come back, democrats will be back in power and the clinton economy will have returned.

they have no more love for Bush and his wars than we

If the draft is brought back, I'll win my election in 2004.

on edit - however, I will not hope for it to happen. Winning is not worth lives getting lost in a BushCo war.

I set a new personal record for number of replies to a thread. The old record was 148 on my thread "Why the Left should oppose gun control"