DEBATE: Stanley "Tookie" Williams: Redemption or Revenge?

***

Discuss!

for additional information, please see:

12/3 ** URGENT**10 Days to STOP the EXECUTION! Clemency=Life w/out Parole

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5509048

Thank you!

... including misconceptions regarding 'cost' & 'deterrence'.

to post more of it?

thank you!


peace and solidarity!

Not sure whether it's "okay", though.

thread, just itchin to cast stones, maybe i better not try it. i'll try to get to the rules about it at some point today.

i'll just try to nudge people towards it, like you did for me on the other thread (thank you!).


peace and solidarity!

Everybody has broken some law at some time. But please do not attempt to equate some minor traffic tickets and maybe a little extra income that didn't find it's way onto a 1040 to multiple murders.

in some people.

Most of those that are so angry have never lived in the inner city.

I am still amazed that there was not ONE African American on Tookie's jury,not ONE!

I have lived and worked in the inner city of Los Angeles for many,many years.

If anyone should be mad as hell at Tookie,we should.

But WE want Tookie to rot in jail and keep telling the young thugs to Stop the maddness.

Clemency for the rest of his life in jail for Tookie but NOT Death, Death will make him even more of a Super HERO and that would not be wise.

Why do you perpetuate the lie that the jury had no blacks? Could it be that such a lie serves your propaganda interest?

What brings out the anger is not so much Tookie himself, who is just another mass murdering criminal. What brings out the anger is the otherwise intelligent groupies that have fallen for his PR campaign.

BTW - There is serious doubt that he actually wrote the books.

That's been established time and again here.

Don't believe the deliberate misinformation about the racial composition of the jury (and countless other examples of bs being posted here).

http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

I have been a jury consultant.

I know racism when I see it in the UNJUSTICE system.

I did the research and the process was racist to the core, IMO.

You are certainly welcome to your opinion and I will keep my life experiences as my guide.

As long as GW Bush can not find WMD and kill innocent people and our soldiers, our barbaric system should never tell anyone about JUSTICE.

Some of the comments are not what one would expect on a liberal/progressive site. Not at all.

Or research any of the other info surrounding the case? Seems easier for some to believe a racist prosecutor... and go for revenge.

He murdered 4 people in cold blood.


You assume much.


They can still work out their problems with Tookie answering for his crimes at his makers knee



There are arguments on both sides of that issue

How many kids did he LEAD into the gang life style???
How many kids lives were ruined because of drugs he pushed???
How many people are sitting in prison because of his activities???
How many people are DEAD today because of his criminal activities???

Quite frankly I'm not impressed by his redeemed life sitting in prison

The info is on these threads. Much info in a number of articles... for those w/an open mind, that is.

On the other hand, those of the "shoot first & ask questions later" mindset... those who judge & pre-judge... those who are so quick to cast the first stone, who so readily condemn another... how does one open their minds? How does one open their hearts?

I wish you mercy.

Isn't that what Tookie did???


A judge and jury already did that with several appeals


That's rich. I'm casting the first stone because a already condemned guilty cold blooded killer is finally paying for his crimes after almost twenty years and people like yourself think his life is worth saving for what purpose? Make yourself feel better??? Saving people who never heard of Tookie until Hollywood gets it's collective panties in a wad.


Tookie was a big hearted soul when he blew the face off one of his victims and laughed about it



I do too, especially if you happen to meet one of the crips in on the street. You will need it a lot more than I will

The facts are available, if you choose to look at them.

the facts that counter that.

He helped found a huge deadly gang - no argument

He was sentenced to death for particular murders - there are problems with how this conviction came about but he is in fact sentenced - no argument, I am going forward with the belief he did do the crime.

There are many others convicted for the same type of crimes serving LWOP - I see no huge public outcry over their terms - They are not loose in the public.

He has been very active post conviction to sway would-be gangbangers away from the life. He has a particular authority in this area that cannot be replaced with a talking head. He IS doing good work.

If he is put to death - what purpose does this serve? There is no evidence it deters others. It will not bring back the victims. What purpose does this serve?

Will this make you feel better? Is that a reason to kill someone? Will his death result in the ending of gang violence? Would compassion and allowing him to do good work in prison teach youth more or would killing him teach youth more?

Justice or vengence indeed.

overturned.

I oppose the death penalty, but see no reason for this to be a SPECIAL case.

I had a RW friend at work roll his eyes - If his sentence gets commuted then everyone on DR will try this...

Is that a bad thing? The more voices coming together decrying violence and offering alternative life choices the better. Perhaps then we can get rid of the DP.

LWOP will not hurt your family.

to be a special exception - either oppose the death penalty or support it.

But trying to make a special case of Williams ignores the issue of the many other people who are on death row but without the celebrity status.

They are not to change law, they are to show mercy if warrented.

asked for in this case.

A pardon is the forgiveness of a crime and the penalty associated with it. It is granted by a sovereign power, such as a monarch. Clemency is an associated term which is the lessening of the penalty of the crime without forgiving the crime itself. The act of clemency is a reprieve. Today, pardons and reprieves are granted in many countries when individuals may have been wrongly convicted of a crime or have demonstrated that they have fulfilled their debt to society.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemency

go to the sites and see how horribly dangerous a direction justice is moving in this country!!!

well, not that some would care, by the looks of many posts here. clearly many would love it to turn even more cutthroat.

till it turns on them.


i call them the Neimoellers to-be

“First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.”

Martin Niemoeller

"the Neimoellers to-be"... very fitting.

Some of the posts... *sigh*... One can disagree w/a viewpoint w/o resorting to such vicious hatred, vengeance, & blood lust. Sad when such negative emotions come to the forefront. Futile to engage, best to ignore.

When Tookie meets his maker, thousands of young gang bangers will think twice about their situation in life. Maybe they will think that could be me.

That's good enough for me.

Personally, I'm real tired of people who kill in cold blood without remorse for their criminal activities and then plead for mercy when it's their turn to meet their maker.

At least they got twenty plus years to live. Their victims didn't have that luxury

Think about what you are saying.

Why can LWOP not be a viable option? Because it makes *you* feel better?

I'd ask you. Why shouldn't Tookie pay for his crime with his life?

I bet you might change your mindset if he murdered your family members

If his sentence is commuted to LWOP is he not paying with his life? Is using the rest of his life to help end gang violence in prison not enough - Death and silencing his voice is what it takes? I'm not understanding your reasoning. We can google war and pull up tons of opposite anecdote re: people put to death for similar crimes and people serving LWOP for similar crimes - to what end? NEITHER are a danger to society.

I would not change my mindset if they were my family members. Yes I believe my first thought would be death penalty, but should the perpetrator do the amount of work Tookie has done, I think I would ask for a sentence for LWOP - It would serve the death of my family member far more to CEASE the violence.

Death is not a deterrent here -- How many gang involved deaths are there in a year, can you not see how senseless it is?

I suggest you go to your local video store, rent "redemption". That movie actually changed half of the minds of the gangbangers that I helped out, and they have preached peace ever since. That movie was very well made and tookie did a great job of truly advocating peace. If anything at all, I would like to see his death sentence commuted, fact one, his conviction was based on lies and retractions from other gang members. Fact two, tookie saw what was happening when he led the life, and in prison, saw what was happening, decided to turn his life for the better, spent 13 years advocating against gang life and betterment for those who are endangered youths.. Fact three, he wrote several award winning childrens books advoacting against gang life.

So I suggest to you, poppyseedman, that you take my advice and watch the movie and you will also change your mind. That movie was based on true life of tookie and tookie approved this movie.

Complete and utter Bull Shit. I read his case file. The man's guilty as the day is long

I seriously doubt the movie will change my mind unless it has the power to raise the four dead people he murdered in cold blood

BTW, did the movie show the way he killed four people in cold blood or is it a nice propaganda piece???

That what I said about his case file was a that his convictioon was based on highly circumstational evidence and what's more, the gangmembers who testified were highly questionable and may have perjured themselves. IANAL, but these things are pretty damning case to be overturned. Listen, I am saying that why waste a life when this life can be used to help save others? He has paid his comeuppance and have saved many more than he has ever killed.

Ever think of that this way?

Complete and utter bullshit


http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

I've been posting the trial facts here for a few days. The other poster has provided you with the link. Please educate yourself on the facts of the case.

http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

http://crime.about.com/od/deathrow/a/tookie16.htm

I'm sure redemption is a fine movie made in the Hollywood tradition of taking large license with the facts or omitting the ugly parts of the story

The above links are real actual documented facts. I know it may be hard to digest instead of a movie, but give it your best try.

No matter how wonderful or glamorous Tookie is made to look, he still murdered four people in cold blood. That fact cannot be made to go away

Here's the death photos. Yes, that site looks to be a RW hate fest but the photos are real.

Thank you for the pdf. I got the pdf at work yesterday and din't have the address of it.

NOTE: THESE PHOTOS ARE BRUTAL!!!!!

http://www.capitalideasblog.com/

the Tookie Groupies are only interested in the fact that he wrote books and does anti-gang work from prison. They have been duped by the public relations campaign of this defendant.

"How many people are DEAD today because of his criminal activities???"

Here's one... (scroll down) NOT SAFE TO VIEW AT WORK, OR WHILE EATING!!!






























This girl and her parents died at his hands, a few hours after he'd killed an innocent store clerk. As far as I'm concerned, the sooner we put Tookie Williams to death, the better-off the country will be.

And yes, he has redeemed himself. Poppyseedman, you always seem to be on the interesting side of every argument. :shrug:

The defendant doesn't admit his guilt.

And most of the Tookie Groupies here see him as the victim, not the four people he murdered in cold blood.

he has done great works with his books. Have you read them? We, as mere mortals (from the Christian point of view) aren't the ones who should sit in judgement. Sorry, I just don't believe in an eye for an eye. Besides, life in prison is a far worse condemnation. I can't believe the blood lust on this board sometimes.


P.S. I'm not a practicing Christian. Cheers...

If you'd like to read the facts of the trial, here's a link: http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

I have a question. How far do you take your reluctance to judge people? Do you give Bush a free pass on Iraq? Do you give Reagan a free pass on Iran Contra? Do you give abortion clinic bombers a free pass? I sure as hell wouldn't. What's the problem with making up your mind about something?

EDIT: Have I read the defendant's books? Hell no.

And you can't believe the bludlust on the board? Aren't you judging people?

not a judgement. I didn't say.."Wow, you are a bloodthirsty bastard", so no, it's not a judgement. :shrug:


Two, I avidly kept up with the trial and was just as sickenend and horrified. He deserves to spend the rest of his life in prison, I just don't believe he should die for it. Living just North of Detroit, his books are used quite often in schools. Many a young man credits him with helping him to steer clear of paths best not taken.

Do I think Bush and Reagan should be executed? No. Do I think they should have been held accountable for their crimes? You bet. Sorry, your line of thought is fuzzy at best.

admit that you do judge him on his guilt. That's all I wanted to know.

By the way, you don't have to call me anything to judge me. If you say there is blood lust on the board you are quite obviously making that judgment about people.

It's okay. Judging is natural. Some just don't admit it, so they feel better about themselves and can attempt to put themselves above others. But they do it. In fact, they judge people when they criticize them for judging.

No matter what the facts...can't judge from where we sit. Sorry.

I am not questioning your right to withhold judgment. That position is right for you, but doesn't necessarily apply to others. That's fair.

:shrug: Nice try. As so often happens.

Hypothetical...Your son, friend, lover, mom...accused of murder, gets the death penalty, do you fight, even though he she they say they're innocent while all the circumstantial evidence points to them, and several of their "friends" concur? :shrug:

the trial facts. I've posted them all over this thread and others. And if you believe the TV "Law and Order" meaning of "circumstantial" (i.e. not adequate) then you have a misunderstanding of the justice system. Prisons are full of people who were convicted on circumstantial evidence. It is NOT bad evidence.

And it doesn't matter what a defendant SAYS, it matters what the evidence (circumstantial or direct) says. And it matters what numerous appeals have stated.

Please read the trial evidence.

What is this "nice try" thing? I said if not judging him works for you, that's fine. But that doesn't mean that's how other people approach things. You have proved that you pick and choose your judgments. That is your right. Your hypothetical is not analogous to this case. The defendant is not your family member, so why are you asking me what I would do if mine were in that position. My family members aren't gang members nor have they committed four murders...something you won't judge him about. Great.

Justice will be served on December 13th. Please don't forget the victims.

order". Also, for what it's worth, read this case file:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/family/fletcher/1.html

This woman was a close friend and coworker of mine, who's husband coldbloodedly murdered her when she was 6-8 weeks pregnant with their child. It is believed he shot her through the ear while having sex with her. She never knew what was coming. He is serving life in prison...which is where he should be, not on death row.


The point you seemed to have missed in our conversation is that it isn't for ANY of us (not just myself) to judge to put someone to death (guilty or innocent). You cannot play GOD.


I haven't forgotten the victims. You seem to use them as a banner for something...which is just as sick as Bush (since you brought him into this) using 9/11 and burning towers as justification for the crimes he has committed....and vengeance, which is all the death penalty boils down to. We truly are a sick society. (and yes, that's a judgement of us all)

Except maybe this defendant, who decided to take four lives against the law. This defendant had a trial and numerous appeals. That's not playing God, that's delivering justice.

And your post is full of random judgments/non-judgments. Do you have any organizing basis for these? Or do you just pick and choose when it's fair to judge?

question on why you aren't out there stomping around for the deaths of other murderers. :shrug: Your post is full of fuzzy logic. Lemming like belief in playing God.

the post again. Or I'll say it again...

I am not out stomping for other executions because I am RESPONDING to the pro-Tookie posts here. Get it? I'm RESPONDING.

The other executions aren't getting this kind of attention from those who wish to go easy on heinous murderers. Now THAT is selective. They will go unheard of, and they will pay the price. Tookie will get some support and he will pay the price too.

Can you please point me to your posts asking for clemency for other death row inmates? Thanks!

no thought to the idea of rehabilitation. Clemency for all death row inmates. I'll say it again---without childish name calling--- it's not your right nor mine to play God. We've had this discussion without Tookie here in GD. The death penalty is vengeance, plain and simple. Thanks for your concern with regard to my reading skills. Since we're getting petty, I'd suggest you "read" up on the rules of debate. Have a great night. I'll look for you out there stomping for the deaths of murderers who got "lucky" and "scored" the great sentence of life in prison. Gosh this is a simple, no brainer discussion.

with people who are familiar with the case and the administration of justice.

I'm not interested in discussing this with people who say they don't judge, but then judge. I'm not interested in debating this from an emotional standpoint. I'm not interested in people who don't read the trial facts but instead rely on the misinformation presented here, much of it coming from celebs. I'm not interested in debating this with people who make statements without a shred of substantive information to back it up.

Oh, and thanks for the links to all the other people you're trying to get off death row....

with those who will not hear, can not hear.

you made outstanding points!


peace and solidarity!

By writing children's books nobody reads? That's right, check on how many he has sold. Under a hundred for all his books.
As for the Noble Prize nominee, I could nominate my pet dog Charlie by writing a letter too.

Has he shown remorse? No.

As for being on the interesting side of the argument, if that means I don't fall for con man and his sycophants in Hollywood, I guess I will have to live with myself.

On Dec 13th I won't lose a wink of sleep.

Guilty or not...BTW, his "unread" children's books are part of the curriculum in many Detroit School Districts. Sleep well.

and, on edit: this is from the State of WI's website...

http://www.legis.state.wi.us/lrb/pubs/ttp/ttp-6-2000.html
Yeah, no one's reading them. :eyes:

He did a horrific thing by starting the Cripps, and has paid for it in spades just by being locked away for it for life...with the images so gleefully posted here on his mind. Because, whether he pulled the trigger or not, he is responsible. But I believe he has done a lot of good. Case in point, Devil's night here in Detroit is not 1/10th of what it used to be, due, in small part, to conferences using his words.

The judge and jury and the several denied appeals pass judgment on Tookie

The state should carry out their wishes as quickly as possible so the country can go back to watching ET.

One less scumbag to waste bandwidth on.

God. Why do you have a problem with his spending the rest of his life in prison for his crimes? He won't be breathing the fresh air you breathe, celebrating family holidays...none of it. Why is that not enough for you? These are the ultimate cases of two wrongs not making a right.

in cases where murderer is heinous, pre-meditated and cruel.

He murdered four innocent people in cold blood. A entire family in one moment. I'm sure they begged for mercy, I am sure they pleaded for their loved ones lives as Tookie pulled the trigger. Tookie showed no mercy, no remorse. Just laughter. He deserves to pay for his crimes with his life

He deserves none of the things he denied his victims.

I'm sure they begged for mercy, I am sure they pleaded for their loved ones lives as Tookie pulled the trigger.

And some accuse anti-dp folks of being overly emotional. :eyes:

the sanitized "Tookie is now a saint" version

He's not a saint. I never said he was.

for life in prison. :sarcasm:

that we're supposed to be tough on crime! Damn! Kill 'em all!

In BOTH the Old and New Testaments. I think you are cherry-picking the sections you want.

Most Christians ( I was raised Catholic) follow the New Testament (here referred to as NT) for most of the Church year, with the exception of the Book of Genesis and Exodus.

http://www.tektonics.org/af/cappun.html
snip-
It is patently obvious that capital punishment (hereafter CP) was practiced in ancient Israel and was not repudiated in the NT at all.

-snip

snip-

Despite his violent past, he has changed his life in a positive way... in doing so, he has led thousands of young people away from gang life.

Today he is a peacemaker.


Hmmm, what is it that the Jesus said about 'peacemakers'?

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God." - Matthew 5: 9


And about judging?

"Judge not, and ye shall not be judged. Condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned. Forgive, and ye shall be forgiven." - Luke 6: 37


And, of course, there's...

So when they continued asking Him, He lifted Himself up and said unto them, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." - John 8: 7

My wingnut brother sent me the autopsy photos of his victims. They are brutal. He was laughing about the sounds a man he killed made dying.

1) Has he even taken responsibility for the murders?

2) Has he really reformed? Seems he's still running the crips.

3) Woop-d-do, he (or his lawyers) wrote children's books.

4) Who cries for his direct victims? Who cries for the numerous victims of the crips? Who cries for crips member's lives ruined by their violent lifestyle?

Now, I don't like the death penalty. It was used by racist cops and prosecutors to kill innocent minorities among numerous other reasons. If his sentence was commuted to life (where there is no chance of parole unlike Manson), I could go for that, no problem. I think two wrongs don't make a right but let us not kid ourselves. Tookie is a murderous thug, nominating him for a Nobel prize is an abomination. Is he and his 'works' equivalent to the infinite good works of Jimmy Carter? I don't think so and neither were Arafat's. It cheapens the Nobel prize. I am also not impressed with another thug like Snoop Dog, what about the other people on death row, they aren't notorious enough to attract celebrities concern?

Go ahead and spare his life, not because he has reformed, it's obvious he hasn't. Do it because the death penalty is a ghastly thing. Here's a chance for Arnold to, for once in his life, do the right thing. ALL of the people on death row should have their sentences commuted to life.

You might want to look into the facts, rather that the "wingnut" version... then again, you might not care about the facts.

I agree with you, spare his life, but don't do it based on his jail house conversion. Do it because the death penalty is wrong.

My brother sent me the pdf of the prosecutor's case and a link to the photos. It's pretty damning evidence even if it came from my brother. He didn't write it nor is it his work in those photos.

Are you claiming he didn't commit the murders, is that your stance?

Review previous threads (links in the OP). There is a wealth of info, if you are interested.

Do I know whether or not he is guilty? No.

Do I believe he is guilty? No.

I've looked over much of the info relating to the case, and there is far too much that casts doubts on his conviction... to his being guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

I saw the prosecutor's case. Now if he wasn't a thug, I might be swayed but it's not like he was an innocent man caught up in a crime of passion. He founded the Crips. He was a violent criminal both outside and inside the prison. To say that he's innocent is a stretch. He used the shotgun that was registered to him. He killed four innocent people (that we know of), he threatened the jury in his case. He planned on escaping and killing the bus driver. I've seen the facts. Are you denying all that took place? Have you read the prosecutor's case for the death penalty, it's pretty damning.

Would you let him around your kids or your significant other? I don't think so. There's a lot of people railroaded by the justice system, of that I have no doubt. Tookie isn't one of them.

Having said that, give him LWOP. Simply because the death penalty is wrong. I don't know if it's a deterrence or not. I don't care. I do know that you can't take it back if they're wrong. I don't think the state should be in the death business. For the same reason I don't support this war.

Please clarify... are you basing what you will/will not believe in Stan Tookie Williams' case based on your believing that he is/was a "thug" ("Now if he wasn't a thug, I might be swayed")? Isn't that being prejudiced?

I'm glad that we can agree on clemency (life w/o parole)

I would be very careful about calling someone prejudiced.

Is he the co-founder of the Sierra Club or the ACLU? No, he's the co-founder of the crips. An extremely violent gang involved in numerous crimes including drug dealing, robbery and murder. He IS a thug. Just like members of the mafia are thugs. Are you saying he's NOT a thug? Please clarify that for me.

I can't believe people are actually apologists for this thug. Why is this murderer being held up as some kind of saint? He brutally killed four people that we know of. Why is he such a saint? Now Mumia, yes, he was set up and should be set free. If not that, then a trial of his PEERS, so he can get the truth out and what is left of his life back. Tookie is no such political prisoner.

"Now if he wasn't a thug, I might be swayed"

I am not stating that you are prejudiced; I am questioning your statement; perhaps I could have phrased it better. It sounds like a prejudiced statement. It sounds like you are basing your willingness to "be swayed" on your stating that he is a thug.


prejudice
Main Entry: 1prej·u·dice
Pronunciation: 'pre-j&-d&s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Latin praejudicium previous judgment, damage, from prae- + judicium judgment -- more at JUDICIAL
1 : injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

Thank you for clearing that up.

Do I think it's possible for someone to change, to redeem themselves, yes. Nevertheless, he did kill four people that we know of. It is also not unheard of for someone in his situation to try and scam their way out of their punishment by appearing to become religious, write books or other ways to appear to have changed for the better. I know I would. Only God and Tookie know for sure if he's changed.

Like I said, I have no problem with them commuting his sentence (and every other death sentence in America). We are no better than him if we put him to death. Letting him out would be another thing entirely and it's not unheard of to see people with a LWOP sentence get out. I'd hate to see him freed by a well-meaning governor. No, not Arnold. He cold bloodedly murdered four people that we know of so he needs to spend the rest of his life behind bars-period.

"Now if he wasn't a thug, I might be swayed" You didn't address whether or not you agree that it seemed to be a prejudiced statement.

Since you "might be swayed" "if he wasn't a thug", would you "be swayed" if he was a fine upstanding white middle class surburban murderer?

prejudice
Main Entry: 1prej·u·dice
Pronunciation: 'pre-j&-d&s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Latin praejudicium previous judgment, damage, from prae- + judicium judgment -- more at JUDICIAL
1 : injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics


You also say that you "saw the prosecutor's case." Are you basing your opinion solely on the prosecutor's case, rather than all of the facts? If so... the prosecutor is a racist who used racist tactics during the trial... why would you so completely accept only his presentation of the case (that is, if that is what you are doing)? Why are you so certain that "He brutally killed four people that we know of."? Is it because of the facts of the case (all of the facts), or because of who he is/was ("a thug")?

Even though you strongly believe that he is guilty, it sounds like you support clemency. I do appreciate that. Please consider contacting Schwarzenegger w/your views.

Phone: 916-445-2841

Email: governor@governor.ca.gov

FAX: 916-445-4633

snail mail address:
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814

Quit playing the race card for poor Tookie, it's dishonest. Leave out the white part and your suburban straw man is just another murdering thug. Whether he's white is irrelevant. I zero in on the murderer part.

It's is extremely disturbing to see otherwise normal people crying for this THUG. You all are trying to make him out to be Mother Theresa. I know among the Tookie groupies (great name, very succinct) that you people want to forget about the 4 dead victims. Last I checked, he did start the crips. It's his handwriting on those letters where he wants to kill the prison bus driver. The shotgun was registered to Tookie. I'm sorry if I don't buy your side's argument. I really like how posters here try to bring up the all white jury. You people know full well that isn't the case. Tookie is not some innocent inner city kid who is stuck in a bad situation. He's a seasoned thug who preys on those kind of people.

Commute his sentence to LWOP and lets move on to people that were convicted by an all white jury. People who really are victims of their circumstance. Not poor Tookie.

The man he is today is not the man that he was 25 years ago.

too bad his victims didn't have a chance to be someone all these years later.

But we're not supposed to think or talk about the victims, I guess.

The defendant is the victim in the minds of some here.

Hmmm, what is it that the Jesus said about 'peacemakers'?

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God." - Matthew 5: 9


And about judging?

"Judge not, and ye shall not be judged. Condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned. Forgive, and ye shall be forgiven." - Luke 6: 37


And, of course, there's...

So when they continued asking Him, He lifted Himself up and said unto them, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." - John 8: 7

(Lots of stones being cast on this thread.)

California Prepares to Execute Tookie Williams - Countdown to a Legal Lynching
October 12, 2005
By Phil Gasper

http://traprockpeace.org/phil_gasper_blog/index.php/2005/11/01/california-prepares-to-execute-tookie-williams-countdown-to-a-legal-lynching
-snip-

Last February, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals turned down Stan’s request for a new hearing by a vote of 15 to 9. But the minority issued a blistering dissent, condemning the “blatant, race-based jury selection” in Williams’ original trial.

-snip-

The main evidence against Stan was the testimony of jailhouse informants who claimed that he had confessed to them. All of these “witnesses” were facing serious felony charges and had strong motivations to make a deal with the police to reduce their own sentences. In fact, in its 2002 ruling, the Ninth Circuit admitted that these informants had “less-than-clean backgrounds and incentives to lie in order to obtain leniency from the state in either charging or sentencing.”

-snip-

None of the physical evidence found at the two crime scenes, including fingerprints and a boot print, matched Stan. A witnesses description of a person seen leaving the scene of one of the crimes did not fit him either. A shotgun shell supposedly matched a weapon he had bought several years earlier, but that gun was in the possession of a couple that was also facing serious felony charges. After they claimed that Stan had confessed to them, however, the investigation against them was dropped.

-snip-

Despite the fact that (prosecutor) Martin was later censured twice by the California Supreme Court for his racist practices, which led to death sentences in two of the cases he prosecuted being overturned, and despite the fact that the ACLU, the NAACP, the Mexican American Legal Defense & Educational Fund and numerous other groups, filed an amicus brief on Stan’s behalf, the Ninth Circuit has twice rejected the claim that his constitutional rights were violated. Now the Supreme Court has upheld these decisions.

-snip-

***

(PLEASE read all of this important article!)

Phil Gasper is Professor of Philosophy at Notre Dame de Namur University in California and a member of the Campaign to End the Death Penalty. He can be reached at pgasper@ndnu.edu


thank you!


peace!

*edit to fix link

Along with learning about all of the facts surrounding the case.

Looking into the facts provides that info.

Think of all the killings that WON"T happen, due to this man's efforts!

What about the thousands of deaths because of this man's efforts? Deaths that are occuring each and every day.

Thank you for continuing to bring this to the forefront.

1) He is innocent of the murders.

2) Even if he isnt innocent, then he has turned his life around.

3) Even If he didnt turn his life around, he has saved kids from emulating what he didnt do.

4) Even If he didnt save kids, well the death penality is wrong anyway.

5) Even if the death penality isnt wrong, if we don't save Tookie, then the crips will rise up, riot and kill many people in LA. Because Tookie is right about gang life rioting and killing being wrong.

6) And if you still don't agree, then Im putting you on ignore!

7) If putting you on ignore doesnt work, and the thread gets to much anti-tookie posts, we'll just have the thread locked and start a new one like we've done 3 times already.

It's unbelievable that people would fall for his con game. He hasn't been working "two decades" against gangs. The kids' books he allegedly wrote started 10 years ago. And this whole redemption bullshit started after all his other ploys failed. The threatening witnesses failed, the trying to play himself off as retarded failed and the escape plot failed. And the whole time, even up until now, he has maintained his leadership position in the Crips. These people will do anything to garner sympathy and attempt to save their lives. To try to portray themselves as some sort of misunderstood victim of the courts is common. Everyone puts on their best face in prison. This dude is a monster of the worst sort, has no sympathy for his victims, laughed over their corpses and won't even admit he did it. His sentence is just, the punishment right.

Tookie is a mass murderer and doesn't deserve clemency.

get a fair, unprejudiced trial by a jury of his peers.

i would argue your next 'facts,' but then, all this just puts it back to justice being best served by his getting that fair trial, after all.


peace

He got a fair trial, how do you think he didn't? They didn't even start playing this racial bullshit until just recently. Why wasn't the jury a problem back when he was trying to say he was retarded? Can't you see these are the desperate ploys of a con man?

Also do you know anything about the Crips? I study them as a hobby. Tookie killed far more people than just the 4 he was convicted of, he sent his minions out to murder for him on many occasions and indirectly killed thousands more by starting the gang to begin with.

This is not a good guy, he doesn't deserve your time and effort. He would kill you just as soon as look at you if you were in his way and then he'd laugh at your death agonies.

I suppose you'll be trying to save Joseph Smith next. After he writes a few "good touch/bad touch" books for kids about pedophilia.

I just can't understand why good people would waste time trying to spare a mass murdering scumbag.

posting misinformation about this defendant and the case, while totally ignoring the facts of the trial and the appeals.

This is a propaganda campaign, nothing more. Justice will be served on December 13th.

Blood Feast: The Celebration of Ritual Murder in America
by Mike Whitney

A society that is willing to intentionally kill one of its own people is a society that is willing to accept barbarism as it guiding principle. There’s no middle ground on capital punishment. When one offers their moral support to the practice, they are participating directly in the ritual murder of another human being.

<snip>

This model exposes the true origins of the state and suggests the parameters under which it may legitimately operate. And, although the state may be an expression of the public will, it is never more than a crude invention to assure one’s safety in a potentially threatening environment. Such a device has no authority beyond its limited powers to protect and provide for its people.

To allow the state the absolute power over life and death is to elevate its significance above those it is created to serve. Capital punishment is a form state worship; elevating the authority of government above the principles that legitimize its existence. It is the “cart before the horse”.

Whenever men are murdered by the state in the name of capital punishment, it is the state that is glorified; it is the state that is deified; it is the state that is victorious. And, it is the freedom of every individual that is sacrificed.

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Dec05/Whitney1203.htm

So Tookie Williams gets gassed, and he will, what then? Who next? More poverty. More disparity. More cruise missiles. More obese children. More smackdowns of children all in a row. More ignorance. More authoritarianism and punitive, dogmatic schooling. More fast food. More lead paint for the poor. Who's next in America's blood ritual? Who will score the next touchdown? Who will be fed to the lions of industrial commerce? Who will the next child of Falluja be to be blown to bits by the thirsty war machine? Tookie Williams must die, he must be sacrificed along with the uninsured. Along with the elderly and infirmed. As well as the inefficient. As well as those who cannot fill in the dots with their #2 pencils.
Tookie Williams must be sacrificed at the alter of corporal punishment machine which demands unthinking allegiance to its madness and incessant exploitation. Tookie Williams is a nobody. And so am I.

draws the connections of the danger we face, on every level.

"Such a device has no authority beyond its limited powers to protect and provide for its people."
its very purpose, and then...

New Oleans.

may those whose "proof" of Stanley Tookie Williams' guilt is based entirely on the word of the state, please hear what this says. it is for ALL of our sakes that we must get that state back to serving instead of conquering.

no more blood feast, before that taste for blood is all that exists! or is it already, for the state?

thank you for this, Clara T!


peace and solidarity!

Especially the parts comparing defendant Williams's plight to that of the uninsured, elderly and infirm.

That's right, people. A multiple murderer is in the same moral standing as those without health insurance, and the elderly and sick.

Great points, huh?

We're heading into that "Michael Jackson on trial is equal to the Holocaust" territory.

The Tookie Groupies expect the rest of us to be duped by their propaganda. And if you don't buy in to what Mike Farrell or Jamie Foxx say, you're just a vengeful racist.

So much for open-minded debate here.

you believe that any of them would actually come out to support Stan without first doing plenty of checking of facts?!

that you, of course, know better than:

Desmond Tutu, Mario Cuomo, Alfre Woodard, Susan Sarandon, Tim Robbins, Danny Glover, Jesse Jackson, Bianca Jagger, Snoop Dogg (a fellow former Crip), Anjelica Huston, Tom Hayden, 100+ Nobel Laureates, peace & justice activists, the religious community, community activists, anti-gang activists...

these more than 200 "Educators for Tookie":

More than 200 educators have signed on to a letter urging California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger to grant clemency to death row prisoner Stanley Tookie Williams. A delegation of signors will deliver the "Educators for Tookie" letter to Gov. Schwarzenegger's office in Sacramento on Wednesday, December 7, the day before Stanley Tookie Williams' clemency hearing. The delegation will include Professor Philip Gasper who initiated this effort and has nominated Stanley Tookie Williams for the Nobel Peace Prize.

(from their letter to the governor):

-snip-

From the confines of his tiny nine-by-four-foot cell, Williams has written nine books for children, attempting to de-romanticize gangs, crime and prison. One of them, Life in Prison, has received two national book honors, including an award from the American Library Association. It has been used in schools, libraries, juvenile correctional facilities and prisons throughout the United States and, indeed, around the world. Mr. Williams has also recorded anti-gang public service announcements for radio that have aired on stations across the United States.

More than 70,000 people have sent emails to Mr. Williams’ web site, expressing appreciation for his work, with many saying they have opted not to join gangs or have withdrawn from gang membership as a result of reading his books or hearing his voice.

-snip-

***

are you CAPABLE of being wrong?

rather, are you capable of even considering that you might be wrong?

if you are able to consider that, please at least try to look for why we all are trying so very hard to reach people, you, on this.


thank you

that they are capable of being wrong or there will never be justice only state sanctioned executions. :(

people letting the state tell them, and believing it merely BECAUSE it IS the state!

that's what gets me about their using the prosecutor's arguments. he's been proven to have, and sanctioned because of, racist attitudes and making racist allusions and distortions. but so many just quote him like he's unimpeachable, because, and only because, he is the government.

that is how tyranny happens.


peace and solidarity!

I've been following this subject on several thread here and because i'm a newb, have kept silent because I didn't want to be taken the wrong way.

Now to the cause of my confusion. I have read several allegations about racism about the prosecutor's office. I don't see how this has any bearing on the case. Racism in itself is wrong, but the prosecutor only tried the case, presenting the evidence they had. It was the jury who convicted Tookie Williams. As it took all twelve jurist to decide the verdict, wouldn't the whole jury have to be racist, including the minority members?

letting the state - a blatantly bigotted prosecutor!! - tell them what they think.

i don't see much indication they have the courage to really look at the facts. just parrot the *proven-racist* authority.

sigh...

thank you for your thoughts on this, auntAgonist!


peace and solidarity!

Apparently Tookie isnt, since he won't even apologize.

Go here: http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

There you will find trial evidence (and photos of items in evidence), information about the numerous appeals before various courts, information about this defendant's behavior while incarcerated, and rebuttals to some of the myths and deliberate misinformation posted around this site and others (example: the defendant was tried by an all-white jury = False).

Then we wouldn't even need to have these discussions about whether one convict is more deserving of commutation or pardon than another. Life without parole takes care of deterrence and punishment; killing the perp is mere vengeance and does nothing to bring back the victims.

with that broad focus. while we work to abolish the death penalty, constantly, we can not stop working to stop individual executions. they are happening so fast now that most efforts must go to those whose convictions present the most serious questions.

Mr Williams' case also represents the issues of prison and rehabilitation. Governor Schwarzenegger says that he beieves in rehabilitation. let us hope he truly does.

do you work in DP abolition?
if not, have you looked into the excellent organizations posted above on this thread?


peace and solidarity!

as much as I should because Alaska thankfully doesn't have one. The judges up here just give the most heinous murderers two or three life sentences to make sure they'll never see the light of day, and that's the last we hear of them. I'm perfectly okay with that.

I recall vividly a couple DP cases. Federally funded of course.

If they break the Federal Laws they can be sentenced to death in Federal Court.

I've been here since 1975 and remember some pretty serious crimes -- Bad Bob Hansen, the Baker, for one, comes to mind (serial rapist/murderer responsible for dozens of dead women) -- but I don't remember anyone being put to death, but then I haven't worked much in the federal system. Cases I worked on were all state cases.

A car cuts of another, the car that was cut off took out a gun and killed the passenger - Driver of the car with dead passenger is going to testify and the friends of the shooter from car send him a bomb. It killed his wife I believe. It happened late 80's.

I didn't realize that was a federal case, but of course it would be because of the bomb in the mail. Wow, are those guys on death row? I didn't realize that. My daughter went to school with Gustafson.

Here's a little something about that case I lifted out of an anti-death penalty article.

Curtner, 56, is a 17-year Alaskan who works as the federal public defender for the state. He came to Alaska in part because the state doesn't have the death penalty, but he has dealt with two federal capital cases here. He represented Raymond Cheely in the Eklutna mail bombing case, which ended up being tried as a nondeath-penalty case with Cheely sentenced to life in prison. The other case was resolved through a plea bargain after Abram Walter pleaded guilty to killing the postmistress in Ruby.

I accidently cut someone off in the same area. Yeesh. I followed the case and use it as a cautionary tale.

in mass were pretty sure we would never have a DP again, but mitt (gov) is all out to get one back.

hang on to that difference there!

one way for people whose states don't have DP to make a difference is to sign up at one or more of those orgs, and participate in action alerts to other parts of the country, the world, in fact.


peace and solidarity!

How is it justice for the state to take a life in revenge for other lives taken?

...multiple murders. In fact, it is unjust that it has been delayed for 25+ years.

The death penalty is vengeance, not justice.

And I am also of the thought that life in prison is a far worse punishment...otherwise we wouldn't be placing our worst offenders on suicide watches. It makes no sense.

We put death row inmates on suicide watch. Why? Because we don't want to be cheated out of our revenge.

:hi: MrsG

as it also ensures that the individual will have no control over their life. It must be verified that the State is in control and will determine the ultimate fate-
Of Us All.

:hi:

Period.

It what way is it justice, Walt?

allowed to exist in human society, including the society formed in prison.

It's a question of the good of society versus a single person wh has committed such a crime. Justice demands these criminal be put to death.

Vengeance does not ever enter into it because the victim NEVER deals out the sentence.

There are crimes so heinous that the perpetrators can no longer be allowed to exist in human society, including the society formed in prison.

And who the fuck gets to decide that? You? George Bush? Some bodybuilder installed as the governor of California?

Complete crock of shit.

Notice that he has been on death row for over 20 years, and Democratic governors have also refused to reduce the sentence. Democratic governors have also LET IT STAND.

that I don't give two shits that Democratic governors have let it stand. Dems can be just as wrong on the death penalty as Republicans, as we see on DU lately.

If you don't like it, change the constitution. Until then, the Death Penalty is an acceptable form of justice in this nation for especially heinous crimes deemed so by society.

I'll further mention, roughly two thirds of our society agrees with me. Good luck on that amendment thingie.

The Tookie Groupies are tiresome to read.

Remember their central point: Tookie is the real victim.

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress; provided that no amendment which may be made prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any manner affect the first and fourth clauses in the ninth section of the first article; and that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate.

Seeing as how TWO-THIRDS of this nation agree that the Death Penalty is JUSTIFIED, you'll change nothing.

But keep pushing this evil assed, self serving, violent, mass murdering PIECE OF SHIT MASQUERADING AS A HUMAN BEING as your poster-boy for the anti-DP movement and maybe we'll get that number up to THREE-FOURTHS!

But keep pushing this evil assed, self serving, violent, mass murdering PIECE OF SHIT MASQUERADING AS A HUMAN BEING as your poster-boy for the anti-DP movement and maybe we'll get that number up to THREE-FOURTHS!

Nope, the death penalty has nothing to do with vengeance. Nothing at all.

facts here.

This person is just looking for a flame war. My posts of the last three or so days speak for themselves and there are plenty of serious people on the other side of this to debate with. I'm done with this flame warrior.

This is the system we have decided upon based on our system of representative government. If people disagree (and many do) they are free to change it through the same political process.

Until then, we'll have justice.

This is the system we have decided upon based on our system of representative government.

So was slavery until those who disagreed changed it through the same political process. :thumbsup:

Innocent victims of slavery are on the same moral level as murderers?

You know, I think I'll have to call bullshit on your strawman. Nice try. Do you have anything of substance to add to this discussion?

n/t.

abuse of power occurred in this case. Thanks.

make a right. Why do "we" as in, We the People, have the power to decide who lives or dies....?

Why aren't you out there stomping for the many other convicted murderers (of heinous crimes) to be put to death? I'll never get the pick and choose mentallity...that's abuse of power.

the others because I am simply RESPONDING to those here who do not believe in delivering justice to this defendant's victims and families.

Talk about selective! Can you point me to your posts about the other people on death row? Why just this defendant? Because Mike Farrell and Jamie Foxx are involved? THAT is the selective, pick-and-choose mentality you describe.

I see they present no evidence the state abused it's power in Mr. Williams case.

I guess that leaves emotional conjectures as rock solid reasons to make him a newly minted saint for Hollywood elites to rally around to fill their vacuous lives with meaning

Innocent victims of slavery are on the same moral level as murderers?

Your words, not mine. In fact, I'll clarify for the reading impaired - no, victims of slavery are not on the same moral level as murderers. Nice try, indeed.

Your point was that the death penalty is currently the law of the land by popular acclaim. My point is that slavery once was as well. That didn't make it morally right, or just.

Do you have any evidence that slavery is comparable to someone being imprisoned after a trial and numerous hearings?

Every single slave was an INNOCENT human being, in terms of why they were a slave. They were not brought here as a result of a deliberative process, or as any type of punishment for past acts. That was wrong, regardless of the political will.

If you want to use slavery as an example, give me a reason to believe it's analogous in any way.

Slavery and the death penalty are both acts of law. Both have been, at times, sanctioned by the people of many nations. Both have also been opposed by people of many nations. Both are acts subject to moral scrutiny.

The similarity, as of this date, ends there. There is no implied similarity between innocent and guilty, much as you strain to put those words in my mouth.

Your post implied a sort of blessing on the death penalty because people have supported it. My point is that popular support does not equal moral justice.

If you are going to ask "says who?" and "who the fuck gets to decide that?" you should expect an answer that explains how the political process works.

You want to play strawman analogy games? Here's one for you. I'll refuse to pay my taxes and when a judge asks me why I disobey the law, I will tell him, "Hey, the law used to say slavery was okay, and it wasn't!"

Please. Stay on topic here.

You don't like the death penalty? Fine. That's your right. I'll stand on the side of justice.

You want to play strawman analogy games? Here's one for you. I'll refuse to pay my taxes and when a judge asks me why I disobey the law, I will tell him, "Hey, the law used to say slavery was okay, and it wasn't!"

That doesn't make any sense. Keep squirming.

I'll stand on the side of justice.

And I'll ask again - how does the killing of a convict by the state bring about justice?

capable of following along here. YOU brought up analogies, in terms of the law being sufficient to decide what is right/wrong. I gave you another example. And you ran from it. Predictably.

I've answered your question at least twice already. You keep asking it. You're doing the same to Walt. What you're doing is asking for an opinion, then declaring the opinion "wrong." I have discussions like this with my six-year-old niece.

Please try to read and comprehend the posts. Then try to come up with a shred of substance for your own opinion. If there is any to be presented.

I do appreciate your having shown where the emotion lies, though. Walt's done an even better job of that.

When someone replaces knowledge of the political/judicial system with compassion for four-time murderers, well, it's obvious.

I'm afraid you'll have to find someone else to engage you in your quest for a flame war, friend. I'd rather debate this with someone who has knowledge of the case and the system.

I like to think of it as an interest in justice, but call it what you will.

it's all about justice.

The reason we have a Death Penalty is because of the fact that there are some people who will commit a crime so heinous, the only just thing to do is remove them forever from every possible level of human society, including prison.

The only way to accomplish that justice is by putting criminals this heinous to death.

the only just thing to do is remove them forever from every possible level of human society, including prison.

Why is that so?

That's why.

C'mon, Walt - quit dancing around.

and am then told I'm dacing around?

:eyes:

I've plainly answered the question. Your refusal to accept it speaks volumes.

in reason - all I see is appeals to the heinousness of crimes. I'll ask again what I ask you elsewhere. Do *you* get to decide what crime is "heinous" enough to deserve death?

SHEESH!

WTF don't you get about representative democracy?

A supermajority in this nation supports the idea that the death penalty is justified for heinous crimes. Each state, based upon the legislation passed by the representatives of the people, sets the standard to what is a heinous enough crime for the death penalty to be justified.

Did you EVER take a Civics class in junior high school????

WTF don't you get about representative democracy?

I understand it quite well, thanks. Doesn't mean that it always results in the good.

Each state, based upon the legislation passed by the representatives of the people, sets the standard to what is a heinous enough crime for the death penalty to be justified.

And, curiously enough, not all states even *have* the dp.

Did you EVER take a Civics class in junior high school????

I've taught them. The will of the people does not always equal justice, young grasshopper.

case!

He is avoiding the religious aspect of your question, as it is impossible to show any proof of.

You are asking what ULTIMATE authority makes the DP moral for humans to administer. Perhaps you should take that particular question to the Religion/Theology forum.

I'm agnostic and steadfastly believe that religion has no place in public law - the question isn't religious. The fact that we're governed by our own fallible selves only supports my argument.

There are only two possible answers.

1. Humans authorize it and right and wrong are determined by society. There is no ultimate standard that can be said to be always right, or always wrong. It becomes a question of what is convenient at the time.

2. God makes certain rules that are ALWAYS right and human actions are right or wrong as measured by that standard.

If you accept #1, then society has spoken and it is right according to the constitution. If you accept #2, then go to the R/T forum.

If you accept #1, then society has spoken and it is right according to the constitution.

Thus my slavery analogy earlier. Society spoke in favor of slavery early in our history. It may have been right according to the constitution, but did it make it *right*?

Notice exactly what you said: "It may have been right according to the constitution, but did it make it *right*?"

You even emphasized "right", which I put into bold font. That kind of right deals with question two - ultimate right and wrong. It is a religious question.

I would deny that.

Serious question.

If some one is about to attack me, and I shoot them, I have hurt them. What makes it right?

If some one annoys me by the way the exist, and I kill them, what makes it wrong?

In each case, there is an appeal to a Law the we believe that all humans are supposed to know and obey. If we don't believe that, then we must abandon the concept of morality and admit that laws are merely items of convenience for the ruling group.

When you emphasized "right" you put it in R/T terms.

If some one is about to attack me, and I shoot them, I have hurt them. What makes it right?

Your right to protect yourself. Had one of Williams' victims shot him (ed: during the commission of the crime), I wouldn't protest the fact.

No on said that living in an advanced society under laws would be easy.

If some one annoys me by the way the exist, and I kill them, what makes it wrong?

They present no threat to your continued existence.

In each case, there is an appeal to a Law the we believe that all humans are supposed to know and obey.

Sure. That Law, however, doesn't depend on a deity.

When you emphasized "right" you put it in R/T terms.

Not really, but suppose it did. Religious topics get discussed in GD all the time, and in fact are at this moment. So let's discuss it here instead of pretending that any comment of mine has to be banished to another forum.

"Thou shalt not kill."

Comments?

Sure. That Law, however, doesn't depend on a deity. Then what does it depend upon? If you chose any other source I can ask what defines the goal that you seek as good?

"Thou shalt not kill"

Which religious system are we going to go by? That question itself is a question of Faith. Some religions would not allow even self-defense. My faith happens to be Christian, Assembly of God demonination to be exact. Since you refer to one of the commandments, I conclude that you want to base the discussion on the Christian Bible. In any case, I am not very competent in the tenents of non-Christian religions.

The English language Bible is a translation of previous Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew Scripture. Correct translation is: "Thou shalt not murder". The Hebrew word used is "ratsah" which means an unlawful killing. "Harag" is the word that would be used for generalized killing. In the rest of the Old Testament Law there are laws for when killing by an individual is justified, and when it must be done by "the people" which we could call today - the state. In the New Testament the state is given authority of the sword to use it to remove evildoers. War is justified as self-defense on a large scale - or the war is not justified.

Let's make it Christianity, since we're both most familiar with that.

In the New Testament the state is given authority of the sword to use it to remove evildoers.

Text? I'm not up on my Hebrew, but I'll match you for the Greek. :)

You know, of course, that I'm going to use Paul against Paul. Romans is fun.

Talk to you tomorrow.

the Tookie Groupies, but they are obviously not interested in the victims or delivering justice for the victims of heinous crimes.

This is just a major PR stunt.

Friend, I've been called worse here.

Perhaps you'll answer me since Walt can't - how is the death penalty justice? Isn't it just vengeance?

Vengeance would be someone taking measures outside the law, without the benefit of a trier of fact examing the evidence.

The defendant in this case was tried and had numerous appeals, all of which come to the same conclusion as the original jury.

Huge difference between a deliberative legal process and someone taking measures into their own hands without giving the accused a chance to face the charges.

Vengeance would be someone taking measures outside the law, without the benefit of a trier of fact examing the evidence.

That's vigilantism, not vengeance. Vengeance can easily exist within structured environments.

I gave it to you. I am telling you that I equate the two.

The legal system isn't about vengeance. That's why we haven't seen anyone provide evidence for that argument.

You should read this case and view the evidence so you can make up your own mind. Want the link?

I am telling you that I equate the two.

Then you have a problem with the language. I might be able to help were you a middle schooler in my classroom, but since you're not, I guess I'll just try to keep us as you rewrite the dictionary to suit your purposes.

The legal system isn't about vengeance.

It certainly shouldn't be.

You should read this case and view the evidence so you can make up your own mind. Want the link?

No. I've read about the case. I'm not arguing Williams' innocence, but you're trying to play the emotion factor.

The death penalty is abhorrent and has no place in a civilized society.

based on law.

You can call my arguments emotional. That's fine. But I think if you remove emotion from this, your argument goes right where it should: flushed. You have no basis for your belief other than an emotional, Save Tookie stance.

You've read "about" the case, huh? Not interested in the facts, I guess, just what Jamie Foxx tells a reporter to tell you?

You have no basis for your belief other than an emotional, Save Tookie stance.

Actually, I do. I don't believe that the death penalty is ever just, in any case. I base that on my belief that all killing is wrong.

Not interested in the facts, I guess, just what Jamie Foxx tells a reporter to tell you?

How the hell does Jamie Foxx come into this? Is it a racial thing for you?

Not a racial thing. I've used Mike Farrel in other posts. He's one of the other celebs directing this PR stunt. And I support the execution of white people, Hispanics, Asians...doesn't matter. IF they commit a heinous crime and are convicted and receive appeals, then they should face the consequences.

Nice try on the race card.

From that, and other posts, it's obvious you are just looking for a flame war. You ask, repeatedly, how? how? how? and when we answer you ask again. Strange for an alleged teacher.

As for your belief about why the DP is wrong, fine, we disagree. Who could have predicted that? I'll continue to support justice for the victims, you continue to plead for the lives of the murderers. Then both sides will have their say.

Seemed the obvious question. :shrug:

You ask, repeatedly, how? how? how? and when we answer you ask again.

The answers tend to be the same ones that engendered the questions in the first place. That's not my problem.

I'll continue to support justice for the victims

You're going to love this one: How? How does the death penalty provide justice for the victims?

you continue to plead for the lives of the murderers

There's the emotion again.

Then both sides will have their say.

I suppose.

which just happens to be shared with a supermajority of the nation.

You are 100% correct. Tookie is a PR machine with willing dupes like Mike Farrel and Jaimie Foxx. There are people on death row who ARE victims of racism, victims of a society that wants nothing to do with them. Tookie had a word for people like that, prey. I can't believe people actually are offended that I called poor Tookie a thug. There's a word for Tookie's victims too, it's called DEAD.

I despise the death penalty but Tookie's case isn't the one to shine light on the numerous wrongs of the death penalty and indeed, on justice in this country. Give him LWOP, throw away the key and force him to make little rocks out of big ones. Even people who hate the death penalty are having a hard time with the poor Tookie groupies.

based on facts but are instead based on their felt intuition of good and evil.

If someone favors capital punishment because they think it's more cost efficient, you can disprove that with facts.

If someone favors capital punishment because they think it's fairly applied, you can disprove that with facts which show that alleged criminals who receive the death penalty are disproportionately non-white, male, and poor when compared to others who committed similar crimes but have a different racial, gender, or economic profile. You can also show them that the death penalty is disproportionately assigned to those who commit crimes against whites, females, and the less poor.

If someone favors capital punishment because they wrongly doubt that it leads the the state execution of the wrongly accused with quite alarming frequency, you can show them facts to disprove that misperception.

But when someone favors capital punishment because they have simply chosen to define justice as including capital punishment, you cannot offer them facts to realign their values. You are better off discussing Bushisms, or Fitzmas wishes, or cleverly derisive nicknames for Republicans, or any number of other topics you might possibly agree about.

but it's not the first windmill against which I've tilted on DU. :)

kudos

More kudos!