My Rant on America's Blood Ritual- After Tookie Who's Next?

So Tookie Williams gets gassed, and he will, what then? Who next? More poverty. More disparity. More cruise missiles. More obesity. More smackdowns of the little children seated all in a row. More candy and whiskey in the Land of Red Apples. More authoritarianism and punitive, dogmatic schooling. More Ignorance. More fast food. More lead paint for the poor. Who's next in America's blood ritual? Who will score the next touchdown? Who will be fed to the lions of industrial commerce? Who will the next child of Falluja be to be blown to bits by the thirsty war machine? Tookie Williams must die, he must be sacrificed along with the uninsured. Along with the elderly and infirmed. As well as the inefficient. As well as those who cannot fill in the dots with their #2 pencils.
Tookie Williams must be sacrificed at the alter of the corporal punishment machine which demands our unthinking allegiance to its madness and incessant exploitation. Tookie Williams is a nobody. And so am I.

So we celebrate America's Blood Ritual on another day in a thousand ways and
I quietly, humbly, ask of you dear poster behind the cyber screen- Who is next to die? Is it you? Is it me?

Why do we put people in cages? Why do we have gated communities? Why do we have borders? Why are the children poisoned by industrial agribusiness and industrial schooling? Why are the old shuffled off into "nursing" homes? Why are the forests clearcut?
Do we think the death penalty is outside these connections? Do we separate from it all and reduce this barbaric act from our daily lives? from the consumer-producer maw that chews up the prairie lands for suburbia. Take a look around and you'll see one thing is hitched to the other.

A society that is willing to intentionally kill one of its own people is a society that is willing to accept barbarism as it guiding principle. There’s no middle ground on capital punishment. When one offers their moral support to the practice, they are participating directly in the ritual murder of another human being.

<snip>

This model exposes the true origins of the state and suggests the parameters under which it may legitimately operate. And, although the state may be an expression of the public will, it is never more than a crude invention to assure one’s safety in a potentially threatening environment. Such a device has no authority beyond its limited powers to protect and provide for its people.

To allow the state the absolute power over life and death is to elevate its significance above those it is created to serve. Capital punishment is a form state worship; elevating the authority of government above the principles that legitimize its existence. It is the “cart before the horse”.

Whenever men are murdered by the state in the name of capital punishment, it is the state that is glorified; it is the state that is deified; it is the state that is victorious. And, it is the freedom of every individual that is sacrificed.

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Dec05/Whitney1203.htm

You ask, "Why do we put people in cages?"

I understand you are against the death penalty, fine. But if you don't see reason to put people in "cages" then what would you suggest we do with violent criminals?

The intentional harm caused by agribusiness, etc. is focused on innocent victims. Tookie Williams is not an innocent victim -- in fact, he killed four innocent victims himself and is indirectly responsible for many more murders via the Crips.

that you speak of is precisely about why we have the Tookie Williams' and so many other violent criminals. The systemic violence that is industrial society be it the way we mine the soils or create wage slaves or lop off mountain tops which then destroy communities where people live(d) who then are displaced who then become destitute who then get involved in _____ or resort to____ it just goes on.

Don't you see how widespread this is? Do you not see the similarities between_____ all of it?

Can you get to that?

I am definitely not confusing the issues. I am looking at the roots rather than attempting to lop off branches from this diseased tree.

The four people he killed had absolutely nothing to do with his socio-economic status.

There are millions of people equally destitute who didn't resort to killing people, let alone people who had nothing to do with their condition in the first place.

Much more complex than Tookie or even the morality of the death penalty. Again I want to assert that I am no fan or groupie of Tookie or consider anyone a hero or martyr. What I am interested in is a deeper approach to altering these horrors, and that means the murders and the death penalty, than the current fashion. The way of thinking at present, as these discusssions go back and forth, simply isn't working. the solution? Another way. So let us look more deeply at IT ALL.

As a material fact most incarcerated share one trait-poverty.

Sorry but this is inequality, by design. How then are kids from poorly funded schools supposed to "compete" with kids from places like beverly hills? Sure, some (the exceptions) will be able to compete, but many, perhaps most, won't. We, our society, places tremendous burdens on and has tremendous expectations of those at the bottom of the barrel. Meanwhile people like Bush barely pass at places like Harvard and Yale, and then are handed everything to them, including the office of president. and to add insult to injury, the irony of someone like him whining about "quotas" barely get a mention in our so-called press.

Teen age villagers from Afghanistan who are now being held in indefinite detention in violation of all law and codes of civilized conduct don't have much of a choice about anything. What choice? Don't be born Afghani? To one degree or another all of our "choices" are very tightly restricted, and those restrictions serve to buttress and defend wealth and power in the hands of the few, often immorally and illegally obtained.

Sure we have a choice. Grovel and suffer, keep silent and invisible - or else. Some choice.

No one here disputes the connection between poverty and crime/punishment, or the disparity between rich and poor, or the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few. But what does that have to do with Tookie's crimes?

The fact is Tookie killed four innocent people in cold blood. And nothing, especially not his station in life, excuses that.

as an answer to your contradictory first paragraph/question. Re-read it and you'll have answered yourself.

I am quite clear on the issues. That is why I do not entirely focus on the individual but look at it in the broader context.

Think about what you said "No one here disputes the connection between poverty and crime/punishment... But what does that have to do with Tookie's (my add: an impoverished man) crimes?

The death penalty is a by-product, a symptom, a very extreme example of a very deep cultural disease.

Must get rest now.

Mercy is not the language of our times.

What I'm disputing is using his station as an excuse to kill innocent people.

And I hardly think applying the death penalty to a guilty murderer can in any way be connected to the far-reaching examples you gave in earlier posts, broad context or not.

Mercy wasn't Tookie's language either. If he wants mercy now, he should have thought about showing mercy to the four people he killed.

support state executions. It's one of the few clear cut stands I can honestly say I hold.

(ed for clarity)

He is a cold blooded killer.


If you murdered four people in cold blood, yeah, maybe you should meet your maker.

If you were him - you would be like him.


-------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

Horse shit. No, I would not be like Tookie.

Lots of people, actually most people, brought up in the same conditions and circumstances as Tookie didn't kill four innocent people in cold blood

him run around free. But killing is wrong.


-----------------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

In my view and from what I have read as well as the interviews I've heard my sense is that he is guilty of murder.

I am against all industrial slaughter and against the death penalty. Period.

Maybe the (Man?) Maker Should decide these life or death issues. We are quick to assert ourselves into that role.

Our society seems unable and unwilling to examine the root causes of why there are gangs. Just more "Get Tough On Crime" bullshit from the authoritarians.

How many have died at the hands of white collar criminals? Where is our outrage at that?

the same.

And that's the fundamental question underlying this debate that so many people avoid. Do we believe in redemption or don't we? If we don't then fine. Put anyone who offends us down like a cur dog and be done with it.

But if we think people can change...then we need to be looking long and hard at what we do to end the chance of change.

Strange how our "punishment" based system hasn't appeared to make us safer or more noble...I'm wondering what it is we actually believe it is accomplishing besides keeping us up near the top of a great statistic that competes only with Iran and China.

I think there are other ways.

The whole original comments that started this thread were overly emotional and full of completely absurd and over the top comparisons and statements.

Maybe we could have some threads that are devoted to Mr. Williams' VICTIMS...you know the FOUR people that he murdered in cold blood?

We women were once and are always over=emotional creatures to the point of hysteria even. Perhaps modern medicine can cure us with a little Descartian logic and keep us in the realm of linear rational thinking. Then again maybe the heart knows as much or more than the head.



Professor Jean-Martin Charcot was well-known for showing, during his lessons at the Salpêtrière hospital, "hysterical" woman patients – here, his favorite patient, "Blanche" (Marie) Wittman, supported by Joseph Babinsky.

The next major stage in the unfolding of the relationship between emotions and disease began with the deeper exploration of one of the neuroses: hysteria. This complex disorder was long known in medicine but not until the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries was it seriously associated with the nervous system or emotional causation. Until that time it was regarded as of uterine origin, as its name implies (from the Greek "hystera" = uterus). 16 In the seventeenth century, Thomas Willis thought that hysterical disorders were primarily convulsive consequences of "the brain and nervous stock being affected." Famous clinician Thomas Sydenham said that they were caused by "irregular motions of the animal spirits," which were frequently precipitated by "some great commotion of mind, occasioned by some sudden fit, either of anger, grief, terror or like passions."

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/emotions/psychosomatic.html

People like Mr. Williams, he killed four people, he's a murderer, the penalty is death and he might get this hearing on December 9th, but on December 13th he's going to pay the price for the taking of four lives.

Society is not to blame for it's Mr. Williams', they chose their own destiny. There are many people in society who've had awful upbringings, and have been beaten and abused...the majority of them don't grow up to become murderers.

I do get emotional over decent, hard-working people who through no fault of their own cannot afford proper health insurance. So I thought that the comparison between Mr. Williams and those people, was not fair and it was rather offensive.

And ignoring the multitude of factors that make up our history and our daily lives. Yea, it's all about choice. So many blacks in jail. Must be the entire race is plagued with poor choice-making capabilities. Nope, no institutional racism or structural poverty involved in this grotesque injustice.

The entire country of Malawi is in a state of deprivation. Damn. A whole country making bad choices. Nothing to do with the legacy of colonialism.

And of course my choices are the best ones which is why I can afford the cappucino. Me. Enlightened self-interest as the engine of social progress. No consequences. My "choices" are simply done in a vaccuum.

Sorry but this is inequality, by design. How then are kids from poorly funded schools supposed to "compete" with kids from places like beverly hills? Sure, some (the exceptions) will be able to compete, but many, perhaps most, won't. We, our society, places tremendous burdens on and has trememdous expectations of those at the bottom of the barrel. Meanwhile people like Bush barely pass at places like Harvard and Yale, and then are handed everything to them, including the office of president. and to add insult to injury, the irony of someone like him whining about "quotas" barely get a mention in our so-called press.

So now tell mehow the police and employers view him...that inner-city kid...regardless of his lifestyle. Individual choice is often used as an excuse to dismiss institutional and cultural choices and realities.That's what the rw has been doing for 25+ years.
So even telling a kid from the hood to stay away from a particular lifestyle may do little to stop some cops from shooting him 41 times for reaching for his wallet because of what he symbolizes in American culture. And let's face it: if America wanted equal opportunity for all there would be equal opportunity for all. Regardless of what choices people make, there is only so much room at the top, and increasingly a lot less in the middle.

Now defendant Williams's plight is being compared to that of the "uninsured, elderly and infirmed" ("ed" written by poster)? What utter bullshit.

I have unerring sympathy for the uninsured, elderly, the infirm (no "ed"), those below the poverty line, etc. But to lump them in with the murderer of four innocents is an insult to the good people who obey the rules, work as hard as they can trying to make ends meet. What a complete slap in the face you have delivered to those people.

In case anyone wants information on the life and crimes of this defendant, you can get it here: http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

yet some people seem to think Snoop Dog a much more authoritative source

Simply amazing.

I can understand if people are against the death penalty on moral and principles position, what I can't understand is why people are defending this thug as innocent.

I've been posting that information for two days now. It goes totally ignored by the Tookie Groupies.

And I'm with you 100% on the idea that if someone is against the DP on principle, fine. But they don't stop there. They defend him as a person, while diminishing the impact of his life of crime and the four lives he took and the families he tormented with his murderous behavior.

Do that defend him as a person . . . I'm just against the Death Penalty.

Heck I haven't even made up my mind if I'm going to write to the govenor and ask for Clemency . . . because although I don't want him to get the Death Peantly (Because I'm against it in all cases not because I think Tookie is "reformed" or a "hero" or anything as such) . . . I don't know if he should be a special case either. I mean, there are so many people on death row (Can't give exact examples, that'll probably come back and bite me) who's guilt is probably more questionable than Tookie's and they don't get half the exposure that Tookie who did indeed murder is getting.

I'm just against the death penalty, but I don't defend what he has done.

He murdered four people, including a family of three people, the Father, the Mother and their only child.

He's been found guilty, by a jury of his peers. His punishment fits his crime, this is what the law says. I have no sympathy for Mr. Williams...I have much sympathy with the friends and family of those innocent people that Mr. Williams murdered in cold blood.

When he's executed, I won't think of Mr. Williams, but I will think that finally his victims' loved ones will at last have some sort of closure.

Just said my piece, I've been in Death Penalty threads before. I don't want to make anymore comments on these sort of cases. I onlt posted to this thread because of the absurd comparisons that were made in the original post...I mean, talk about chalk and cheese, water and oil...that kinda hit a new level.

I'm pro-Death Penalty and I remain that way.

Why can I never get an answer to that question?

The simple thing is, if Mr. Williams didn't want to get himself into the situation he's now in, meaning on the verge of being executed, then he should have thought of that at the time he murdered four people.

His victims families and friends will have closure, because they'll know that Mr. Williams is no longer able to enjoy reading a book, or watching the TV, or listening to the radio, or writing...that sort of stuff.

Four innocent people Mr. Williams denied the right to carry on living, to enjoy reading a book, or watching the TV, or listening to the radio, or writing.

On Edit: California is a Democratic state, it's blue in color, and something like 68% of the people in California support the Death Penalty.

I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for Tookie Williams. The death penalty is abhorrent in a civilized society.

I don't care who in California supports it. It's wrong.

Be life in prison served in solitary confinement, with absolutely no means for them to have any form of enjoyment or life.

Just a bed, washing facilities and a john and that's it...perhaps a window. Nothing else, just the most basic of basics.

Their victims cannot enjoy ANYTHING because they're dead, and they're dead forever.

Could that ever satisfy the demand for vengeance?

Would have to wouldn't it. I'm pro-Death Penalty, but I would settle if there was no Death Penalty, I'd settle for life in prison in solitary confinement with just the basic of basics, including no walking around the exercise yard.

If they're found guilty then they must remain in solitary confinement 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year until they die.

To me it's not about vengeance, what it's about is making them pay the most severe price and have the most severe punishment.

To me it's not about vengeance, what it's about is making them pay the most severe price and have the most severe punishment.

emphasis added.

:silly:

That murderers, rapists, pedophiles and those types should HAVE to pay the price for what they've done?

So they shouldn't have to be forced to pay the most severe price and they shouldn't have to be forced to have the most severe punishment?

I'm sorry, I'm not going to sit there and hold their hands and baby them. As far as I'm concerned, if there's no Death Penalty, then we just lock them up in solitary confinement for the rest of their lives and throw away the key.

We've got far more important and pressing subjects to be dealing with and far more serious issues in society involving decent, hard-working people to be paying attention to. I want to deal with social inequality and healthcare and job creation programs and saving social security and raising the minimum wage and a wide range of other equally important issues.

I'm not going to waste time and money on murderers, rapists and pedophiles. If there's no Death Penalty, then we should just cut them off completely and isolate them for the rest of their lives in a solitary cell with just the most basic of things.

On Edit: Spelling error.

Have I ever asked you to baby anyone? I don't think so.

My point of view is simple: the death penalty is a barbaric practice which serves no real purpose other than vengeance.

You'll note that there's nothing in that pov that says anything about being nice to murderers or coddling rapists.

I'm not going to waste time and money on murderers, rapists and pedophiles.

DP cases cost more than others by quite a bit. I agree that there are other issues on which we should be focusing, but the state killing of citizens sort of takes center stage for me while it is legal.

So we agree that we shouldn't be thinking of giving a cozy life imprisonment to murderers, rapists and pedophiles.

I was just confused by you emphasizing my comment "pay the price"

I've mentioned that at present we only have two choices a)the Death Penalty and b)life imprisonment.

Should the law be changed to - life imprisonment IN solitary confinement...which would mean that the prisoner would NEVER leave solitary confinement for their entire life sentence.

Then yes, I'd say let's do away with the Death Penalty. The way it is though, life imprisonment I don't think is severe enough for them, for instance there have been many of them who've studied and earned degrees whilst serving life for murder.

We have 19 year-olds, 20 year-olds who are out there working two and sometimes three jobs to pay their way through college, decent people having to pay their way...yet murderers serving life, they get their studying for a degree paid for them by decent, hard-working people earning a living and paying their taxes. It's not right.

So because we're just left with life in prison, which I don't think is sufficient enough...then at present I have to stay with the only sufficiently severe form of punishment which is the Death Penalty.

I do agree, that we need to have a debate in society about this issue, trouble is, it's not happening. I think we could have a debate that didn't involve overly emotional arguments.

why should they sit and stare, why can't they make something for others?

Why can't they read magazines and see pictures of their families and wish that they had not been stuck on stupid and BULLIES?


See, I see something worse than Death.

For me to have my parents and children come to visit me and to know that I could never hug them or be with them is worse than death to me.

But my mind,and your mind, does not work like many prisioners.

What do they LEARN from dying? They will never know and we will never know.

What we do know is that we teach our children that to kill is OK.

It's OK on the battle fields of Iraq and it is OK by thehighest court in America.

Their is no justice in America until the Death Penalty is done with and Kenny Lay and the NeoCons are in jail for the rest of their natural lives.

I have informed my wife and children that if I am ever murdered, I don't want some cold blooded mindless creep talking about sympathy for me while screaming for the blood of my killer.

I just don't go that way.

Again, I have emphasized this many times in my family - just in case.

Were I murdered - and hell I might be - the last thing I would want is an orgy of more murder in my memory or through some appeal to me and my decendents to commit an atrocity that I would never enact myself.

I assume though, that you have personal knowledge of the philosophy, faith, and attitudes of all victims of murder. Why don't you inform us how you collected this information?

More likely I suspect that you don't know a fucking thing about any of these people.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0310231876/104-9446221-9123111?v=glance&n=283155

http://www.stfrancisonline.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SFB&Product_Code=157075358X

By the way, I am curious. Were you on the jury of a person who found and innocent person guilty, an affair subject to the death penalty, and were that sentence then carried out, and the "criminal" exonerated after the event, would you then scream for the execution of the arresting officers, the prosecutor, the members of the jury, the prison staff, and the executioner? It would be, after all, taking an innocent life, premeditated and enacted through conspiracy.

It would be a fuck load more honest if so.

Isn't it marvellous when people would go to the wall for someone like Mr. Williams the murderer...and yet beat up and attack people like me.

Yes I do know what I'm talking about and no I'm not a cold-blooded mindless creep. You have no right to bad mouth someone like that.

Yes I have every right to my opinion and what I think of COLD-BLOODED murderers like Mr. Williams.

I must say that I'm glad that Capital Punishment decisions are not made by sections of society who ignore what the murderer has done to their victims, ignore the victims...and make their decision solely on the fact that the murderer is a victim too. Thank goodness that these decisions are made by people who can divorce themselves from being overly emotional.

Mr. Williams' victims did NOT deserve to die...he DOES.

You know, I've seen many threads regarding Mr. Williams...I've yet to see ONE thread about Mr. Williams' four victims. So WHAT does THAT say?

Does it say that the victims don't count? Does it say that the loved ones and the friends that those four victims left behind don't count?

I gave my alternative to the Death Penalty...life in solitary confinement with NO outdoor walking around the exercise yard breathing in fresh air and feeling the breeze blow against the face.

Life...solitary confinement...a bed...washing facilities...and slopping out the john...and thats it. End of, until they die of natural causes or whatever, they want to commit suicide, then thats their business and nobody should get in the way of their business.

On Edit: Spelling error.

I'm against teh death penalty by the way. Eye for an eye leaves us all blind, etc....But I still got your back even though you don't seem to need much help, haha....
Thou Shalt Not Kill (even in teh name of the state or justice)
R

to oppose the death penalty.

I am saying that no person, creep or otherwise, has a right to make a statement about the matter of victimhood.

It is pretense - rude pretense - for to assume that you "care about the victims," and those who don't are indifferent to the victims. You assume that I am indifferent to the victims solely because I am against the death penalty. You don't know me. You don't know them at all. Your interest is in imagining that you have some kind of standing in the case, so that you can see an act of revenge played out.

In reality though, you're a complete stranger asserting your view of how a very personal matter should be dealt with. Were I one killed by Mr. Williams and if you were trying to shoot off about my victimhood laced with some phony compassion for me, my family would despise you - because I asked them to do so in any such circumstance. In my previous post I have given two accounts from two surviving victims of murder - one who was held in sexual slavery and raped repeatedly for days - who opposed the death penalty.

Call me a "cold-blooded mindless creep". When I'm none of those things.

Just because two people survived murder and are anti-death penalty...doesn't mean that I have to follow suit and be anti-death penalty. Sure those two people are anti-death penalty...the step-Mother of Mr. Williams victim * has stated that she wants Mr. Williams put to death.

* the victim that wasn't part of the three person family obviously.

Many victims relatives and friends go and watch the murderer put to death...why do you suppose that is? I personally wouldn't want to watch somebody put to death...but for their own reasons those relatives and friends do want to watch...perhaps it gives them closure, and gives them some form of relief that justice has been served on behalf of their loved ones.

On Edit: Changed word.

You're right I don't know you very well, certainly no better than you know the people Tookie Williams murdered in cold blood. Nor do I want to know you better, really. However you are jumping to conclusions when you claim that I have "called" you something.

Surely a big bad proponent of the death penalty should be less squeamish and sensitive, no?

I called a putative person who might wax on happily in the case of the execution of my putative murder a cold blooded mindless creep, not you.

If you were appealing to the execution of my murderer as a display of "victims rights" then my children, and my wife would regard you as a cold blooded mindless creep. I have not said you are a creep now, although I did ask you if you have personal acquaintance with the victims of Tookie Williams. Obviously I have not been murdered. If I am, however, you will have the happy opportunity to be regarded by my family as a "cold blooded mindless creep."

If you have chosen to define yourself in this way in reading my passage, which clearly says "a person" and not "J. Temperance" that's your projection not mine. I did not say that you were anything.

For the record, I have a brother who might exult in watching my murderer die, I suppose. I fully expect that he would make grand speeches about it too. That has nothing to do with what I would want. Neither my brother nor for that matter my step-mother (who as a Catholic never calls for anyone's execution) speak for me. People who think state murder is a good idea however, might cite my brother as part of the justification for what would be the second crime against me, the murder of my murderer.

Some people think it is justifiable for thieves to have their hands cut off. This, they say, is only "justice." Some of these people are in fact people who have been robbed. This does not mean that dismemberment is an appropriate punishment for thievery. It is not. Victims do not have a special right to determine punishment in any civilized culture in the world.

That's a good sized popultion. . . .

How many people do we execute a year on average out of curiousity? I'm going to guess less than 40?

latest EXAMPLE that they have made to show us how to hate ourselves.

Funny how they never come after their own.

What able Mr. Crook from Enron, who crushed to death the hopes and dreams of so many honest and loyal employees?

When is his trial and why doesn't he deserve the DP?

... blah. :sarcasm:

and so are all the others that have killed America The Beautiful.

I don't even want Kenny Boy to get the DP, that would be too good for him.

I want him to sit in jail for the rest of his natural life and look at pictures of mansion in magazines and read the stock market and drool.

Much of society doesn't see them as the thugs that they are... at most they're seen as just businessmen.

Kenny Boy in prison, reading about all of the people that he devastated winning civil lawsuits against him would be a nice added touch. Enron changing ownership (to the employees) would be the icing on the cake.

pick the jury for the REAL murderers ~ the BushCrooks!

Just kidding all all of those that Lovvve the Death Penalty. :)

...we've done to Jesus. Matt.25:36-46