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12/5 ** URGENT**THREE DAYS to APPEAL to GOVERNOR SCHWARZENEGGER!!!

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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 08:31 AM
Original message
12/5 ** URGENT**THREE DAYS to APPEAL to GOVERNOR SCHWARZENEGGER!!!
STAN TOOKIE WILLIAMS' CLEMENCY WOULD BE LIFE
W/O PAROLE, NOT FREEDOM!!!




    UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
    FOR THE NINTH CIRCUIT

    http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/newopinions.nsf/9B878DF...

    RAWLINSON, Circuit Judge, with whom PREGERSON,
    REINHARDT, THOMAS, WARDLAW, W. FLETCHER,
    FISHER, PAEZ, and BERZON, Circuit Judges join, dissenting
    from denial of rehearing en banc:
    In this case, a prosecutor, publicly castigated by the Supreme Court of California for his pattern of racially motivated peremptory jury challenges, removed all blacks from Williams’ jury. In declining to take this case en banc, our court bestows an implicit imprimatur upon the trial court’s denial of a constitutionally mandated jury selection process.
    In my view, the panel opinion contains two errors: (1) failure to issue a certificate of appealability (COA) to Williams despite his satisfaction of the standard for the grant of a COA, and (2) misapplication of the standard of proof to establish a prima facie case of Batson error. By increasing the burden of proof necessary to make a Batson prima facie showing, the panel cleared the way for attorneys “who are of a mind to discriminate” by exercising their peremptory challenges to excise prospective African-American jurors from the jury box. Batson v. Kentucky, 476 U.S. 79, 96 (1986).
    I dissent from the denial of rehearing en banc not only because every defendant is entitled to a jury that is unbiased and untainted by racial discrimination in the jury-selection process, but also because the very legitimacy of our system of justice depends upon continued vigilance against such practices.




Previous thread:

12/4 ** URGENT**FOUR DAYS to APPEAL to GOVERNOR SCHWARZENEGGER!!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5514678

Please sign the petition for clemency
http://www.petitiononline.com/stw4804/petition.html

Another petition
http://www.petitionthem.com/?sect=detail&pet=2240

Please support the effort to save Stanley 'Tookie' Williams at
http://www.savetookie.org

To learn more about Tookie and his work on behalf of children
and families across the world, visit

http://www.tookie.com

Please also call, email, and FAX Gov. Schwarzenegger:

Phone: 916-445-2841

Email: governor@governor.ca.gov

FAX: 916-445-4633

snail mail address:
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814



THE STANLEY 'TOOKIE' WILLIAMS CASE

Stanley 'Tookie' Williams' execution is scheduled for Dec. 13, one minute after midnight.

Tookie's conviction was based entirely on circumstantial evidence.

Tookie's conviction was filled w/racist tactics & based on
questionable circumstantial evidence & ‘witness’ testimony.
This casts serious doubt on whether Stan ‘Tookie’ Williams was
given a fair trial. It also questions whether he is guilty
beyond a reasonable doubt..

    The prosecutor in the case was allowed to dismiss black jurors.

    This prosecutor made numerous racist remarks during the
    trial.

    Police files were deliberately left in a paid informant's jail
    cell to help prepare the informant w/details so that he could
    testify that Tookie 'confessed' to him.

    Fingerprints found at the scene were not his, bloody
    footprints found at the scene were not his, etc.


At the time he started it, at the age of seventeen, the Crips numbered around thirty members, when he was convicted, still less than a thousand.

Tookie's work over the past decade has saved tens of thousands of kids from gang life. He can do far more good living than his death could ever accomplish.

Desmond Tutu, Mario Cuomo, Alfre Woodard, Susan Sarandon, Tim Robbins, Danny Glover, Jesse Jackson, Bianca Jagger, Snoop Dogg (a fellow former Crip), Anjelica Huston, Tom Hayden, 100+ Nobel Laureates, peace & justice activists, the religious community, the anti-death penalty community, community activists, anti-gang activists and precious children and youths wanting to avoid/leave gang life, support Stanley Williams and urge the governor ro grant him clemency.


Laura Flanders' (AAR) excellent Nov. 26 interview w/Barbara Becnel,
Stan ‘Tookie’ Williams’ advocate:

http://www.airamericaplace.com/archive.php?mode=display ...

DOAR Supports Tookie Williams Clemency Hearing (VIDEO):
http://www.doar.com /


PLEASE contact Gov. Schwarzenegger for clemency!

Thank you!!!
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
1. *** SUBTHREAD DEBATE *** Race plays a role in death penalty implementation

Race is an important factor in determining who is sentenced to die. In 1990 a report from the General Accounting Office concluded that "in 82 percent of the studies , race of the victim was found to influence the likelihood of being charged with capital murder or receiving the death penalty, i.e. those who murdered whites were more likely to be sentenced to death than those who murdered blacks."

Death Penalty Focus
http://www.deathpenalty.org /




***

Discuss!

for additional information, please see:

DEBATE: Race plays a role in death penalty implementation. BAN the DP!


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5514806

Thank you!
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. "It is not only unfair and unjust... it's racist"
Scheduled Execution Of Md. Killer Assailed In Media Campaign
Death Penalty Foes Pressure Ehrlich
By Eric Rich
Wednesday, November 30, 2005; B02

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/29/AR2005112901593.html

-snip-

Baker's sentence was stayed three years ago to give state-sponsored researchers time to complete an analysis of inequalities in the application of the state's death penalty law. The researchers found that prosecutors were far more likely to seek the death penalty for black suspects charged with killing white victims, as Baker was in Baltimore County in 1991.

The study, commissioned by Gov. Parris N. Glendening (D) in 2000, fueled efforts to impose a moratorium on executions and to push anti-death penalty measures in legislature, none of which passed.

Steele, who has described the study's findings as "personally troubling," pledged during the 2002 gubernatorial campaign to study the issue. A spokesman for Steele's current campaign, for the U.S. Senate, said yesterday that Steele is studying the issue and that he expects to report to the governor "in the near future." Both Ehrlich's spokesman, Henry Fawell, and Steele's spokesman, Leonardo Alcivar, said Steele and Ehrlich have discussed the Baker case privately.

-snip-

It is not only unfair and unjust to impose the death penalty in Maryland, it's racist," state Sen. Lisa A. Gladden (D-Baltimore) said at a news conference in Annapolis yesterday.

-snip-

***

death warrant came out this morning, despite that all entitled appeals have not yet been not made. in MD, they keep time of execution secret. can be any time from now on.

governor allegedly still mulling over clemency.


this is insane
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. "Six of the seven men on Maryland's death row are black, ...
... and all but one of their victims were white."... Del. Darryl A. Kelley (D-Prince George's) said.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/29/AR2005112901593.html
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. we must stop them. racist! thank you, Sapphire Blue! eom
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. was that brash, in my hurry to reply? just had to post thanks, SB! eom

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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. "the product of their {the prosecutors} action does result in racial...
Edited on Mon Dec-05-05 02:53 PM by Sapphire Blue
... disparity." (University of Maryland professor Raymond Paternoster, in announcing the findings of the study...)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/29/AR2005112901593.html
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Challenging the racist death penalty... The death penalty’s real purpose

Challenging the racist death penalty
By Eugene Puryear

(excerpt)

The death penalty’s real purpose

Those who compare the death penalty to legalized lynching are doing more than making a dramatic analogy. Lynching—including the torture, killing and mutilation of Black people—was common especially in the post-Reconstruction South following the Civil War and right up through the mass civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s as a method of terrorizing the population and quelling any agitation for equal rights.

A clear presentation of the issue of racism and the death penalty was seen in a February 2002 American Sociological Review article, “The Political Sociology of the Death Penalty.” That article presents data showing the same states that historically had the most lynchings are also the states where the most people are executed. David Jacobs, co-author of the study, said in a 2002 press statement, “Our results suggest that the death penalty has become a sort of legal replacement for the lynchings in the past. … The results show a clear connection.” The study also shows that in these same states an increase in death sentences corresponded directly to an increase in the Black population.

Some point out that death sentences for whites also increased. Jacobs addressed this argument: “If there was clear discrimination against Blacks in death penalty sentencing, then the Supreme Court might again rule that the death penalty is unconstitutional, so there may be an effort to not discriminate when imposing the death penalty. While the connection between lynchings and death sentences is strongest when only Black death sentences are considered, the connection between lynchings in the past and contemporary death sentences is present for both Blacks and whites.” In summation, Jacobs concludes, “the main point is that our findings do not support the claims that the death penalty is administered in a color-blind fashion.”

African Americans are portrayed by the ruling class as a race of criminals, and the racist legal system leads to Blacks being incarcerated at alarming rates. African Americans’ fear of the legal process is due in no small part to the racist application of the death penalty. The intolerance and ruthlessness of the state has a chilling effect.


http://socialismandliberation.org/mag/index.php?aid=516





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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. "... the same states that historically had the most lynchings are also...
... the states where the most people are executed."

(Data presented in a February 2002 American Sociological Review article, “The Political Sociology of the Death Penalty.”)

http://socialismandliberation.org/mag/index.php?aid=516
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #16
33. shocking! "a sort of legal replacement for the lynchings in the past."!!!!
GET THAT, FOLKS!! PLEASE!!!

we must stop them.

thank you!


peace and solidarity!
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
47. *** UIC lecture sides with ex-gang leader
UIC lecture sides with ex-gang leader

(excerpt)

Convinced that racism and injustice were manifested during the trial of Stanley Tookie Williams in 1981, Marlene Martin, National Director of The New Abolitionist, a newsletter of the campaign to end the death penalty, and Madison Hobley, a former Illinois death row inmate, passionately spoke to UIC students on Thursday, Dec. 1, informing them of the false evidence that led to the conviction of Williams, and asked them to take part in the fight to save him as his execution date of Dec. 13 approaches.

<snip>

Taking into consideration his past, Williams offered his words to The New Abolitionist, "My words are not an apology, nor a dawning plea of a condemned man. This is a declaration of truth that evokes the question, 'Can a Black man in America receive justice under the law?'"

"He doesn't deny his past." Martin stated. "But he's not going to apologize for something he didn't do."

<snip>

Martin finished the discussion with the words of Martin Luther King, "Never again will I raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world, the U.S. government."

Continued @ http://www.chicagoflame.com/media/paper519/news/2005/12/05/Features/Uic-Lecture.Sides.With.ExGang.Leader-1121327.shtml
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #47
54. "Never again will I raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed..
... in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world, the U.S. government."

- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
59. Waiting for Mr. Steele's life-and-death memo
Waiting for Mr. Steele's life-and-death memo
By C. Fraser Smith
Originally published December 4, 2005

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bal-op.fraser04dec04,1,5660499.story?coll=bal-oped-headlines

-snip-

The conflict moved up another notch with the visible intervention of Cardinal William H. Keeler, who visited the condemned man last week and then urged the governor to spare him.

-snip-

The question arises because Mr. Steele undertook a review of the death penalty in Maryland and the criticisms raised by Raymond Paternoster, a University of Maryland professor who says the penalty is applied in a way that suggests racial and geographic bias. If you're black and you've killed a white person, you're more likely to be sentenced to death. If you live in Baltimore County, you're very likely to hear that sentence in a capital case. In the adjacent city, Baltimore, you're almost never going to hear it.

Asked for the results of his examination last week, Mr. Steele said he had interviewed some people and spoken to some interest groups. He said he was going to give the governor a memo in January. A memo? In January? Mr. Baker is scheduled to die this week.

-snip-

Now the fate of a man - and the concerns of citizens for or against the death penalty - are in the hands of two leaders who don't agree and who haven't completed a promised study. How can an execution go forward under such circumstances?

-snip-

***
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
60. Death penalty foes urge review of racial study
Death penalty foes urge review of racial study
As execution clock winds down, the racial debate lingers
By Jennifer McMenamin
December 4, 2005

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal-te.md.race04dec04,1,7064118.story?coll=bal-local-headlines

When a major study found glaring disparities in the imposition of the death penalty in Maryland, opponents of capital punishment hoped it would spark reform -- or even the abolition of executions in the state. But as Wesley Eugene Baker faces a scheduled execution that could occur as soon as tomorrow, death penalty opponents are incensed and frustrated that so little has been done to address what they consider disturbing patterns of race and geography in the way the state imposes the ultimate sanction.

-snip-

"Absolutely nothing -- and I mean nothing -- has been done, and it's kind of outrageous," said Jane Henderson, executive director of Maryland Citizens Against State Executions. "All three branches of government in Maryland are refusing to deal with this."

-snip-

Christopher was chief of the state's capital defense division 15 years ago when he and his colleagues began noticing "huge disparities" in the number of capital cases coming out of Baltimore County compared with other jurisdictions in the state, and in the number of defendants sentenced to death for killing white victims compared with black victims. The Paternoster report, he said, presented on a larger scale what his office did in 1987.

-snip-

"It seems unfair that some inmates on death row will have a court examine the Paternoster study while others may not and could be executed before this issue reaches the Court of Appeals again on another case," said Julie S. Dietrich, who is Evans' attorney.

-snip-

***
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
65. The numbers do not support this theory.
Why not use verifiable numbers from official organizations, rather than unsourced numbers from organizations with a political agenda?

Is the death penalty inherently racist? Here are some statistics to consider:


The Crime Trends section of the U.S. Department of Justice - Bureau of Justice Statistics report states: "Since the death penalty was reinstated by the Supreme Court in 1976, white inmates have made up the majority of those under sentence of death." (Prisoners under sentence of death by race, Capital punishment, 1953-97)

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/gbjsw.txt


In 2004, 59 persons in 12 States were executed...

Of persons executed in 2004:
-- 36 were white
-- 19 were black
-- 3 were Hispanic (all white)
-- 1 Asian

Of persons under sentence of death in 2004:
-- 1,851 were white
-- 1,390 were black
-- 28 were American Indian
-- 32 were Asian
-- 14 were of unknown race.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cp.htm

Some charts for reference (source: U.S. Department of Justice - Bureau of Justice Statistics)



These next two are the most recent provided by the USDOJBJS (2002):

Despite there being more whites executed (and awaiting execution on death row) in the US, blacks were 7 times more likely than whites to commit homicide in 2002:



Blacks were 6 times more likely than whites to be murdered in 2002:



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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
134. Why 'Tookie' Williams deserves clemency
Why 'Tookie' Williams deserves clemency
DeWayne Wickham
12/5/2005

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/columnist/wickham/2005-12-05-wickham_x.htm

Richard Land, the head of the Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, is no bleeding-heart liberal. He's a rock-hard conservative who believes so fervently in the death penalty that he's willing to be an executioner.

-snip-

But while he's hard, Land is not heartless when it comes to the death penalty. "If you are going to support the death penalty, then you have to be as supportive of its equitable and just application," Land said in response to a question I put to him. It is immoral to do otherwise, he answered, while pointing out that the poor and people of color are much more likely to be executed in this country.

-snip-

There is strong evidence that the scales of justice are way out of balance when it comes to the people on death row. As with so much else in this country, race matters in death penalty cases.

-snip-

This duality tears at the soul of our nation and erodes the moral high ground we claim. By commuting Williams' sentence, Schwarzenegger can help force this nation to find ways to apply the death penalty equitably — or end its use.

***

DeWayne Wickham writes weekly for USA TODAY.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
4. NAACP Begins Tookie Tour on Tuesday
NAACP BEGINS TOOKIE TOUR ON TUESDAY: Four-city effort attempts to sway Gov. Schwarzenegger to grant clemency; plus 'Tookie' is inmate’s real middle name.
(December 5, 2005

http://www.eurweb.com/story.cfm?id=23737

-snip

Participating in the tour will be Alice Huffman, California NAACP President, Hon. Mervyn M. Dymally, Chair of the Legislative Black Caucus, Los Angeles Council members Yvonne Burke and Jan Perry, Barbara Becnel, Advocate for Stanley Tookie Williams, and local elected officials from each city.

“We’re not winning the war on gangs ourselves and to that end we should not execute a man who has single handedly been able to make a positive difference in so many youth regarding gang involvement,” commented Alice Huffman. “Williams could have opted to sit in his cell and wait for his execution date, but he didn’t. He choose to use his life as an example for all youth and in doing so has made a significant impact on the way many youth view gangs. We are calling on the Governor to grant this man clemency and allow him to continue saving lives.”

“Serious concerns have been raised about whether California’s death penalty is applied in fair and accurate manner,” stated Dymally. “A recent study shows that race is a key factor in who is sentenced to death in California. We need to put executions on hold while our state commission investigates these problems. For the state of California to continue to execute prisoners, while an official governmental body investigates the findings and allegations of error and racism in the criminal justice system, is unfair.”

"I call on the Governor to grant Mr. Williams clemency not only because I believe capital punishment is immoral and because we know it is applied disproportionately to people of color, but because I believe in rehabilitation,” commented Congresswoman Barbara Lee (D-Oakland) via a statement. “Through his work to end gang violence, his books for children and his Internet Project for Street Peace, Mr. Williams has demonstrated not only that rehabilitation is possible, but the good that can come if people are given the opportunity to turn their lives around.”

***
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
5. Time to halt death penalty
Time to halt death penalty
By Matthew Nickson
12/5/05

http://www.dailytexanonline.com/media/paper410/news/2005/12/05/Opinion/Time-To.Halt.Death.Penalty-1120535.shtml?norewrite&sourcedomain=www.dailytexanonline.com

-snip-

Supporters argue that the death penalty deters crime. To them, it constitutes legitimate punishment of murders that are especially shocking. It implicates the forfeiture of the place of the worst criminals in our implicitly Lockean social order, and it also provides closure to victims.

For opponents, the death penalty is unconstitutionally cruel and unusual punishment - an institution that brutalizes the state by forcing it to ape the vile nature of condemned murderers. It disproportionately affects minorities and the poor, and it is inherently susceptible to arbitrary application at every level, from sentencing to the granting or withholding of executive clemency. Besides, the penalty's purposes are equally served by the imposition of life sentences without possibility of parole - which, unlike death, can always be reversed if exculpatory evidence becomes available.

The considerations urged by both sides are valid and worthy of rigorous examination. In the end, however, the arguments in support of abolishing the death penalty are more compelling.

-snip-

It would be nobler - and a national affirmation of the wonder of human rebirth - to insist that penitent convicts never be executed. What is more, mercy shall triumph when we abandon the death penalty entirely because we know that one out of a thousand unrepentant men, whom we refrain from executing today, might fall upon his knees tomorrow and beg forgiveness. By placing faith in salvation and according grace to all murderers (by permitting them - if parole is inappropriate - to spend the rest of their lives in prison), we interrupt the cycle of violence that every murder initiates.

-snip-

***
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
6. "Because, if we save this brother, we are going to save a generation."
Actor Danny Glover urges Arnold Schwarzenegger to spare condemned inmate
Dec 5, 2005

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051205/ts_alt_afp/usjusticeexecutionglover_051205065405

-snip-

Glover derided the death penalty as "immoral" and out of tune with most of the civilized nations in the world.

"The international community has a chance to make the United States look at itself in the mirror, sit down and abolish the death penalty," Glover said while noting support for Williams has spread past US borders.

-snip-

The charges that put Williams on death row "weren't proven beyond a shadow of doubt" and "it's a trick" to blame Williams for the deeds of the notorious Crips gang he helped form in Los Angeles decades ago, Glover said.

"To blame Tookie Williams for The Crips is barking up the wrong tree," Glover said. "It would be like blaming all white people for slavery."

-snip-

***
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
7. IMPORTANT MESSAGE from H20 Man to DUers

I strongly urge DUers to
Posted by H2O Man on Tue Nov-29-05 11:47 AM

I strongly urge DUers to take the time to contact the governor and ask him to spare this man's life. There are a number of reasons, all of which are valid, for people doing this. It can be rooted in opposition to the death penalty; concerns about the racial overtones of the case; as well as the possibility that the man is innocent of the charges.

It seems that some DUers insist upon trying to derail the thread, and get it mired in an hostile debate about gang violence, and the hatred and fear that have infected America's soul. One person responded to the request that this thread be allowed to stay focused on saving his life, by saying DU is about debate, and that there should be room for differences of opinion. There is room for such differences: threads debating the value of capital punishment; the role of racism in the legal system; the frequency of innocent people being convicted; the dangers of gangs; and the pain of being victimized by violent thugs -- these are all potentially good.

But DU should also be about respecting others' opinions. It should include having personal boundries, where you don't feel free to try to insult other peoples' values. It should include respecting other peoples' efforts to organize fellow DUers in an effort they feel is important.

There is plenty of room for differences of opinion on DU. There is good reason for mutual respect for even those who disagree on things you feel strongly about.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5464497#5474206


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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
8. "We are preparing to execute an innocent man,'' (Barbara Becnel) said.
article from 2/05

CALIFORNIA
Condemned murderer of 4 loses appeal of death sentence
He was nominated for Nobel Prize for his writings
Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer
February 3, 2005

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/02/03/BAGMTB4IKJ1.DTL

-snip-

The Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals' refusal to reconsider Williams' case drew an impassioned dissent from nine judges, who said the court should have ordered a new hearing into whether the prosecutor violated Williams' right to racially neutral jury selection by removing three African Americans from the jury that convicted him.

"If our judicial system is to inspire a sense of confidence among the populace, we must not, we cannot permit trials to proceed in the face of blatant, race-based jury selection practices,'' said Judge Johnnie Rawlinson, writing for the dissenters.

But the request for a new hearing before an 11-judge panel failed to gain a majority vote among the court's 24 active judges....

-snip-

In an unusual postscript, the panel said Williams' "good works and accomplishments since incarceration'' might be grounds for clemency from the governor.

-snip-

***

PLEASE listen to this excellent and informative interview!!:

Laura Flanders' (AAR) excellent Nov. 26 interview w/Barbara Becnel,
Stan ‘Tookie’ Williams’ advocate:
http://www.airamericaplace.com/archive.php?mode=display ...

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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
9. You would be more effective if you didn't try to claim they were innocent.
While I would disagree with the anti-DP people, I can respect their principled stance. But I can not respect a position that attempts to claim that murderers like Williams and Baker are innocent.

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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. please listen to the interview in the post above yours. thank you. eom
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. The evidence has been posted in several of these threads. He is guilty. NT
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. meaning, "no," you won't listen to it? what are you afraid of? eom
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Afraid of wasting my time. I can read, and have done so.
The facts have been posted here.

Remember that you have also claimed that Baker is innocent.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. too bad. you might be surprised. no worry. eom
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. I wouldn't be. She is a close groupie. She would simply say the
same things that you have said. And you have been solidly debunked.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. no. she thought him guilty at first, until she investigated. eom
Edited on Mon Dec-05-05 04:18 PM by nofurylike
*edit for accuracy
and again, to write this.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. I told you. I can read. Both sides have posted what they have.
Your side has been debunked.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. That she now believes he is NOT guilty speaks volumes.
She has done extensive research, and bases her belief on her extensive research... looking into all of the facts (unlike so many who refuse to do so).
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. There have been about two dozen appeals.
All of those courts have looked at everything and also rejected ALL of Tookie's claims. He is guilty.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #42
57. Here we go again tonight. LOL
She is obviously not interested in the trial facts, which have been posted here for days on end.

She believes Tookie is the real victim because of racism. She has no proof of this, of course, but what do you expect?
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #39
49. it certainly does! and hearing her in that interview is
really something. she knows. she firmly knows. AFTER doing all the research!

yes, unlike some.
t' think about it, how would they handle finding out they're wrong, after being so vicious about it? i hope they'd know to just get past it and go on.

we could use their tenacity on this side.


peace and solidarity!
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #39
58. Please review the
trial facts. The propaganda you have been posting here doesn't help anyone.

The following link debunks most of the deliberate misinformation being posted around DU: http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf
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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
10. K &n R...
Edited on Mon Dec-05-05 02:28 PM by Peter Frank
on edit - formatting

It's not just about Williams. ...It's also about hope for young criminals to be rehabilitated.

Who's going to so the right thing if the Right will not?
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. "It's also about hope for young criminals to be rehabilitated." YES!
thank you, Peter Frank!


peace and solidarity!
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
12. Debating the defense of 'Tookie' Williams
(joe scarborough. not all easy to read, but interesting. Also has a poll - link in the middle of the page.)

Debating the defense of 'Tookie' Williams
Actor Farrell and talk show host Sliwa discuss fate of Crips founder
Dec. 5, 2005

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10335588/

-snip-

FARRELL: Well, yes. There's a significant question as to whether or not he's responsible for those killings, first of all.

The trial was extraordinarily faulty. And Stanley has always maintained he did not do them. He maintained so before, during and after the trial and consistently for all these years, before and during and after his extraordinary transformation.

So, he has apologized, and he has shown remorse, and he has reached out for the behavior that he acknowledges. As to the question of the murder of those people, he has consistently claimed he didn't do it and cannot, therefore, apologize or ask for clemency on the basis of a crime that he says he didn't commit.

Now, neither you nor I were there, Curtis, so I don't suppose you know any better than I do about whether he committed these crimes. But the point is, he has made an extraordinary change in his life. And the work he has done in the dozen years plus has had a serious impact on the lives of young people, who have been steered away from the very kind of life that you're condemning.

-snip-

***
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. "Now, neither you nor I were there, Curtis, so I don't suppose you know...
... any better than I do about whether he committed these crimes." - FARRELL (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10335588)

I wasn't there, either. Wonder if those so quick to pronounce his guilt were there???
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. isn't that a powerful statement? can't you just *hear* him say that, too?
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. Link to video is on that page...


Tookie on death row
Dec. 2: California death row inmate Tookie Williams is getting the support of Hollywood's elite to keep him from being executed. Actor Mike Farrell and radio talk show host and founder of the Guardian Angels Curtis Sliwa debate Tookie's fate.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10335588/
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. thank you for that info, SB! eom
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
17. December 8th People's Clemency Hearing for Stanley Tookie Williams
http://www.indybay.org/archives/archive_by_id.php?id=3820&category_id=13

On December 8th, Governor Schwarzenegger will hold a clemency hearing for Stanley "Tookie" Williams with defense lawyers, Los Angeles County prosecutors and other involved parties. The Governor has set a 30-minute time limit for each side to argue its position on clemency. He did not hold this type of meeting for either of the clemency petitions that he has rejected (those of Kevin Cooper and Donald Beardslee). The governor has the authority to commute a death sentence to life without parole. The importance of this hearing grew this past week when the California Supreme Court refused a request by lawyers for Williams to reopen the case. The People's Clemency Hearing for Stanley Tookie Williams will take place on the steps of the State Capitol Building in Sacramento at 12pm on December 8th.

There will be rallies and screenings in cities all over the country this week and next.
On December 6th in San Rafael, there will be a film screening and discussion about death row and the death penalty, at 7 pm at the Dominican Sisters of San Rafael, 1520 Grand Ave., corner of Grand and Acacia Streets.
In Berkeley on December 6th, there will be a panel discussion about clemency for Tookie. One of the speakers will be exonerated California death row inmate Shujaa Graham. The event will take place at 7pm at UC Berkeley, in 101 Moffit.
December 7th, a delegation of "Educators for Tookie" who signed a letter to Gov. Schwarzenegger calling for clemency for Stan will meet at 12pm on the steps of the State Capitol Building before going in to deliver their message.
On December 11th, internationally-known anti-death penalty activist Sister Helen Prejean will speak at a 2:00pm ACLU event in San Francisco.
On December 12th, the Walk for Abolition begins at the Palace of Legion of Honor in San Francisco at 7 am and ends at the gates of San Quentin Prison around 6 pm. There will be a vigil at San Quentin until Williams's scheduled execution just after midnight.

***

there are many links in the article, with info on actions.

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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
19. *** INTERVIEWS *** (Audio & video)
Interview w/ Stan Tookie Williams: http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/30/153247

Bruce Gordon, President of the NAACP, advocates for clemency: http://www.savetookie.org/brucegordon.html

Interview w/Barbara Becnel: http://www.indybay.org/uploads/frsc_barbara_becknell_tookie_williams.mp3

Laura Flanders interviews Bianca Jagger (Dec. 3) (approx 2/3 into the show): http://airamericaplace.com/archive.php?mode=display&id=3001

Laura Flanders interviews Barbara Becnel (Nov. 26) (approx 1/2 into the show): http://airamericaplace.com/archive.php?mode=display&id=2954
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
43. *** Another interview... Tom Hayden, Mark Leno
Second Hour - the case of Stanley "Tookie" Williams

We'll take another look at the case of Stanley "Tookie" Williams, who's scheduled to be executed at San Quentin State Prison. Tom Hayden will be joined by California Assemblymember Mark Leno, who is a sponsor of the Assembly bill calling for a moratorium on the death penalty.

http://www.pacifica.org/programs/sundaysalon/051204.html

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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. *** KICK *** for this excellent interview!
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. clip from Tavis Smiley's interview w/ Stan is included @ 1:15
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #43
52. *** DEVASTATING condemnation of the death penalty in this interview!
Anyone who supports the DP must listen to this.

http://www.pacifica.org/programs/sundaysalon/051204.html
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #52
110. YES YES YES YES YES YES YES!!!! LISTEN TO THIS, PLEASE!!!! eom
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #43
107. KICK for this EXCELLENT EXCELLENT interview!! THANK YOU SOOO
MUCH FOR THE LINK, Sapphire Blue!!!

outstanding!!


peace and solidarity!!
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #43
149. too scary to the blood-vengeance gang. eom
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
20. Do Not Execute Stanley Williams!
http://www.demaction.org/dia/organizations/ncadp/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=1592

-snip-

Moreover, Williams’ trial counsel allowed the prosecutor to unconstitutionally strike three black potential jurors. Two had been drawn, passed for cause, and had been placed in the jury box. One had been drawn as an alternate juror. The striking to potential jurors for no reason other than their race is a violation of the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution.

It is also important to note that Williams’ defense counsel neglected to object to the prosecutor’s unconstitutional juror strikes. This failure of defense counsel is a clear violation of the defendant’s right to effective assistance of counsel. As stated by the dissenting opinion in Williams’ U.S. Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals’ rejection of his motion for re-hearing “ny reasonable attorney under the circumstances of this case would have objected to the prosecutor’s use of peremptory challenges to rid the jury of African-Americans.”

The same dissent also points out that “here is a reasonable probability that Williams would have succeeded in proving that the prosecutor was engaging in impermissible racial discrimination.” Had trial counsel objected this probability may have been realized. The same dissent continues by stating that such an error is “sufficient to undermine confidence in the outcome of the trial.”

Clearly Stanley Williams is not an appropriate candidate for the death penalty. His trial was riddled with extraordinary constitutional violations. Additionally Williams has reformed in prison and can serve as an asset to society while serving a term of life in prison without possibility of parole.

***
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. there is also a petition on that ncadp page. please scroll down. thx! eom
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
28. link to a poll on clemency for Stan, and a discussion of the poll:
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #28
84. 69% NO / 31% YES 13,469 responses at 7:51PM CST NT
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
119. Just voted: NO. (69% NO, 31% YES -- 10:09 pm EST)
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Paradise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
36. A minute of your time could save a life... n/t
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. And many thousands of other lives...
... those of young people turning away from gangs, along with their potential victims.

Ending Stan Tookie Williams' life will not end gang violence. On the other hand, if he is allowed to live & continue his anti-gang work, he will continue to contribute greatly to ending gang violence.

End a life or end the violence? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to answer this.

Save Stan Tookie Williams!!!
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Paradise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #38
182. oh yes, you are correct.
one life can affect many...
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #36
69. how true! thank you for that, Paradise! eom
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Paradise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
37. A minute of your time could save a life... n/t
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Literally... just one minute of your time.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
41. Religious Leaders Urge Clemency For Stanley Tookie Williams
Religious Leaders Urge Clemency For Stanley Tookie Williams

(excerpt)

Ten interdenominational religious leaders, representing more than 27 million worshippers, have asked California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger to grant clemency for Stanley Tookie Williams, who is scheduled to be executed by intravenous injection December 13, 2005.

The Rev. Julius Hope, NAACP Director of Religious Affairs, said, "These leaders bring with them the prayers of their membership resulting in 27 million more voices crying in the wilderness, in the hope that Governor Schwarzenegger will bring about a positive and well deserved decision to show mercy and grant clemency to Mr. Williams."

In a letter to Schwarzenegger signed by the faith leaders, Hope said, "For those who believe that the State killing of Stanley Williams today would in anyway be fulfilling justice would mean the forever denying of forgiveness, or the recognition of human beings to grow, learn and change."

The religious leaders said they are "keenly aware of the adverse effects of crime in today's society." However, they said, "we also understand that the price cannot be paid or satisfied by the death of someone who has made contributions to reach out to those habitually forgotten individuals whom society does not pay attention or invest in until they are caught up in an ugly vicious cycle of survival."

Read the rest & view the list of signatories @ http://www.naacp.org/news/2005/2005-12-02-2.html
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BreweryYardRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
45. Before you rush to defend him...
He did this: (click on it and add the g to the URL, because it's not safe to view at work and I don't want anyone getting in trouble on my account)

http://www.johnandkenshow.com/blogimages/tookievictim3a... g

I don't care if he'd get life w/o parole, he killed the girl above and her parents, along with an old man, just to steal money from them/their jobs. Additionally, the old man was killed partly to get rid of witnesses and partly because he was white.

To sum things up: Tookie committed a hate-based robbery/murder and three other robbery/murders, in addition to founding one of the most violent gangs in US history. He deserves to die.

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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. So you don't believe in redemption?... n/t
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BreweryYardRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Somehow, I doubt he's sincerely repented...
He's probably just trying to save himself.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #45
53. Before you rush to judge him...
Today, he is a peacemaker.


Hmmm, what is it that the Jesus said about 'peacemakers'?

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God." - Matthew 5: 9


And about judging?

"Judge not, and ye shall not be judged. Condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned. Forgive, and ye shall be forgiven." - Luke 6: 37


And, of course, there's...

So when they continued asking Him, He lifted Himself up and said unto them, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." - John 8: 7


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BreweryYardRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #53
62. Well, I'm not claiming to be without sin.
And this discussion isn't about me, it's about Tookie. Even if he has repented of his sins (which I doubt), there's a quote (non-biblical) which I'm fond of:

"Sins may be forgiven. Crimes require punishment."

His work as a peacemaker (whether he's repented or not) has helped atone for his sins, but he still killed four people and founded an ultra-violent gang, and deserves to be punished for that.

It is nice to see someone arguing from the Bible though, and you presented your post in a rational manner (another nice change from some posters). I hope we can keep this discussion civil.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #62
67. It IS about you, when you call for his death, when you judge him...
... when you cast stones.

He has been convicted of four murders... only he knows the truth regarding his guilt.

His work as a peacemaker has allowed, and if given clemency, will continue to allow him to work to STOP the violence, STOP the killings. Is that not worth anything? Aren't the lives of the young people he is saving worth anything? Aren't the lives of their potential victims worth anything?

If Williams receives clemency (life w/o parole), why isn't that punishment enough?
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BreweryYardRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #67
106. Because he killed four people.
Allow me to note re: his conviction that he's had plenty of appeals before now, in California. To paraphrase another person's words on this: "If any state at all would be likely to let him off the hook, I'd say it's California." The appeal board didn't. Therefore, it has been established to my satisfaction that he is guilty. Justice must be served.

Additionally, I doubt that he has sincerely repented-hell, give him life and he'll probably use that time to try and escape from prison. Better not to take that chance.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #106
116. That's what you choose to believe. I'll refer you back to post #53.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #116
117. This, from a person who ignores the trial evidence. n/t
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #116
118. It is what the evidence shows, and the eyewitness testified,...
...and what 24 years of appeal courts have upheld. And it is consistent with the character he displayed at the time.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #53
86. Separation of Church & State.
Sin is a religious doctrine. Crime is a civil one.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #53
88. By this "logic" there could be no
justice system.

No serious person buys into your argument here.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #53
158. Unless this Jesus person was on the jury what does that have to do with
this US legal case?
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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #45
162. Prove this one for me:
"To sum things up: Tookie committed a hate-based robbery/murder and three other robbery/murders, in addition to founding one of the most violent gangs in US history. He deserves to die."


What's your knowledge of gang history in the US? Cite your references.
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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #162
170. umm Tookie saying...
" I founded the Crips"
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apollo56 Donating Member (80 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
51. You are crazy he killed four people let him die
He should die and he may have somewhat changed but his prison record shows he has not and what about the four people he killed????????????
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. The murder victims don't count.
Tookie is the real victim.

That's pretty much what they've been arguing here for the past week or so. Sick.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
56. Former gang member says change is possible
Former gang member says change is possible

A former Rochester gang member says it's possible to change. Paul McFadden reacted to next week's scheduled execution of Tookie Williams, on death row in California.

"I can identify with Tookie Williams greatly, I think everybody has a purpose given to them by God," said the former gang member, now community volunteer.

<snip>

But McFadden says the story of Tookie Williams is more about saving the future than forgiving the past.

"Right now it's about saving the children. Helping people grow into a productive member of society and a credible person of the household," McFadden said.

http://www.wroctv.com/news/story.asp?id=20872&r=l

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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
61. Op-ed for your consideration:
A very concise, accurate op-ed!

Crips founder Williams deserves death sentence


Last Updated: November 28, 2005, 07:50:00 AM PST

As the Dec. 13 execution date for Stanley "Tookie" Williams approaches, opponents of the death penalty have begun organizing high-profile protests to save the life of the co-founder of the Crips street gang. Little concern has been expressed for the four people Williams was convicted of killing in 1979.
Williams, 51, continues to deny his guilt despite overwhelming evidence, including testimony from his accomplices. His defenders say he has redeemed himself by turning his life around in prison and being active in anti-gang efforts. While his recent work is admirable, it doesn't come close to balancing out the violent deaths of a 7-Eleven clerk and three members of a family that ran a motel in Los Angeles.

Williams has had his conviction reconsidered in a lengthy appeals process, and the results have never changed: He is still convicted of killing four people in two separate robberies with a shotgun that he had purchased.

There is a movement under way to create an image of Williams that is at odds with the facts. For starters, he has not been a model citizen, according to authorities who have kept records on him since the awful murders.

Williams tried to escape prior to his trial in 1981. Then he threatened the jury that convicted him. He was involved in a violent fight with another inmate at San Quentin two months after his arrival. He threatened correctional officers and twice threw chemical substances at his guards.

To this day, Williams refuses to be debriefed by prison authorities about the actual activities of his gang. He says that would make him a "snitch." Does that suggest Williams wants to make up for his gang activity? Sounds like he's still a gang member.

In a written statement, Los Angeles County District Attorney Steve Cooley says Williams' recent turnaround must be weighed against the gang that he helped create. The Crips are violent and predatory, and chapters are now active across the nation and in several other countries.

While many reasonable and sincere people oppose the death penalty, California voters have repeatedly supported its use. Tookie Williams was fairly tried and convicted, and he should get the punishment that our state's court system says he deserves — death by legal injection.
http://www.modbee.com/opinion/story/11529891p-12266430c.html


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Ekirh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. Against the Death Penalty
And I'm against it in the case of Tookie as well. . . . but I think I can agree that he is not innocent. The fact that he won't give details about the activities of his gang due to it being "snitch"ing doesn't bold well in his favor. If he has truly reformed I would think he would have no problem helping against the very gang he helped create. But maybe I'm wrong.

Like I said I disagree with the death penalty and for that reason alone I would like to see Clemency . . . but I'm not trying to pass him off as innocent.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. You are one of the honest ones, then.
I can respect someone who is opposed to the death penalty on moral grounds. I don't share that view and I wouldn't try to change yours, nor would I invite you to try to change mine. I'm sure we've all done our own research and made up our minds.

The problem is, there are a few very vocal people here telling outright untruths about this case. My aim is to correct the record so that undecided DUers won't be swayed by misinformation.
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Ekirh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. Fair enough
And I can respect that although we stand on different sides of the Death Penalty issue.

I'm just annoyed Tookie is really getting all this press when of the (I'm guessing a number here) 30 or more executions that happen per year and a majority of them don't get near this much attention or press or a push towards clemency . . and in some cases there is a legit doubt in guilt.

Like I said morally I hope he gets Clemency . . . but I'm not going to try to portray him as a victim.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. The issue of "selective attention" was raised here
Edited on Mon Dec-05-05 07:42 PM by hiaasenrocks
yesterday and the day before by me and at least one other poster.

Then last night there was a spate of posts about another pending execution. It was obvious they were trying to deflect attention from the fact that they were focused on this defendant only. And, of course, the other guy on death row was innocent, too! Surprise.

What's going on here, in my opinion, is that there are a few very active posters who have been duped by the Save Tookie PR stunt. That's why he's getting the attention. That's why they think he's innocent, despite the fact that they refuse to discuss the trial evidence I and others have posted here repeatedly.
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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #68
75. Speaking for myself...
I've never said he was innocent. I believe he is more valuable to society alive than dead; that were he allowed to live and continue his work -- he would be force to bring gang members out of that world.

On a more practical level; another poster brought up the fact that innocent future victims will be spared by his efforts to get kids off the streets.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. I've heard that argument.
It assumes that this defendant is the only one who can achieve those goals.

I see no evidence to substantiate that.

Others can continue the work, and after December 13th, I am sure they will. But justice needs to be served, and it will.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #68
105. The other one is Wesley Baker.
They are claiming he is innocent, but the facts are:

His death warrant has already been issued. He is scheduled for execution sometime between now and the 9th.

On June 6, 1991 he killed a woman, in front of her minor kids, during a mall parking lot hold-up. Baker then escaped in a Blazer. Although some DUers claim he is innocent as part of their efforts to fight his DP, here are the facts:

There were two competent eyewitness. One a child and one adult.

He was caught within MINUTES of the murder.

Baker had the victim's blood on him.

The woman's MOST card was in the Blazer.

The murder gun was in the Blazer.

Baker's palm prints were on the gun.

Baker's fingerprints were also on the driver's side of the victims car, next to where she was shot.

http://mc4se.org/baker.htm

Also, back in September, there was a thread that was claiming the Frances Newton was innocent. Until you looked at the evidence. A witness saw her hiding the murder gun which had her prints on it. The victims were here own fhusband & children that she had taken out a huge insurance policy on.

I really get angry at these people that seem to think that every murderer on death row is an innocent victim of the system.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #105
111. You must be a racist. :) n/t
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #66
85. this is how they keep pulling us in. as soon as i reply that there is very
serious question in this case, too...

watch what will happen.

still, there is, you asked, so i'm saying that. come what may, again. many, many have worked providing a massive amount of information on the case. if you want to know more, it is very interesting material. please have at it!

**what really matters is working for clemency changing Mr Williams' sentence to life without parole.**

thank you for speaking openly, Ekirh!


peace and solidarity!
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #85
87. You just contradicted yourself again.
And this latest post sums up your position:

You post c/p articles, then run from them when questioned. You refuse to discuss the ACTUAL trial evidence (posted here many times for your perusal), and you make unsubstantiated claims about other members of this board. You present no factual basis for these constantly shifting claims about the trial.

That's all.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #87
95. post in wrong place n/t
Edited on Mon Dec-05-05 09:32 PM by hiaasenrocks
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #63
81. thank you, Ekirh. will you please consider writing and calling the
governor to express your opposiiton to the death penalty, and also signing the petition for clemency?

no one here has expected people to believe Mr Williams is innocent, in order to participate in this action.

those posters simply believe they can derail this effort by trying to veil the true purpose of this action, which is to advocate for clemency and life in prison without parole.

thank you for posting your views!

to call, email, and FAX Gov. Schwarzenegger:

Phone: 916-445-2841

Email: governor@governor.ca.gov

FAX: 916-445-4633

snail mail is very strong:

snail mail address:
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger
State Capitol Building
Sacramento, CA 95814

also, if you will, please sign the petition for clemency
http://www.petitiononline.com/stw4804/petition.html

another petition
http://www.petitionthem.com/?sect=detail&pet=2240


peace and solidarity!
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. Please be honest about this statement:
"no one here has expected people to believe Mr Williams is innocent, in order to participate in this action.

those posters simply believe they can derail this effort by trying to veil the true purpose of this action, which is to advocate for clemency and life in prison without parole."


You are posting theories that he is innocent right here in this thread.

Good grief, just look at the title of this post. You are clearly promoting the idea that he is innocent.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5519400&mesg_id=5521159

Please be honest.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. And here are other examples....
You urge another member to listen to the interview in post 27. ("meaning, "no," you won't listen to it? what are you afraid of? eom")

Then you say, in post 31, "too bad. you might be surprised. no worry. eom"

And at the end of that subthread, you hold her up as someone who has done the research and you make references to other people being wrong about that issue.

So you are clearly advancing the idea that he is innocent.

Why won't you address the LA County District Attorney's filing, which is complete with the trial details and photos of items in evidence?
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #82
98. i have never ever asked anyone else to accept that. all by way of
presenting ****doubt****.

****when in ANY doubt, i say, over and over, the execution must not happen.****

i also speak as a DP abolitionist. which would suffice, except people want to know why more focus on this and some other cases as more immediately URGENT. since it takes more time than any abolitionists can ever hope to keep up with.

i meanwhile work on all the other cases as well.

maybe you'd like to lend a hand on DP abolition?


thank you.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #98
101. As I said before...
You are obviously a serious advocate for one outcome in this case: clemency. Therefore, when you post articles in these threads, there is no doubt that you are pushing a position. So when you post articles calling his guilt into question, you are most assuredly hoping that people will accept that. (Even though you refuse to discuss the actual trial evidence.)

No, I won't join you in DP abolition. I believe it is a legitimate part of our justice system and I will continue to support the implementation of this penalty in cases that are clear-cut as this one.

All I'm asking is that you stop spreading falsehoods about this case. (I have corrected the record where I can, but you don't have anything to say about it.) And, curiously, you post "DEBATE!" threads, without engaging in debate based on factual evidence.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #101
123. by way of presenting ***doubt*** people, there is serious doubt. period.
you have no intention of even trying to hear the replies i waste my overwhelmed time providing you.

too bad for you. you would be surprised if you would really look.

this radio show, in fact. IF you are a progressive democrat, and IF you will listen to this, you WILL NOT JUST ALLOW THIS EXECUTION TO HAPPEN.

not my problem convincing you, though. you have no interest in "debate."

too bad you don't care enough about Justice to educate yourself beyond your parroting a racist prosecutor.




no more.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #123
125. This is all you have?
Edited on Mon Dec-05-05 10:34 PM by hiaasenrocks
Claiming I won't look at the evidence and that the prosecutor is racist?

First, I've posted the ACTUAL trial evidence here many, many times. You ignore it and have yet to comment on ANY of it. Why is that?

Secondly, you can claim "racism" because you have no argument based in fact. Why don't you try debating the trial facts?

And you refuse, time and again, to respond to the posts when I point out your numerous lies.

Are you capable of having a rational discussion about this, or are you just here to post baseless, hysterical, emotional rants?
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #125
154. nofurylike, got any answers to ^^these^^ questions? n/t
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #123
129. By the way, being a "progressive democrat"
doesn't mean towing the party line on all issues. I'm proudly more DLC than anything else, and I'll defend that all the way.

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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #129
148. just tow the proven-racist prosecutor's line.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #148
150. Please comment on the
trial facts on the Williams case.

http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

Thanks in advance.

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AussieDave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #61
71. Is it possible he still runs the Crips from prison
or is otherwise still involved with the gang, as difficult as it may be ??
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. There is speculation to that end.
I've read something about it. No one is sure. That's part of the problem with granting him clemency.
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AussieDave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. I just thought that a good cover would be all the other stuff he's done
while inside - the children's books, etc.

I also note that he hasn't been "debriefed by prison authorities about the actual activities of his gang" (your post #61). I would have thought a truly remorseful person would provide every assistance to law enforcement to help break up the gang.

Puzzling.
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Ekirh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. Agreed;
and I think the fact he doesn't help law enforcement doesn't bode well. . . and although I would like for it to get commuted to life. . . I think that could possibly play a factor in decision.


Although in all honesty the more I think about it . . . I see Arnie graning clemency in the case of if he believes it'll help his poll ratings. I haven't paid attention to Arnie's poll ratings in Cali as of late but I'm going to assume they are quite low?
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AussieDave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. I think his ratings ARE rather low, esp. after the elections last month
but also he COULD grant clemency to appease the Hollywood supporters of Tookie - because he ain't gonna be Governor forever, and he may want to return to the silver screen. Might be easier to get work if he sides with the Tookie supporters.

Convoluted theory, but I guess it's possible.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #80
90. Arnold isn't worried about his future film career.
First - He doesn't need to. He is a mega-star whose movies sell tickets. He is even able to put together deals to produce his own films. He doesn't have to beg for work.

Second - He has invested his money and doesn't need the income from films. And Maria is a Kennedy.

Third - The Hollywood groupies of Tookie will never forgive Arnold, even if he became a radical liberal and begged on his knees.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #78
92. I don't think this is about polls, but....
it would hurt him more to grant clemency. The people of California have spoken about the DP, and a jury consisting of those constituents found this defendant guilty and sentenced him to death.
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Ekirh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. Alrighty
Edited on Mon Dec-05-05 09:27 PM by Ekirh
My fault for not checking on what the majority of Californias wanted. I was just making a possible assumption.

Am I right to believe then you expect Arnie to say no to clemency? I know you want him to say no but I was just wondering if you expected him to?
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #94
96. When I say the people of California
have spoken, I am referring to the fact that they have, through their representatives, upheld the DP in their state.

I don't know what the governor will do. My hunch is that he will let justice be served in this case and proceed with the execution. There's always the possibility that he will succumb to the PR push, though. Who knows?
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #76
79. He quite obviously has no remorse
for the murders he committed or for starting a gang that has killed hundreds, maybe thousands, of people.

But he sure has done a good PR job.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
70. Regarding this defendant's Nobel Peace Prize Nomination

Who doesn't have a Nobel Prize nomination?

By Eugene Volokh, Eugene Volokh is a professor of law at UCLA Law School.

MANY advocates of clemency for Stanley Tookie Williams note that he has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize and the Nobel Prize in literature for his anti-gang work, which includes writing children's books. How could a convicted murderer and co-founder of the Crips be nominated for such prizes?

According to Nobel Prize nominating rules, any "professor of social sciences, history, philosophy, law and theology" and any judge or national legislator in any country, among others, can nominate anyone for a Nobel Peace Prize. Past nominees include Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Benito Mussolini and Fidel Castro. Any "professor of literature of linguistics," among others, can nominate anyone for a Nobel Prize in literature.

Naturally, many nominees have real merit. But being nominated by one or a few of the hundreds of thousands of eligible nominators is little evidence of such merit. This is especially so when the nominee is a source of controversy, and when it may seem that nominating him may prevent his execution.

It would surely be helpful to readers if news stories mentioning Williams' nominations — or, for that matter, any Nobel peace or literature prize nominations — stressed how unselective the nomination process is.

We're used to prize nominations signifying relatively broad acclaim, as for an Oscar. When a nomination means nothing other than a recommendation from a professor (or even a few professors and a legislator), that should to be made clear.

Besides, a convicted murderer's nominations for Nobel prizes shed little light on the complex question of whether he is sincerely contrite, whether he has done good deeds and whether his life should be spared.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/sunday/commentary/la-op-tookienobel4dec04,0,5637705.story?coll=la-sunday-commentary
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
72. Op-ed --- Williams: His life, his victims
Excellent points raised here:

December 2, 2005

As We See It: Williams: His life, his victims


On March 11, 1979, Stanley "Tookie" Williams broke down a door of the Brookhaven Motel in Los Angeles — according to a jury — and shot hotel owners Yen-I Yang and wife Ysai-Shai, and their daughter, Yee-Chen Lin, who was visiting from Taiwan.

A jury also convicted Williams of murdering Albert Owens in a Whittier 7-Eleven around the same time.

Williams is scheduled to die by lethal injection on Dec. 13, unless his life is spared by California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger.

A variety of death penalty opponents as well as political activists and a number of entertainers have come forward to call on Schwarzenegger to spare Williams' life. They argue that Williams is a changed man — and one who can teach even from a prison cell that young people should avoid the gang life and the world of violence.

Bruce Gordon, president and chief executive officer of the NAACP, has appealed to Schwarzenegger, saying the following in a written statement: "I am convinced that our community is best served if Stan is alive and contributing to the guidance of our youth. He is a one-of-a-kind human asset who needs to exercise his unique ability to touch the lives of young people."

Of course, Gordon did not bring up the names of his victims, nor did he discuss what contributions any of them could have made.

Is Williams a changed man? Does it matter even if he is?

Some question whether Williams has truly expressed remorse. Rather, he holds to his innocence, even while he authors children's books encouraging alternatives to a life of violence.

However, the evidence against him is overwhelming. The evidence included his own words following the slayings, as well as physical evidence of a shotgun — and eyewitness accounts. Defense claims have included a charge that African Americans were left off the jury — despite the reality that there was an African American man on the panel that ruled unanimously as to his guilt.

Whether he has expressed remorse or whether he is a changed man really shouldn't figure into Schwarzenegger's decision. The death penalty is supposed to be a deterrent, and if it's used, it should be applied as a penalty for actions taken. Williams' remorse or his children's books don't bring his victims back to life. They don't change his actions and the duty of society to punish him appropriately.

A separate question is whether the death penalty is appropriate at all. We have long felt that the death penalty ought to be part of society's arsenal in its efforts to defend peace and order. But recent disclosures of erroneous convictions have made us wonder whether our society can be certain that only guilty people have been put to death.

That's a separate issue. Perhaps state law should change with regard to the death penalty.

But capital punishment remains the law of the land, and the overwhelming evidence is that Williams murdered innocent victims in a way that's consistent with the law calling for punishment by death. Unless Schwarzenegger vows to put an end to all death penalty cases, we see no logical reason for him to spare Williams' life.

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/archive/2005/December/02/edit/stories/01edit.htm
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
74. A major misrepresentation in the OP.
"The prosecutor in the case was allowed to dismiss black jurors."

Well, prosecutors are always allowed to dismiss jurors, to one extent or another. But the implication here (and outright untruths told before) is that there were no black jurors in this case. That is false. The lie has also been told that this was an all-white jury. Totally false.

Why is the Save Tookie crowd relying on lies and misrepresentations to further their cause?

From the LA County District Attorney's response to this defendant's motion for clemency:

XIV.
JURY PANEL
In his petition for clemency, Williams makes the allegation that the prosecutor
“removed the only blacks from Stanley Williams’ jury. (Petition for Executive Clemency,
Dated November 8, 2005, 10). This statement, apparently made to suggest there was a racial
element to the trial, is factually incorrect. In fact, the documented evidence demonstrates
conclusively that there was a black juror on the case, and that that juror not only voted for guilt, but also voted for death.

Attached as an exhibit is a certified copy of the court minute order listing the names and
seat numbers of the respective jurors. (P. Exh. 16). Also attached as an exhibit is a certified copy of the death certificate of Juror #12, William James McLurkin. (P. Exh. 17). In that death certificate, the race of Mr. McLurkin is clearly listed as “Black.” In addition, Juror #1, Larry Sabala, has provided a sworn affidavit which confirms that one of the jurors was black. According to Mr. Sabala, “one of the jurors who served with me was a black man. It was obvious to everyone that he was a black man.” (P. Exh. 18).


http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf
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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #74
89. I'm not going to argue with you on specifics...
It would be a waste of energy that we could be devoting to the real opposition. You have your beliefs & I have mine; and neither of us is going to change the others' mind.

To me it's a sign of strength to do the harder thing. Anyone can rush to judgment; anyone can point out the obviousness of a crime; anyone can cry "An eye for an eye!"

But what about forgiveness -- a cornerstone of true morality? Most people believe that forgiveness is a virtue; and like all virtues -- it can be very difficult (otherwise it wouldn't be a virtue).

Forgiveness is, without question, the cornerstone of Christianity. Without the premise that Christ died so that our sins can be forgiven -- what would be the point of the religion?

Paul persecuted Christians. Lesser minds would have wanted him dead; but Jesus forgave him & made him a disciple. He was able to live out his life in the highest service of God & humanity. To me, this is an example of how society can act in an enlightened way today.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. A few answers...
First, I don't see anyone "rushing to judgment." This case has been going on for over twenty-five years, with numerous appeals before various courts and judges. I've read the trial facts, including the photos of items in evidence. Where's the rush to judgment?

Secondly, I do not claim to be a Christian, or part of any organized religious sect.

As for forgiveness, sure, you can do that. But I don't see where forgiveness calls for relaxing the judicial standards that have been set in this country by representative democracy (which, by the way, includes the jury who found this defendant guilty and sentenced him to death for his brutal crimes.)

I respect your opinion. I'm active in these threads mainly because I don't respect the people who are constantly misrepresenting the facts of the case, and deliberately spreading falsehoods about the system in general.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #89
93. Separation of Church & State.
You are making an argument for mercy based on religious doctrine. Do you really desire the union of Church & State? Most churches are against abortion and against gay rights.

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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #93
99. Then let's talk strictly within the system...
Why would the established law giving the governor the power to commute a death sentence be on the books if wasn't intended for use -- at the governor's considered discretion? And what would that discretion involve?
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #99
126. very good point, Peter Frank. "Why would the established law giving
the governor the power to commute a death sentence be on the books if wasn't intended for use -- at the governor's considered discretion?"


thank you!


peace and solidarity!
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #99
128. And ALL the governors, Dem & Rep both, of CA have refused clemency.
He has petitioned every governor. They have all turned him down. Could it be because the evidence is conclusive and the crimes are so brutal?
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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 11:13 PM
Original message
That doesn't answer my question. n/t
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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #128
138. That doesn't answer my question. n/t
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #99
137. It is part of the check sand balances of the criminal justice system.
That none of the governors have seen fit to use it for Tookie says something too, but you don't like what it says.
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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #93
100. And I wasn't speaking of the church...
Most churches have made a mess of Christianity. Jesus never mentioned abortion or homosexuality.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #100
109. You were definately refering to religious doctrines.
I suggest that you study what is meant by separation of church and state.
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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #109
136. I'm all for separation of church & state...
...and I'm not a friggin' fundie.

I was pointing out the parallels between secular and spiritual morays specifically re: forgiveness. Sorry you chose to only address one side of the equation.

I suggest you reread reply #89.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #136
142. LOL !! You were appealing to religious doctrine...
...to decide a civil matter. If God has forgiven him, that is between him and God. I hope he has made his peace with God. However, the fact that he refuses to snitch on the Crips suggests that he still clings to his sin. But I do not claim competence to judge his eternal destiny, so I am content to leave that to God.

Civil law, which is concerned ONLY with this world, has judged him - GUILTY. And it has not been in a rush. Almost a quarter of a century of appeals to make sure of the verdict and sentence.

The pardon/clemency power of a governor is part of the checks and balances of the criminal justice system. All of the system has agreed that Tookie is guilty and must die.
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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #142
161. Fuck you. I've got better things to do than argue with a non-neocon...
You really should read the board more before going off half cocked.

If you'd like to see a broader picture of my of my views, here's only one suggested reading (but I doubt you'll go beyond your preconceptions).

Does this sound like a person confused about the separation of church & state? -- http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5510352

If you don't read & post to this, I'll accept it as an apology. If you do read & post, I'll listen with great interest.

Kicking this just for you.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #161
172. Hey, YOU are the one who appealed to a religious doctrine.
You are the one who wants the courts and a governor to use a religious doctrine for the basis of a decision. All that post proves is that you are willing to use religion when it suits you and against it when it doesn't. The name for that is a hypocrite.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #161
180. Wheeeoo. Because I maintain Tookie is guilty, I'm a neo-con?? LOL. NT
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
97. MUST READ: "Our real heroes don't kill black kids"
A superb article on this case:

Our real heroes don't kill black kids

Celebrities and community activists are dishonestly painting romanticized portraits of men such as Stanley Williams.

December 4, 2005 latimes.com

By Joe R. Hicks, Joe R. Hicks is a social critic, commentator and vice president of Community Advocate Inc. He formerly directed the activities of the Los Angeles Human Relations Commission and Southern Christian Lead

LURKING BEHIND the question of "Should Tookie die?" being pondered by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger are the troubling attempts by some of Stanley Tookie Williams' supporters to present the Crips' purported co-founder as a role model for inner-city youth.

The effort is molded after the campaign to turn Mumia Abu-Jamal, a convicted cop-killer, into a political prisoner. Abu-Jamal now sits on Pennsylvania's death row with his case grinding its way through various levels of appeals. Two decades ago, Abu-Jamal was involved in a confrontation that resulted in the point-blank execution of Philadelphia Police Officer Daniel Faulkner. With eyewitnesses and the murder weapon on hand (Abu-Jamal's own gun), the prosecutor called it "the strongest homicide case I ever tried." A jury of two blacks and 10 whites took just six hours to render a guilty verdict.

The mists of political mythology (the bullet that killed the officer was a different caliber than Abu-Jamal's gun; someone else shot Faulkner; the police framed Abu-Jamal, etc.) now obscure a case that over the years has become a prime cause for the nation's leftist activists, including, of course, the Hollywood Left.

The list of celebrities advocating on behalf of Abu-Jamal includes Maya Angelou, Martin Sheen, Jesse Jackson, Spike Lee, Paul Newman, Tim Robbins and Oliver Stone. Hundreds of thousands of dollars have been contributed to the legal defense of Abu-Jamal — whom novelist Alice Walker bizarrely likened to Nelson Mandela.

Mythology and misguided celebrities also surround Williams, who was convicted and sentenced to death for the killing in February 1979 of Albert Owens, a clerk at a 7-Eleven store in Whittier, and for the murder one month later of Tsai-Shai Chen Yang, Yen-I Yang and Yu-Chin Yang Lin at their family-run motel in Los Angeles.

The facts are as clear as Williams' crimes were senseless and gory. The sawed-off shotgun used in the murders belonged to Williams. Others involved in the crimes fingered him as the shooter. Several witnesses testified that he bragged about the killings in gruesome detail. The jury that convicted Williams was racially mixed, and nothing indicates that his defense team was less than excellent.

Williams' appeals have been denied by the California Supreme Court, the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals (the most liberal appeals court in the nation) and the U.S. Supreme Court. Last week, the state Supreme Court heard a last-ditch appeal from Williams' attorneys and again rejected it.

The strongest case for clemency is made by Williams' activities in recent years while on death row. His supporters say that no matter what he may have done in earlier years, his later actions indicate that he has redeemed himself. This view was expressed in a slanted made-for-television movie "Redemption," in which Jamie Foxx portrayed Williams as an innocent man.

This is an argument that his own defense team wisely avoids making in its clemency petition to the governor — choosing to base its arguments not on evidence so many have already found conclusive, but on Williams being a changed man.

I applaud Williams' efforts, while incarcerated, to steer youngsters from the ruthless gang life. But the people who dishonestly paint folk hero portraits of men such as Abu-Jamal and Williams (and even of 50 Cent, the thug and drug dealer-turned-rapper whose chief claim to fame is surviving being shot nine times by a rival) would do far more good by hitting young people with another message: that personal responsibility and accountability must be a part of civilized society.

In 2003, when L.A. experienced a 23% drop in homicides, 39% of the city's 505 murder victims were black and 36% of the homicide suspects were black, though only 11% of the city's population is black. For five straight years, about 40% of L.A.'s homicide victims have been black. If the celebrities and community activists supporting Williams began lifting up real community heroes — such as teachers, police officers, members of the clergy, hardworking parents or veterans of the Iraq war — maybe we could begin to change the dynamics of neighborhoods suffering from the predatory effects of Tookie wannabes.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/sunday/commentary/la-op-tookie4dec04,0,2958733.story?coll=la-sunday-commentary

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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
102. Tookie Williams Case Dominates Black Press
Tookie Williams Case Dominates Black Press
JR Valrey,
New America Media, Dec 05, 2005

http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=c26f2f051b9e24147dc3768e8ffbd6b8

Editor's Note: For months, black newspapers have closely followed the fate of death row inmate Stanley 'Tookie' Williams, questioning the fairness of his trial and evaluating his gang-prevention work.

-snip-

Most, but not all, commentary in African American publications has favored granting clemency to Tookie, a five-time nominee for the Nobel Peace Prize and a co-founder of the notorious Crips street gang.

-snip-

Alemoru focused on the particular circumstances of the case that sent Tookie to death row, noting a familiar formula that has doomed countless black men in America: an all-white jury, inconsistent or contradictory eye-witness testimony and jail-house snitches.

"He was convicted by an all-white jury for the murders of four people in 1979 during two separate robberies. None of the physical evidence found at the crime scenes could be linked to Williams. A witness description of a suspect seen leaving one of the scenes did not fit Williams either," Alemoru wrote.

-snip-

"In his closing argument," Alemoru wrote, "Martin likened Williams to a Bengal tiger in the zoo and said that 'in his environment,' he would behave like the tiger in its natural habitat. The state Supreme Court later censured Martin twice for his racist practices. Death sentences he won in two other cases were overturned because of racism."

-snip-

***

JR Valrey is producer of the Block Report Radio Show and a contributing editor for Print This Page
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #102
104. Why do you continue to post false information?
Edited on Mon Dec-05-05 09:57 PM by hiaasenrocks
This article states: "He was convicted by an all-white jury..."

This is not true and has been demonstrated here many times.

Please stop misrepresenting this case.

EDIT:

XIV.
JURY PANEL
In his petition for clemency, Williams makes the allegation that the prosecutor
“removed the only blacks from Stanley Williams’ jury. (Petition for Executive Clemency,
Dated November 8, 2005, 10). This statement, apparently made to suggest there was a racial
element to the trial, is factually incorrect. In fact, the documented evidence demonstrates
conclusively that there was a black juror on the case, and that that juror not only voted for guilt, but also voted for death.

Attached as an exhibit is a certified copy of the court minute order listing the names and
seat numbers of the respective jurors. (P. Exh. 16). Also attached as an exhibit is a certified copy of the death certificate of Juror #12, William James McLurkin. (P. Exh. 17). In that death certificate, the race of Mr. McLurkin is clearly listed as “Black.” In addition, Juror #1, Larry Sabala, has provided a sworn affidavit which confirms that one of the jurors was black. According to Mr. Sabala, “one of the jurors who served with me was a black man. It was obvious to everyone that he was a black man.” (P. Exh. 18).
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #102
108. Lie #2:
"None of the physical evidence found at the crime scenes could be linked to Williams."

Bullshit. Read the evidence.

IV.
FIREARM EVIDENCE
One expended twelve-gauge shotgun shell was recovered by investigators during the
crime scene investigation at the Brookhaven Motel. (TT 1506-1507). This expended shell was
received as exhibit 9E at trial. (TT 1514, 1862-1863, 2300).

During the course of investigating the Brookhaven Motel murders, investigators
recovered Williams’ shotgun. (TT 1479-1489, 1691, 1863-1864, 1871-1872). This shotgun, a
twelve-gauge High Standard slide-action shotgun bearing serial number 3194397, was received
into evidence as exhibit 8. (TT 1487). In addition, a federal “Firearms Transaction Record”
was received into evidence as exhibit 33. (TT 1483). This document records Williams’
purchase of the shotgun, trial exhibit 8, on February 25, 1974. Williams signed the transaction record and used his California driver’s license for identification purposes when he purchased the shotgun. At trial, a certified copy of Williams’ driver’s license was received as exhibit 32.
(TT 1485).

At trial, a firearms expert testified that the expended twelve-gauge shotgun shell that
was recovered by investigators at the Brookhaven Motel, trial exhibit 9E, was fired from
Williams’ shotgun, trial exhibit 8, to the exclusion of all other firearms. (TT 1522-1523).
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #102
127. A section you didn't "snip"
I guess this wouldn't serve your misinformation campaign to show this is a racist venture. Hmmm.

From the article (for those who didn't click the link):

Not all commentators in the African-American press want Tookie to live. Joseph C. Phillips, on Blackamericaweb.com, decried civil rights leaders and Hollywood stars, who use the Williams case to turn "a murderer into a hero." Phillips zeroed in on the murder victims.

"Williams ... was convicted and sentenced to death for the 1979 slayings of Albert Owens, Yen-I Yang, his wife, Tsai-Shai Chen Yang, and their daughter, Yu-Chin Yang Lin," wrote Phillips. "Snoop, Mike Farrell, Danny Glover, Jamie Foxx and the other celebrity voices now raised in support of Williams offer a clear picture of the distorted moral vision of the Hollywood left. It is a vision that finds virtue contemptible and props up homicidal maniacs who write bad children's books as role models for the masses."

Phillips also takes aim at Tookie's books -- his clemency calling card -- disputing their effectiveness and popularity.

"The portrayal of Williams as some Pied Piper of Peace for the gang community also holds very little water," he writes. "A quick review of Book Scan shows the Tookie series of books have hardly been blockbusters. No one is reading his books, least of all his two sons, one of whom is serving time in San Quentin. The other was just arrested on charges of aggravated rape. Poor book sales are not reason to send someone to the execution chamber, but then Williams was not convicted of lackluster book sales. He was found guilty of shooting four innocent people in cold blood, a fact his supporters continue to forget."

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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #127
131. So nobody is reading his books. Why am I not surprised? NT
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #131
132. I would think that most responsible parents
wouldn't want this gang-founding, four-time murderer influencing their kids as part of his PR campaign designed to spare his life.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
103. LMFAO!!!!!!!! 102 Posts with like only 4 individual posters LOL LOL Maybe
Edited on Mon Dec-05-05 09:50 PM by OPERATIONMINDCRIME
this is getting a bit stale? :rofl:
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #103
112. LYAO w/the rest of the lynch mob... does it feel good? Can you taste...
... the blood that you so lust after?

I feel sorry for you. And I wish you mercy.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #112
113. Will you address the blood lust of
Edited on Mon Dec-05-05 10:01 PM by hiaasenrocks
Tookie Williams?

Why won't you address the LA County District Attorney's filing, which is complete with the trial details and photos of items in evidence?
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #113
155. yes. as soon as Mr Williams is given a fair trial.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #155
156. Please explain
how all of the appeals (listed below) failed to see that he received an unfair trial.


PROCEDURAL HISTORY AND APPELLATE REVIEW
To date, Stanley Williams’ case has received extensive legal scrutiny in both state and federal court. Since his conviction in 1981, Williams has pursued multiple appeals and habeas corpus petitions. In each and every instance, in both state and federal court, his conviction has been affirmed as appropriate and just.

• On April 18, 1980, the trial court granted Williams’ motion to substitute his hand-picked attorney, Joseph Ingber, as attorney of record in place of Gerald Lenoir.
• On January 21, 1981, the jury trial commenced and on March 13, 1981, the jury returned guilty verdicts of four counts of first degree murder and two counts of robbery. The jury also found the special circumstance allegations of robbery-murder and multiple murder to be true. Lastly, the jury found true the special allegations that defendant Williams personally used a shotgun and that a principal was armed with a firearm.
• On March 17, 1981, both parties having rested without presenting evidence at the penalty phase, argument was presented on behalf of the People and defendant Williams as to whether the penalty should be death or life imprisonment without possibility of parole. Following arguments and instructions of law by the Court on this issue, the jury, on March 18, 1981, returned a verdict of death as to each of the charged first-degree murders.
• On April 15, 1981, defendant Williams’ motions for a new trial and for modification of the verdict and findings imposing the death penalty were heard by the Court and denied. The trial court then sentenced Williams to death on counts 1, 2, 3 and 7.
• On April 11, 1988, on automatic appeal to the California Supreme Court, in the cases of People v. Stanley Williams, Crim. No. 21977, and In re Stanley Williams, Crim. No. 23806, consolidated under Case No. S004365, and published at (1988) 44 Cal.3d 1127, the imposition of the death penalty was affirmed and defendant Williams’ first habeas petition was denied following an evidentiary hearing.
• On January 18, 1989, the California Supreme Court denied defendant Williams’ second state habeas petition in Case No. S008526.
• On that same date, January 18, 1988, defendant Williams filed his first federal habeas petition in the United States District Court in Case No. CV89-00327SVW. The district court held that petition in abeyance while defendant Williams returned to the California Supreme Court with his unexhausted claims.
• On April 11, 1994, following another evidentiary hearing, the California Supreme Court denied defendant Williams’ third state habeas petition in Case No. S011868, published at (1994) 7 Cal.4th 572.
• On June 21, 1995, the California Supreme Court denied defendant Williams’ fourth state habeas petition in Case No. S039285.
• On December 21, 1988, defendant Williams returned to federal court and, following an evidentiary hearing, the United States District Court denied defendant Williams’ amended habeas petition in Case No. CV89-00327-SVW, and published its order at (1998) 41 F.Supp.2d 1043.
• On December 17, 1999, defendant Williams’ subsequent Rule 60(b) motion to reopen the judgment was denied, and the order was published at (1999) 1999 WL 1320903.
• On September 10, 2002, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit denied defendant Williams’ direct appeal and Rule 6 (b) motion in Case Nos. 99-99018 and 00-99001, published at (2002)306 F.3d 665.
• On September 9, 2004, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals amended the opinion and denied defendant Williams’ petition for rehearing and suggestion for rehearing en banc, published at (2004) 384 F.3d 567.
• On February 2, 2005, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals denied defendant Williams’ subsequent petition for rehearing and suggestion for rehearing en banc, published at (2005) 396 F.3d 1059.
• Finally, on October 11, 2005, the United States Supreme Court denied defendant Williams’ petition for writ of certiorari in Case No. 04-10500. As this historical accounting proves, Williams has benefited from a detailed and exhaustive review of all of his legal claims and each court has affirmed the guilty verdicts and affirmed the death sentence. In doing so, our courts, both state and federal, have given appropriate and serious consideration to Williams, consideration which Williams so violently denied each of his victims.

http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #112
120. "death penalty has become a sort of legal replacement for the lynchings...
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #120
121. FALSE claim. And there has been plenty of discussion.
The Crime Trends section of the U.S. Department of Justice - Bureau of Justice Statistics report states: "Since the death penalty was reinstated by the Supreme Court in 1976, white inmates have made up the majority of those under sentence of death." (Prisoners under sentence of death by race, Capital punishment, 1953-97)

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/gbjsw.txt


In 2004, 59 persons in 12 States were executed...

Of persons executed in 2004:
-- 36 were white
-- 19 were black
-- 3 were Hispanic (all white)
-- 1 Asian

Of persons under sentence of death in 2004:
-- 1,851 were white
-- 1,390 were black
-- 28 were American Indian
-- 32 were Asian
-- 14 were of unknown race.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cp.htm

Some charts for reference (source: U.S. Department of Justice - Bureau of Justice Statistics)



These next two are the most recent provided by the USDOJBJS (2002):

Despite there being more whites executed (and awaiting execution on death row) in the US, blacks were 7 times more likely than whites to commit homicide in 2002:



Blacks were 6 times more likely than whites to be murdered in 2002:



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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #112
130. Rushing To Judgement Is The Sign Of An Utter Fool
I must wonder if telling someone that is 100% against the DP all the time for any reason that they lust after blood merely because they find 100+post threads humorous due to the low number of unique posters would be considered rushing to judgment. Methinks it is.

And Please, LOL, don't feel sorry for me. :eyes:
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #130
133. Don't have any more time for your games... this is too serious.
I do feel sorry for you.

Bye.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #133
135. You feel sorry for him? When you have so lost your moral and...
...intellectual compass that you are not able to distinguish between guilt and innocence?

If you were simply against the DP, but willing to admit that Tookie is guilty, as the evidence, the courts, and all the rejected appeals show he is, then I would be able to respect you. I might disagree with you, but it would be polite.

But instead you are so blind that you will not see the obvious - Tookie is guilty - so you lose respect.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #135
153. She, and nofurylike, are incapable of saying
Edited on Mon Dec-05-05 11:59 PM by hiaasenrocks
this defendant is guilty for two reasons:

1. They claim they don't judge people. Which isn't true because they are judging people throughout this thread. They are judging you and me for our stance on this case. They are judging the prosecutor and others involved in the case, making unsubstantiated claims that race place a factor in the jury finding this defendant guilty.

2. They simply have no understanding of the evidence against this defendant, because they repeatedly refuse to review and comment upon the trial facts. ( http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf )

They have been duped by the Save Tookie PR stunt.
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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #135
163. My my my, what assumptions Silverhair!!!
I have read Sapphire Blue and nofurylike's posts through this discussion.

They have not presented a picture of Tookie as an innocent person.

They've both contended they want the man alive in jail without parole instead of the DP to continue the work he has done to dissuade youngsters from the gang lifestyle.





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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #163
164. You aren't following closely then.
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 02:28 AM by hiaasenrocks
This series of links starts with them promoting and defending the theory of Barbara Becnel. nofurylike is urging people to listen to the interview...they might be "surprised" at what they hear, she asks "what are you afraid of" to listen to the interview...she insists (without proof, mind you) that this defendant didn't get a fair trial...SapphireBlue says the fact that Becnel thinks this defendant is innocent "speaks volumes" and nofurylike responds that is "certainly does." Several of the other links in this list are references to their doubt about his guilt.

Please note that the first link, to a story about this defendant's supposed innocence, is provided by nofurylike, and in the next subthread, in response to someone telling her she would be more effective if she weren't arguing for his innocence, she tells him to listen to the interview.

Clear as day. Pay attention. You are missing a lot and making assumptions that are innacurate.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5519400&mesg_id=5521159

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5519400&mesg_id=5521535

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5519400&mesg_id=5522066

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5519400&mesg_id=5522197

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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #164
166. Ahem, I read your posts too hiassenrocks!!!
And I told you my position.

I said I am opposed to the DP.

I agreed Williams could be guilty

But I don't see a value in executing him.

I even asked you with another USA individual being culpable for killing over 2,000 US soldiers you wouldn't even answer if this person deserved the DP.

I won't put you on ignore, I want something to laugh at.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #166
173. "Could be guilty"???? How about IS guilty?
I have repeatedly stated that I can respect a principled anti-DP person, even if I disagree with them. I have no respect for those who try to claim the obviously guilty murderers are really victims of the system. A person with that view has indeed lost their moral compass.
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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #163
165. Silverhair appears to be a RED 'Hair'ing
Edited on Tue Dec-06-05 02:38 AM by Peter Frank
sp edit


Man! I remember when the RED Menace was the Communists!
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #165
177. Getting angry aren't you? Bad for your blood pressure.
I just don't have any respect for the people who are pushing the "Tookie is innocent" line.
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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #177
185. Please show where I've claimed him innocent. n/t
And when you find that I haven't -- please STFU
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #133
140. Looks Like You Have All The Time In The World To Me. Just Sayin.
And I have given you no reason to feel sorry for me, so I implore you, please refrain from the condescending ignorance as it just makes you look silly.

Goodnight.

:hi:
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #112
159. Lynch mob? You mean a legal trial with appeals.
Don't confuse the two.
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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #112
168. Sadly, blood-lust is the last refuge of the weak individual...
...let's call him Jake.

Jake makes a virtue out of lazy vengeance. He loves spouting off about the crimes of others & wants his day as a visitor at the gallows. He feels comforted by the fact that he's not alone while chanting over & over, "Kill him!"

Jake has no use for honest exchange of thought because that would mean he might have to think outside of his own experience. Worse, e may even have to go through the pains of introspection. It's really hard to fit in when you think independently of a gang.

So Jake, secure in knowing he's not alone & insecure in going it alone finds comfort in chanting the collective mantra, "Kill him!"

How easily & often does vengeance pass for virtue? Just ask the home grown jihadists.


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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #168
181. You want honest exchange? Fine, you can begin by responding...
...to the many FACTS concerning Tookie's guilt that I and others have posted.

Or you can continue to avoid those facts and call people names.
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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #181
184. Read again...
...I never denied his guilt.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #103
114. And tommorrow morning nofurylike will post the two day countdown...
...of this same thread, telling the same lies, and we shall be off and running again.

However, I do notice that they have shut up about Wesley Baker.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #114
115. True. Just a few more days of lies to endure. n/t
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Clara T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
122. Life


So very fragile.
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #122
124. Very true.
And I'd bet the victims of defendant Williams would agree.

RIP:

Tsai-Shai Yang
Yen-I Yang
Yee-Chen Lin
Albert Lewis Owens
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #122
139. yes
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #139
152. Will you be so kind as to
give us some examples of ways that this defendant could pay restitution to the families of the people he murdered, assuming he is granted clemency?

I would be interested in reading your thoughts on this.

I'd also be interested in reading your comments on the trial facts.

http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
141. PLEASE EMAIL THE GOVERNOR: governor@governor.ca.gov
Email: governor@governor.ca.gov
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #141
143. PLEASE CALL TH E GOVERNOR: 916-445-2841
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #143
144. PLEASE FAX THE GOVERNOR: 916-445-4633
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #144
146. PLEASE SIGN THE PETITION FOR CLEMENCY:
Please sign the petition for clemency
http://www.petitiononline.com/stw4804/petition.html

64,286 signatures now
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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #143
171. called him!
and told him that Stan "Tookie" Williams, is a murderous SOB, who founded one of the most notorious gangs in US history. He has shown no repetence for those murders, and refuses to help law enforcement track down gang members, or describe in detail the inner workings of the Crips. His redemption is merely jailhouse redemption, and he only trying to save his skin. I am neither always opposed, or always for the Death Penalty, I think that it is case specific, and if there is a case that warrants the DP, this one is it. He has had numerous appeals, to both the state and federal courts, all have failed, the USSC said nope, and so Mr. Governor, should you to his clemency request. Let Mr. Williams, meet whatever God he subscribes too, and let it be the judge of his redemption.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #171
178. Excellent !! I will call later today too, with the same idea. NT
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #141
145. How come you quit talking about Wesley Baker? NT
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #141
151. I contacted him and urged him to stand for justice
and decline clemency.

I did this after reviewing the case file.

Will you do the same, and comment on the trial facts?

http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

Thanks in advance.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
147. Didn't you post some thread in September about Frances Newton?
Didn't you claim she was innocent too, even though the evidence was completely conclusive?
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hiaasenrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
157. On the "racism" charges being tossed around here.
Will you explain how racism accounts for the following in this case:

1. One expended twelve-gauge shotgun shell was recovered by investigators during the crime scene investigation at the Brookhaven Motel.

2. A twelve-gauge High Standard slide-action shotgun bearing serial number 3194397, was traced to Williams. In addition, a federal “Firearms Transaction Record” records Williams’ purchase of the shotgun, on February 25, 1974. Williams signed the transaction record and used his California driver’s license for identification purposes when he purchased the shotgun.

3. A firearms expert testified that the expended twelve-gauge shotgun shell that was recovered by investigators at the Brookhaven Motel, was fired from Williams’ shotgun, to the exclusion of all other firearms.

4. Two expended twelve-gauge shotgun shells were recovered by investigators during the crime scene investigation at the 7-Eleven. Although these two shells lacked sufficient identifying characteristics to be conclusively matched to Williams’ shotgun, the firearms expert testified that they were consistent with having been fired from that weapon. Moreover, the firearms expert did not find any dissimilarity that would exclude trial exhibits 9C and 9D from having been fired from Williams’ shotgun.

5. A jury of nine caucasians, one black, one Filipino, and one Latino found Williams guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in four homicides, and unanimously voted for the death penalty. Appeals in numerous courts before many judges over a quarter of a century have all concurred with the original jury's findings.

Let's just start with those. I eagerly await your answers. Thanks in advance.
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Che_Nuevara Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
160. sample letter to send to governor
Feel free to use any or all of this text in a letter to Gov. Ahnuld



The Honorable Arnold Schwarzenegger:


I write to you in regards to the inmate Mr. Stanley "Tookie" Williams. I have become aware of the circumstances of this case, including Mr. williams' upcoming scheduled execution, and would like to express my deepest, most earnest objections to this execution.

Despite questions surrounding his trial over 25 years ago, and despite protesting his innocence in regards to the crimes for which he is condemned, Mr. Williams readily admits he "was a criminal" and played a crucial role as a "co-founder of the Crips." He describes his life of crime as "nihilist" and "wretched" (New York Times interview, 30 Nov 2005).

In the last 25 years, however, Mr. Williams has been 'fighting' from the other side: against gang violence. The Tookie Peace Accord is a groundbreaking step in healing the wounds caused by gang violence. His series of books, "Tookie Speaks Out Against Gang Violence", are geared especially towards children who are vulnerable to violent gang culture. He holds talks with troubled youth over the telephone and has "vow to spend the rest of life working toward solutions" to violence among youth (The Apology, www.tookie.com ).

All legal and political issues aside, Mr. Williams is a perfect candidate for executive clemency. It is clear that Mr. Williams has something to offer our society: solutions to the problem of violence that threatens our youth. Stanley Williams is not an enemy of society. He is honestly and passionately working to make America and the world safer for everyone, especially children.

You have the power to stop this man's execution and allow him to continue to help the youth of today and the citizens of tomorrow. Saving this man's life has the potential to save the lives of thousands in the future. Granting clemency to Stanley Williams would be a bold, strong move to take a stand against gang violence and protect the interests of the youth of the nation and the world. Please consider these children and offer mercy to Mr. Stanley Williams.


Sincerely,
YOUR NAME
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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #160
169. Excellent!...
Maybe add that Arnold's voters might appreciate him standing up for the victims who don't have to be, if Williams is allowed to continue reaching out to gang members.
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Che_Nuevara Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 04:06 AM
Response to Original message
167. Justice topic thread on the issue
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
174. Wesley Baker has gotten the reward he earned by his murder.
He has been executed.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
175. Poll status. 68% No / 32% Yes 15178 responses at 6:05 AM CST
That poll at MSNBC has been holding pretty steady. Granted - It isn't scientific, but it is not without meaning either.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
176. Time to post your "Day Two" countdown thread. NT
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Paradise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 08:02 AM
Response to Original message
179. kick! n/t
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
183. new thread
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
186. locking
see today's thread
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