Name 2 things tookie williams and adolf hitler have in common?

they were both "nominated" for a nobel peace prize and they both wrote a book in prison. There are more choices available.


Msongs
www.msongs.com/chinamart.htm

Well said.

You deserve to be nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize for this post!

:evilgrin:

eom

Anybody can be nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize.

Anybody in prison can write a book.

...of Karla Faye Tucker. I still call it mocking the condemned, and I think it's contemptible.

You simply cannot discount that factual comparison. Williams is definitely a mass murderer.

to the victim's family, and taken responsibility for her crimes. Unlike Tookie.

...condemned for. If he didn't commit them, how can he "take responsibility" for them? This sounds like the logical dilemma imposed on Saddam Hussein-- "if he says he's disarmed, we'll know he's lying." If Williams doesn't take responsibility for the crimes, we'll know he's guilty?

Whether he's guilty or not is irrelevant to the issues of whether we should be in the business of killing prisoners of the state, and whether we should mock them on their way to the gallows or accord them some respect and dignity.

Everyone agrees, I hope, that if he's innocent then he shouldn't be executed, but a lot of people think that he shouldn't be executed even if/although he's guilty.

To those people, whether he's guilty or not isn't relevant to the question "should he be executed", although it's obviously relevant to the question "should he spend time in prison, and if so how much".

They're not a "most" - in the US, the death penalty still enjoys majority support, I believe - but there are a lot of them.

For reference, I think that he's almost certainly guilty, that he shouldn't be executed because the death penalty is inherently immoral, and that he should spend the rest of his life in jail.

He is not innocent. How can you get behind someone who doesn't take responsibility for his own actions, and claims to be innocent? I respect being anti-death penalty, but this whole case revolves around his "redemption". there is no redemption. He's just a thug and a liar. As far as the death pentalty, I don't believe in it, but I'm more or less neutral. I could care less about murderers. Sorry.

We now know for certain that an innocent man was put to death a few years back.

We also know for certain that a bunch of Il Death Row inmates were completely innocent.

respect they gave the people they murdered. And they will get it from me. In abundance!

They both are human

They both are men

They both exist(ed) in the northern hemisphere

---

Here's some differences:

Tookie didn't spark a world war

Tookie wasn't responsible for the Holocaust

Tookie has repented for his misdeeds

Tookie has done a lot for society since his misdeeds

Tookie refuses to admit his misdeeds. He has never once demonstrated regret for murdering four human beings in cold blood.

i know nothing about the case. from my understanding, tookie was many miles away, with several witnesses to that fact...
the usa murdered 100 thousand people in iraq. And there was no justification for it. No wmd's. Thus every goddam bush supporter should be executed. every single one. for cold blooded murder.

which, as you well know, is a higher standard than required for conviction.

His gun was used as the murder weapon in the execution of the hotel employees-the Yang family.

the gun was found under his step fathers bed. Tookie lived with his step father.

His step father provided his alibi. He fell apart on the stand, and later admitted that he couldn't account for Tookie's whereabouts.

There were three minority groups represented on the jury. And one was African-American.

He had his own attorney, not a court appointed one.

His accomplices testified against him.

Witnesses verified key details; clothing vehicles, ect.....

Notes written by Tookie planning further murders were discovered, as well as a planned escape involving the murder of prisoners and guards.

You can view the notes in the first link below.

Educate yourself lest you wreck yourself. He is guilty. I don't believe in the Death penalty, but no one should believe that this maniac is innocent. And until he takes responsibility for his vicious crimes, I don't give a damn.


http://www.lacountyda.org/pdf/swilliams.pdf

http://www.knowgangs.com/blog/tookie.htm

I'd say okay....
admit your crime, apologize to the families, agree to write books to pay restitution
AND.... this is most important..... go state's evidence on the rest of your killer friends in an effort to save some more lives
BUT.... mr. reformed says has no interest in being a snitch.....
so be it.... i guess you have no real interest in clemency

right now!
There was evidence to convict him BEYOND A SHADOW of a doubt!

http://www.knowgangs.com/blog/tookie.htm

No... he only created one of the most violent gangs in American history!

:popcorn:

And, no I'm not comparing Nelson Mandela with either of the other two.
I have little, if any, sympathy for Tookie but killing him will accomplish nothing but contribute to the barbarism that inspires the death penalty.

I'm not sure I see your point. I guess comparing a man who is to be executed by the state for a heinous crime that he committed 20+ years ago with the worst mass murderer the world has ever known is supposed to be witty or erudite, I must be out of the loop:eyes:

Hitler killed a lot more, but killing four people, three in a single crime, definitely fits the definition of mass murderer.

And Hitler probably never physically killed anybody, so if we go just by giving the orders, Williams probably killed a lot more than just the four he was convicted of physically murdering.

since "the worst mass murderer the world has ever known" committed his crimes. aren't you being a bit harsh with him? Yeah, you are "out of the loop".

I'm out of the loop? Even I know Tookie wasn't around 60+ years ago:eyes:

I also think it's trashy to hang around like a gallows bird and chortle over it. I personally find our fearless 'leader' to have much more in common with old Adolph.

I've pleaded with the governor to stop this and I hope that he does. There could be hell to pay if they don't...

I've also contacted Swarzenegar to tell him death is justified in this case.

George W. Bush
Stan Tookie Williams
Adolph Hitler

Murderers all.

than the good that Williams does.

Did I say I was afraid?

I'm a native of Los Angeles. I lived with that stuff since the 70s. But the prisons and other areas may be a problem.

The point is I don't agree with the death sentence in this case. That is the reason I asked the governor to grant Tookie clemency. The good he has done and would continue to do is more important than the evil he did or they say he did. I think life imprisonment is punishment enough in this case.

It's all about justice.

How the hell does the Death Penalty have anything to do with justice.

Do you mean to say that countries without the death penalty have no justice?

Besides, equating a gang leader killing 4 people to Hitler is outrageous. Does that make Jeffrey Dahmer worse than Hitler?

How about some proportion in the arguments?

all aspects and levels of society. The only way to accomplish that is with the death penalty.

Nations with no death penalty, do not have justice.

and probably worse because you have to forever feel like a stupid piece of $hit for getting yourself there. And if you find your conscience, you have to live with self-loathing for what you did until you die. I think it's much more punishment.

Mr. Williams' life should be spared and we should possibly abolish the death penalty. Do YOU know for a fact that the guy is guilty?

Hey, we should probably just agree to disagree.

I'm so certain of it, I'd be willing to stick the needle in his arm myself with a clear conscience.

You weren't there and they say the evidence is circumstantial. In a state where a court of law allowed OJ and Robert Blake to walk, despite OVERWHELMING evidence, California has no business putting anyone to death.

evidence.

I don't think you've looked at the evidence. He's guilty and he shows no remorse. To me, that means clemency is not even a possibility.

But seriously folks......."Death Penalty has nothing at all to do with vengeance"

:rofl:

more than 2/3 of the country agrees with me.

Doesn't mean it was based on sound principles.

and don't expect to see any changes any time during the course of the rest of my life.

USA: Banned then UnBanned in 76'?

No changes?

The ban was court instituted, not legislature institued, and it was overturned.

Illinois had a courrupt system,. Tehre was no ban, just a moratorium. The DP will be used again in Illinois, count on it.

Overall, just over two-thirds of the populace support the DP, and have supported it in those approximate numbers throughout my lifetime.

Where does thie 2/3 come from? Death Penalty supporters are a minority according to widely reported recent polls.

and probably could be persuaded to it for a pedophile/murderer, but you know what began me thinking that it's wrong to execute even if the person is proven guilty, beyond a shadow of a doubt?

Hearing about Governor George W. Bush and the state of Texas with the cavalier and uncaring attitude towards executions. hearing about how he was mocking Karla Faye Tucker's fear of execution is when I really began to despise the idiot son of an asshole. And if he believes in the Death Penalty, then it MUST BE WRONG.

If the real thug and killer "believes in the Death Penalty, then it must be wrong."

Exactly, Bully Bush should be in jail and having a cell next to Tookie in my mind.

Until they are cell to cell, Tookie or no one else needs the barbaric DP.

And throw Kenny Boy Lay in the cell next to them.

They all should remain in jail for the rest of their natural life

Have you noticed that Bush Crooks NEVER admit that they are responsible for anything except for Tax Cuts for the Wealthy, but that is A OK with Amerika.

i'm being argumentive, but surely the crime against those innocents outweighs the crime tookie committed. and if it's justice we're after, what about the big lie told by the usa mass media, to enable bushinc to seize power? why consume public psychic energy on a man who'll die in jail no matter what when the punks who 'swift boated' a legit us pres contender in a pigmedia assisted plot are still at it, fukking up democracy? What about the goats who used val plame to punish her husband (for trying to prevent a great injustice from occurring)? And in direct reference to tookie williams, why aren't those men who cold bloodedly had crack cocaine developed in gov labs then had US inner cities flooded (during the easy going 70's) with the crap, at the same time public schools and other helpful things like head start were being targeted for destruction, why aren't those punks in our crosshairs? what about hurricain katrina? What about ohio? what about the probable fact that the 911 disaster was staged?
i agree with you tookie williams (and oj simpson too) should be dealt with harshly, but only AFTER those real bastards who are fukking the entire planet out of its future are punished. Kill the real nasty psychos first, THEN let's kill tookie- but you know and i know we'll waste our energy on someone who might very well be a victim as much as those people he killed, cuz that's the way the piggy wants it.

brought about by narrow minded categorical thinking.

Kohlberg noted that most people never developed to the higher levels of moral reasoning- most got stuck around stage 3 and 4.

More than a few people on this thread lend support to that notion.

Twenty years ago, I was more anti-DP than anybody I've seen on this thread.

I grew up and faced reality.

When people think with their gut rather than with their mind, decency usually isn't a consideration.

of a compelling fashion trend targeted to young males and symbolic of violence.

Not that I support Tookie's execution.

but even as a death penalty opponent I find this man a particularly unsypathetic person. He has accepted no responsiblity and murdered true innocents. He derseves to be in prison for the rest of his natural life.

While the OP has a valid point that Williams' being nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize (which I was unaware of) and writing a book doesn't necessarily mean he's some great humanitarian, using Hitler as a comparison is just, as you said, rather tacky. If the OP had provided us with a list of other notably evil NPP winners and others who've written books, with Hitler simply an entry on the list, it would be far less tacky.

I'm for taking him (as well as every other death-row inmate) off death row, simply because it's wrong for the government to put people to death.

Though, you could even go so far as to say that his being a "particularly unsympathetic person" makes him an especially good candidate for clemency, in the sense that it would serve to show that even the worst of criminals are not to be put to death by the government.

Both are mass murderers.
Both took cruel delight in their victims' agonies.

And soon both will be dead.

Tookie wants you to believe he's Smoochy. Well, in a few days, death to smoochy.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

A little more specificity in the post would help :)

And i guess the mods didn't like it. It wasn't you I was talking about.

:nuke:

forget point number 1.

In 30 years your grandchildren (or great grandchildren) will ask in disbelief if it's really true that back in 2005 we executed people despite knowing the process was deeply biased and flawed, we banned gay marriage, we burned fossil fuels with little regard for their dwindling supply or how badly we dirtied the air and the sea and the land, we invaded other countries on false pretenses as if that would have no consequence, we left a vast part of our society out of the health care system, we allowed children to suffer from malnutrition in the midst of our ever mounting consumerism, we had an economy that generated yachts and chalets for executives while many workers were paid wages insufficient to bring them up out of poverty, we flirted with teaching religious myths in our public schools, and we allowed the imposition of a hackable electronic balloting system without any means of vote verification.

You may blush when you have to admit that it's all true, but you will be able to say that you did what you could to bring that time to an end.

a group of people around them to defend their worthless asses.

as much as expressing concern and a growing sense that the DP is wrong.

to make that point. Death rows all over the country have innocent men languishing in cells, waiting for the unjust end to their, usually miserable, lives. Find them, and rally to their defense. I'm just saying.

Whether or not the man deserves the fate that is facing him, don't you think comparing him to Hitler might be a TAD harsh?

You must have graduated magna cum laude with a history degree from one of our finest institutions of higher learning. It takes a level of insight and analysis not seen since the waning days of the Roman Empire to equate someone to Hitler on an internet message board. Your deep historical analysis brings to mind the creativity of Mozart paired with the dogged determination of Michael Faraday. The elegant simplicity of your argument, that so-and-so equals Hitler, will revolutionize the internets and have our children speaking for decades to come of one brave Dr. Msongs, who changed the way we thought about both the California justice system and Europe during the World Wars. I think you deserve a Nobel Prize of your own.

:toast:

The Tookie groupies have been saying he should be given clemency because he has been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize and because he wrote some books. The comparison to Hitler is to show that the Nobel nomination and book writing has little value.

There are NO qualifications for being nominated, and to be a nominator one only needs be a professor, or a national legislature, or a judge.

but then again, we are a bloody people.

They also belonged to groups that hate life. Come on with the support of a gang leader already. I appreciate that he has seemed to reform himself and I don't think he should die at all. But let's stop glorifying this prick.

This is not necessarily in response to the OP, just some of the bullshit I hear from fellow libs.

It that, in DU, it's impossible to concoct an accurate response to it without having the post deleted. Ah well. I'll have to settle with shaking my head in disgust.