Need Advice -- Considering Rejoining the Army as an Officer

Good day, everyone. I need the sage council of some of the finest people I know -- namely members of DU. So, here goes...

As some of you may, or may not, know I am a veteran of the Army with about 5 years of service. I got out of the Army early last year. Currently I have a fairly good job (with a defense contractor) for the area I live in making well above the minimum wage. While my pay is quite decent and I have full benefits -- medical, dental, vision, etc. -- I am the sole income provider in my household. My wife and I have no children, but she is unable to work due to having severe rheumatoid arthritis. Of course, as I stated earlier, this leaves me with being the sole bread winner. Furthermore, I have to maintain medical insurance because of my wife's medical bills.

I'm 27-years old and about a year to two years away from having my degree in political science. (I'm sure it comes as no surprise that I would major in this particular subject! Go figure -- I'm also politically ambitious.) I earned most of my college credit while serving on full-time active duty in the Army as an enlisted man in the Field Artillery. I was able to due so because the Army had just started a program by which I could take classes online and they paid for tuition AND books. However, by the time I got out last year, I did not have time to finish my degree.

While in the Army I achieved the rank of sergeant. I was actually on track to be promoted to the next rank, but circumstances made it necessary for me to get out of the Army when they offered me an ultimatum. "Put your grandmother in a nursing home and deploy to Iraq or get out of the Army." Though, I was career orientated and had plans to become an officer, this changed everything for me. It's pretty clear what decision I made, as I was the only person willing and able to look after my grandmother. This is no longer an issue now, but with the price of gas, rent, utility bills, and medical bills (supplemented by medical insurance); I'm having a very, very rough time financially holding it all together. (I don’t have any credit cards whatsoever either…) That leads to the decision I am trying to make right now and why I've come to you guys for advice.

As you may have heard, in the last month the Army has been on a campaign to recruit former veterans back into the military with the condition that they get to keep their rank and do not have to repeat basic training -- so long as it has been less than four years since they got out of the service. In addition to the mailing I have received emails and phone calls. I have stated that the only way I will ever join again is as an officer. When I got out my separation papers, DD-214, stated that I owed the Army Reserve zero years, months, or days. Further, it said in my paperwork that I was NOT to be transferred into the Inactive Ready Reserves (IRR). Apparently there was a mix-up somewhere, and one of the recruiters I've talked to has admitted this, but Army Human Resources Command (HRC) have me listed as still being IRR. The recruiter recommended that I join a reserve unit, rather than correct HRC’s “mistake”! (I am somewhat curious as to whether this was a "mistake" or not. I digress.) Like I said earlier though – there is NO WAY I am ever going to be an enlisted man again.

So, I have been toying with the idea of going into the Army as an officer through the ROTC. With my prior service and as a college junior, I would not have to take the basic courses. I would have to take the advanced courses. I would also double the amount of money I make a month because of the GI Bill, ROTC stipend, and simultaneous membership in the Reserves. Doing so would greatly receive the financial stress that I am laboring under, and upon completion I can sign up as a member of the Active, Reserve, or National Guard elements of the Army. With the extra money, I can also pay for my wife to go to college and save money for law school. (Likewise, I would also be able to complete my degree in political science.)

The problem I'm having is that I cannot find information on the Internet regarding what it is like to be an officer. Quite honestly, I don't trust the Army's website to give me the lowdown, and I don't trust recruiters to be upfront either. So, I am wondering what former veterans and veterans' spouses may be able to tell me. I am also curious as to what further advice you guys may have and/or if you can point out angles that I am not seeing. If you have any questions, please post and I will try to clarify my situation.

Thanks so much,

S&F

ON EDIT: I am meeting with the Army ROTC recruiting officer for the local university tommorrow at 11:30 AM. Just thought I should let you guys know this.

I doubt that any of the hundreds of other DU Veterans do either.

there are other reasons to enter the military. And many many who are in the military don't ever kill anyone-they just help their buddies keep from getting killed. Know this from my brother and my neighbor, both Viet Nam vets.

all enemies, foreign and domestic...that was what motivated me, frankly. You are correct, the remark was unkind, and uncalled for.

While I agree that the statement was a little crass, protecting your buddies will probably entail killing Iraqis. It's a nice system they have. Toss you AND your buddies in to a hornet's nest, let you fight it out while they attend fundraisers, joke about WMDs and giggle about the "haves and the have-mores."

Maybe the poster should have said "If you want to kick in civilian's front doors and harassing old ladies" because there is a good chance that is what he'll be doing.

What I really believe is that if you throw yourself into a system in which you must follow orders, then you must also give serious consideration to the morality of those who are giving those orders.

I do not trust this administration in particular and I think they are as close to evil as we have had so far in my memory. So if you want to make your skills and even your life available to them to use as a tool for whatever they deembest, than I think you are making a huge mistake and must even bear the weight of the deaths that may be on your hands in the future.

You get yourself thrown into Iraq, Afghanistan or many other places where we are viewed as an occupying, facistic, imperialistic empire and you will be, as the poster said, forced to fight for your buddies and your own life. But that doesn't mean that those whose life you take are evil. You will be in an oppositional relationship with them through no fault of your own, but their deaths will be just as real and calamitous to their families as yours would be.

Sorry for the crass answer and response. But I don't think invading sovereign countries and killing people is defending your country.

And I did serve in the Army, 1982-2004, both active and reserve. I'd rather go work at Wal*Mart than go back. I didn't dislike serving in the Reserves, but the truth is that I wouldn't follow our current Commander in Chief to the exit door of a burning building. That's why I got the hell out as soon as I got my 20 year letter.

Needless to say, my sergeant major didn't appreciate it very much, even though I gave him AMPLE heads-up.

I have to ask, have you ever served?

What a jerk off.

.

The knowledge that the current Administration wants wholesale slaughter doesn't really undercut the desire of a professional soldier to continue to defend his country for the remainder of his career--which ought to last well beyond the present neocon infestation.

Being willing to die or kill to defend the Constitution is arguably a good thing, though I oppose war and since my days in uniform have become something close to a pacifist.

Rather than scolding the soldiers exclusively, we might spare some outrage for the rest of the citizenry who contine to tolerate the * dynasty's excesses. That could be called the endorsement of slaughter, too.

He served 20 years in the Army, and rose through the ranks from private to CW3. He had a chance to become a commissioned officer, but decided to become a warrant officer instead. He told me the reason why was because as a commissioned officer he could be ordered anywhere, even not in his area of expertise. He was into computers, and wanted to stay with that; he found if he became a warrant officer he would stay with computers, and would get the same pay as a commissioned officer (I think his pay at CW3 was the same as a major). He did two tours of duty in Viet Nam as an enlisted man, and retired in 1980. Things might have changed since then, but I thought you might be interested in his reasoning for doing what he did.

I had considered the route of the warrant officer, but decided that it was not in my temperament or interests to pursue that course. Plus the shit they put those guys through when they're training to become one -- no thank you.

But, I surely understand the monetary inducement.

Two words: anthrax vaccinations (they're coming BAAAAAAAAACK!)

Two more words: Depleted Uranium (you want to have kids someday? Start researching special education programs now!)

That assumes that you won't get blown up--and don't think you aren't at risk even in "behind the wire" jobs. The Green Zone is not safe, only safer than getting into a Humvee and driving around as moving target practice for the the guys that do not want us over in the sandbox.

One more time: Don't do it.

I've had several anthrax shots already from when I was in previously.

Depleted uranium is definitely an issue, as I believe it attributed to GWS, which that bastard Colon Powell tried to say did not exist.

I don't at all relish the thought of getting blown up, but... It would be a year before I start ROTC in fall of 2006, and then two years of college after that. After which I would have to go to whatever branch Officer's Basic Course. I should say that I am considering Military Intelligence.

Decades. And there are a lot of good things to say about the service, from a broad perspective. But given this nut running the country, you can't be sure that you'll end up in the crash course learning Farsi at the Defense Language Institute, in preparation for some shenanigans in Iran. And Intel is one of those jobs where they pull your life apart--if you have any secrets, you won't have nary a one by the time they are done with you. They get up your ass, up your neighbors' asses, and go through your family like the school nurse looking for head lice.

You have to make your own decisions, of course, but if you were my child, I'd be bailing you out of your money woes, and if I couldn't do that, I'd be sitting down with you, going over your household budget, and looking hard for cost savings so that you could keep your head above water.

Morale is bad, and getting worse. Probably not a good situation for you to get into--you know, being ex-E, how the shit rolls down hill. Newbie officers get it, too, they just don't let it show as often. And think of your wife--you're gonna put ten years of worry on her for every tour you do in the sandbox. Think hard before you do this, please...!

This is definitely one of the most difficult decisions I have ever made, and I need all of the advice that I can get before I make it.

I know that the recruiters -- officers or NCOs -- will not be forthcoming with me, so I figured I would turn to DU military veterans and members.

There are lots of MI lieutenants and not a lot of MI battalion slots open to them. They will send you to a battalion S-2 billet, and you'll be accounting for SOIs and comsec gear until battalion main gets overrun.

And since your enlisted service was in field artillery, you're very likely to wind up in a field artillery battalion.

If I was going to go back in as an officer right now, I would choose one of two branches: quartermaster and transportation. They are directly applicable to the civilian sector. (As is Military Police, but I do not want to be a cop.)

not with War Criminals and fascists running the show.
Iraq might be bad but these creeps may have even worse things in store.
...seriously!!

Not right now.

Just don't.

In reality, if I was asked to go back in, I might consider it. I've been out for 15 years though. Isn't that foolish?

You have a lot more to lose than I. Seriously, think long and hard and get lots of feedback before you commit. Please?

Has that changed?

If an officer working for me had it, they had it. If they didn't, they didn't. It really is more a function of personality, intelligence, leadership (listen to that Chief, kid!) and judgment than anything else. I've had stellar performers from Academy, OCS, ROTC and mustang commissionings, and I have also had total rocks from all of those sources.

almost always made the best officers. I will not offer advice on something that may be life or death to someone I do not know, but if you do, good luck and be safe.

Olaf

If anyone is looked upon with disfavor it is the West Pointers, because they have a reputation for having their -- shall we say? -- noses in the air.

The term may have been used with other academy grads, too, but it always made me laugh.

Funny how those guys can put their noses in the air, while at the same time having their heads up their asses!

FWIW, I've known plenty of West Point infantry officers who were dumber than George Bush, and that's saying a lot. If you've ever had the displeasure of working for someone with half your IQ, you understand where I'm coming from. They're also WAY over-represented at fundie church.

...was the shocking level of immaturity compared to ROTC, OCS or fleet accession candidates. It's almost as though they go in to the Academy as eighteen year olds, they learn a shitload of facts, and come out four years later as eighteen year olds in possession of a shitload of facts. Some overcome and adapt quickly, others have a harder time coming up to snuff on the maturity scale. If an ensign is found puking in the Admiral's wife's rosebush after spending too much time around the punchbowl at an official reception, the odds are good that kid is USNA.

The strict discipline and childish little rules prevent them, during those key four years, from making a lot of the stupid mistakes that college kids make (and learning the tough lessons therefrom), and insulates them, to their disadvantage, from the real world. They've never had to pay rent, pay bills, manage a checkbook beyond dealing with their own little pissant expenses (two gym sweatshirts, or one sweatshirt and that CD I want?), or make hard decisions about their education experience--do I buy that textbook, or do I go out and get trashed with my buddies? Do I skip that class (no skipping at the Academy) and try to hit the books hard later? They don't hold down a part-time, or even full-time, job like lots of kids working their way through school, and their leadership development is somewhat manufactured in a closed, insular, unrealistic culture.

Personally, I realize there is a long tradition involved, but I do not think the American people get value for the education dollar out of the Service Academy system. They get amusing sports programs for each military service culture, but I think the cost-benefit is just not there, in a broad sense. However, I don't see the Academy system going away any time soon, if ever. It's a show-and-tell jewel for the DOD, and gives them a platform to highlight the strong suits of the respective services. And, under this regime, the Monkey has used the captive audiences of blank faced children to spout all sorts of absurd bullshit, without getting anything but Pavlovian applause no matter how foolish his pronouncements, because if they do anything else, there will be hell to pay.

Your CO will be a West Pointer and make your life a living hell.

Please...

They cna snatch you back at any time as an NCO.

So there's your choice, either go back now as an officer or take the chance they'll snatch you back later at your prior rank.

If that says no obligation, they can try to bullshit him all they want, but that is the CONTROLLING document. They'd lose in court, and odds are, they wouldn't even try it if he threatens a challenge.

I smell a con job, frankly--the recruiters are not above doing that sort of thing. Desperation can make people do, and say, the damndest things.

All military committtments are for a minimum of eight years.

That means he has at least two more years to go in the IRR.

They are calling back people in the IRR.

to prove it--assuming that someone DID screw up typing the 214, and some sort of Service Secretariat waiver did not come into play due to his humanitarian discharge issues due to his grandmother's illness.

They'd first have to issue a correcting 215, and he would have to sign the thing for it to be validated. There is wiggle room here. A simple threat to go to the media would back them off, I suspect, if they decide to push it in the first place. They don't need MORE bad press, and the right story in a major paper or on TV could spin the whole deal as a 'furtive draft/military goes back on their promise,' that sort of thing.

No way can they pull him back.

I misunderstood his statement. He is under no obligation currently, however, if he re-enters as an officer, he is obligated for the rest of his life.

The Master Sergeant I've spoken to -- who is trying to recruit me into the Reserves -- was even forced to admit as much when I sent him the electronic copy of my DD-214. In his words, "Because of your DD-214, you are untouchable. They'd have to reinitiate the draft to get you back in against you will."

And based upon your current DD-214, I would not re-enter under any circumstances whatsoever.

A friend of mine, and fellow DUer, JoeyLiberal, and I have talked about this. The DD-214 trumps anything they might try. Thanks for clarifying that better than I, MADem.

Unfortunately, the Army Reserve is NOT the IRR. It goes back to your initial signing documents for your IRR commitment unless is specifically states you owe the Individual Ready Reserves no time on your DD-214.

In my case (commissioned regular officer) I have a "SUBJECT TO RECALL BY SERVICE SECRETARY" proviso, which will follow me until I am on a walker, I suspect. If we go to Iran, I am fucking toast, and I know it.

If it ain't there, they screwed up. Hey, it happens! Either that or his IRR requirement was waived by the Service Secretary due to the situation he faced with family illness (humanitarian discharge aspect).

As I said in the OP, "When I got out my separation papers, DD-214, stated that I owed the Army Reserve zero years, months, or days. Further, it said in my paperwork that I was NOT to be transferred into the Inactive Ready Reserves (IRR)."

I'd say, don't go back in, then, because they WILL keep you.

I've always described the military in general as a psycho former lover who doesn't get that it's over, and will lie, cheat, or do any other manner of foul deeds, to get you to stay with it.

That is, since I owe the IRR zero years, months, or days, I cannot be brought back in. However, if I did have, say, three years remaining in commitment to the IRR, then they could snatch me back in.

and there is no way around the IRR commitment.

at least, that's how it worked when I was in.

Remember, the Army Reserve and the IRR are two completely different things.

Edited to add: What was your MOS?

voided at time of discharge by the Service Secretary. They often do this with HUMS discharges, especially if it involves a family member with a chronic condition, simply because you aren't gonna get a good product back in uniform if you are jerking them around when they have a sick relative at home.

Or, as I stated above, the personnel clerk doing the paperwork just forgot to toss that item into the remarks section, and the person signing for the government 'by direction' may have just missed it when proofreading.

In any event, it buys enough time, assuming a challenge is even necessary, to make it not worth their while to haul the guy back if he is unmotivated.

13E -- Fire Direction Specialist.

However, they did a merging of MOS's back in 2002 - the present. In 2003, I became a 13D -- Tactical Data Systems Operator. Still fire direction, but on a different computer.

It is not a shortage or critical MOS. I've checked.

They'll keep you the rest of your life!

Officers remain in the IRR throughout the rest of their lives. Many do not realize this.

Officers and enlisted have differing commitments.

It's like a sword hanging over my head...it sure makes one focus on the political news every day, let me tell ya!

They definitely have longer commitments. I thought I had heard that if you formally resign your commission, you're free after the eight years, but I guess not. Sheesh.

even if you use a walker!

Seriously consider the ramifications of your decision. You have no committment at this time, if you go in, it could be for the rest of your life.

The military is controlled by criminals.

Can your spouse, grandmother, and others that depend on you both financially, physically, and emotionally do without you? In other words, you are fretting about money right now, and it seems that it is monetary reasons that are driving your reasoning. However think about how well these people will fare if you get killed. And don't think that it can't or won't happen. This war is eating up officers at an unholy rate, and though you might be in the Reserves and what have you, as soon as you're eligble you will probably be shipped to Iraq.

How well will your wife and others do if you're dead? Think about it.

That has been most pressing on my mind, and probably because of some level of stupid machismo, I didn't bring it up here. It has definitely surfaced in my thought, and I don't at all believe I cannot or willnot be deployed and/or killed. While I have thought about it, you're on to something. It is a serious conversation I need to have with my grandmother and wife.

To give you some background... My grandmother lost one child in the early eighties to a disease, my mother was murdered, and then my brother committed suicide. That is why her well-being -- she is also disabled -- was/is so important to me. She does not need to suffer anymore than she already has.

It sounds like your grandmother has been through the wringer in her life, and it would devistate her if she lost you. It would also devistate your wife as well, something that would be hard on her physically as well as emotionally(I know how emotions can effect for good or ill those with rheumatoid arthritis, my Mom has had it for the past fifteen years).

In addition, I realize that the Army's benefits to relative of the deceased are less that stellar, to put it kindly, and your passing would put both wife and grandmother in a precarious position financially.

If your consideration of returning to the Army is primarily financial, then I would have to say in all honesty, forget it. Yeah, they will pay you well, but is that extra money worth it if you die? Besides, you can always scrape by while you finish up college, part time jobs etc. And if you want to your wife to go to college, well either you can get a job at a college, most offer free tuition to employee's families, or there are grants, scholarships out there for the disabled. You have many,many options without having to consider the Army one.

In the short term the risk might look good, but don't fall for it friend, the long term consequences could very well devestate those you love the most. Think it over carefully, and good luck.

Thank you so much for your advice, MadHound. It will not go unheeded.

Nothing trumps being committed to seeing for the well-being of your grandmother. You have not only an obligation to take care of her, but I belieive that both of your emotional well-beings are at stake here.

She brought you up, and now it is time for you to see her through. That is the least you can do for someone who has done so much for you.

Regardless of whether or not the military is the right thing to do, you must be with her.

Imagine, for example that you are deployed, and you have to put your wife in charge of your grandmother's care. How would you feel if your grandmother took ill and died while you were gone? What if your wife has to make the call to take your grandmother off of life support? How would that affect your wife and your relationship with her?

And then think about the scenario of what would happen if you were to die in Iraq. Who would take care of your grandmother? Is it fair to subject her to the very real possibility of more loss in her life? Would she not worry about this scenario regardless of the outcome? And who would take care of your wife? I don't think you want to count on the military to do that.

You have your answer. You need to Stand and Fight at home. There are jobs out there for you, and there are other ways to finish school.

You just need to Stand and Fight.

Good luck! :patriot:

Wow... This is why I came to you guys, I knew you would open my eyes. I'll take this into consideration, and I think you may be right.

if your gonna have any kind of career in the military. If ROTC will pay the bills maybe it's a decent choice.

The longer you are IN school the more chance there is for Iraq to get over with. Nonetheless, I'd say shop schools to see if you can get into an ROTC program with a tradition of placing people onto good military career tracs. Texas A&M comes to mind as one of the sterling examples that all ROTC programs are not created equal.

When you go ROTC you, as you know, earn your degree concurrently. ROTC is not separate from the college life. (That's one of the things most attractive about it versus the strictness of West Point or other service academies.)

To give you an idea on the time involved if I made this decision:

- I would enroll one year from now in August 2006.

- School would span from August 2006 to December 2008.

- Following that I would attend by branch of choice's Officer's Basic Course.


That is about three and a half years from now. So, I would be in the Army as an officer on duty from mid- to late-2009.

The war could be over, but that is a HUGE gamble.

happens all the time. You could end up fighting/supporting leftists in Venezuala, terror cells in Indonesia, or warlords in Dufar, or fighting over salmon fisheries off Washington and Alaska.

My basic point is you need a degree, you need to be on a good career trac. Field grade ranks and real careers don't come to everyone. If this is what you think you need to plan strategically even though you are forced to meet day to day realities. It'd be a shame to invest another 7-10 years and not make it past O-3.

assignment (actually, two--one as a JO, one as a 'senior officer'--field grade and above for services other than USN) if you want to make the cut above 0-4 in the line. And the quality of JD assignment is key--with a rinky dink one, you can hit 0-5 assuming really stellar fitreps (and room at that paygrade), but forget about 0-6 and up. You have to hit the War College/National Defense University circuit, too. The "purple military" requirements can really screw up the opportunity for good tours of duty--you end up having to go to school and then to a crappy duty station aboard USS RUSTBUCKET or East Jesus Naval Air Station, and miss out on that primo job you could have had if you didn't need to punch your joint ticket to qualify for promotion. Sometimes you get lucky, other times you have to make hard choices. It always helps, though, to have a pal who is working your desk where the assignments are doled out--in that case, miracles can happen!

What are your other options? :hi:

Potential risk of financial hell by continuing as we have...

My wife has applied for Social Security Disability, but they have already turned her down once. Her physician has stated that she is "unable to work, to include standing or sitting, for long periods because of the severe and varying condition of her rheumatoid arthritis." However, the SSA does not get that, and so she has applied yet again. If she happened to be approved, I could use just my GI Bill to finish my BS degree (which will take longer than I have the GI Bill), and then try to get a job in the field of public service.

Getting a raise with the company I work for... Raises are pretty insignificant here. Last year it was 2.46% and they're underpaying me 5% less than what I should make for this area. They offer tuition reimbursement, but if I leave -- or am fired -- before a year passes after I complete the class, I owe them the money. And to top it all off, they will only play for a degree that relates to my job. (I'm a multimedia designer by the way...)

Get someone who specializes in disability cases. Do some net research too. Here's the scoop on SSI, they always turn you down, unless it is something so obvious that they can't. They hope that you won't fight, and will go away. A lawyer will give you a good chance of winning, and a lot of them do it for a percentage, so no costs up front.

zalinda

to six charges up the hill to get SSI. The trick is perseverence, and your odds are good if the doctor can produce strong justification.

We're on our second attempt. The heartless bastards told her last time -- with very little medical review (one appointment!) -- that "we have found that you can move" -- get this! -- "adequately"! Insane.

Don't settle for just any lawyer, get one the specializes in disability. There are websites that will help you through the process and they maybe could recommend a lawyer in your area. These guys have an in with the administrators, they know that the lawyers will only take a case (on spec) if they can win.

Your wife can do the research on the web, if she needs help, let me know, I'm pretty good at finding info.

zalinda

job. It took us about two years but, we got paid from the date we first filed. It seems as though they try very hard to make you go away. If you hang in there with a good claim, they cave.

You're a designer? Cool. I wish I knew how to do that. :)

They're a real bunch of buggers. Her doctor who has treated her for the past couple of years said that she cannot work. The good news is that they sent her for a second appointment to get x-rays done. Is that a good sign actually? I don't know.

So, it took you guys two years? Wow... My wife occasionally says something nutty like, "I'm going to get a job -- screw it." Both her doctor and I have talked her out of it. She cannot work. But it is killing me -- mentally -- to be the sole bread-winner. Something's got to give, and if they drag this on for two years, wow...

Yes, I went to a speciality academy (high school that you had to be admitted into) in Las Vegas where I was born and raised. If you ever need anything designed -- website, logo, brochures, etc... -- PM me and I'd be happy to help. :)

her back for another round, that is a good sign! You really have to stay on these folks even when you'd rather just punch them in the nose.

They wound up paying us nearly $10 in back payments and I'm happy we hung in there. At the time, we really needed the help as Doug couldn't work and even though I worked two jobs, I barely held everything together.

I make just a few cents short of the equivelent of holding three minimum wage jobs, and I am barely holding it together. I have to wonder how the hell people do it with just one or two even. My heart aches to think that so many people are working poor in THIS COUNTRY. This is why I have to get into public service, politics, so that I can fight like hell to even the odds. Everything is all messed up. The country is in serious trouble, and George W. Bush and friends are only concerned about corporate welfare and big business interests.

I guess, to be the grown ups.

A very talented comedian we know went homeless about 4 months ago. His situation is being resolved, he should have a roof the first week in January. And it freaks me out that I know so many people who have had to endure that.

It's counterintuitive, I know, but go for it. Go with your gut on this one. When you are ready to commit to public service and politics, the way will open up for you. This sounds like magical thinking and may be. But I've seen it work, over and over and over.

Got me through grad school at Berkeley when I was a single mom + 2.

Good luck, Stand and Fight. I look forward to seeing what you decide. :P

...then they will do whatever they want to with you after you are in. But you should know all that already if you've already served.

ps. btw, this last year they've been having sailors and airmen serving guard duty on truck convoys. Your MOS will be irrelevant once you get to Iraq (and don't believe they won't send you there -- they will). If you decide to go, know what you are really getting into.

Thank you.

I knew then, much of what I know now, and I still made the dumb mistake of signing up. I will try my best to stay focused, as I meet with the ROTC recruiting officer tomorrow.

Once we have a new president and a new congress (democratic in two branches of govt) it should be safe to go back into the water, especially since Bush has eviscerated the army; it's going to take at least a decade to repair the damage. Your skills will always be needed. Hell, they're trying to reup a 62 y.o. officer vet friend of mine right now, who says he'll go if Bush and Cheney enlist in the infantry.

Keep your expenses down until that time. Take the bus, burn candles, whatever it takes. Do not reup until the current cabal is swept away.

BTW, the army's trend is toward longer and more frequent unaccompanied tours. That's why so many are getting out right now. You risk the strongly likelihood of divorce if you reup.

The ROTC stipulates that I have to be younger than 34 -- I believe when I graduate. They will subtract years from my age if I am over 34 depending on how long I served. They don't round up, so they would subtract 4 years from me.

for NON PRIOR SERVICE candidates. That is if you go active duty, as opposed to reserves (they recently upped the age limit for those guys, to 42 I think), but with your prior service, you can indeed be older. The governing regulation is that you have to be able to do a total of twenty years active service by the time you hit age 55.
So, you're good if you want to change your mind down the road.

Things will improve for our military, but not under the current jurisdiction. It's out of the question for you to go now.

I would not have my commission until December 2008 or January 2009.

Of course, this nefarious war might still be on...

But you don't want to take chances since obviously, the elections are rigged. Let's not kid ourselves.

Can you reup after we know who won? Play it safe is all I'm saying. Iraq and Afghanistan are more dangerous w/each passing day. You don't want to go there.

The short answer to your question is yes. Would I? More than likely not.

Considering my previous post about Bush and what an incompetent CinC he is, if you wouldn't have to put on the butterbar until '09, you might be on to something. You'll just have to vote harder in '06 and '08, as must we all on the non-dark side.

I taught with a retired Army officer (went to West Point in engineering, flew helicopters in Germany), and he loved it and missed it. Of course, there wasn't a war he could get dragged into then (1999), so I am not sure what he'd say today.

I am a SAHM with endometriosis (hard to work with, too). It's hard to get all the bills to meet together when you're middle class with only one paycheck coming in. We've been there too many times to count.

If you go back, it's knowing that you most likely will get sent somewhere. Can your wife survive on what you make if sent overseas? How will that work out? What does she think about it?

We seriously considered having the military pay for my husband's med school, and we decided not to after talking with others in my family who had (one uncle and two cousins-in-law). They own you, so it's not exactly free money, and it also means being away from wife and kids (if you decide to have any). I wasn't okay with that, and Hubby wasn't either. We'll be paying off the loans for a long time, but it was a better choice for us.

I do not AT ALL relish the thought of making a commitment to the Army again. Last time I made this choice, it was different. I will not put my grandmother and wife in any dire straits if I do not have to.

The Army raked me over the coals last time when they imposed Stop Loss on my MOS and wouldn't let me out. I even had a full-ride scholarship waiting for me, and they could have cared less. So, I reenlisted, tragedy struck in my family, and I got out.

The Army hasn't changed. You already know the value that they place on you and your family.

Single and Happy Mother?

Swedish/Asian/Hispanic Male? (unless you live in MA, or somewhere else that does not restrict marriage rights, that wouldn't fly, seeing as you reference a husband)

Swearing, Angry, Horrified, Mortified? (we all feel that way, living under the brutal boot of the current regime!)

I'm guessing it is medical, but I haven't a clue.

What used to be called a "housewife."

That's "household manager" to you. ;)

Sorry, it was rude of me to use an acronym and not explain it.

And maybe the occasional aspirin for the headaches the job can entail!!!

Sheesh, I learn something new every day! Thank you for clueing in a clueless wonder!!!

The life of a JO (Junior Officer) is not fun or easy but since you have prior enlisted background you would have the opportunity to latch on to a senior NCO to get you over the rough hurdles; and hopefully you will soon evolve out of the ranks of JO's. The service provides a nice bennies package for you and your wife. The only drawback I had in serving was the transfers. Early in my career that was not an issue but it was probably the number one reason I opted for retirement, I did not want to move again. Correct me, but if you have less than 8 years of combined reserve/active service you will remain in the IRR until you hit that eight year mark. Best of luck to you, and by the way, get a credit card. They are one of the world's greatest inventions if you used properly. I would expect an Officer in the United States Army to use one properly. May I suggest www.usaa.com. They are an excellent financial services provider for military personnel. Caveat: I do not work for the company however I have been a satisfied customer for years. Good Luck to you!

There is one hell of a benefits package by being in the Army. You hit that nail right on the head. Plus the likelihood of me losing my job in the Army is close to nill. (Unlike my current position with this defense contractor...)

As far as the IRR, please see up thread. I owe them know time because it is stated in my seperation papers.

Credit card -- I have horrible credit from being younger, desperate, and stupid. I doubt anyone would give me a credit card. (Beacon of around 525 from all three bureaus..)

(Is your SN an ode to the Dukes of Hazzard?)

the SN is an old moniker I had in the Navy. I have always been an obnoxious Arkansas Razorback fan and eventually I became the Boss! JOs feared me, my Sailors respected me; some even called me Bosshog within my earshot, like, "here comes the sonuvabitch now!"

If you have had really, really bad credit, that could put the kabash on Intel for you. Of course, when you sign on the bottom line, they will not tell you that, even if you self-admit in advance of commitment. In the reams of paperwork you sign, there will be a little blurb about failing to qualify and how they can slide you into another area of expertise (hey, you're a stellar candidate for infantry!) if you do not meet the standards for the specialty you originally requested. Navy has the candidate select three choices, and they "try" to give you one, but no guarantees.

I saw this happen with quite a few kids; often it was prior drug use that screwed the pooch for them.

I currently hold a security clearance, but I would have to upgrade it one level if I went Intel I am sure... You get three choice branches in the Army too. I think I should be able to get the necessary clearance though. A lot of my bad credit falls off in 2007 -- before I would have a commission. :)

It really isn't a question as to whether you deserve the clearance or not, but if I were sitting back in DC, going through the lists of candidates, and trying to match personnel with assignments, I would take one look at your MOS, one look at your financial history, and, rightly or wrongly, deny you a TS (SCI) clearance and shove you into some sort of field artillery leadership position.

I wouldn't think twice about it. You already have the knowledge, you already have the experience, you would be a credible leader for junior personnel.

Also, and again I am being totally honest, the intel community does not embrace older types with open arms--I am not saying this cannot be overcome, but it is yet another hurdle. They really do prefer to grow their own--the old "get 'em young, train 'em right" saw applies here. It is a curious culture, Intel, and folk with too much "outside experience" have to work twice as hard to fit in.

ON EDIT: One point I forgot to make--if you speak Arabic, Farsi or Pashtun, you could probably overcome the age/culture hurdle, and likely even the financial hurdle as well. But you'd have to already have the skillset, IMO.

Who will care for your loved ones if something terrible happens and you don't make it back?! Would your life insurance be enough to take care of them without you being there? I hate to even mention this, but you might be better off joining a private "contractor" - pay is much much better. There are lots and lots of sargeants, lieutenants, captains, etc coming back from Iraq in coffins. Iraq is in full scale civil war now. Best of luck to you.

But there is the chance this war would be over by the time I was commissioned in three years. What do you think?

with whatever you decide to do. :hug:

I need it right now. :hug: This is one of the toughest decisions I have ever decided to make.

I think a lot would depend on what position you would be placed in. Good retirement benefits though if you make it that long..

When I joined it was 13E -- Fire Direction Specialist, Field Artillery.

When I left it was 13D -- Tactical Data Systems Operator, Field Artillery.

I suppose this is always an issue, but the chances of being put in a fatal situation increase exponentially with the path you're suggesting, given the current use of the military. So, if you do it, will everything and everyone that matters to you be taken care of in the event of your being killed? That's really what you have to answer, I think.

If I died she would get $200,000 in life insurance money and my grandmother would get the other half at $200,000. (It's a total of $400,000 now.) I would leave counsel on how they should best use the money in the event of my death if I decided to join up again.

Don't forget funerals are expensive, and I'm not sure that the military pays for it all. Also, would they still have health insurance? Sure, they'd still have a decent chunk of cash, but I'm not sure how far it would go, especially if they had to pay for their own medical shit.

You will likely be away from your family for some time, too. What do they think? Your life is yours, but you've committed to a marriage and your decision affects her as well.

If you're OK with it, though, and with the fact that you will be receiving your orders from an administration guilty of treason until '08 at least, then I'd say do what feels best to you.

It is very little though. I would leave instructions that I don't need anything fancy with the specific stipulation that I not be cremated. My grandmother gets Social Security, so her medical is largely taken care of, and $200,000 would improve her life dramatically. My wife has family and is applying for SS because of her ailment, and should be approved for it before -- and if -- I were to die in Iraq.

At this point, it looks like George W. Bush would be out of office when I went on duty. He'd be leaving office the month after I received my commission in fact. Who's to say what or who will take his place though...

He was an enlisted man for 4 years, was discharged, went to college and got his degree (he did join the reserves though) and then decided to go back in as an officer. He took tests to determine his qualifications to attend officers candidate school and only after he was assured in writing that he had passed the tests and was qualified did he have to commit himself.

After rejoining he successfully completed officer candidate school and was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant, then a Lieutenant. He now is a "wiso" (weapons & systems officer) on an F-15 Strike Eagle out of Elmendorf in Anchorage.

The only problems he encountered was with pay. They had his pay so screwed up that he was being paid as an E-5 for almost a year, then they paid him his back pay and then determined they paid him too much back pay and he suddenly got no pay at all for a few months. Other than that, he loves it.

He is scheduled for deployment to Iraq (probably a neighboring country) in March and isn't thrilled about it but of course he knew going in that that would probably occur at one time or another.

If I thought it at all possible I would join it... I forget to mention in the OP that my job and I have worked out a flew-schedule whereby I would be able to keep my job, go to college, and do the ROTC. There is no Air Force ROTC in this area of Oklahoma.

after a year he couldn't find a job so he rejoined. He is now in Iraq, i wish he had found a civilian job.

I have worked as a civilian with military personnel my entire working career both medical, engineering and communications.
I have worked and socialized with some of the most honorable men and woman within the US Military, Army, Navy, Air Force and consider myself fortunate to have had the opportunity. Amongst these gentile, men and woman of integrity, as you will always find in any organization or group, a few rotten apples.

Our Nation requires a National Defense/military. We cannot allow our military to become a tool of power hungry despots, to be used for the whims and need to satisfy their hunger.

You sound like a man of integrity and if you feel that this is your passion than we need you. My grandson is 18-years old and has always planned on going into the Navy through the ROTC. We all supported his choice but now under this administration and this Commander-in-chief, we fear for him. Knowing that there were more men like you leading him would give families like us less cause to talk them out of following this path.

I appreciate your sharing your remarks about the military here. You're damn right that there are a few bad apples, but the majority of people I met in the Army are some of the finest people I have ever had the chance to know.

This is an extraordinarily difficult decision for me to make, and I do not make it lightly. I know that the military needs yet more men of integrity, and I believe myself to be one. However, I don't know if this war is the forum that will allow that to flourish and spread.

I was very lucky to get the job I have. However, I went from E5 pay to this. It would have been a HUGE decrease in pay for your nephew. I hope that he stays safe, comes home, and is able to find a job right away in the civilian world.

,...please, please don't do it. :cry: You KNOW you'd end up somewhere in the M.E. and I just do NOT want yet another person over in that mess.

Please, don't do it.

I am STRONGLY opposed to this war of lies in Iraq. My greatest hope, and a giant gamble, is that it would be over by the time I received my commission. At least, I know George W. Bush would be leaving office a month later.

...so why don't you run for office?

While it probably won't solve your monetary needs, it is a lot more likely to get you where you want to go than re-upping your service.

If you have already served, your rank is not going to matter on your political resumé. Look at Al Gore.

Military intelligence seems like political suicide, by contrast...those words are going to be synonymous with torture by the time the Bush Administration shakes out.

From what I have seen and believe, I'd be squashed because of this in an election. Or maybe I am wrong. What do you think?

Any opponent who tried to knock you for that would instantly win you the degreeless vote, which is a larger % of the vote than people with degrees.

Besides, as long as you come across as intelligent, it won't matter. You have military service, which is just as helpful.

Interesting angle. What about very high ambitions for public service though?

Anything above Congressman, maybe Senator, will require you to have a degree.

the prospect would not be entirely unappealing. However, as bad as it seems right now, your educational/financial situation is temporary. They can, and will, be overcome, OTOH your death cannot. Officer pay is not worth it, and the cabal is cutting benefits as fast as they can.
You've already done your duty from a potentially political position and you still have the enlisted man's POV, which I believe will better serve you in any office you may be elected to.
My advise is to wait a year before making this kind of decision, see how things shake out in Iraq and what, if anything, they do to modify the deal with the military. BTW I tell you this as the first male in my family to not serve in the American or British Navy in over 400 years.

Wow... I've been searching hard for another job and a way to escape Oklahoma, but the prospects are very, very bleak for someone with no degree. Public service is my passion. America is in a lot of trouble, and I'm not content with standing on the sidelines while bastards destroy the country I love. I don't know if I can run and even be elected with no degree, and a degree is a long way off at the present rate I'm going.

your feelings about this country. From an employment standpoint, between the rise in corporate degree mills and the free reign the corporations have been given to import all the low paid degrees they want to, a degree isn't worth much anymore, certainly not the $25,000 and up that it costs. OTOH a degree probably is an unwritten requirement for public office.
We are in deep shit and I don't know how we're going to get out of it, but we need all the young, intelligent, empathetic people we have, and you potential demise will serve no purpose except to strengthen the opposition and destroy your family. You know better that anybody in the cabal that a serviceman cannot make any changes, you do as you're ordered and that's it. Not to mention what following those orders will do to your soul. To quote Clint "it's a hell of a thing to kill a man. To take all he has and all he ever will have."
Do you have any spare hours in your week? If you want to enter public service, you should start in your local party office, probably as a volunteer because the Dems are every bit as cheap as the re:puke:s, but as you become known, opportunities will come your way. Make your determination to hold office known the others in the party and grab any opportunity to be visible to the decision makers.
Finally, you would (probably) not believe what a huge scandal my not serving was in the family. The most ironic thing was that it was my grandfather ( CPO, 28+ years, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam) that convinced me not to enlist, and was my most ardent defender in the family debate (it was about 25 years ago and the family is still split).
So good luck to you and your family, keep networking, and stay around. You are needed.

I appreciate it.

I am actually involved in the local party. However, I live in Oklahoma and Democrats here are not what I am used to. I'm slightly left of center in my views. I ran for the County Chairmanship, but was beat out by one of the "good old boys." I was elected a delegate to the district and state conventions last year, and I served as Wesley Clark's County Chair in 2004. So, believe me, I'm involved in politics, but it goes back to what you said. A degree IS an unwritten requirement for public office, and this is especially so because of the level I aspire to reach. Things have got to change in this country or it will rip itself asunder. I cannot let that happen.

Thank you for your encouraging words.

Nobody cares about officer morale. You are treated like a slave.

I was an active duty infantry officer for nine years and before that an EM for three years.

As an officer, I worked in staff jobs for years of 15+ hour days.

The good jobs (e.g. company commander) were very rewarding but the bad jobs (staff jobs) and the occasional asshole commander made it overall not worth it for me.

If you enjoy your family, say no to the officer corps.

It's those kind of perspectives that no recruiter -- officer or enlisted -- will tell me. I deeply appreciate your candor.

I noticed in your post, that you posed no moral question in your decision but focused on the money/career angle as if it was divorced from what soldiers do.

Why is that?

ill grandmother. Morality, like politics, can be local, too, especially if your loved ones have great need.

I still don't think the kid should do it, but I can understand his desire to provide for his family.

However, the truth of the matter is that in a lawful war -- unlike this one that would be hopefully over by the time I possibly seek a commission -- I have no problem with TRULY defending freedom. If that means taking human life, then, and I hate to sound callous, I accept the weighty responsibility involved. Especially if it means I could make a difference in insuring someone else’s loved one makes it back home with life and limb intact.

And you are wrong. There is a huge moral question. If you had read the thread you would see that. The toughest question is what this would do to my wife and my grandmother. The "money/career" angle is a fact of life. I don't deny that. However, I won't have my character besmirched or questioned by you. This is a difficult decision because of reasons that should be obvious to anyone. Reasons that are too numerous to get into here. Trust me, taking a human life is a deep and serious matter to me. The decision I would make going back in and its connection to that is not one that I take lightly.

If you are considering going back in, and "taking a human life is a deep and serious matter" to you, why are considering going back in. The primary function of a soldier is to kill people on order. As someone who served in an artillery unit, you should be more than aware of that. When Lt/Capt/Major so-and-so gives you orders to fire your cannon at coordinates so-and-so, do you question him on where the round is going to land and who it's going to kill?

Protecting your buddies lives sounds very noble. So, you're willing to kill somebody else's buddy to save yours?

As for "truly defending freedom" I refer you to Gandhi:

“What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy.” - Gandhi

As I said in the OP, I came to DU for advice because I knew it would be sage advice. While I may not necessarily see eye-to-eye on this issue with you, I completely understand where you are coming from. Trust me, your words, though harsh, will weigh in my choice. I refuse to get in a pissing match. Thank you again for sharing your thoughts.

It took me over 1/3 of my enlistment in the marines before I came to realize what my real function was. "Every marine is a rifleman" and we had to qualify every 6 months. It was on the rifle range one fine fall morning that, for some reason, I realized that the bosses were preparing me to kill people. Not people I knew, hated, feared, but people just like me. And, I'll be damned if I can find justification for doing so to this very day.

6 months later when they asked me to extend my enlistment to go to Vietnam, I refused for the reasons stated above. I got 30 days mess duty for my youthful need to shoot my mouth off about war and killing.
And, I would do it again.

I am just as passionate about the death penalty. I hate the idea of state sanctioned murder, and before you say it, I know. In a way, that is just what war is...

:toast:

and help them out if you join up and are sent away on duty?

And how do they feel about the possibility of your rejoining the military? Presumably you've discussed it with them?

They can't help full-time, but they're in a far better position than they were two years ago. By the time I went back in in 2009, it would be a total of three more years. Both my wife and my grandmother would be in better positions acually. My wife can go back with her family while I deploy -- if that happens -- if she so chooses.

I have discussed it with them. I don't think my wife has thought it out because she is encouraging me to do it. My grandmother doesn't like the idea, but says she will support whatever decision I make.

key issue. Because of their conditions, you would have to be enrolled in the Exceptional Family Member program. This is a requirement regardless of whether or not your dependents accompany you to your duty station. EFM service personnels' records are "flagged" and, unless you have a very senior mentor who can personally override the assignment process, you will not get the cream of the crop job assignments. This EFM designation won't make much of a difference, really, from 0-1 through 0-3, or maybe even 0-4, but you will be struggling for advancement after that point in time.

I know "they" say that EFM enrollees are not treated any differently, but I am intimately familiar with the selection board process, and I can tell you that it is considered, in hush-hush fashion, when promotion time comes around, and more so when there are many candidates and few open slots.

You mention your wife can not work due to severe rheumatoid arthritis. If she has not yet applied for Social Security disability she should. As my husband can testify to it can often be a royal PITB to get on it (especially if it's a "pain" type of disabiltiy) but it's worth it if she can. Although I'm no expert I've been on SSD (w/ MS) since '89, helped my DH get on it and have learned a bit about the system. If I can be of any help I'd be happy to try.

Another thought would be you may be able to complete your degree online, in your own time and with fairly easy payments.

There are always alternatives... ways to make extra money or trim the budget a bit. For instance, I sell on ebay when I feel "good" and in the past have mentored with a large online org to help other disabled learn how to sell on ebay as well... that may be an option for your wife. It would not only bring a bit of extra funds in but she may enjoy feeling as though she's helping.

Anyway, I know this is a very difficult decision for you. You want to be the best provider that you can be and that's admirable. Just please keep in mind that for most women who love their spouses it's not about the money their spouse makes but the love and support they're being given. Money comes and goes all too easily and quickly... but the love... the support... the being there... that is truly priceless and prized the most in the long run. Just go from the heart and the rest will follow. :)

Good luck to you and yours no matter what you decide.

I will be talking to my wife about the suggestions you made, and don't be surprised if I contact you for further advice, WP.

Good people on the inside can be an asset.

that, given one or two deceptively reasonable-looking assumptions, becomes sufficiently complex through that it's easy to fall into one or two pseudological traps. But that's how I *feel* about enlisting in general. What I *think*, which is different for me, is that given that a significantly huge proportion of the rest of the world throws itself into those traps century after century, joining the Army is a good way of putting your mind and body in the way of any nastiness floating your country's way from all this lemming-ness, and so does in fact serve a useful purpose. However, I don't really think it's the best way of dealing with the lemming-ness. It *may* be the *most common* way, but I don't think it's the best. Also, I don't hold people in uniform in any especially high regard. I've only met one I didn't like (and I really *don't* like him) and don't really see them as being different form anyone else.

The decision is yours. I considered joining the Army once, and was persuaded not to by two people, both old women, one of whom was my grandmother. GRanny reminded me that her husband had ben in WWII and she didn't want to see any of that stuff again and really our country wasn't in any danger any more and probably would never be again. As she had been through WWII bringing up my Mum in a bomb-shelter I decided to give her view some credit, as it seemed a bit more grounded than my own rather dreamy views.

The second woman was a work colleague and she said that there was trouble in life and there was no point going looking for it.

it sounds like a very iffy proposition to me. They seem to be screwing everyone over.

thought it might be good to get an extra paycheck every month. I wound out dropping out during summer camp for telling off some supply Lt. Col to go stick it. On my exit interview with the commandant of Ft. Riley, he told me they had a 97% dropout rate from veterans like me. You think being a Sgt. is chickenshit, wait untill you're an officer.
Caveat Emptor.
The only thing good that might come out of it is you might keep some poor leg from getting wasted. Don't do it for the money.

Sorry to say it, but you know where they'll ship you, promises or no.

That's how I see it.
Plus, I'm a human. And I don't want war.

I can't get any simpler than that. And yes, it does mean that I don't support the troops. That's why I've never gotten involved in these conversations. And that's the first and last time I'll say that, because it's such a touchy subject.

Except I know of far less painful ways to die and I'd have to be on hallucinogenics to defend slugs like ken lay and bill gates - that's what it means to defend this country; defend wealthy monsters who are out only for money and power; and I know you'll mention gates because of "recent events" so I will respond: compare gates' recent "altruism" (read 'tax shelter') to his corporate tactics from day 1. He's got a hell of a lot more work to do to even begin making up for his predatory, vicious, and generally unsavory tactics. Fuck 'im.