Here's the AlJazeera translation of Osama's latest tape - interesting.

Except for the anti-Semitism, most of what he says is quite right. (And if he'd replaced the word "Jews" with "rightwing Zionists" - I'd have no problems with this text at all.) If this indeed is Osama speaking, he is an astute student of the US scene. Look how correctly he describes Bush, for example, & the corrupt process that put him in office. IMO, the following is vastly more truthful than anything that appears in the New York Times.

==================================

"Oppression will only go against the oppressors.

"This is a message from Usama bin Muhammad bin Ladin to the American people regarding your aggression in Iraq. Peace be upon those who follow the righteous path.

"Some have the impression that you are a reasonable people. But the majority of you are vulgar and without sound ethics or good manners. You elect the evil from among you, the greatest liars and the least decent and you are enslaved by your richest and the most influential among you, especially the Jews, who lead you using the lie of democracy to support the Israelis and their schemes and in complete antagonism towards our religion (Islam)....

"Bush and his gang, with their heavy sticks and hard hearts, are an evil to all humankind. They have stabbed into the truth, until they have killed it altogether in the eyes of the world....

"This gang and their leader enjoy lying, war and looting to serve their own ambitions. The blood of the children of Vietnam, Somalia, Afghanistan and Iraq is still dripping from their teeth. They have fooled you and deceived you into invading Iraq a second time. And they have lied to you and the whole world...."

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8E8EA580-943C-4FBF-9ABD-21B47627FECD.htm

3000 people. He took credit for the attack on videotape. I want his head on a platter. Screw Bush for not delivering that.

Like birds of a feather yada, yada, yada.....

proves that the 'clique' that was in control had prepared stuff prior to when the wtc takedown actually occurred...iow the whole thing was set up (see fbi's '19 arab mugshots, the olsen ph. call, the 'let's roll bs etc). There were no 'terrorists' hijackers involved in the very well engineered con job (which cost 3000 innocents their lives that day) that the neocons have used to further destroy the most vital democracy (in terms of $) on earth...
Anyone could write a more truthful, hard hitting and trenchant press release then a bushmaggot-run oraganization like ny times...
the fact bin laden is still extant suggests that BFEE have tricks up their sleeve; their coup d'etat is not on firm ground and they may still need bin laden (for terr attack or PR move of some kind)
please don't waste energy on obl or saddam or arab terrists: bushinc will demand every ounce of our effort to stop!

Anyone could write a more truthful, hard hitting and trenchant press release then a bushmaggot-run oraganization like ny times...

NY Times? Eh?

Not on the fat OBL tape and not on the skinny OBL tape.

No proof has been presented that OBL was our newest, bestest boogeyman after the September 11, 2001 attacks. Not one tiny slip of proof.

The fat guy on the right who is so obviously NOT Bin Laden?

THAT'S the guy you saw take credit for WTC.

DENIED he was involved actually.

Now he did admit he was proud of the event... but in October 2001, in an interview, he specifically denied involvement.

You were misled by CNN's interpretation.

...he took credit for 911?

Was it the CNN version? You know, the one that had to be cleared by the squatters in the White House?

Was it the DoD version? You know, the one that had to be cleared by the Rummy and the rest of the NeoCons?

Think about this for one second...who had the most to gain from the attacks that took place on 911?

such as, the CIA.

Osama is your Bush-appointed enemy. Bush loves it when you hate this 'enemy'. This cultivated hate is why Americans don't protest the Patriot Act etc, allowing Bush* to get his way.

Yeah, sure, that'll be my source of info.

Bin Laden has a problem: how the hell do you top 9/11?

Really. Anything less and he looks like he's slipping.

If he's alive. If not, it's the problem for his successors which makes it a bigger problem. They have to prove themselves as good or better.

Their little minds must be spinning furiously.

And I don't care if Osama is alive or dead or if we get his head. Cockroaches don't interest me. I do care if he has access to money.

Are not that interesting. Like saying Hitler was right about Stalin.

were not, your local Barnes & Nobles' bookshelves would not still be filled with tomes about what Hitler said, & what Stalin said, both about each other, & about everything else - 50 or 60 years after they died. (I've read a lot of this stuff, and I don't believe you can say it is not interesting.)

Second, Osama does not really qualify as a "mass murderer." Or if he does, it's only just barely, and even then, it's a fluke. The only "mass murder" he can claim is 9-11. Most of the deaths were caused because the towers fell -- which no one really could have predicted. The way I figure it, he planned actions that he reasonably could have known would result in a few hundred deaths. It turned out to be 2700 or so, but this was largely due to "good luck." Even if you credit him with all 2700 deaths, that is small potatoes for history's mass murderers.

Nixon and LBJ were much more highly ranked, as mass murderers - and GW Bush is already ahead of Osama.

And I am in agreement with ThogutCriminal (except about rambilings of madmen not being interesting...perhaps that's one of the reasons we keep getting them as Rulers often, but not always, throughout human history).

Osama certainly does qualify as a mass murderer, as much as any of them small or large. And a mass murderer is a mass murderer, because the number of people they kill is simply how big they think and how long they go without getting caught/stopped, IMHO.

The way I figure it, he planned actions that he reasonably could have known would result in a few hundred deaths. It turned out to be 2700 or so, but this was largely due to "good luck."

I cannot believe you said that. Just few hundred deaths ok with you, then? I'm trying not to be sneering, but you usually make so much sense that I cannot believe you wrote that and I am stunned.

For the record, I would classify someone who whacked as few as 10 or 20 (or the boss that ordered them killed) a mass murderer. Those Columbine fuckers were mass murderers.

Therefore, the issue isn't whether or not Emperor Bunnypants* has more murders ordered under his belt than Osama or vice versa. They are both mass murderin' scum and that's good enough for me.

In spite of the fact that I am sitting here with my jaw hanging open at what you just said, I have tried to be polite. So I ask you politely, what is your response to my comments?

Anyone who's killed more than, oh, a couple of people is a mass murderer.

George Bush certainly qualifies at this point.

If Osama Bin Laden is responsible for "just" the USS Cole, that makes him a mass murderer.

RichM's delight in provoking the DUers has gone too far this time. I am just as disturbed as you are at his having gone too far off the path of right thinking just to make a weak point. Osama bin Laden is no one to praise under any conditions or to support any argument, correct though the general drift of that argument may be. On the basis of Rich's wrongheadedness, I have denied him his connubial rights and refused to provide him with his weekly stipend of sex. Please know that he is being disciplined for his thought crimes right here in his own home.

Sincerely,

Thistle
Wife of RichM

and shades his posts in order to be controversial. His desire for attention trumps his desire to inform.

Unlike you, whose paranoid state of mind causes you to stalk my husband electronically, I do not "shade" my husband's posts -- he reports in to me on his intellectual adventures and misadventures periodically. Certainly I do not find my husband's recent controversial post on Al Jazeera to be dishonest, as you allege. He's being perfectly honest according to his own intellectual standards; his only error, in my view, is taking metaphor too far to make a point. I understand what he is saying; he is saying that the US should not be surprised when it is attacked, given its aggressive and reprehensible behavior around the globe in an untold number of situations. His provocative behavior on DU is motivated by the desire to cause people to be thoughtful and probe beneath common conceptions and interpretations -- and not by a desire for attention, as you assert. My own post, only my third on DU, was really meant to provide you DUers with a little Saturday night humor. Your humorless interpretation is very telling about your defensive approach to political analysis.

stick around please, your input is desperately needed here.....

...but I have to question your usually excellent analytical skills on this one. I'd like you to tell me exactly how you arrived at Osama being guilty for the attacks on 911?

Was it the translations where he supposedly took credit for the attacks? If so, which translation did you trust the most...the CNN version, or the DoD version?

Was it all of the neatly packed suitcases left behind in the rental cars? Was it the so-called "suicide notes" found in the suitcases? How about the flight manuals? Could you say that this has all of the earmarks of planted evidence?

Was it the explanation that all of the kidnappers had been identified within 24-48 hours of the attacks? I personally find it interesting that eight people have come forward after 911 with the exact same names and backgrounds asking why they had been accused of the 911 attacks. I also find it interesting that when questioned by a commission after the attacks, Mueller of the FBI stated that the FBI wasn't certain of ANY of the hijackers identities. I also find it very interesting that there is strong evidence indicating that some of the so-called hijackers attended American military schools in Pensacola and Maxwell Air Force Base in Montgomery, Alabama.

Was it the 30-40 minute delay by the FAA and NORAD in sending up interceptors after the hijacked jetliners? I find it interesting that only four fighters were ordered in pursuit and that they were flown from bases far from the planned flight paths of the airliners, and that they were flown at less than the speed of sound.

Was it the continuous slowing down of the 911 commission by failing to present even the most rudimentary documents to support the Bushies contention as to who was to blame for 911? I have personally enjoyed recent developments involving the subpoena of documents from the FAA, how about you?

And finally, I want you tell me who had the most to gain by the events of 911. Take your time.

And I suppose I agree with you, at least how totally disturbing it was not to be shown one true scrap of evidence that Osama had anything to do with it.

What does that have to do with him being a mass-murderer. The Cole, The African Embassy bombings...Osama would, in my estimation 99% chance, be responsible both directly and indirectly, of many murders of inncoents. Whether or not he had anything to do with 9-11 is immaterial as to whether he is a mass murderer or not.

He is, but it's just my opinion.

Thus, your whole argument rests on an aspect (some of which I personally agree with, to varying degrees) about 9-11.

The question was: is Osama a mass murderer?

(9-11 notwithstanding) yes.

And I completely agree that the people who gained the most from 9-11 were without doubt the Busheviks.

I wasn't being careful about how I made my point, above. Or, to put it more accurately, I was trying to antagonize certain posters whose attitudes annoyed me, & was putting more effort into the antagonizing, than into the point-making.

The attitude that annoyed me is what I see as reflex "2-minute Hate" behavior. The name of Osama is mentioned, & there's instantly 20 posts spewing hatred for him, calling for his head on a pike. This attitude bothers me because it's too easy a position to take, & there's no effort being made to carefully dissect what's involved.

There's a difference between saying "Osama is not undiluted evil," and saying "Osama is a hero." I'm NOT saying he's a hero. But I AM saying that I disagree with simply dismissing him as pure evil, & calling for his head on a pike.

I look at Osama like this. On the negative side, he's an anti-Semite, seems to be a religious fanatic, & he murders innocent people. This is bad, no question about it. On the side of mitigating factors, however, he has advanced 3 very solid reasons for despising US imperialism. IF one believes that these in fact are his true motivations for action, they excuse a great deal, IMHO. There is, however, some question about how much he believes these things (for example, by some accounts, his complaints about the plight of the Palestinians is a relatively recent addition to his list of grievances). // So on balance, I see the Osama question as somewhat complex, and I resent the overly simple yelling for his head on a pike, without due consideration of all the factors involved.

He killed more than two dozen people who I know. Umm, "knew"

What else do I need to consider, Rich?

but I do needs speak out that Sangha attempts a maudlin push button sidestep of the issue.Why would bin Ladin never admit any responsibility for 9/11 if he was the financier or mastermind behind it?

Those responsible for 9/11 reside in Washington DC ( and the capitols of other western nations) and in the boardrooms of the corporations who have used the third world as a source of cheap labor, natural resources and markets without any consideration for their living conditions, human rights and needs.

Usama bin Laden is a symptom and is the natural result of decades and centuries of exploitation in order to keep our luxurious lifestyle.There will always be bin Ladens arising until the wealth of this world is more fairly distributed.

Though there are many issues involved, IMO it's pretty clear to most of us that no political ideology justifies the use of mass murder.

Usama bin Laden is a symptom and is the natural result of decades and centuries of exploitation in order to keep our luxurious lifestyle.There will always be bin Ladens arising until the wealth of this world is more fairly distributed.

"Society made him do it"

Meanwhile, relatively recent American history shows that when millions of people are exploited to support other people's lifestyle, there still is no need to kill innocent people (See Civil Rights Movement, Martin Luther Kink Jr, and non-violence)

and you are the only one who claimed friendship with any that died there in order to win sympathy for a political position...rather smarmy of you, old man. The attack on the world trade center was an attack on globalism, just as the attack on the pentagon was an attack upon the military that enforces that globalism. For every Martin Luther King or Mahatma Ghandi there are many bin Ladens, human nature perhaps.

Of course he hates us for more complex reasons than the Busheviks put forth. To listen to the Busheviks on damned near anything is to receive disinformation (such levels of daily Orwellian unchallenged deceit was unimaginable a mere 4 years ago), and undoubtedly that is also the case as it is to Osama.

It amazes me that people didn't begin questioning Bunnypants* when he started talking like a three-year old "evildoers" "they hate us for our freedom" "dead or alive". Like the scene in "I, Claudius" where Macro announces that Caligula has become a God, everything proceeded as if nothing bizarre was said and the "conventional wisodm" was then accepted amidst toadying.

And unreasoningly crying for people's heads on a pike is one of humanity's oldest sports.

But I wouldn't mind seeing Osama's head on a pike, not at all. In the final analysis he is a mass murderer of innocents. Whatever the "mitigating circumastances", that is enough.

Fuck bin Laden.

:puke:

Most evil/cult of personality types all speak of some universal truths, but they also are crazy and evil. Stalin, Hitler, Bin Laden, Pol Pot, Saddam,and Bush all have a little truth spread throughout their propaganda. But, they all use pain and fear and death as a means to propell their agendas. Dont fall for that shit!!!!!!!!! :smoke:

I want the murderous bastard's head on a pike. Who give a flying FUCK what he thinks?

Bin Laden is a terrorist, and when you say things like, "He's got it right" about the Bushies, that only makes liberals look like the traitors we are always accused by the right of being. Bin Laden doesn't give a shit about the people in Iraq. He has his own agenda and it's not freedom for all, it's an Islamic world. I don't want him captured and put on trial. He needs to be killed and his body displayed for all of the terrorists to see what happens to others who would do what he has done to this country. I don't like Bush, but he is most definitely NOT bin Laden.

I want him caged and displayed like the insane animal he is!

If so, I think it would be fitting for Osama.

in the middle of Yankee Stadium...during the world series...and we let the Yanks use him for batting practice before the game.

for the three million Vietnamese that this country murdered? And here we are going ape shit for three thousand that we lost.

communists weren't any better than the colonial masters, although they also weren't any worse--which is what our propoganda kept telling us. It's like Rhodesia / Zimbabwe . . . does anyone think that black on black or black on white oppression is any better than white on black?

Bin Laden is a religious fanatic who believes he has the right to decide who lives and dies. He claims to know what God is thinking. Without getting into the argument of "so does George W. Bush," that makes him a threat to our society. His unprovoked attacks on the Cole, the embassies, and the WTC et al prove that.

Some of this rant does make sense . . . but for God's sake, man, what do you people want exactly? What could the U.S. do so you'll stop attacking us?

Notice how he never quite gets to that part? The answer is apparently when the whole world becomes converted to his fundamentalist brand of Wahabi Islam . . . wacko, SOB . . .

******
On edit--It does show that far from fighting the terrorist threat, invading Iraq has exacerbated it. Another dumb ass move by the pResident.

give that man a cigar.......

Notice how he never quite gets to that part? The answer is apparently when the whole world becomes converted to his fundamentalist brand of Wahabi Islam . . . wacko, SOB

This is a great piece of propaganda. He must be alive because this release shows that he is aware of the dissent in the United States against Bush and this piece is trying to take advantage of that to get the troops out of Iraq so the Wahabis can have anther Afghanistan.


We all dispise Bush...but in this case, the enemy of our enemy is NOT our friend.

The US media doesn't like to tell you what Bin Laden wants because then honest Americans would have to admit that he is right.

Firstly, he wants US intervention in Israel to stop. That includes the BILLIONS of dollars a year that the US gives Israel to support their occupation of Palestinian territory.

Secondly, he wants US troops out of Saudi Arabia and other Muslim lands.

I believe that Bin Laden works for the Bush cabal, and as such I believe his demands are merely the fodder he uses to recruit followers, but the above two demands are what the genuine Muslim fundamentalists want, and it is not really too much to ask.

Until it was politically expedient to say so, after 9/11, when he was looking for muslim support. He has his own agenda.

He wanted the US out of Saudi, and by and large WE ARE. And we never went there against the Saudis will, either. But thanks to Osama and 9/11, we will be in the ME for a long time.

"Genuine" fundamentalists of any kind want nothing that isn't "too much to ask", they want mass conversion to their insane religious view of the world, or else. Or maybe you can point me to the tolerant, democratic states that are presently being governed by "genuine fundamentalists".

his mentor in Afghanistan was a Palestinian, Sheikh Abdullah Azzam. Very early on he was impressed to defend the Kurds and the Palestinians in particular, but with respect to the latter they stayed out at the request of the Palestinians themselves.

A very subtle but clear hint was delivered in the process of the videotaped last will/testament of one of the alleged hijackers--I believe it was one of the Hejazis that made his remarks wearing the black/white checkered Palestinian kaffiyeh.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2576741.stm

Mr Arafat acknowledged that there was sympathy for Bin Laden among young people in the Palestinian territories, but said this came from despair.

"These kids don't really know who Bin Laden is," Mr Arafat said.

He said he was the first leader in the Arab world to stand up to Bin Laden.

The Palestinian leader also accused Bin Laden of opportunism.

"Why is Bin Laden talking about Palestine now? Bin Laden never, not ever, stressed this issue. He never helped us. He was working in a completely different area and against our interests."

A mafia don never likes a rival cutting in on his piece-'o-the-action; what he says must be considered in context of who he is.

The only true democracy in the Middle East. That is why the U.S. supports them. Yes, they are occupying Palestinian territories, but if the current wave of terrorist attacks against civilian targets had not begun, I would imagine that all Israeli troops would have pulled out of the West Bank and Gaza by now. You do remember the reason this latest intifada started don't you? It was, supposedly, because Sharon visited the Dome of the Rock. If you as a people truly want peace and your own homeland, do you start a campaign of terror over something so minor? If you think about it, the Palestinians have done more to hamper the establishment of their own state than anyone else.

As for bin Laden, please don't be so gullible as to think he has altruistic motivations for being a terrorist. He is a power freak and a fanatic, end of story.

has nothing whatsoever to do with their form of government.It has everything to do with creating a powerful military presence amidst all the oil......

so. I think he turned on his family because they were in cahoots with the Bushes.

On the Truth-O-Meter, what's he batting at this point? Close to zero, isn't it?

Have you read the "Seven Questions" yet?

Binnie could most definitely be just another CIA puppet. If he has up and done what he is suspected of, then he deserves to be put to a slow painful death, ASAP, without question, either way.

But he actually does hit the nail on the head in his statements bout our current situation, which is clearly another matter.

To dismiss what Bin Laden now says here simply because you don't like him is what is known as using the Ad Hominem Fallacy. And fallacies by definition are illogical.

You can hate him, and he can still be spot on correct. Weird how that whole 'logic' thing works. Usually, it is right-wingers whose brains resort to illogic like this, so I'm shocked and asshamed to see it here, actually.

Otherwise, he would be your friend already.

That is how I have always looked at it.

And this piece proves it. Karl sat down with a list of every complaint against bush...then paraphrased a script and taped a Saudi reading it. Walla.....if you and Osama believe the same things to be true....then you are an Osama sympathizer.

This whole fucking tape thing is so transperant it is beyond belief...and that anyone here has been bamboozled by it is positively shocking.

My guess is...Karl has read this thread and is now likely rubbing his piggy little hands together giggling like the vicious little nerd he is.

RC

With just about all of what you said

if he actually differentiated between fighting the Bush Administration and killing innocent people in the USA, my opinion of him would be different. But he hasn't. He is a hateful, murderous, terrorist who has no concern for innocent beings.

They don't differentiate between fighting people like Hussein and killing innocent people (last count in the range of ten thousand), and they never have.

we have so much love for dictators :eyes:

They are all criminals with little regard for the lives of those they disapprove of, and with no qualms about butchering innocent people in order to further their personal agendas.

The world would be better off if the three amigos were to get on a plane and fly into the Bermuda Triangle to never be seen again.

the way the US handled the war in Iraq was completely despicable, as was the war itself.

Osama Bin Laden, though, is just as bad. He deliberately targeted thousands of innocent peole. He is a murderous monster and a thug.

If he was actually taking the time to differentiate between his foes and innocent bystanders, I would actually consider him to be more than a murdering souless bastard. He doesn't, and for that even though I believe in an it harm none I would have no issue with him getting his head mounted on a pike in a public place. He gets what he deserves by the karma that he has created.

kudos!

RC

when we nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki? And we were the good guys. Our hands are not too clean either.

Don

-

of another maniacal fundamentalist. Just what the world needs. I'd love to see those two in a cell together.

get off complaining about bad manners and ethics? The murder of thousands of innocent civilians was pure evil - an extreme case of bad manners and no ethics. He is clearly attempting to take advantage of Bush's unpopularity internationally to legitimize himself somehow. I'm sure Bush has been a great recruitment tool for al Qaeda, but this is a case where the enemy of our enemy is NOT our friend. Osama bin Laden is a disgusting psychopath. The hypocrisy of his statements is outrageous.

The Bushes are close buddies with the rich Saudis in general and the bin Laden family in particular. They snuck them out of the U.S. within hours of the 9/11 attack. His brother was over there asking that family for money after 9/11.

The main reason bin Laden hates the U.S. and the Saudis is that he wanted to lead the defense against Saddam when he threatened to invade, and they chose the U.S. instead! Ironic isn't it? They should have, christ knows they had miliitary capability thanks to the U.S., and we wouldn't be in this shit. But why fight when you can get greedy rent-a-cops to do it? Then he get's all pissed over us being in "Holy Land". Please. We aren't even there in force anymore (first smart thing Bush did).

He is a fundamentalist nut with a personal grudge. And he would bathe the world in blood to satisfy it if he could.

be served on a silver platter, but to me that is missing the point. What I find so interesting in what he had to say was so contrary to Bushco.'s argument. He is not wanting to kill americans for being freedom loving people, he doesn't care that women wear short skirts. He is not against the american people literally, he is after the policy makers. I think it does a huge diservice to the people of this country for Bushco. to constantly drill in to our heads that it is our way of life that the terrorist despise. That is a grossly misleading. The problems that we have with terrorists are fixable, but this misadministration won't tell us that! I am not defending UBL, I am just looking at his message as it compares to what Bushco. spews out everyday and I see a huge difference. I know it is all propoganda but please oh please, do not think I am defending that man!

Tell that to the families of the three thousand dead.

He is against us personally and he has said so. "Civilians are legitamite targets" or somesuch. We are all heretics, anways. It's no different than the Crusades, ironically. Same religious fanaticisim. Mix in politics and personal grudges and you've got Osama. He is not being "straightfoward", he is spinning his message to his followers. "Look how evil these people are; KILL! KILL!"

:eyes:

my point was not to down play the tragedy he caused on 9/11, my point was that A. Bushco. would have us all believe that the ONLY reason terrorist strike us is because we "are freedom loving people" and I am just saying that is not the case so B. if we want to fight a war on terror the first step would be to understand why the terrorists hate us. They hate us because they want us out of the middle east. OK, he is sick and crazy and wants to create his own little muslim world, you dont have to tell me that. I think he is disgusting. But by this administration not being even A LITTLE BIT truthful with the american people, he has this country thnking that to fight the war on terror, we need to invade IRAQ and that is not the answer to the problem. My heart goes out to all of those families from 9/11 and I am sorry if my original post made it sound otherwise.

All the bullshit spin that came out of 9/11 from Bush, I hate it too. But using bin Laden's bullshit to argue against it is just as bad. Besides, who would listen? (rightly so) We need our own leaders to speak the truth against this "war on terror" that they are launching against the world and against us, as well.

...that Bush & Co have put on Bin Laden.

Surely, he is an disturbed man who is using every means he can to fight against what he perceives to be his enemies.

But please - look beyond your visceral reaction, and see that he is doing his own spinning - to the masses of people who hate the foreign policy of the U.S.

The original post here is only meant to open discussion and be open to thinking about what this man really wants/thinks.

To lock it down by saying "he is evil - I want his head on a platter" - means that we lose out on some possibly productive analysis.

...when Bush* has actually killed more innocents in Iraq than bin Laden did in America?

- Should we say it's okay for Bush* to kill thousands of women and children in Iraq in the name of the war on terrorism? They call it collateral damage...but it's still terrorism to the Iraqi people.

If America's sin was only women wearing short skirts, he would call a Jihad on that too. Look, I HATE BUSH! I HATE HATE HATE HIM!

But I just refuse to listen to one thing that murderous bastard (Bin LAden) has to say.

lovedems has it, but can't say it right in progressive terms:

Osama=2,800 dead Americans on 9/11. (About the same amount who die in violent bloody auto accidents in New York city each year which is equally sudden and tragic.)

Bush 1 (and Bush 2)=100,000,000 dead Iraqis total!
(And perhaps 2,000-3,000 MORE dead Americans projected for the next 6 year "stay" at 1/2 the current rates of casualties which is another American 9/11 in a far off country that never caused or took part in the first 9/11 in any known way).

Whose lives were worth more here?

As far as Osama's recent statements...
Both Bush and Osama are evil men who spew half-truths in their statements and say God will forgive them for it which creeps me out to no end when leaders do that.

that OBL murdered 2800 people? Man, if you have proof, you're worth a mint!

BTW, the PEOPLE that died that day, came from 62 different countries.

Twice Yes

almost every time.

RC

One hundred million dead Iraqis? You sure about that figure?

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

The terrorists are not "flexible" in their demands. They want us dead and we should see that.

This administration does not as indicated by our foolish adventure in Iraq. We haven't really focused on the threat of terrorism, and have instead given plenty of fodder for bin Laden and his band of thugs to promote his fanaticism around the world. People do listen to his filth unfortunately.

The administration that rules this nation is bad. I would even go as far as to say evil in many respects, but I just can't rationalize anything a fanatical, mass murdering, piece of shit has to rant about. There are simply no excuses and rationalizations for terror.

I said our problems with terrorists are FIXABLE. I am not rationalizing or making excuses for terror either. I am going to be clear and say that this administration is MISLEADING us about the intentions of the terrorist. If this administration is not going to be truthful to the american people about why the terrorists hate us, then we will never be able reach a viable solution to this problem. That is suppose to be what democracy is about, the leaders tell the people and the people decide. Well, we have been filled with one lie after another to the extent that most people thought that the best defense to the war on terror was the pre-emptive strike on another country. That is bullshit and had we been given the truth, we PROBABLY wouldn't have ended up in a war with Saddam. I don't "listen" to Bin Laden but I "hear" what he has to say. The only way to fight an enemy is to understand them and we are not given a comprehensive truthful understanding.

UBL would be just another wacko mass murderer/criminal.

Sadly, Bush/UBL are mutually enabling co-dependents...one needs the other to provide justification for their actions.

...and in fact our blind hatred makes us just like them.

- I'm sure the Bushies would rather have bin Laden killed than put on trial. A trial would mean the exposure of the Bush Crime Family and how the GOPers have used those like bin Laden to fight their dirty secret wars in the past.

:wtf:

Granted * is not bright, I wouldn't listen to Bin Laden, even if he were wearing a Clark button.

Can someone delete this thread? I can already picture a media field day on this thread. Remember the WSJ editorial attacking DU?

many people in world listen to this propaganda.
it needs to be studied...

from pst #11
"they ARE TOO "that interesting." If they

were not, your local Barnes & Nobles' bookshelves would not still be filled with tomes about what Hitler said, & what Stalin said, both about each other, & about everything else - 50 or 60 years after they died. (I've read a lot of this stuff, and I don't believe you can say it is not interesting.)"

people have studied Hitler n Stalin , they'll study Bin Ladin.

what makes em tick ???

Once you're ready for RATIONAL thought, ask yourselves one question:

WHY has * done everything short of declaring martial law to impede the investigations?

After all, this was the GREATEST tragedy on Murrkkun soil - right?

very objectively.

Quit assuming Osama Bin Laden had anything to do with anything. If you assume he did, you're just reacting to what you were told by the Bush administration.

Everything about 9/11, if you start to look into it, stinks to high heaven!

The Bush administration is doing everything in its power to make absolutely sure nobody EVER finds out the truth of 9/11.

Screaming for Osama Bin laden's head on a pike must make somebody, somewhere, smile ......

To not read his "statement" is just silly. Why wouldn't you? Why are you letting your emotions blind you? What's interesting is to think about who might have actually written this post, and why they wrote it.

Maybe he did it, maybe he didn't. I know the fat guy in the videotape talking about it wasn't him. Check out the picture:

And it may be a minor trivial point, or perhaps not, but the only time I've seen his name spelled "Usama" before is on FAUX News or on documents originating from the CIA. It's always spelled "Osama" everywhere else, which I had assumed was the "official" version that would be used in the Arab world.

And if so, wouldn't that be odd that the "Al Qaeda sympathizing" Al Jazeera network was using the CIA spelling of Bin Laden's name?? :think:

I just gotta believe that Usama speaks English. Or knows one or two people who do. That certainly being the case, why, if he intended to send a message to American citizens, didn't he make a tape in English?

RC

I think they must have been former allies who have since turned on each other. He certainly laid out his case against Bush* much more cogently than Bush* has against him or Hussein.

and I also agree with Rich if one changes Jews to Likkud Zionists it's a rational assessment of of PNAC foes. By using Jews it unfortunately becomes discounted as a Hiltlerian statement. But, the truth of what he says about Bush and about some of our past operations undertaken by our government against the will of the people can't be argued with by anyone who knows what we all know now has come to pass because of zealots in our own government.

That Israel has "zealots" is a fact. Just as our zealots have let us down this treacherous path, and the Islamic zealots are now in the mix. Maybe the "Armaggedon believers are correct. I really begin to wonder.

When the worlds bullys are out their locking horns, how much hope is their left for us/we THE PEOPLE!

don't have to be stupid or ignorant in order to be vicious, deluded zealots. Bin Laden, unfortunately, understands US internal political dynamics far better than those who now control the US gov't understand their antagonist. (And unfortunately they also prove that being a deluded zealot in no way rules out also being dangerously stupid).

The terrifying thing is that Bush and the PNAC-Fundie alliance have exactly the same view of this conflict as USAma and the right-wing pan-islamists (OneTrueGod/good versus Heathanism/evil) and are using the same means (mass murder and terrorism) to pursue a common goal of theocratic totalitarianism.

but, it is hard to deny that we've given these Islamic Extemist ammunition for their arguments...

1 million Iraqi dead as a 15 year present from the Bush family.

WELL OVER 1 million Palestinians have died since America said a place called Israel should be right about here in the middle of Arab lands (pointing to Palestine).

We are in total warfare over 2,800 people and more New Yorkers have hemmoriods or die in car crashes! (Buildings are replaceable.)

CAN'T Osama be a LITTLE upset over 2 million dead, and millions more "displaced" Muslims at America's hands? (And you sure do not need to read revisionist history to read how the U.S. made Israel, and had 2 Gulf wars.)

CAN'T Osama be upset that Israel, (America's biggest welfare state), has been one of the most heinous regimes since the Mongol hordes?

I just do not see why everybody is so upset about Osama talking about it.

Besides killing Osama dead to get OUR "revenge", we SHOULD AT THE VERY LEAST "listen" to Osama and cut that deadbeat country of Israel off from America 100% for not only robbing 2 trillion dollars from the U.S. since 1948 (For a lousy 4 million Israeli people! Divide that just once per Israeli everyone and wish you got that much per citizen here in America!), but for making us so hated in the Middle East in the first place!

All things in this post lead us right back to Israel.
It is HIGH time (after 60 years) that Israel stop taking billions of dollars from us Americans and we make them go on a "W2" program like Americans who can't support themselves are forced to.

Besides, if there's no Israel, there's no "Armageddon" according to the Bible. Let the Arabs have these overly burdunsome Israelis since we do not need Israel in any way (to "guard" oil if we needed it) since the Cold War is now over and Putin runs a democracy and is willing to offset OPEC's impact for us as well.

I seem to remember "proof" of weapons of mass destruction, too.

Wasn't it the CIA and FBI who were sure that Osama and al-Qaeda did it?

Oh, by the way...they've joined together since 9/11 for a little CYA

"In conclusion, I say to the American people we will continue to fight you and continue to conduct martyrdom operations inside and outside the United States until you depart from your oppressive course and abandon your follies and rein in your fools.

Yeah, right, Osama. Like we have anything to say about "reining in the fools." We marched in the streets, e-mailed and wrote snail mails to our so-called "elected" representatives, wrote letters to the editor, talked to our friends and anyone else who would listen and we still could not prevent this war. We are a demockery, not a democracy. Stop attacking us and go after somebody like Diebold if you want to change the course of events in this country.


Cher


p.s. interesting point, anticoup2k. Have his other communiques used "Osama" or "Usama?" If I recall correctly, it's "Usama."

I grew up in a country that was governed twenty years before I was born, from people, who "replaced" the word capitalist with "jew". It wasn't a replacement. One leader of the german social democrats called antisemitism the "socialism of the stupid", 20 years before the Nazis did win the heart of the germans and their fears. This isn't about just another word and will never ever be. Maybe the left parties in germany were to populistic in their critic of capitalism before and made it easier for the nazis. I could write a book about those few lines from Mr. Bin Ladden. Please read it a second time and really think about it. It's full of irrational keywords. It's just using resentments and it might appeal to the uneasiness many people in the western world feel (for good reasons), just like Hitler did.

With the single exception of the word "Islam", this could be word for word a Hitler-speech:
"Some have the impression that you are a reasonable people. But the majority of you are vulgar and without sound ethics or good manners. You elect the evil from among you, the greatest liars and the least decent and you are enslaved by your richest and the most influential among you, especially the Jews, who lead you using the lie of democracy to support the Israelis and their schemes and in complete antagonism towards our religion (Islam)...."

Please switch your brain on again!
Whenever the word "right wing zionist" can(!) be replaced with the word "jew", it never ment something else. And in all those cases, the word "zionist" is just purely cosmetics for antisemitism and nothing else. I rather go with Sharon and Bush, although they might not like far left-wingers as me....

Hello from Germany,
Dirk

Dirk has a GOOD point about "replacing" words to villify (which is why I said Israel, and NOT "right wing" or the word, "Jew").

We gotta remember that whatever Osama and Bush "say", THEY BOTH have latched onto other causes to further THEIR agenda's. (Osama HAS recently "latched" onto Palestine as another pointed out above, but Bush latched onto 9/11 to go into Iraq in the same SICK way to justify killing.)

The best thing to do is NOT to listen to EITHER of these "men" and try believing your "lying eyes" (as they say) for a change.

Still, the more we talk about what Osama "said", the more this comes back to all the troubles Israel has brought us here in America.

Even Osama. (Osama's father was outraged at Israel's agressions to no end and he passed this core hatred onto Osama.)

Abandoning that USELESS, WORTHLESS piece of sand called Israel is the solution here!
(Besides, I REALLY think it would be funny to see how quickly Israel would sign anything that was put in front of them after they knew no more American F-15's or dollars were on their way.)

We NEED to start lobbying Congress about Israel.

but I hear we have a huge jewish lobby, my college bud told me, i dont really look into that crap, so who knows. Nothing against Israel, really, just don't think they are our 51st state and deserve the amount of aid we give.

I also don't see how expanding the border and trying to remain secure can not be mutually exclusive.

This is a very intelligent and progressive point no person has ever brought to my attention before.

Just how is it than one can continuously expand their borders and remain "secure" at the same time?

It IS mutually exclusive!

A good brainy kid right there, he is.

Do you really know, what you're talking about?
You got me completely wrong. Words are not just words, not at all. And whatever people might think about Sharon or the politics of Israel today: I'm one hundred percent sure, that the Israelis have a reason to be afraid. There is a threat to Israel, and this is the reason so many Israelis support Sharon. No american ever had to be afraid of the Iraq like no american ever had to be afraid of Venezuela or the Chile of Allende, besides some particular groups. But whatever you might think of Sharon etc., if you're not able to understand why so many Israelis are afraid today, I feel pitty for you.
"USELESS, WORTHLESS piece of sand": I can't believe that I have to read something like this on DU,
what's wrong with you?
Even Mr. Bin Ladden didn't call North-America a "USELESS, WORTHLESS piece of sand", but even if, you could go everywhere just like me, the jews in the world we live in can't, at least a lot of them feel this way and they might be right.
Dirk

Perhaps I read more into your post than you intended.
For that I am sorry.
I assumed you meant that certain words such as left wing, right wing, are too often used to encompass an entire group in a hateful way. (Which is why I pionted out that I am not calling all the Israeli's, "Zionist Jews" or something snyde and derogatory like that used by the likes of Osama in his "speech" today. I am being very fair in that sense with Israel, and that is where I thought you were comming from.)

However, I am not sorry for Israel in any way.
They have made themselves (and America) an international embarrasment.
They have EVERY RIGHT to be afraid after all that weight they have thrown around in the last 60 years, all the land they have grabbed from Egypt, Syria, (Lebanon) and Palestine.

Israel will, "reap what they have sown" is what a Christian believes. (I gave religion up when a bad priest tried to play doctor with me as a kid though.)

Israel IS the core problem here my friend.
1.) They ARE "useless" to America. (Politically AND Militarily.)
2.) The land IS "worthless". (NO real resources to speak of.)

Got a counter point to that AT ALL?
Can you prove Israel's value to America AT ALL?

Name ONE (just one)thing they have done FOR AMERICA besides send their sneaky spies like Aldrich Aimes to steal OUR nuclear secrets, use OUR planes to sink the U.S.S. Liberty (and 164 American sailors), or send the LARGEST SPY RING EVER FOUND IN AMERICA to break into all our military and business instillations.
(All of this is in any MAINSTREAM paper as FACTS. No bias is added here my son. I am being very objective now.)

(With "allies" or "friends" like these though, who needs enemies, eh?)

If they are so afraid in Israel, they should LEAVE, come over here and we'll give them all Ohio or something nice like that.

AT LEAST WE'LL GET SOME DARN TAX MONEY FOR ONCE INSTEAD OF PAYING 2 TRILLION DOLLARS SINCE 1948 ON A POPULATION THAT STARTED AT 850,000 in 1948 AND IS NOW 4.5 MILLION in 2003. (Divide that just once per person and WISH you got your share.)

WE ARE TALKING well over 30 MILLION PER ISRAELI (alive or dead) SINCE 1948.
ISRAEL HAS CREATED (AND NURSED) THIS OSAMA BIN LADEN NOT AMERICA.
(BUT, Osama IS latching onto America because we supply Israel's guns with ammo, and therefore by proxy, Israel has put IT'S OWN problems on us again.)

I am getting way off-topic of what Osama said today though, so I'm done ranting and await debate from anyone about Osama latching onto a correct message (being used wrongly) for political gain like Bush panders for support.

and you might get an impression of what it means to talk of Israel as sand and desert... Read Hegel for a start. This isn't banal.
Ausschwitz and the european antisemitism started with a kind of suspicion against the jews for not being connected to the earth and to live. And in a way, this is why antisemitism is still so attractive for all pseudo-criticism of modern life and capitalism.
You don't understand antisemitism and fashism, if you don't understand this. Do you think, the germans supported the Nazis, because they announced concentration camps and a world war? They surfed on their fears, on their emotional desperation about the threats of capitalism... exactly like Bin Ladden.
Dirk

I HAVE been there.
It is one dusty place.
Perhaps you heard of the Negev (Negrev?) "dessert" in Israel?

Oh, I assure you,I DO understand the origins of religious hatred and it's progression through world history.
(And as much as I hate to admit it, I do believe the Christians ((that I gave up with religion)) have the highest body count in the name of their "God".)

Dirk, I have studied your own history in particular (assuming your German).
I hate to break it to you, but the German people DID support Hitler until Russian troops took Berlin itself.
WWII came to be because the winners of WWI made Germany pay too much in reparations for WWI, paving the way for Hitler to ride the wave of public discontent.

America under Bush is step by step enacting the same laws Hitler used to pave his way to power from our new "special" gun laws, to German versions of the Patriot act that almost word for word are IDENTICAL to the one Germany enacted after the Reichstag burned by Goerring. (According to Goering's personal addmission to Gustave Gilbert in the book Nueremburg.)

I recommend that book for this quote alone... "Why of course the people don't want war... ...but whether it is a democracy, communism, or a dictattorship, the people can always be brought around to the bidding of their leaders... ...all the leaders have to do is tell them the people they are being attacked and call into question the patriotism of anyone who disagrees... (Hermann Goering)
(I might be a word or two off, but it's almost exact.)

Still Dirk, you have not answered my questions about how is Israel ANY value to America.
On top of that, what is it that I do not understand?
What are you driving at here?

Don't tell me you are trying to pin a "Anti-Semitism" label on me are you? (If you are, where did I talk about "semitism" in the first place to be an anti-semite?)

I am talking about Israel's VALUE to America weighed against possible suicide bombers with nukes next time trying to get us out of their lands!
THAT is what Osama said he wants today, so why shouldn't we talk about dumping useless allies like Israel for peace in our country.

Until that American moved to Israel because God told him it was his to take.....So the question of the hour is....why the hell do I have to pay 9 billion a year to protect a bunch of folks from all over the world who willingly and with forethought, parked their asses on a hornets nest, then repeatedly beat it with a ball bat?

RC

whoever they really are.

We've done exactly as they've wanted, every step of the way.

I'm sure they're laughing in their villas in Karachi. Where we don't touch them ... because why? Because "Pakistan has nukes".

The whole thing stinks to high heaven.

...located?

Don't you find it entirely too convenient that when Herr Bunnypants' poll numbers start a downward trend that these tapes suddenly arrive on Al Jazeera's doorstep?

Additionally, who had the most to gain by the attacks on 911, and who has the most to gain by continuing to stir the pot?

I don't care if its extremist Muslim propaganda against Christians and Jews, or Christian propaganda against Muslims. I don't like any of it, and I think it is all just really sick.
There is nothing noble about the cause of any of these parties.

Please don't misinterperate, however. I appreciate that you post this. Its good to read it.

But I am not really concerned with what Pat Robertson has to say, and am even less interested in what bin Laden has to say.

in the mifddle east all gain from the US obessions withOBL

Also, most of the info on AlQueda links with the 9/11 have been coming for the guys the US has captured since then. Who knows if what they're telling us in true

"This gang and their leader enjoy lying, war and looting to serve their own ambitions. The blood of the children of Vietnam, Somalia, Afghanistan and Iraq is still dripping from their teeth. They have fooled you and deceived you into invading Iraq a second time. And they have lied to you and the whole world...."

Osama is doing the same kind of thing Bush is doing. Yes, he is right in saying that many Americans are "vulgar and without good manners." Many Americans are a lot worse than that... the phrase selfish bastards comes to mind. We have lots of room to improve and much to work on.

At the same time, Islamic fundamentalist noses are not clean. Neither are Iraqi Baathist noses clean.

We aren't going to get anywhere throwing insults at one another or claiming that our evil excesses aren't as bad as the other guy's evil excesses.

It isn't going to stop until someone takes a step away from the evil excesses, and I don't see either side taking that step. I'd certainly like to see this nation, as the alleged leader of the free world, take that first step, but the Islamic fundamentalists are certainly not constrained from taking it. I would tell Osama to quit the spitting contest and let's see something positive from his end. Meanwhile, I'll do what I can to get regime change here in the U.S.

What is the difference between "shock and awe" drop 5000 daisy cutter bunker buster cluster etc bombs in a single night...

And shock and awe fly 4 planes into buildings?

Don't give me the civilians were targetted Bullsh*t either... BOTH were done to gain stategic military advantage REGARDLESS of the cost of civilian lives.


That makes Bush just as bad as any other fundamentalist zealot.

I was just thinking the other day, if it wasn't for his militant fundamentalism-I don't always fundamentally disagree with bin Laden's political positions. Probably a risky and unpopular thing to reveal.

;-)

And he gets it better than half of Americans. WTF is up with that?

should never be used as an accusation that plays on the advantage of guilt to silence justifiable concerns. It is a form of suppression while crying wolf.

One of my brother's first and most important love with a Jewish girl. She was an only child with elderly parents who had tried for many years to have children before they had Clare. While they waited for their new home to be constructed they stayed at a upscale apartment complex and were terrorized by anti-semitism--swastikas spray-painted on their door, their car vandalized repeatedly, abusive phone calls....As a result her parents withdrew from the world and became increasingly protective and restrictive of who Clare could associate with. My brother and Clare carried on a secret relationship but when it got serious and her parents found out, they moved across the country and took Clare. I don't think my brother ever recovered completely although it was many years ago and he has since married and has a family.

That was real anti-semitism, Jews being terrorized because of their identity and it should never be mistaken or confused with political policy that condemns those who violate human rights. Otherwise why would so called "anti-semites" on the Left count Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, Naomi Klein, Krugman, Ben Cohen or Bernie Sanders among their heros?

The enemy (Bin Laden) of my enemy (Bush*) is NOT my friend.

Edit: oops, I guess someone beat me to it.

I would be embarrassed to have ordinary Americans read this thread, with all the thinly veiled sympathy for the views of a mass murderer expressed by DUers.

I am opposed to this Administration 1000%, but I will never understand how hatred of anyone could rise to such pathological levels that it would lead one to practically admire a monster like bin Laden, compare US soldiers to terrorists, etc. :puke:

What a reactionary like you thinks is not important. Nobody really expressed admiration for bin Laden, though someone like you who reads at a 5th grade level might easily get that misimpression.

"The US media doesn't like to tell you what Bin Laden wants because then honest Americans would have to admit that he is right."

Did you catch that? A DUer saying he/she agrees with bin Laden's talking points. Say what you will about the troglodytes over at Freepland, but you won't catch them explicitly endorsing the ideology of a fanatical terrorist.

It's people like you who give liberals a bad name. I'm embarrassed.

I agree with the others here, that this was manufactured by Bush--it came right at the time when the people of the USA had to be brought to their knees again, shivering in terror. Just read this thread--I would say that whoever dreamt this one up certainly is a genius. Perhaps Bush with give him'her a raise for this one. Just reading the hatred and the emotional calls for revenge in this thread, without paying much attention to the facts, shows what an asset it was to "keep Bin Laden alive" He may be dead for all we know, but for practical purposes, Bush has kept him "alive" and now you can plainly see why. We are vulnerable human \beings especially when in the fearful and the revenge and the hate mode. Putty in Bush's hands.