Nobelist blasts USA in Stockholm

A Nobelist's cri de coeur
By Sarah Lyall The New York Times

WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 7, 2005

LONDON The playwright Harold Pinter turned his Nobel Prize acceptance speech on Wednesday into a howl of outrage against American foreign policy, saying that the United States had not only lied to justify waging war against Iraq, but had also "supported and in many cases engendered every right-wing military dictatorship in the world after the end of the Second World War."

"The crimes of the United States have been systematic, constant, vicious, remorseless, but very few people have actually talked about them," Pinter said.

"You have to hand it to America. It has exercised a quite clinical manipulation of power worldwide while masquerading as a force for universal good. It's a brilliant, even witty, highly successful act of hypnosis."

Pinter, 75, delivered his speech via a recorded video that was played on Wednesday at the Swedish Academy in Stockholm. Diagnosed with esophageal cancer several years ago, he was ordered by his doctors not to travel to Stockholm for the speech or for the formal presentation of the Nobel Prize in Literature, which is to take place on Saturday.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/12/07/news/nobel.php

Pinter's background here :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinter

BTW Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all..

They all hate Bush with a passion. I believe the Europeans still like the Americans. Granted, it was easier to say, "Don't blame me in 2000. Last year, however, that alibi got a little more difficult.

:smoke: Great Photo, and Happy Holidays to you!!! Nice Kerry T-shirt.:smoke:

He uses "all" terminology -- "United States"... "Americans". He means all of us, including the liberals, not just Bush.

the words "American FOREIGN policy" are recurrent. Saying "United States" is a metaphor for their leadership. Besides in one passage, he says that the "American leadership tricks the public with their words".

Again, Pinter is the Jesus figure of the anti-American crowd in the UK. They are also specific
about their hatred -- they even have bigoted ethnic slurs for us.

"Many thousands, if not millions, of people in the United States itself are demonstrably sickened, shamed and angered by their government's actions, but as things stand they are not a coherent political force ? yet. But the anxiety, uncertainty and fear which we can see growing daily in the United States is unlikely to diminish."

http://nobelprize.org/literature/laureates/2005/pinter-lecture-e.html

Hasn't he read the news lately? 71 million people voted for John Kerry. Far more now
are against George Bush. Many THOUSANDS? Sounds to me like "some of my best friends are
gay/Jewish/French/German, etc."

Are we a coherent movement? Well, we might have been if our familial nations had made so
much as a peep when our elections were stolen.

specially in foreign politics. There was nothing fundamentally different in Kerry's Iraq's approach and Bush's, except that Kerry said that to win the war the US had to be more careful with its allies. At that time going against the war, its illegallity, WMDS etc... would have meant a landslide for Bush.

Today it's different, only one year after. Which shows that Americans cannot be fooled forever.

The only reason I voted for Kerry (and the reason the vast majority of Americans voted for Kerry)
is due to our hatred of Bush. It was NOT a pro-Kerry perspective in the least. It was an anti-Bush
one. A vote for Kerry shouldn't be seen as anything other than a "hold your nose" no-vote to Bush.

He still has to dance with the same international goon squad that Bush does. BushCo has killed to keep
its powerbase. They'll do it again if they have to. So I tend to give those who are daring enough to
take them on more than a little leeway.

We weren't fooled the first time. The majority of Americans voted against George Bush or were too young/incapable
of voting.

BTW, I want to thank you for your civil, intelligent comments.

Now I really do have to get back to work. :)

:)

If you see the whole of the American political power machine as compromised, then party divisions don't even begin to address the real corruption of our democracy.

Go and read the speech. There is a passage where he talks about "the American people", saying it's specifically a phrase designed to keep them comfortable in speeches by American presidents.

He does talk about the "United States" as carrying out the coups, invasions, and so on. And that is correct - it is the state that does these things. And it's not just the present government he's criticising - it's many governments, streching back many years, and the military, and Congress - and therefore people who elect some of these institutions. "Unites States" is absolutely the correct phrase to use. Don't try to wash your hands of it.

>and Congress - and therefore people who elect some of these institutions. "Unites States"

That's clear you're talking about the electorate. But it also underscores a lack of understanding
about the purposive narrow array of choices in this country. Both parties have allowed for two
issues (abortion and gun control) to effectively split the country down the center. Those citizens
aren't voting their genuine opinions -- do you think I really want Diane Feinstein to represent my
ideas? We're fighting for survival. It's a matter of the lesser of the two evils. Whichever you're
left with, its still evil.

These aren't easily packaged ideas. The problem is Pinter's remarks completely exclude the genuine
complicity of Europe (if we're to use all-isms) in all this -- isn't that handy, since he's European.
He's refusing all responsibility, in exchange for building up this obnoxious EU world order that is
every bit as dangerous as the US-based one. That monster in the Vatican took the patron saint of Europe
as his name. If that doesn't underscore a truly nasty building trend, nothing does. This is a cultural
war of titans. In the end, we'll still be left with monsters at the helm.

When we speak of America, what else are we talking about but the whole country? In fact, I'd have less
of an issue with the use of the word "American", since that is a specific trait conveyed on the object
of the statement and is therefore qualified.

I should also point out the tendency for primates to infer all'isms. I do think Pinter is talking about
all of us, but even if he's not, he's only confining the problem to the US.

He blames Blair, as well as Bush. He says "We have brought torture ..." - clearly including his own country, and maybe himself as a citizen. He wants Blair tried for war crimes. He says Sweden is an 'honourable exception' to hosting American bases - so all the European countries that do host the bases are dishonourable.

Your claim that he 'completely excludes' Europe is wrong. He's not refusing responsibility at all. Yes, he blames the United States the most - but then, they've bombed more countries. He doesn't mention the EU, so I haven't the faintest idea why you do. Nor can I see why you think the Pope's name is remotely relevant. You sound as if you think Pinter is league with the Pope to praise Europe and be anti-American. I'm sure that isn't what you really think, because it would be crazy, but if you read your words again, you may see why your non sequitors give that impression.

'Primates'? You're expanding the audience for Pinter to Monkeys and lemurs? What on earth do you mean? - I can't even see that as a typo.

Muriel, lets keep this to non-personal attacks, shall we? If you can't do that,
then the discussion is ended.

>they've bombed more countries

All "white world" wars have been conducted with the complete knowledge of all parties. No country
is any less "guilty" than any other -- the US and UK were both complicit in the rise of Hitler, for instance. If you don't know that, then you lack information on the last fifty years of world affairs or, perhaps, merely don't want to see it.

>He doesn't mention the EU

There are EU versus US issues in many of his rants. I'd recommend you checking out a number of books
on this topic. There's a whole "EuroWorld" mindset in the EU left. I read about it regularly.

>You sound as if you think Pinter is league with the Pope

Anything as important as the naming of a Pope goes through many channels, many of them political. The Vatican is intensely political and VERY influential. I can't inform you on all this, but much of it you'll have to educate yourself about. That isn't my job.

>You sound as if you think Pinter is league with the Pope to praise Europe and be anti-American.

That would be an uninformed, out of context, simplistic interpretation, yes, but that isn't what I meant.

>'Primates'?

It's not. That remark was in reference to my earlier comments viz-a-viz anthropology. We are primates. We act according to primate pack dynamics. That's all politics is. In fact, we're amazingly crude primates at that. Gorillas have a much more sophisticated interpersonal behavior standard than we do.

I'm just criticising your weird posts in this thread. I'm not making personal attacks either.

Strangely enough, the rise of Hitler doesn't come into the last fifty years of history. Another red herring? However, I think it's a stretch to say that the USA or UK weren't less guilty for WW2 than Germany. Hitler invaded countries. It's wrong to say that European countries are just as guilty as the USA for, say, supporting the Contras. Or invading Panama. And so on.

No, I can't find anything he's written on the EU v. US. Try giving us links rather than make blind claims. Since he doesn't make any reference to the EU in his speech, and there's no obvious recurring theme of the EU in his writings on the web, it's up to you to show it has any relevance at all.

Again, you have given no explanation whatsoever what the Pope has to do with this. It looks like another red herring. And try explaining what you meant - it doesn't look as though anyone else on this thread got any meaning from you either.

You talked about "the tendency for primates to infer all'isms". What on earth have gorillas got to do with this? How are 'pack dynamics' connected to "all'isms'"? By "all'isms", I presume you mean taking a phrase that refers to a group to refer to all of its members - but phrases only happen in human behaviour.

Gorillas do not have "a more sophisticated interpersonal behavior standard than we do". That is an absurd statement. We have complicated languages and societies.

Take me off your dance card. You're already off mine. You're either consciously trying to
miss my point or something.

Last post to the thread. Say your last, too.

I should point out that "dance" is a metaphor, in this instance, for two people acting in concert
to a specific direction. No, there has been no literal polka or foxtrot involved.

No-one here seems to have understood them; and your facts have been frequently wrong. Go ahead and correct your facts. Re-explain what your points are. That's what discussion forums are for.

(and I'm only guessing from this and other threads), that anyone who has a beef with American foreign policy over the last 60 years is simply a "racist" who "hates Americans." Now leaving aside for a moment that the artificial construct of race is inappropriately applied to American citizens as a whole, the prime directive seems to be to deflect any and all criticism of those deadly, destructive policies which Mr Pinter so boldly highlighted.

Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
Step outta line they come and take you away

It's time to STOP, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's goin' round...

Cool Pic!



I have the video up (I converted the RealMedia file) into Flash 8 and downloadable as a WMV file from here

http://www.chris-floyd.com/pinter/

It's a tribute page of sorts. Please spread the word. It's important that people see this video or read the speech and they are both on this page.

http://www.chris-floyd.com/pinter/

Cheers

DD.

:kick:

George's EU buddies are just trying to shift the blame in case the going gets tough for the US-based end of the global fascist network. That way they can blame it all on us (evil Americans), hope for a nuke or two to kill us all, and the "new, improved" EU brand of global fascism keeps right on going. Wasn't it handy the timing of all this? Too bad for those evil Americans. Yes, all their people are just "deluded idiots".

Pinter has to be the most overvalued hack in the history of theatre and letters. As much as I hate BushCo, his insistence in making this a racist slam at the US is repulsive.

But they are not worse than Pat Oliphant's depiction of Bush as Hitler in the WP today

Regarding "George's EU buddies" I think they are quite few today. I think that Europe (and most of its citizens) makes a HUGE difference between Americans and their government. My wife goes to school with a lot of people of different backgrounds, many of them muslims. She has never been harassed. Just saying that you don't agree with Bush open hearts and minds.

I saw a TV show today with different experts discussing Rice and the secret prisons. They all agree about the fact that the US has gone - once again - too far. It's one thing to turn a blind eye over a couple of "secret flights" in the name of good cooperation in the war on terror. It's another to accept a system, kidnapping of citizens etc... it is a violation of national sovereignty. Besides the two "secret prisons" were located in Poland and Romania. In the second case it's more a need of cash than ideological sharings.

Another aspect is that Europe is the primary source of US intelligence, obtained without torture (which according to an interviewed DGSE agent amazes CIA folk : "how do you do that ?). Nowadays the EU powers are afraid that the "American elephant" will "as usual" destroy their patiently elaborated network of intelligence, which dates back to the beginning of the 90s (Algerian fundamentalism) and has tremendous experience.

Pinter's words are specific. He's a writer, words are his stock in trade. He chooses those words for a reason. He never
once sets apart the American people from the leadership. If it isn't clear that there has been a profound and struggling
liberal movement in this country for a long time, I don't know how clear it might be to anyone.

It's really deeply disturbing to deal with right-wing anti-French and anti-German bias, as I do every day, and then turn around and see my own people attacked by Pinter in words far worse than I've ever heard from a Yank. It makes a reasonable American wonder why he/she should bother.

I just emailed the old jerk and told him to cheer up -- we'll probably all be dead in a nuclear holocaust as soon as the global fascist
brigade can manage it - as soon as the US fascist brigade hops the pond, of course. I'm sure the Carlyle Group would be happy to
put them up.

had you a mind to, please do make note of the reference to "racist" vis-a-vis Pinter's slam against U.S. foreign policy. It will give you a clue as to what you are confronting here.

Admitting, without needing to "defend," that Amurikka is NOT what she claims to be frees me from problems or conflicts with those I encounter on this side of the pond. They don't "HATE" Americans. They are taken aback, confused, outraged, feel betrayed and simply want to know "WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE???" It IS a valid question.

Tell them Harry - absolutely brilliant!!

...the United States had not only lied to justify waging war against Iraq, but had also "supported and in many cases engendered every right-wing military dictatorship in the world after the end of the Second World War."

"The crimes of the United States have been systematic, constant, vicious, remorseless, but very few people have actually talked about them," Pinter said.

"You have to hand it to America. It has exercised a quite clinical manipulation of power worldwide while masquerading as a force for universal good. It's a brilliant, even witty, highly successful act of hypnosis."

But while drama represents "the search for truth," he said, politics works in the opposite way, surrounding citizens with "a vast tapestry of lies" spun by politicians eager to cling on power.

Pinter than attacked American foreign policy since World War II, saying that while the crimes of the Soviet Union had been well documented, those of the United States had not.

"I put to you that the United States is without doubt the greatest show on the road," he said. "Brutal, indifferent, scornful and ruthless it may be but it is also very clever. As a salesman it is out on its own and its most saleable commodity is self-love."

Harold is a bigot. Very sad in a man his age, but little we can do about it apparently.

>"I put to you that the United States is without doubt the greatest show on the road,"

My people help found and build the US. There are factions that are profoundly evil, but then there are factions in Europe that are every bit as bad. The very idea of Harold wanting to enshrine Europe as holy and the US as monstrous is the most childish exercise in racism I've ever seen. He's every bit as bigoted as the most backward KKK member.

How would YOU like it if you were told that all your people are evil?

all the people in America. He's talking about the establishment and it's rather well stated. Where I agree with you is that Britain and the rest of Europe are no better.

He attacks the US system, but I don't see a quote where he says that ALL AMERICANS are evil as such. Besides he wants Tony Blair (from his own country) indicted as a war criminal. You can say that his rethorics are exagerated, but don't put words in his mouth.

And "there are factions in Europe that are every bit as bad", no doubt about that. But their lack of greater military power (or access to such) doesn't allow them to fuck up as "big" than the US. And in an argument against the major fucker, the little fuckers are of relative interest.

He thinks Tony Blair is a deluded idiot. He says about Americans:

"The crimes of the United States have been systematic, constant, vicious, remorseless, but very few people have actually talked about them," Pinter said.

The crimes of the United States -- he's speaking of all of the country. If he isn't speaking of us all, he ought to be quite certain of his wording. This is the kind of crap that creates bigotry in the minds of young people. He's the hero of the anti-American "septic tank" bunch in the UK, so I tend to think he is saying just what I have understood him to say.


"You have to hand it to America. It has exercised a quite clinical manipulation of power worldwide while masquerading as a force for universal good. It's a brilliant, even witty, highly successful act of hypnosis."

He damns us all with that -- I'm part of America. My family has been for 300 years. If he isn't damning us all, he's using awfully
high-handed and incendiary rhetoric.

As for the "evil" remark -- one would have to be a sociopath to do the things he has suggested America (all of us) has done.

has used (uses) words like freedom etc... to motivate its politics. About the crimes of the US administration (I see mostly the support to horrendous dictatorships all over the world and at least two illegal wars), it's an exageration to say that "very few people have actually talked about them". But in the context of the reelection of Bush, the support to Reagan etc... there is a feeling that many Americans don't take that very seriously. Probably because they are the victims of their own myths and overall poorly informed.

That doesn't make them as a whole into bunch of criminals, no more than the Germans can be blamed to all be "nazis".

We're twixt a rock and a hard place. How many times do we have to point out to people that the election was stolen? It was
stolen TWICE. The BBC has covered it, but the simple fact of the matter is many people would just choose to think we're all Bushites,
because it makes it easier to hate us.

Reagan is not supported -- in fact, he's more popular in the UK than he is here. Reagan's policies benefited the global tyrants.
He did no good at all for the average American. Had there not been the Democrats, our people would be living in circumstances
similar to a third-world country (and in many cases we do anyway). I mean, there are Americans living without water and heat in
the Appalachians right now. They carry in water and cook on wood and coal stoves. It enrages me to see how the international
liberal movement has turned Americans into this international "bad guy", when we're enemy number one for these people and have
been for ages.

International folk at least have governments concerned with their well-being. We have no one watching out for us. The only
people on watch have us first and foremost in their crossfire 24/7.

Oh, well, I've posted to this topic ten times in an hour (I type too fast). It's deeply hurtful to see this kind of thing from the liberal movement in Europe. I'm hopeful that Pinter was a little less extremist in his views versus my understanding of his statements, but I doubt it. That said, I have work to do and there is no rest for anyone in Bush's America.

The simple fact of the matter is that it is true that the US federal government under both Democratic and Republican administrations in the last 60 years since the end of WW2 has and continues to support authoritarian dictatorships and oligarchies both explicitly and implicitly from giving China "most favored nation" trading status or however it was named to supporting the House of Saud in Saudi Arabia, which doesn't give a damn about what the people think. Nevermind the brutal wars it prosecuted in places like Vietnam both directly or indirectly from the jungles of Central America to the mountains of Iran under the brutality of the US-backed Shah.

I see the same words you are seeing. I see him attacking our government, and it deserves to be attacked and attacked again for the atrocities it has committed in the last 60 years. You see him as attacking everything American, but I don't see that.

for those who are not too blinded by their own baggage to read:

http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,1661516,00.html

They came couched in insults. Welcome to my ignore list, Mr. Schwarzenegger. ;)

Your comments about Pinter's art as well as his speech
expose nothing but your own biases and misreading (although
it's easy to misread something you haven't read). (smiley thing)

But, melody sounds like a nationalist to me, in other words, Pinter's speech hits way to close to home.

Having been living abroad myself, sometimes you really feel very tired of the bashing against your country, even if you totally disagree with the deeds of your leadership.

Only for the people in the country. Whether a guy from Britian "bashes" the country with truth is of no concern for me. The thing I hate the most is not the bashing, its how the political parties, on both sides, ROB the people to create this fucked up foriegn policy to begin with. I don't care whether we are the richest, the most powerful militarily, or even the most respected country in the world, as long as the poorest citizens of this country have access to the most basic needs(food, shelter, water, health care), without those, the country is an unmitigated failure in my eyes.

I am on these boards quite often defending all kinds of people against irrational biases. Feel free to search for my ID. I've defended every possible nationality. I have a white paper I can send you arguing back to the individuals who wrote the moronic Bell Curve.

I'm also, by training, an ethnologist. Cultural biases are inclusive in that. If you want to disagree with my arguments, please do so and show your work, as Tocqueville does, don't hurl what you intend to be insults at me because of what you think I'm saying.

I'm merely taking Pinter literally (and having written a paper on the Matchseller -- a two hour play about a fly stuck in marmalade -- I admit to a bit of a bias against him, too). If there's a lesson in this, it's greater understanding and clarity among people. If he's not saying he hates all of us, then I'm not disagreeing with him. If he's only dismissing the American government, then we're on the same page. I hate the state of government in this country as much as anyone (probably more). My problem is that Pinter is a heroic figure to a certain group of UK nationals who hate us as a people. They're anti-American in scope and function. If the trend was reversed, and the group was in the US and hated the UK, I would be arguing with them. The hours I went round and round on my own
little forum with freepers dissing the French.

I'm not anything with an "ist" at the end. I'm a person. I want the same for other people that I would like for my own family, nothing more and nothing less. Ideology is the enemy, not the answer.

by and large, so basically I view the United States influence on the world, for the past 60 years or so, as negative. Due to either direct or indirect actions, the United States is responsible for about a hundred thousand deaths per year for each of those years, and probably much more. That equals at least 6 million dead, give or take a million or so. Hate to break Godwin's law, but really, what is the difference between holocaust by proxy(what we practice) and holocaust directly(what Nazi Germany did)?

The thing that aggrivates me is this, we have the same symptoms as the Germans did post World War 2, none of them were Nazis, and apparently, no Americans were aware of these atrocities either. This isn't to say other nations are responsible for their own atrocities, but the United States and Soviet Union were the superpowers of the age at the time, and played a tug of war with the people of the third world, leading to the deaths and suppression of many in those numerous nations.

I will say I apologize for spouting off when it wasn't necessary, but, even if he has a bias, it isn't necessarily wrong, or inaccurate, in fact, it seems to be spot on, sad to say. I had relatives who died by the Nazis' hand, not for being of some race or religion the Nazis didn't like, but for being decent human beings. Nazis took exception for those who tried to smuggle out Jews during that time of course. But my question always was, what happened to those who ratted them out? Those normal Germans who apparently did what any "decent" citizen of the nation did, and talked to the SS? Why weren't they given the noose?

This is something that is always hard for those who lived during times like that, but I have to ask the question here. Do most Americans really care about the atrocities of Abu Graib, or Guatamano? As far as I can tell, they don't, and that is disturbing, for they are on the same level as the so called "Good Germans" of Nazi Germany. Granted, now most Americans are against this war, but that is simply for two reasons, one is the casualties of American Troops is up, and going up quickly, and two, there is no end in sight. They do NOT want a reenactment of Vietnam, another atrocity we perpetuated on another people. When is it proper to separate a people from the actions of the government, when the people are cowed by fear? When they possibly elect the government into place? When they bought the lies of false promises and the lie of patriotism? My taxes pay for things like Jose Padilla being thrown in jail with no due process, with countless, nameless others. How am I not guilty of the same crimes that Bush himself, along with Congress, by paying for these crimes against humanity?

We are exhibiting bigotry. Do you realize there are people who hate you because you're American? Hate your mother
and your brother and your other family members? They would dismiss your protestations that you're a good person, just as
Pinter apparently tried to condemn all of us. Stereotypes and racism don't start in a vacuum. They evolve over time.
The people who hate us simply because we're American aren't doing so for any better reasons than when my father used to
cackle about the evil Russians. He had plenty of facts and numbers to support his bias also, but it didn't make him any
more right than anyone who hates us. It's easy to find any number of minutiae to support your theory. Anyone who isn't
able to argue the most outlandish theory is simply not being imaginative enough.

Whichever country is in power does the very same things. This isn't a factor of nationality - it's a human problem. We
all share it in equal degrees. We're born with the same capacities. We will make the same mistakes. Until we stop turning
this into a global Alpha primate war with thermonuclear feces, we are never, ever escaping the circle.

edited to correct my crappy Latin

You either did not read the speech
or your personal bias is preventing you from
understanding what you're reading.
Unless ... youre part of BushCo, which I'm
sure youre not. (smiley thing)
You should really read his powerful
& passionate speech and try to let go of your hatred
of Pinter and his Nobel Prize-winning art.

Pinter is a very powerful figure. I think we need to confront ethnic bigotry wherever it occurs. When I read his text (and I have read his passionate and powerful speech -- lots of scary and negative people are passionate and powerful, such as George Bush - although at least Pinter can probably spell above a grammar school level), that is what I'm reading. I see no exclusions in his statements. I see no consideration of another factor -- in fact, when he does pitch us a condescending nicety, it's damnation through faint praise.

I don't care if he has won the Nobel Prize. All that is is recognition that he shares the artistic prejudices of the Nobel committee.
I'm more concerned with the hatred and future bias he might be inspiring, perhaps unconsciously.

I suggest you set side your bias toward Pinter to read what I have said. You may or may not agree with it, but I would hope people
of good will can disagree on matters without becoming unpleasant.

that Pinter, in his speech, is insulting you, personally.
Everyone else seems to understand that he is judging not
you or me or the American people, but the government of Bush
which has set and implemented foreign policy.

Regardless, using pack dynamic to attack the argument isn't itself an argument. Lots of people are all wrong at the same time -- witness the (supposed) 2004 election. We all only have our individual opinions on things -- there's no external authority to "check our work" with -- so each one is valid. And I've stated my thoughts.

That should be the end of this thread and is, so far as I'm concerned.

and also read things that aren't there (e.g., in Pinter's speech,
in this thread, etc.). Old pain gets in the way of seeing clearly.
I wish you well with it.

Lots of people have been incorrect in large numbers.

I'm as entitled to my subjective assessments as Pinter is. At least
I'm qualifying mine.

of your own bias for just as long as you want. There is simply
nothing in that speech to support your "subjective assessments."
The fact that you're the only one who takes the speech as a personal
insult should give you added determination to continue to try to knock
down that wall (whether it's there or not). By the way, how'd that
term paper on Pinter turn out?

>By the way, how'd that term paper on Pinter turn out?

I received an A. See, in college we were allowed differences of
opinion to be stated without personal attacks. My professor loved
Pinter.

Welcome to my ignore list, yet again. :eyes:

Pinter didn't say what you said he said and
I didn't insult you (by the way, calling
what you say bullshit is not a personal attack on DU).
But of course you have me on ignore so you're not even
reading this (big smiley), or else I'd wish you well and hope that you
unload some of the baggage that may prevent you from reading
and understanding the words that are on the page. Oh,
congrats on the A!

I've just read the transcript and it's clear that Pinter is attacking the US Government and its foreign policies, not the American people. Ethnic bigotry? You must be joking.

Also, anti-Americanism, where it exists in Europe, is nearly always a rejection of US foreign policy and sometimes a resentment of American culture, not a hatred of the people.

I'm not sure what else to say. If one comes to the text with the opinion that Pinter isn't knocking Americans, one sees
that he's not (and vice versa). However, Pinter has very strong allegiances with some fairly obnoxious anti-American groups
in the UK. Pinter may dance around (although he is very specific with his terms -- he speaks of all of the United States,
without exception -- and "America", without exclusion) the concept, but there isn't a similar restriction in the opinions
of the anti-American youth groups. They, quite frankly, concern me, as does Max Athaby and the anti-French mindset of the
far-right in the US (the "freedom fries" contingent). This is the way new pervasive bigotry evolves -- through an array of
acceptances that go unchallenged.

Why is the contention that it's ethnic bigotry funny to you? We are our own nationality. Prejudice is identified as bias
against people based upon national origin.

>a resentment of American culture

American culture (genuine American culture) is the expression of the people.

Fast food? Malls? Cable news? Nationally promoted fisticuffs over Seasons' Greetings? Shop till you drop? Kick their ass, take their gas?
Irrational nationlism? American exceptionalism?
:popcorn:

Methinks the lady doth protest too much...

I'm not sure what else to say. If one comes to the text with the opinion that Pinter isn't knocking Americans, one sees
that he's not (and vice versa). However, Pinter has very strong allegiances with some fairly obnoxious anti-American groups
in the UK. Pinter may dance around (although he is very specific with his terms -- he speaks of all of the United States,
without exception -- and "America", without exclusion) the concept, but there isn't a similar restriction in the opinions
of the anti-American youth groups. They, quite frankly, concern me, as does Max Athaby and the anti-French mindset of the
far-right in the US (the "freedom fries" contingent). This is the way new pervasive bigotry evolves -- through an array of
acceptances that go unchallenged.

Why is the contention that it's ethnic bigotry funny to you? We are our own nationality. Prejudice is identified as bias
against people based upon national origin.

>a resentment of American culture

American culture (genuine American culture) is the expression of the people.

Mr Pinter has been regularly bashed for speaking the truth of American hegemony to power. He is eloquent, does not mince words and sees the big picture quite clearly. It's obvious some posters here cannot handle the truth.


Americans marching beneath a banner proclaiming "Proud of My Country, Shamed by My President" will lead a demonstration against George Bush during his state visit next week. The Stop the War Coalition, which is organizing the rally, expects up to 100,000 people to take to the streets of London and express their hostility to the American President.

<snip>

A spokesman for the Stop the War Coalition said: "We are not anti the American people - in fact many share our reservations about President Bush. This is about the President. There are 500 local Stop the War groups who are bringing people from around the country and the phones are ringing non-stop. We are making 6,000 placards."

The march represents the main event in four days of anti-Bush events, for which the President has drafted in an entourage of more than 500 people, including up to 200 secret service and security personnel. On Tuesday activists are organizing a public rally in London with high-profile speakers including the acclaimed playwright and actor Harold Pinter, and the Vietnam veteran Ron Kovic, whose story inspired the Tom Cruise film Born on the Fourth of July. The former Labour cabinet minister Tony Benn and George Galloway MP, who was recently thrown out of the Labour Party for his public comments about the war, will also speak.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1115-01.htm

Other British observers insist that what's growing here isn't anti-Americanism, but rather healthy criticism of a superpower gone awry. "Being critical of U.S. policy does not constitute a prejudice," said Godfrey Hodgson, a veteran journalist and author. "A vast majority of the British people are favorable to the United States, but a substantial majority are opposed to George W. Bush."

Much of the outrage is indeed aimed at Bush, whose colloquial speaking style and Texas accent don't go over well here. A cartoon in last Sunday's Observer newspaper depicted him as the Lone Ranger and Blair as Tonto. When Blair expresses doubts about the Iraq campaign, Bush replies: "Shut up, Tonto, and cover my back."

"Bush is a gift for anti-American cartoonists," Timothy Garton Ash, director of the European Studies Center at St. Antony's College at Oxford University, said. "If Bill Clinton were still in the White House, I suspect it'd be a very different story."

Garton Ash insists that anti-Americanism is not moving into the British mainstream. "America is the new Rome, the hyper-power, and when you're the imperial power, you get a lot of stick," he said. "But this isn't a clash of civilizations between Europe and America."

http://www.onlisareinsradar.com/archives/000867.php

In fact, in the eyes of most Americans, my attitudes would run along the lines of being an Anti-American. But you are right about this being a human problem, remember I'm a cynic, and while my post is directed at Americans, that is simply because that is what I know, and they are THE power in the world today. Britian did the same shit in the past, France in Algiers, etc. Not saying its isolated to one nation or nationality. But that also doesn't excuse them either, regardless of who perpetuates atrocities, both large and small, it doesn't matter who it is, its inexcusable. Human Beings, as a general rule, are violent, abusive to their local enviroments, and abusive to each other. Me, personally, I don't view myself as any better that an SS guard, why should I? We are of the same basic genetic stock, and our enviroments influenced our decisions, for good or ill. If my enviroment was just a little different, I could become a guard at a concentration camp easily enough, I realize that. The fact that I'm not doesn't really mean anything, for if things actually do become as bad as they can possibly be, who knows what atrocities I would personally take part in. Its one of those intellectual excersizes I take part in that simply wants me to wander into the woods and never encounter another human ever again.

But then again I don't, because, while I realize that I can become, potentially, a camp guard, I can also be an MLK, or a Ghandi. Sinner or Saint, that is the question, I choose a path of isolation, isolation from those who both hate Americans, and those who love them too. I know this dialog probably sounds really depressing, but, you ask if I care that some people hate me or my family for being Americans, I really don't care, at this point in history, we deserve it. This isn't to justify any atrocities commited against Americans, but then again, they are only words. Most people are assholes, I just try not to be an asshole back, though it is hard, living in a "flyover state" to actually keep this attitude.

Let me expand on that last remark, maybe then you can somewhat understand where I'm coming from. I'm a white gen Xer from a moderately middle class family in a Red County in a Red State. Actually, I grew up poor, but by the time I was about 12 to 13 we were actually able to afford to rent, and eventually buy, a house of modest size. Anyways, couple of things stick out about my life, first, most of my friends, growing up, were not white, in an area where you could count the amount of non-white people on one hand. It just sort of fell out that way, I was never aware of any thought given by me about who I should or should not associate with. Anyways this is not to say that I grew up without prejudice or bigotry, I did, but it sort of grew in the opposite direction. Almost like clockwork, especially in my late teens and early twenties, but even today, damn near every time I'm with a group that is all white, some type of racial joke, racist comment, or other such bullshittery has been spewed by someone there, with no condemnation by the others in the group, including me. Eventually my resistance just broke down, and I use that alone as a litmus test as to who can possibly be a friend or not. I'm now loud, abrasive, and abusive to those damned WASPs that spew such remarks, and now avoid most of them so that I don't encounter that type of shit anymore. Most white people are racist, sounds like a fact, but in reality, its a prejudice, and one that I proudly proclaim I hold. Now I'm more cautious than ever around white people, I don't like most, and I'm surprised at the provincial attitudes these people hold. I'm racist, I admit that, just one who hates the culture that brings up people with attitudes like what most white people hold.

This is why I'm slightly amused by the things like people making generalizations against mostly white America. I cannot, in good conscious, condemn them for a simple reason, I agree with them, and harbor the same prejudices. But what do I know, I just grew up in this country, its not like I'm an expert, nor do I claim to be.

I wish you well with it.

Thanks for the transcript.
<snip>
I put to you that the United States is without doubt the greatest show on the road. Brutal, indifferent, scornful and ruthless it may be but it is also very clever. As a salesman it is out on its own and its most saleable commodity is self love. It's a winner. Listen to all American presidents on television say the words, 'the American people', as in the sentence, 'I say to the American people it is time to pray and to defend the rights of the American people and I ask the American people to trust their president in the action he is about to take on behalf of the American people.'

It's a scintillating stratagem. Language is actually employed to keep thought at bay. The words 'the American people' provide a truly voluptuous cushion of reassurance. You don't need to think. Just lie back on the cushion. The cushion may be suffocating your intelligence and your critical faculties but it's very comfortable. This does not apply of course to the 40 million people living below the poverty line and the 2 million men and women imprisoned in the vast gulag of prisons, which extends across the US.

The United States no longer bothers about low intensity conflict. It no longer sees any point in being reticent or even devious. It puts its cards on the table without fear or favour. It quite simply doesn't give a damn about the United Nations, international law or critical dissent, which it regards as impotent and irrelevant. It also has its own bleating little lamb tagging behind it on a lead, the pathetic and supine Great Britain.

I do so wish others of his stature would make similar speeches EVERY DAY.
Kick for Pinter! :kick:

as shorthand for its government?

e.g. "Japan attacked Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941."

That doesn't mean that all the people of Japan participated or even supported the attack. It means that it was carried out under the orders of the Japanese government.

That's exactly what Pinter is doing here, and he's exactly right.

Pinter's words must be taken in context with his alliances and his previously stated opinions.

U.S. has done in foreign policy since the Korean War.

He is speaking of America, to the exclusion of Europe. Europe is as complicit in the crap these
empire builders are doing as the US is. The UK used to rule the world, then the US stepped
in to fill the gap, however there's no real difference. They're playing an international shell
game of epic proportions.

Pinter is part of that EU dominant trend. Based upon other comments he's made, his alliances,
and his own statements here, I infer that he's talking about all of us, not merely the right
wing.

:shrug:

Not to Americans in general. You seem to have a problem with the common shorthand of using the name of a country to refer to its government (see for instance news headlines such as "France moves to block Turkey EU bid", et cetera). And it gets a bit awkward to either write or say "the American government" or "successive US presidential administrations", EVERY SINGLE TIME one refers to it. Seriously, now...can you deny that the United States government has much blood on its collective hands? The US government has: supported dictators and thugs (like Somoza, the Shah, Pinochet, Saddam, and quite a few others), has toppled democratically elected governments, has (either through the CIA or local agents thereof) assassinated foreign political figures (Patrice Lumumba comes to mind right away), and done much else besides under the banner of "freedom and democracy", and these actions go back at least to the presidency of William McKinley.

And...your family's been part of America 300 years? Congratulations. Mine's been here longer. I suppose you probably have ancestors who fought in the Revolution, perhaps for the Union in the Civil War, and probably a father, uncle, grandfather or great-uncle who fought in WWII...do you think an America that does these things is what they fought for? Logically, one would think you'd be angry at the perversion of supposed American ideals that Pinter's words are an indictment of. Instead, your anger is for the messenger.

Listen, its clear Pinter has a lot of defenders. I promise you, people who defend folks from the US are not
easy to come by on this board simply because of this claw-hammer approach by some of the DU people. Some of the
posts in response border on personal attacks and I hope we can keep this to facts and resist personalized
disagreement.

You are reading a whole lot into my words that isn't there, and you would condemn me for taking Pinter at his
word?

My point was, my family has no other ethnic identification. They left the UK a long time ago and I doubt
seriously that people from Yorkshire or Belfast are going to recognize people who left there as long ago
as that as even remotely ethnic to the region. That's my intention -- I'm not Italian-American or German-
American or what have you. Do you ever hear of anyone called English-American?

Incidentally, my ancestor who fought in the Civil War did so on the side of Dixie. That's a complicated issue
that isn't given to simple assumptions. My grandparents (from the south) were liberal Democrats who fought
segregation and all the other local evils. They instilled in me a deep antipathy for racism and any form of
bias. That's why I went onto study ethnology in college.

It may be awkward to always say "the American government", but if you're a 12 year old schoolchild and you see
a reference like that to "America", you're not going to infer beyond that. We should put the interpretations
of 12 year olds on a level with most bigots. They see Pinter's words as bolstering their own opinions. His
comments also allow Europe to entirely overstep their role in it, if we're to use all'isms, and assume that its
all an American problem.

What is going on with Bush is not merely an American phenomenon. These are global fascists. They're in Europe as
much as they are the US. This is a European world problem and it existed a long time before the US was anything
more than the land of my grandmother's people. Perhaps that's a uniquely American Indian perspective, hm?

>can you deny that the United States government

Heavens no. Why do you think I'm here? I've been writing about the Bush crime family for twenty years. But
the behaviors of these people should be seen as a pan-European problem, not as an America only issue. Doing so
allows them to draw all the fire toward the US and, once we've been bombed into extinction, allows them to go
on unchecked in the rest of the world. The Carlyle Group is not based in the USA.

Very American. American founders, American chairman, based in the American capital. Why you bring it up in a discussion about Pinter, I can't tell. Do you enjoy red herrings?

American founder? Absolutely. It has an office in Washington, DC as well as most major cities. It is not, however, officially based in the US. Its international headquarters is in Zug, Switzerland (hardly surprising, given the Marc Rich implications). Among its members, Queen Elizabeth, John Major, and a host of other folk of similar rank and privilege.

Their own words. Who do you think are right - the Carlyle Group, or you? What language do you think 'LLC' is in?

Have you a obsession with painting Europe in a bad light?

No, I love Europe. My people are from Europe. What I'm after is fairness.

Lets leave it at that.

into the source of the "problem" as expressed in your posts...

"My point was, my family has no other ethnic identification. They left the UK a long time ago and I doubt seriously that people from Yorkshire or Belfast are going to recognize people who left there as long ago as that as even remotely ethnic to the region. That's my intention -- I'm not Italian-American or German-American or what have you. Do you ever hear of anyone called English-American?"

I leave it to those with experience and good reading comprehension skills to share in the irony of the histrionics.

is that "American" ISN'T an ethnic identification. So you're an American of Anglo-Irish descent. (As am I, and my last immigrant ancestor arrived in the US in 1849).

You seem to be taking personal offence at something not directed at Americans for some reason. And I'd say that valid criticism of the actions of the US government is a long way from bigotry, and I'd hardly think that Pinter's remarks were addressed to or intended for 12-year-olds.

"Ethnicity" is any band of qualities or affiliations that create cultural ties. It has nothing to do with pigment or genetic heritage. American is as valid an ethnic group as any other. We all belong to many ethnic groups.

I read Pinter's comments in context with other things he's said, and while taking his thoughts at face value. We each bring to reading our own biases -- I have mine, but you also have yours. I'm just expressing my distaste with what I've read. There is no one definitive interpretation (and not even Pinter can probably nail it down accurately).

> I'd hardly think that Pinter's remarks were addressed to or intended for 12-year-olds.

They will be read by those who are 12 years old and by people without critical thinking skills.

This is my last post to the thread. Thanks for the discussion.

Oh, I hope not.

I truly believe someone needs encouragement to continue her meds. Fortunately she describes herself as white and blonde, so the likelihood of her being "mistakenly" taken out for strange behaviour is reduced.

they do not allow the death penalty. They are free of religious bullying and look what is breaking this morning.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4509530.stm

Who helped 'found' and 'build' the United States... did so on the backs of Black Africans (slaves) and the genocide of Native Americans.

Oh... wait. They were Europeans weren't they?

This is a circular firing squad.

One quarter of my family IS Cherokee. And to try to divide African Americans from the south from southern whites is ludicrous. We're all one people with different pigmentation. Ali himself is half
Irish.

Why is it so many DU folk post to others arguing with what they think they're saying and then knock me for doing the same to Pinter? hmmmm

Personally, I think you're a victim of the 'Melting Pot'. The American phenomena that essentially legislates cultural genocide in the form of prepackaged American ideals and standards - forced over a cultural mosaic.

Pinter represents a threat to an illusion. Because the package you are talking about - the 'ideal' American or the very 'white' Norman Rockwellesque mirage that has been set as the high bar - is vapour. The 'Norman Rockwellesque' Americans dwould never bombs that melt the http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/">skin off of children in urban areas full of civilians... 'Norman Rockwellesque' Americans don't start wars, they defend 'freedoms'.

Pinter has been one of the most vocal critics of the Blair gang over the Iraq war and if you read his writings in the Guardian or the Independent - you'd realise that. The powers that be, the machinations behind the facade, are really and truly dispicable in America and the UK at the current time. In the US, it's the ignorance of the masses, blindly fed Faux News and having constant rhetoric and propaganda shoved down their throats to maintain the modern "Norman Rockwell" brushstrokes that continue to delude them.

First of all, you don't know me, you clearly haven't read more than a smattering of posts, so please restrict your comments to
my arguments. I confess, I love my country. I'm sorry, I disagree with you that it has been nothing but a negative presence.
There are many, many patriotic liberals. Most of them don't post on these topics here because we tend to get shouted down by the international left. It's a truly weird experience to agree on so many things with so many people and still be regarded as the
enemy.

I have great admiration for the democratic roots of this country and would like to see us return to them. We've become more the thing we were trying to escape than any antidote to it.

What especially enrages me is that Pinter limited the number of liberals to "a few thousand, even millions". The fact of the matter is the majority of Americans despise George Bush -- not just "disapprove", but actively despise him. We have to deal, day to day, with what he's doing to us as people. Pinter doesn't -- you don't. The very idea he would overlook the millions and millions of people who fight everyday against the machine in this country, simply because he hates the real estate we were born on, is obnoxious. If he looks at us and only sees thousands, then it is bigotry that is blinding him - nothing less.

I don't know if you're suggesting the US' very existence represents cultural genocide (this will be news to all my grandmothers who taught me our heritages), but the reality is there are no discrete cultures. Everything is merely an aggregate of past entities.
Besides, the whole species is -- if we don't kill each other with ignorance -- merging into one.

Every powerful nation has committed these atrocities -- every one. The US is just the latest bully on the block. To think
otherwise is a result of selective blindness.

All that said, I've already closed posted three other threads in the major thread, so I'm closing this one as well. I've liked
a lot of your posts, so I find it especially sad to find that you dismiss my people as freely as you do, but life goes on. It
doesn't make you right and me wrong. I have faith that the world is much grayer than the one you seem to see. If Bush (and
his buddies) don't get us all killed beforehand, we can hope we'll have time to make restitution for our international misdeeds.

This is my last post to the whole major thread (I hope the other individual posting will learn the difference between threads and
major threads and not take umbrage with me posting once more). lol Feel free to have your last say, and we'll have done with it. I'm not going to change your mind and you don't seem to want to understand mine.

(I hope the other individual posting will learn the difference
between threads and major threads and not take umbrage with me
posting once more). lol"

Umbrage? If you mean me, no umbrage here, Melody.
I'll miss you posting in this thread or major thread
or mini-sub-thread, and I look forward to seeing your
future posts around these parts. I'll be disappointed
if they're not as odd as the ones here. Peace!

I've ever read in this forum!

But, most of them are too busy pleasing the moneybags and watching the polls.

I hope he does the same this Saturday, perhaps even stepping up the rhetoric a notch. The United States, as whole, DESERVES to hear this.

WAKE UP AND SMELL THE FASCISM!

WHY DO YOU HATE ETHNIC AMERICANS??? I bet you even actually READ Pinter's remarks!!! :rofl::rofl::rofl:

:hug:

:hug: Wie sind Sie, ich bin hu-wo-menschlich...mais, je suis de la Nouvelle-Orléans ;) :hug:

Excerpt from Harold Pinter speech -







http://nobelprize.org/literature/laureates/2005/pinter-lecture-e.html

.

*snerfle*

:spank::rofl::rofl::rofl::spank: