Folks, before we start bashing each other yet again

can we please remember the protocols of how events like the killing today play out?

1. The killing occurs

2. The government's bullshit story gets out immediately (but remember, comments immediately following the event cannot be controlled so some info does get out. However, it is distorted in short order to confuse the viewer)

3. Little by little facts emerge that lead to the inevitable conclusion that it was an execution. Unfortunately, those facts are digested by left wing web sites and blogs, while the Faux viewer is looking at the next shiny marble.

Do you really need examples? So please, offer your analysis, but pleas keep your minds open to what will eventually be known and in the meantime, lets keep the fighting to a minimum. We are not each other's enemies.

We don't bash each other. Trolls bash us.

NGU.

not trolls, simply conditioned to respond in a certain way. I don't blame them, but it is rather frustrating.

but c'mon, don't friends and good Dems often have differences of opinion? I have had vociferious arguments in local politics with folks who were totally allies and friends at a different point in the electoral process.

Bash happens.

but I do not follow.

Two camps have formed, the air marshall was justified vs. he wasn't. It crazy to even have an opinion right now, but my OP is based on history.

I'd expect it on a winger forum.

If you are running around the airport with a backpack strapped to your chest and threatening to blow people up the authorities should just ignore it. Liberals should always assume the authority figure doing the shooting is nothing more than a corrupt assassin. To think otherwise makes you a freeper.


:eyes:

That's what I meant.

For example: we do know he wasn't "running around the airport" when this happened.

Obviously he wasn't running around the airport. The Marshal got him before he got off the jetway. I just don't like the insinuation that if you don't believe this guy was illegally executed by some trigger happy cowboy cop then you must be a rightwing freeper type. That's all.

It's sad to see any DUer making any blanket statement without many facts. DU is better than that.

Be Cool.

Are you really telling us that Rigoberto Alpoizar was deliberately targeted, and that the killing had nothing to do with his bomb threat?

just to make this one response. You do not engage in reasoned debate. You behave like a provocateur. You typically add nothing to the conversation. Your arguments can be refuted by any mammal and probably some reptiles and as soon as I hit the "post" button, you will be sent back into the basement of my computer. Go. Away.

on edit: Just as a matter of record, I always try to read responses from Ignored on threads that I start.

"Your arguments can be refuted by any mammal and probably some reptiles"
But not by you.

"Just as a matter of record, I always try to read responses from Ignored on threads that I start."
Why?

..."What is your problem"?

Seriously. Is somebody alleging that this yobbo got deliberately targeted? If so, why?


"Alpizar's family said he suffered from bipolar disorder and had not taken his medication."

http://www.nbc6.net/news/5494156/detail.html

by "authorities." :eyes:

I agree with you, burythehatchet.

that was being said. I hate to say it but right after an incident like this one, it may be best to just watch the circus from a distance.

the craziness instead of splattering it everywhere.

"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data, Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."
-- Arthur Conan Doyle; "Sherlock Holmes"

I have yet to read or hear any evidence that would lead me to suspect that this was anything other than a tragic set of circumstances that resulted in a mentally ill man being shot because his behavior was unfortunately similar to that which the federal air marshalls are supposed to react to in just that manner.

The thing that makes me sad is the increased tolerance that a lot of us are developing for police state tactics. The constant fear-mongering in our country has created this atmosphere and great vigilance is required on our part to prevent us from sliding into a deeper spiritual hole. Its interesting to note that a lot of people who have weighed in on this issue on the side of justifying this action applaud the pre-emptive nature of the action. In my mind I can almost hear them say "we must never forget the lessons of 9/11". Well as we all know 9/11 was easily preventable but the administration engineered the circumstances to allow it to happen. The there was the horrible incident in London when a Brizilian electrician was gunned in the tube. Again, we now know that the British government tried desparately to cover up the killing through the aggressive use of misinformation.

The lesson of 9/11 to me is to no longer give the benefit of the doubt to the perpetrator. This week we learned of a German man who was picked up on the streets of Macedonia and tortured for months in the US Gulag. How much more evidence is required, I wonder, before we look in the mirror and realize that we are mortgaging our morals and our principles, for no good.

disagree with the statement that "the administration engineered the circumstances that allowed (9-11) to happen." But I recognize that there are a wide variety of ways of interpreting the facts surrounding that day.

There are likewise a wide variety of interpreting people's behaviors, a fact that comes into play in this tragic situation. The dead man's wife was familiar with the fact that he suffered from a mental illness. It sounds like most of the people who knew him were familiar with him being stable, probably due to a variety of things that include taking the proper medication, avoiding things such as alcohol, pot, or other non-prescribed substances, and a stable routine. Under those conditions, he would not appear any different than other people who do not suffer from bi-polar illness.

His wife would most likely have been familiar with his behavior when he was experiencing symptoms of his illness. The reports that she was saying he had a bi-polar illness, and was without medication, would tend to support this. It seems likely that she would recognize his symptoms that would indicate he was ill at that time. She was comfortable enough with him, even though he was apparently not taking his medication, to board an airplane with him.

For the majority of people on the plane, who would not have considered him to be any different than anyone else were he not symptomatic, probably only were aware that a husband and wife were arguing on the plane. Perhaps they had been before boarding. Those close enough may have overheard the words that passed between them. Those familar with mental illness may have had a clue the man was sick; others would have simply though it was a couple arguing about nonsense, not a particularly uncommon thing, especially in the holiday season.

The wife was likely confident that the flight would not be eventful, and that it would be no different than other times her husband experienced the symptoms of his illness. It may be that she was aware that the holiday season is particularly stressful for many people, including those with mental illnesses. Affective disorders such as his frequently have seasonal cycles. Perhaps she even had thought of ways to convince him to get back on his medication. It seems most likely he had been off it for long enough that she associated it with his symptoms.

When he apparently became agitated to the point of moving quickly on the plane, carrying a bag and reportedly making comments about having a bomb, his wife recognized it as part of his illness. She was, of course, correct.

Other passengers, especially those unfamiliar with either him and/or bi-polar disorders, likely felt a range of emotions from confusion to fear. While his wife recognized his behavior in the context of mental illness, most people would not. In part, this is because our society has not come to grip with mental illness as a fact of life.

To the federal air marshalls, his behavior fit that which they are trained to deal with in a fast and potentially deadly manner. They do not have the luxury of patience in determining if the woman saying that he was harmless and suffered from mental illness was telling the truth, or was part of a larger plot. If the reports that he reached towards his bag after being ordered not to is true, in the context of the event, they are supposed to shoot to kill.

In regard to your comments about where we have come to as a culture, I am in complete agreement. When suffering the symptoms of a serious and persistent mental illness is cause for execution without trial, it should give us all reason to pause and consider what has happened to our society. It is, of course, possible that other facts will become known that could change our views of the tragic incident; however, I do not expect any facts will become known that will lesson the horror of what happened.

and as always, I benefit from your thoughtful insights. You are truly a treasure for many of us.

seems to be in dispute. And that is the whole issue at the moment.

agents. I heard on cable this AM, that they had him isolated in 1st class an dwer questioning him and ordering him to lay down. How did two elite security service let a mentally troubled man get away?

If he was such a threat already I'd have thought they would have him pinned and not be asking him to go prone. If not such a threat and with the wife (supposedly) telling/shouting he is Bi-polar then why shoot to kill, uhmm why not tackle him when he is trying to get away?

To me with what I've heard I think the FAMs screwed up by letting him break past them (two men who are undoubtedly well trained in hand to hand combat and in good physical condition?). The mentally ill guy screwed up by being unmedicated (the causal reason for his supposedly saying he had a bomb) for which he died.

Another thing to consider is a fear of American imprisonment. The rest of the world knows that we torture and rape our political prisoners. The rest of the world knows that we like to throw people in jail so they can be anal raped by a cellmate (that is after all the punishment everyone takes such joy in knowing a criminal is going to recieve). If I was in that state of mind I know I would have ran instead of facing rape and beatings.

Now all that being said, the first lesson here is to take your meds if you have an illness. All further reasons that come to light will probably not be so innocent seeming.

I also at the moment, if this was all just a conflaguration of tragic circumstances feel horrible not just for the wife (who is probably considering killing herself at the moment), but for the FAMs if all mistakes turn out to be honest those guys will be needing a lot of love and compassion (at least I hope they do, I dont want mindless unfeeling drones armed and combat trained on aircraft anymore than terrorists).

Im keeping my mind open on this for a while and will wait and see hwo my questions are answered.

is that the air marshall is a human being as well and I think he reacted out of panic and fear because of the very nature of his job. I don't believe that people who are in law enforcement summarily execute people, I think they get scared. Does it happen? Of course. Free will and all that.

I think this air marshall will have a lot to live with when the full story comes out. I actually feel for the guy.

Just my $.02

not sufficiently trained to handle delicate situations which is not his fault. And I suspect we wil never know the details about that specific issue either because it may reflect unfavorably on DHS.

I am a trained psychologist and I had trouble sometimes with individuals in a psychotic state. There was no way he could be 'talked down' if he was that wound up.

And, the wife screaming that he was mentally ill probably just confused the air marshall further. I am sure Homeland Security tells these guys that the 'terraists' work in pairs or even bigger groups.

It is a horrible tragedy all the way around, and after reading all the threads pertaining to the situation, I can actually see some merit in a lot of what people said, even folks who were in direct opposition to each other.

Hindsight is 20/20.

oh, wait ......... :D

:hi:

My head just exploded on another thread about this topic, after reading many FAM-bashing threads :(

I love DU, but sometimes it's very painful to read under certain circumstances. Bashing US Law Enforcement is like bashing the troops. Disturbing at best.

Here was my little rant:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5543248&mesg_id=5555009

Little by little facts emerge that lead to the inevitable conclusion that it was an execution

But guess what, A PLANE SKIDDED OFF THE RUNWAY. What shooting?

http://www.wftv.com/news/5503137/detail.html