People are Rejoicing!

It is clear to me that there is a general sense of pride and glee over the killing of an unarmed, mentally ill man by Federal Air Marshals. Why are so many people so happy? IMHO, the killing was despicable, but I have yet to hear of anyone who shares my view.

but if you want to visit the "gun the guy down as long as it keeps us safe" crowd go read the thread in LBN.

are appalled by this story.

What most people don't realize is that this could be anyone. Your father, mother, brother sister. An innocent man was killed in cold blood yesterday and it is now coming out that the initial reports of what happened are not true. This is a very serious matter.

claimed to have a bomb. What's the lesson? Don't cliam to have a bomb.

.... the people I've seen interviewed who were ON THE FLIGHT didn't hear him say any such thing. You don't think the Air Marshalls would have made that up, do you?

And, now it's being said the backpack he supposedly reached into on the jetway WAS IN THE DAMN PLANE.

So far the only ones claiming that the man said he had a bomb, are the ones who shot him.

He SAID he had a bomb, he refused orders of ARMED Federal Air Marshalls and he reached into his bag. Based on their training and based on their responsibilities, they had no choice.

It's very sad and unfortunate. My ex-wife is bi-polar, so was her mother. The man with the "bomb" may not have been seated in reality at that moment, and sadly he paid the ultimate price.

about a bomb. The only people making that claim are air marshals.

to someone, anyone other then a marshal who says he said anything about a bomb.

therefore you are asking for a logical impossibility

The burden of proof is on you.

Nowhere on the various stations has anyone produced an eyewitness who claims to have heard him say that. They all say they heard the shots, or heard some commotion at the other end of the plane... I thought it was odd that, if he ran down the plane saying he had a bomb that there would be several people who would have heard it.

And that he went out with the air marshals, and his wife had told them her husband was sick. I'm starting to think there's some CYA going on... I would love to see a videotape.

and it makes me not want to travel. I have been in a situation where I had a panic attack and just had to get off the plane. Now I am going to get shot?

And there seems to be different opinions about what the man said. He might have been saying "I don't have a bomb!"

This is what the fear of terror buys you. Death.

If they are going to respond this way as "routine" (a word I heard used) then they need to rethink their protocol. How about a taser? What good does a dead terrorist do when you think there is a bomb on board?

It would require a fusing system that was grounded to earth (so to speak) through the fuse. Otherwise it wouldn't trip the fuse. And, if the current isn't sufficient as it passes through the body, it won't trigger the primer. No primer; no initiator. No initiator; no bomb.


The Professor

and if they miss and hit the bomb/backpack directly...

You stated as a fact that the bomb would detonate. I was simply informing you that there are many devices that won't detonate that way. (I have a background in ordinance. A long time ago, but that's stuff one doesn't forget.)
The Professor

but seeing how they didn't know if there was a bomb or how it was made, they would be prudent to assume the worst case and not use the tazer. That's all I'm saying.

If they don't know, then they also can't know if the person has a "dead man's" switch on the bomb, or if the bomb has a mercury level switch. So, shooting him is not an option either, because that would result in detonation as well. So, tazer or gun, they assumed the exact same risk.

If they don't know, perhaps the best course of action is patience, NOT action.

I'm not arguing the point. Just suggesting that if the situation is as unknown as it has to be for your concerns to exist, than any course of action could be the wrong one.

The Professor

to detonate the bomb. In this case, shooting would be the best bet.

Based upon your original surmise, there was no course of action that would have prevented the bomb from going off. If a tazer would do it, why not the shooting?

That's my objection. If the point was to prevent the detonation, the best course of action may have been to do nothing.

Like i said, you said, in your original thought about why the tazer couldn't be used, that if they used it, the bomb could go off. Same goes for shooting the guy. Kobiyashi Maru!
The Professor

If he was reaching to detonate a bomb and they shot him in the chest, they could stop him from detonating. A tazer, as well as being less accurate than a firearm, wouldn't necessarily prevent the person from still detonating the bomb.

All is not as it seems at first, as usual.

So much for hypotheticals.

The feds seem to have a different story.

Witnesses also said Iraq had no Weapons of Mass Destruction. The feds told us that Iraq's nukes were ready to launch in 45 minutes and proceeded to invade. Who was right? Wouldn't want that smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud, or a duffle bag loaded with C4...

Is it time to start trusting the federal government again?

the bag was in his seat. This was an unnecessary slaughter.

and I thought, there is hope for our future.

fully where this post came from.

Read some of the threads.

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

and why aren't DUers appalled at the passengers on the planes with loaded guns pointed at them?

Helloooooo

I really want to know what person, even a uni or bipolar person, would claim to have a bomb. The people who are rejoicing are the people who believe anything someone in a position of "authority" tells them that fits their world view. They're not rejoicing because a bad guy got caught but because their worldview was validated.

and said he had a bomb and acting like he was out of his mind... i would want the a.m. to stand up and do their jobs...

we have to wait till all the info is out but if he did say he had a bomb then they did what they were trainned to do and what they are on the flights to do

that I really don't believe it. Think about it. How many people in a manic phase would stand up and just declaim to the world at large that they had a bomb in their bag. IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE. Somebody thought they heard him say that - was he obsessed with bombs before he left? Did he regularly talk about bombs before that? Was it a stupid joke he thought he was making? What other words rhyme with bomb?

What if your SO just suddenly was accused of saying he/she had a bomb by a nervous passengers and got blown away? Not in that order.

I'm HIGHLY skeptical.

My ex-wife's mother used to take her and her sister around central park in NY because the ALIENS were after her - she couldn't go back to her home. There are wide ranges of bi-polar and this man probably shouldn't have gone off his medication.

bad confluence of events for everyone. Whatever the truth it's just regretful that it will be politicized. Next they're going to insist on providing your medical records before traveling. If he forgot to take his meds, did indeed hallucinate an alien bomb and declare that it was having tribbles in his bag and got blown away, then isn't he financially liable to the airlines for the disruption? They sue other people who cause security disruptions at airports. . . I just hate to see where this tragedy could end up.

it is hard to believe. I have known and worked with many people who suffer from bi-polar disorders. Quite a few got psychotic. I'm not sure what would seem suspicious about a psychotic person saying something like that. I am not aware of any information about bi-polar disorders that would indicate that there is any reason to doubt that this poor fellow would not have said that.

of bipolar disorder who is only exposed to the extremes, word on the street is, and I am here to deliver it, that bipolar symptomology is not a monolithic axial diagnosis.

Am I right? Of course I am.

;)

Seriously, we're not talking about excluding from the realm of possibility ANY behavior based on that diagnosis, but it's also misinforming to state that all bipolar people go totally bugshit crazy in their manic phase. It's all over the scale, and if you're a pro you know that.

I've heard "relief" in coworkers - that a crazy guy who mighta hadda bomb got what he deserved for yelling bomb, whether he did or didn't.

When I say something, I mean it. When I say that people could semantically confuse "relief" with "rejoicing" in a hyperbolic sense, it's because I'm smart and have wide parameters for use of language. Do not challenge me on this.

I'm quite serious Madison. I think you're fighting an unnecessary fight and there's no reason for it. Let it go.

Oh, and who started this unnecessary fight? The person that made the absurd OP, that's who. I'm done with this thread, you'll be happy to know.

And would someone who really had a bomb be trying to blow up a jetway? No. They'd be trying to blow the plane up in the air.

who want off the plane could callout something like "I don't have a bomb or anything" and reach into a bag to get ID.

Perhaps it was just unfortunate and there is no way around it. Regardless, it is tragic.

I have bipolar disorder in my family and my biggest worry is suicide, not getting shot in an airliner.

Claiming to have a bomb is not nearly as delusional as declaring one is Jesus Christ, for example. And, as much as I buy into any number of conspiracy theories regarding * and his neocon gang, I see no political upside for air marshalls randomly gunning down, without provication, an airline passenger.

unless you also said you had a bomb...

Oh, they were right, eight, right... and all of us "wimps" were wrong... until all of the evidence came out and showed we were right. And they never came back.

The SAME type of posts have been going on over this shooting. Exactly the same. That's what I suspect the OP meant by rejoicing. Saying, "It was a good shot," and making fun of mentally ill people being capped isn't too great.

I didn't see those posts, but I take your word for it because I've seen worse on here. But the OP was inferring that this view was the rampant majority view on DU.

"... because their worldview was validated."

That phrase explains a lot of attitudes and positions in controversial events. x(

I've posted on the issue and I ain't smilin' in glee. Go look it up, I've already said my two cents and I would ask you how you would feel if you were on that plane in the same split-second situation. Would you want them to wait, or have them shoot to protect the rest of you?

Sometimes the innocent die too.

I've not read the others because, quite frankly, there are more serious issues to talk about. (but those usually get sunk to the bottom in favor of more claptrap.)


And you know what? If that guy was me on that plane, I might have said that stupiud remark because I might have wanted to die. Has anybody else bothered to think of that guy's own emotions, medicated or otherwise? I was once diagnosed as bipolar solely because of mood swings; "rationality" was never an issue. I only reacted to things extremely.

Who knows? Who cares? All of this is inane distraction fodder from far more pressing issues that affect a lot more people.

And of course the killing was despicable. Do you want a list of despicable things people do? At least the guy is dead. Too many corporate execs put real people in a state where they long for death (homelessness and hunger because there aren'ty any fuckin' jobs out there!)

:argh:

We're all safer now. Shootings, arrest without trial, etc. can't happen to us, they are aimed at the terrorists.

interviews on ABC AOL and CBS......one of guys was in row 12. NONE of the people could see the guy as he had turned into the jetway and not ONE person has said that they heard him say he had a f***ing bomb! The only fear I've heard from the other passengers is the guns pointed at them from the swat teams.

As I said above..."rejoicing" is hyperbole in IMHO a poor choice for a thread title but if you don't think that there is a huge crowd here that subscribes to the "gun them down so we can be safe" crap that seems so prevasive since 9/11 think again.

and if he didn't say he had a bomb, then that would definately influence my opinion. But, the bottom line that we can all agree on is that this was a sad, unfortunate, and potentialy avoidable tragedy.

This killing was despicable.

:(

.. and will be more innocent victims of the "war on terror". This sort of stuff is going to happen more and more. Rather than try to deal with the root causes of "terror", we are going to follow in the footsteps of our "ally" in the Middle East, and have exactly the same amount of success, that is to say "none".

It's a great racket if you want to drain the Treasury in the conduct of an illegal "war" against an amorphous "enemy".

i still dont see that a shooting was warranted, necessary or needed. adn this IS a life. regardless of what type of life, mental illness or not. it is a life that was taken, and possibly, probably that life didnt have to end

It's the same mentality as those who applaud the stupid, 'shoot first and find out if someone was armed later' law in Florida.

This was just another in a long line of police killings of mentally ill persons.

Sometimes the police have no other choice, but oftentimes they do.

I don't recall hearing anywhere that this man had a gun. They claim he said he had a bomb, but I would like to know how killing him (as opposed to jumping him, or tazering him, and restraining him) would keep that bomb from going off?

"They" know darn well that this was just an instance where cops (or, an air marshal) panicked and killed a mentally ill person. They are desperately and hurriedly trying to frame this as a "victory over terrorism" in order to cover up their own crime.

Especially in light of:

1.) some of the nasty comments being made on DU about those who suffer from mental illness, and

2.) how some of the info coming out now is very different from what the "senior officials" were saying yesterday.

Just like the London Underground incident.

its as if this is were your position.

I'm waiting to hear more about the facts, but I am prepared to call this a tragedy even if the air marshall did not act negligently.

You probably think I'm rejoicing :saecasm:

are we here to attack each other or to share observations and ideas? If the OP has an observation, it is silly of any one of us here to judge the messenger. Instead of us saying I disagree, look over here, or wow, you may be right, we just step up on the soap box and judge away.

Some days we are EXACTLY like the things we are most critical of.

..but we do on this issue. People are attacking eahc other in the most vile terms.

:eyes:

:shrug:

Before the authorities in charge of the situation gave their statement on the event, the MEDIA already had this guy convicted of loading an airliner with bombs and being tied to major terrorist groups, and trying to execute another 9/11. The MEDIA was ejaculating over the killing of this man and the blowing up of his luggage, like a sick fucking parasite trying to reproduce on everything.

Who is to blame for the actual killing and the actions taken? I do not know, and I doubt that anyone will ever receive an unbiased accounting of all the facts, relevant to this incident.

Do I trust the Government to provide us with the full truth about it?

No, because Homeland Security must be placed on a pedestal, careers must be saved, and the propaganda plot must endure. The Government is unworthy of any credibility, and it has never deserved any for the last forty years.

I heard him find humor in one of his disciples saying that he would have shot the guy just for making him late.

I think EVERYONE agrees that this was tragic.


Is it just me? Or are people losing their minds today?

Law enforcement needlessly killing mentally ill is an all to common phenomena. Better training would minimize such incidents.

who the hell is rejoicing about this???

There's a difference of opinion on if it was justified,etc.. but I doubt there is one person here that is happy the man is dead.

Get a fucking grip and argue your point of view without pulling a drama queen act like this. :eyes:

May I ask.

I agree it was despicable!

This has happened because of the Bush Administration-fueled paranoia. They have made us so terrified that it's no wonder that people shoot first & ask questions later. There has to be a better way to deal with terrorism than this. I don't like what it has turned us into.

Tammy

that as far as I was concerned was 85-90% written by trolls - or at least people who are diametrically opposed to what I think.

I agree that there seem to be many who have no clue about such situations.

thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5547499

It is just as bad as the man that was shot in London trying to get on a train. It was after the recent bombings they had.

...there are plenty of sanctimonious people on the board popping off about how they are the only ones who really care about the situtation.