The Air Marshal did the wrong thing. I am not sorry for saying so.

Surely when you are a trained Air Marshal you can, if you must, shoot to take someone down rather than murder them in cold blood while their spouse watches.

Bipolar is a mental illness. Being off "meds" for someone who is bipolar is bad news. Have you ever been around someone with bipolar who is off their meds? I have. It's horrid. Frankly I find the comments like, "being bipolar doesn't give anyone the right to act like a moron" disgusting, insensitive, ignorant and wrong.

After they murdered him, they found NOTHING on him. Better police work could have kept the man alive AND determined that.

bullshit lunacy about "shoot to wound" notwithstanding.

If it turns out he made that part up about Rigoberto saying he had a bomb?

My stance on this is based solely upon what we currently know.

Witnesses have stated the man claimed to have a bomb.

The only way he's not a hero is if he did not order the man to get down and drop the backpack. If he simply shot, he's a murderer.

somehow, I do not believe this Air Marshall was a murderer.

but I saw two on CNN last night who made the claim he said he had a bomb.

One in first Class and one seated immediately behind first class.

I still think the media needs to get the names and personnel files of these two marshals. If it turns out he did say he had a bomb, then they were justified in shooting him.

As a former newspaper reporter who spent years covering law enforcement, I've seen way too many instances of cops shooting impulsively then coming up with a story to justify it.

Did you hear about the state drug agent on trial for shooting the wrong man in the back?

I knew his story sounded like BS the first time I heard it.

This guy claimed the fleeing suspect pulled a gun on him, no gun was found. Then he said the suspect pulled a knife on him. A folding knife was allegedly found in the dead suspect's pocket.

It's fairly clear the events that transpired. I think the dead suspect pulled the knife, got shot in the back, and then proceeded to put the knife back in his pocket so he won't get in trouble.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/12/07/BAG2CG45T71.DTL&hw=state+drug+agent&sn=001&sc=1000

They had a huge scandal a few years ago where the cops were shooting homeless people and mentally ill people -- who had been unarmed -- and then planting guns on the scene. It was a huge coverup that eventually landed several cops in prison.

Brazil, I believe.

him say he had a bomb, in fact, they say the opposite. That they never heard him say that and he wasn't running screaming up and down the aisle. He was trying to walk of the damn plane! In an agitated manner! Guess that justifies shooting him.

When he was interviewed by the FBI(?), he said, they kept trying to put the word 'bomb' in his mouth, but he never heard it on the plane.

This made no impact on the hosts or audience on Faux Daywatch, however. They never even commented on it. They went right ahead with a guy who said the Air Marshal should get a medal.

and he walked down the street shooting people.

He was taken alive.

This guy was getting OFF the plane -- if he had a bomb, wouldn't it have been found when he was getting ON -- and his wife was running after them saying "He's sick - he needs his meds!"

The under-trained, over-excited air marshals over reacted.

When's the last time you heard of a bomb actually making it onto a plane in this country?

so there's no guarantee if he had a bomb, they would ahve found it.

He got off the plane in Miami and was getting back ON the plane when the incident occurred.

And he never went through security again after getting off the plane in Miami.

have to do with anything? For the record, they were down there doing mission work with his wife's uncle who was there doing charity dental work. How would the air marshalls know he was coming back from South America anyway? Does coming back from "Columbia" indicate something sinister is up? Your post seems to imply that.

a bag for a bomb. In particular Colombia has no experience at all with smuggling, terrorism, etc.
:sarcasm:

If they die in the process, too bad.
Do you shoot the suspect in the hand, (pipe dream from a running position with pistol inhand) leaving the other hand free to set off the bomb?
Do you shoot the suspect in the leg leaving hands free to detonate the bomb or do you shoot to stop the suspect making it impossibloe for bomb detonation to occur?

A dead person cannot detonate a bomb or shoot a gun. A "down" person can.

to others.

A guy with a shattered knee can still do damage and officers are trained to address that point.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SHOOT TO WOUND. Never, ever is anyone trained to hit the legs or arm - you shoot for the chest.

So, you would like him to aim for a small part of the body, maybe missing, leaving the suspect free to detonate his bomb, if he had it?

Sorry, but the air marshall did his job correctly. If you think otherwise, you are deluding yourself to reality.

Should that turn out to be untrue, I'll revise my opinion. Until then, I don't see what they could have done differently.

he said that to justify their actions?

If it changes, I'll revise my opinion.

Other people say he didn't say that.

Who knows where that person was when the statement was made?

I'm sure we'll see more passenger statements in the next few days.

If they hadn't acted, and he had detonated a bomb, many people could have been killed.

and the only person who ended up dead was him.

over his chest? Doesn't that mean that they were shooting RIGHT AT THE BOMB?

Even if he really did have a bomb, that seems like an incredibly stupid thing to do.

Why would air marshals be carrying guns, anyway? Do they really wnat to shoot it out at 30,000 feet? Wouldn't tasers be just as effective and far less dangerous to the passangers they are there to protect?

There's a lot that stinks about this.

before he retired. And, you're right - he always said "Never pull a gun unless you are willing to pull the trigger. Never use it as a threat."
emdee

Is that virtually every law enforcement officer is trained to spot those who are mentally ill, trained to tell the difference between a psychotic episode and the real deal, because of just these sorts of situations. Yet either these two FAMs ignored their training and were criminally negligent, or the FAM program did not bother to train them, in which case the FAM program itself is criminally negligent. Either way, an innocent man died due to gross negligence on somebody's part.

all the time.

I'm sorry, but some times cops have no choice. They do not have a Monday morning quarterback's hindsight and must react to eliminate a threat.

Just because there are other law enforcement officials who have been grossly negligent does not excuse these two, nor mitigate the fact that they acted out of gross negligence. Hell, these two officers even had the benefit of having the man's wife right there with them, telling them that he was bi-polar, off meds, and acting out. Yet they killed him in cold blood anyway.

The cops are in the right ON ALMOST ALL CASES WHERE A MENTALLY ILL PERSON IS FATALLY WOUNDED BY A COP!!!

Just like in this case.

It's sad, but it's a truth that many times when in the depressive state, manic depressives choose suicide by cop.

You could very well be mistaken as a threat and shot.

And how in the world do you consider taking a psychotic, yet innocent man's life "right"? Law enforcment officials are trained to spot the mentally ill so that situations like this don't occur. Obviously then, the law enforcement agencies that do such training do not agree with you that this was "right", otherwise they wouldn't bother with the training.

And you are correct, many bi-polar people, in their depressed state, try to take their own life, by cop or other means. However, when a bi-polar person is acting out in the fashion that this man was, he is obviously not in a depressed state and wanting to take his life. He is manic as hell, wanting to do anything BUT take his own life, and is acting out in what is called a psychotic episode. I know this because I lived with a bi-polar parent growing up, and worked with the mentally ill. Sorry, but if they're not on their meds, they cannot control themselves. Nice to see you so willing to throw away an innocent man's life just because he is sick. Let us hope that you never have to face the same circumstances, but sadly, in this fascist state we're rapidly becoming, you probably will.

All law enforcement are not so trained, and this occurs multiple times eahc and every year.

It's a sad fact. Mental illness can get you killed, but that does not make it any less a fact.

and I see no way around this sort of thing happening short of required declaration of medical status to get aon a flight. We all know that just ain't gonna happen, so chances are this will happen again.

It's sad, but that Air Marshal was not the one who told the guy not to take his medication. The guy was an adult and was responsible for his own medication.

I said most, and given that I have a great number of law enforcement officers in my family, from various agencies, I think that I would know. I do know that other Federal law enforcement officers are given this training, and since the feds do like to spread this sort of thing around, the FAMs probably had it also.

And yes, mental illness can get you killed. That doesn't lessen the fact that these officers acted negligently, and that they overreacted.

And with your willingness to consign the mentally ill to an untimely negligent death, I'm glad you're not in charge. Sad to say, it appears that somebody with you POV is though, more's the pity.

And yes, the man was an adult, but that does not make him responsible. Remember, he was mentally ill, and mental illness is recognized as a mitigating factor in many facets of life. It is legally recognized that the mentally ill aren't responsible, and why they are assigned guardians who are to look out for the mentally ill. That is what this man's wife was doing, looking out for him to the best of her ability, informing the FAMs that said man was indeed mentally ill and off his meds. She was doing her job, but instead these two officers ignored her and shot her husband in cold blood.

Sorry, but God help us if this is the society we've become, where we can dismiss the death of an innocent man based on his mental condition.

correctly.

He could take no chances with a suspect who refused to comply with orders to drop to the ground and dump the bag!

I'm sorry, but second guessing the Air Marshal does not fly with me until you can show me the guy was attempting to comply.

And we WILL KNOW the truth. Regardless, if what we know turns out to be truth, even if there was no bomb claim, the Air Marshal acted correctly.

doesn't mean you are not a danger to others.

These officers should have realized what they were up against, and acted with more understanding and compassion. Especially since his wife was right there, telling them what was going on. Instead they shot him down in cold blood.

I fault the guy for not taking his medication, not the Air Marshal because the Air Marshal did the right thing.

what would a reasonable person do?

Was mentally ill, off his meds, and the man hadn't pulled a bomb, gun or something else out of his ass, I probably would have tackled the guy, put him in a basket hold, and escorted him off the plane.

This is why almost all officers are trained to recognize mental illness and psychotic states. It's easy if you know how.

:shrug:

With a new way to beat the system.

Have a team of suicide bombers - one acts crazy, his "wife" yells at him to calm down - voila - they must not be a threat then......

real suicide bombers don't run around yelling that they have a bomb. Kind of defeats the purpose, doncha think?

and blows himself up on the tarmac.


perhaps I'm missing the point.



Wouldn't the bomber, who to be effective must already have the bomb on board, sit quietly, wait for the plane to take off, and then calmly get up, get his bag, and blow up the plane and everyone in it? Your crazy person ruse in nonsensical.

It happens all the time.

reaching into and set it off killing dozens of people?

That's the information that's been released so far.

:eyes:

be safer. After all, what if ANY of them had a bomb that would go off, killing dozens? Best not to take any chances.

The man ran down the aisle of an airplane wearing a backpack and said he had a bomb. He then refused to stop when told to and ran toward the terminal. In the five seconds alloted to them in this instance, what "better police work" were the Air Marshals supposed to do?

NOBODY "shoots to wound". The rule is that you "shoot to stop the threat". Targeting center mass is the most sure way of doing this. It's one of the first things taught to law enforcement officers.

for the guy and his family - but if they KNEW he was bipolar AND OFF HIS MEDS - why is he flying? I am sure this was not the first time he acted in a bizarre manner off medication. Why was he flying? I think people need to take a little responsibility for their actions - I KNOW BP Disorder is a mental illness - spare me the flames - he should NOT have been on that plane

on the plane if he were off his meds. Not with me, at least!

When you're making a split decision, you don't have time to aim for an arm or a leg.

If the man said he had a bomb and he's running around with a backpack on his chest and he's not obeying the air marshalls' commands, they had no choice but to shoot him in order to protect the other people.

It doesn't matter if he was bipolar. He was being a threat and the air marshalls didn't have time to determine if he was mentally ill or not.

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And yes, I have been around someone off their meds, and it is horrible. And who knows if his meds worked, anyway? Despite what people think, there is not always a magic pill for bi-polars. It is a tragedy, and I don't understand why anyone would lack sympathy for this man and his wife, even those who think the air marshalls were right. It's still a tragedy.

is one thing, everyone should have that. But that does not preclude also acknowledging that in this situation, given what we currently know, it appears that the Marshall acted appropriately. Maybe more facts will come out later and change the situation, but it is the responsibility of the Marshall to protect the plane and the passengers. Someone claiming to have a bomb is certainly a real threat, in this day and age. Simply because the guy may be acting strangely, the Marshall cannot take a chance (after all, claiming to have a bomb on a plane and running away is acting strangely to begin with, after that, diagnosis is hard) So he did the right thing and used force to prevent a very real perceived threat to the passengers and others. and now he has to live with having killed an innocent man in the line of duty.

So there is sympathy and empathy for a lot of people here.

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You just can't take that chance.

Law enforcement officials are not trained in dealing with mental illness. It happens all over the country on a regular basis. Cops shooting mentally ill people when perhaps they could have used other methods, had they been trained in dealing with mentally ill people.

They are trained, however, to shoot to kill. I can understand that concept because they're only supposed to shoot when either their lives or someone else's life is in danger.

Having said that, my gut feeling is that the marshal or Marshall's who did the shooting overreacted. I don't think this guy ever said he had a bomb. I think he was acting crazy and his worst crime was not stopping dead in his tracks as soon as the marshals yelled at him.

What the media needs to do is get the names and personnel files of both marshals involved to see their history.

In fact, 100% of crazy bombers have mental problems. Thats WHY they are bombers.

sort of people that the bushes look for to enforce their unlawful laws. in jeb's okay corral, where you can shoot someone if you feel threatened, no questions asked, no punishment meted out, the goon who killed the passenger did just what the bushes expected him to do.
and did you notice that from wolf blitzer, to tweety matthews, to the few talking heads, that they kept repeating the shooting in miami, not much did they have to say about the moron's moronic speech yesterday? a coincidental distraction. it worked in favor of the bushes...and actually may have reinforced some of his gibberish about terrorists out to kill us here so we better kill them there.

It's the same thing most people would have done

but heard the wife screaming, I'm inclined to agree with you.

(From the CNN story)

Walt Starr's comments, although caustic, are spot on, as are those of the other poster re: wounded doesn't mean incapable of detonating a bomb.

But more to my specific point, there's stuff that was going on way in advance of the incident that lead to it.

For one, if you're a responsible spouse, you don't take someone having an unmedicated bipolar episode onto a plane without, at minimum, informing the airline.

Additionally, CNN is now reporting that at least one passenger saw/heard the Alpizars fighting before the flight, a fight which escalated after the wife got a phone call. That probably put the marshall on edge in the first place.

At that point, the airline bears some culpability for not removing the Alpizars. The pilot, who apparently saw the fight, has the option of removing anybody from any flight at any time and they often do so when passengers appear to be drunk or disruptive.

There certainly aren't any heroes here, but I also doubt there are any real villains either.

Mostly

working with the mentally ill, and most that I worked with were more likely to harm themselves than others. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, and I generally knew if someone was a potential threat ,if they were predisposed to violence, if they were delusional, paranoid and/or hallucinating. IF this man did in fact say he had a bomb, the FAM didn't have the time to sit his wife down and ask about his history. This is a very tragic story and my heart is breaking for his wife.

he, as reported, refused requests to get on the ground, and assuming he acted in a manner that would indicate he intended to detonate a bomb, then I believe the officers acted correctly and according to their training. It is tragic, but seems they would have followed a correct path of escalation of force, which if it was anything like my training, involved a "double tap center mass".

With that said, perhaps procedures in a situation like this should be reviewed. First and foremost, did this man not go through at least one screening to board the plane? Passing his carry-on through a scanning device? Did this man not pass through customs at least once? I think the likelihood of getting bomb material like this into the PASSENGER area of a plane would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible. I may be wrong, have been before, will be again. Another matter altogether would be getting bomb material into a cargo hold of one of these planes, which as I understand it, have plenty of packages/cargo that get loaded UNSCANNED and UNSEARCHED.

Olafr

And, obviously, the man had just gone through a security check point. His carry on had been scanned. Why would they assume he had a bomb? Because he said he did while his wife was screaming that he was delusional?

In hindsight, I would agree that his wife should have mentioned something to the flight crew about his condition. But how do we at this point know that she didn't? In addition, the couple was seen arguing before they got on the plane. What's the protocol here for airline employees who witnessed the argument, ie: the people at the check-in counter? Are they required to alert the flight crew/air marshals that someone is acting irrationally? If not, why not?

I agree that the evidence has not been fully revealed to make a judgment beyond speculation. I DO know that any evidence that incriminates the air marshals and their protocols will be suppressed and a major effort will be made to demonize the dead guy. That's just a reality in bush's USA.

off of planes? Seems it is much easier to get stuff on a plane than I thought...truly encouraging.

:sarcasm:

Olafr

for protocol to have been followed in this.

The guy is acting erratically and refuses to comply with an order to drop the bag and drop to the floor.

That's all that is needed. No claim to have a bomb is necessary. Everything else is more than eneough for the Air Marshal to be forced to fire.

is dropped to the floor?

and a bomber instead of jumping up and acting crazy announcing to everyone an intent to blow everyone to hell, simply sits in their seat, looks out the window at the sky for awhile, then pushes a button?

You gotta get the stuff before they get onboard with it is my point.

I would imagine in most cases, if they are already on the plane with a bomb...you are already fucked.

Olafr

That is all it takes for an US officer to execute a man?

Truly scary!

Refusal to comply with a lawful order to stop and get on the floor can result in your death under those circumstances.

Once the officer perceives you as a threat and the officer draws the gun and tells you to drop - then if you make a threatening move - the officer can fire. Almost all countries go by that escalation of force doctrine. If you are a serious enough threat, the officer can fire without a challenge.

as it always is with a tragedy.

Should they even have been flying?

Couldn't his wife have let someone know his condition?

Could the flight crew have investigated the spousal disagreement prior?

Could the wife have taken away baggage from him before the incident? no bag, no bomb, no dead.

I truly feel for both the man and his wife. It seems several poor choices, or at least several compounding unlucky circumstances led to this. He has lost his life. She has lost her husband, and will have to live with the trauma of that for the rest of her life.

The marshals shot and killed a man that was not a threat They have to live with that as well, but they appear to have not had much choice in the matter.

Let us also not forget that their were many people on this flight who had to experience this, some probably children. Do you think it was a picnic for them? Put yourself in their shoes. It is terrible for everyone involved, but it is much more difficult to find fault.

Olafr

The marshal did the only thing he could at the time with the knowledge he had. It is unfortunate this man died but it is his actions and arguably the negligence of his spouse that are at fault, not the air marshal.

- Six -

At least, that's what it says on my monitor. :shrug:

Though my Dad is signed up here and he currently shows two posts if you do a search on him, but his post count only shows one. :shrug: Some sort of bug?

Look. I am not a supporter of vicious police abuses. I think that there are some really bad cops and law enforcement out there. Rodney King, Amadou Diallo and Abner Louima (sp?) come to mind as do many others.

This, however, is not one of those situations. I am not happy that they killed the man, but I don't blame them as I would most have likely reacted with the same deadly force if I was in their shoes.

People claim that their training should, somehow, have led them to a different conclusion. I disagree. If a bomb, gun or other weapon (chemical,perhaps) was discovered on his person, you all would be praising their decision to kill.

As far as I can see this was not predicated upon anything other than the man's erratic and potentially dangerous behavior. This was not racially motivated or police brutality.

This is a horrible event and to sit back and seek to blame law enforcement is a bit disengenuous.

not enough time to get a medical history of the guy and the marshall could not know that he was lying about the bomb. he did what he had to do. it is a tragdey but one that could not have been avoided by the marshall.

one report i heard said that the marshall had to aim high so as not to hit other passengers while the victim plowed thru passengers who were getting on the plane. apparently he said he had a bomb to get people to move out of his way as he went from the back of the plane to the front door and out onto the jetway. i am sure all was chaos. from all i have heard, the marshall should be commended.

ellen fl

It certainly appears as if there were enough elements of erratic behavior and talk of bombs to give the LEO sufficient reason to be very suspicious, and if, at that point, the man was not responsive to direct orders, I could see how this was a justified shooting.

but I await more info to make a final judgment.

There not being a bomb is not enough reason to say the LEO did the wrong thing.
That the guy was mentally ill is not enough reason to say the LEO did the wrong thing.

The two above issues make the killing a tragedy.

You just get to sit around and armchair judge it. Great just great, it wasn't your's or 100's of other people's life on the line, wasn't that easy for you to decide...

and if my sister were at the airport and acted as she did here on my back porch, she would have been shot. I would hate it - it would be horrible - but it would be the only decision that any police officer could make in a second's notice.
emdee

But all reports indicate that the man was ordered of the plane and he followed the instructions. He was shot in the gang way, meaning they had more than a seconds notice.

So far, the only one's who have claimed he had a bomb, are government officials.

What I find truly disturbing is, that if someone gets sick while sitting on the runway and wants to get off, for whatever reason, that person can be killed, and it's ok, because that's what the manual says?

that people other than officials said he claimed to have a bomb.

You said, "What I find truly disturbing is, that if someone gets sick while sitting on the runway and wants to get off, for whatever reason, that person can be killed, and it's ok, because that's what the manual says?" I've seen no one say or imply this - it is a total misrepresentation of the opinions I've read. Please direct me to comments such as this.

As far as whether it was a "second's" notice or five seconds - how much more clear could you think in five vs one? How many seconds do you think there were between "I have a bomb" and a needed reaction? What if there were hesitation and he did have a bomb? You cannot yell "Fire" in a theatre nor can you yell "bomb" at the airport - even if you are sick. I daresay we cannot tattoo them with "bi-polar" on their foreheads.

emdee

granted the authority to use deadly force must indeed be held accountible for their actions with full 20/20 hindsight.

He had no bomb. He was off the plane, and it appears from the photo I saw, on the tarmac, when he was shot. Those are the facts that we know. Given those facts I find his lethal shooting questionable.

I know it turns out that he didn't have a bomb, but the air marshall didn't know that. If you shoot a man in the leg then the man can still detonate the bomb. I'm always for letting someone live if it's possible, but I don't know whether it was possible or not in this situation.

I agree with you about bipolar disorder. I've known a few people with it, but this one guy in particular could really go nuts if he didn't take his medication, so I can understand the reasoning behind why this man had a problem. But I can also understand that the Air Marshall's first priority was keeping everyone else on the plane safe.

As far as I know, no passengers have reported that he was screaming anything about a bomb, or that he was in fact screaming at all. The eyewitness accounts I heard this morning reported that he 'appeared agitated' as he ran out of the airplane followed by his wife, who was
indeed screaming that he needed his meds. The two eyewitness accounts I heard told exactly the same story and neither mentioned that he was screaming "bomb". All the 'he was screaming bomb' reports appear to have come from the offices of the FAM, or were just unattributed in the various media reports.

So perhaps he never said anything about a bomb, he certainly did not have a bomb, and he was just having a panic attack about flying, for which he is now dead. I find it hard to justify that.

but you're wrong that no passengers said anything about a bomb. If you look near the top of this thread a poster said he saw two passengers say on CNN that they heard the man say he had a bomb. Now, if it turned out that the man never said that, I would most certainly change my opinion, but based on what we know right now, the Air Marshall was in the right.

Here's the post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=5547499&mesg_id=5547800

Walt Starr's two witnesses against your two witnesses. :shrug:

But again, if it turned out the man never actually said that, then fine. I'll change my opinion.

I feel a much stronger bond with people who have succeeded in seeing through their fears, and vice versa.

"Bipolar is a mental illness. Being off "meds" for someone who is bipolar is bad news. Have you ever been around someone with bipolar who is off their meds? I have. It's horrid."

That's very true. I have personal (extended family) experience with bipolar disorder. I've seen them off their meds.

However, this line of reasoning doesn't work. Why does being off meds mean you're less of a potential threat? I'd almost argue that it makes you more of one, in some cases.

I don't want Air Marshalls relaxing their standards because the traveling companion of a potential threat says that person is "off his meds." This would be a good M.O. for people wanting to do harm, much the same way a staged argument is a good distraction so someone can get off a plane and leave a bag behind....

in this country.

supremely F-ed up? We have lost our minds...collectively as it seems insanity, chaos, and destruction prevail. Evil it is.

eom

that would be an indication that he might really be capable of packing a bomb in his backpack. I don't think the marshalls have time to asses the info any further...he says he has a bomb - his wife is screaming "he is bipolar and off his meds" - he reaches for the backpack...

As tragic as the situation is, I am glad to have marshalls on these planes and that they are trained to act in such a manner. My husband flies a lot. If hubby had been on that plane and the guy had a bomb that he was about to push the button on, I would want the marshalls to act just as they did - for the safety of the rest of the passengers.

At the moment I just have deep reservations about where we are going as a society, as evidenced by this and other similar incidents, and lots of questions about the specifics of this particular incident. I find the rush to praise of this shooting here on du discouraging, but not surprising.

that would have been a better decision than being trigger happy. This is what you get with * leading the country.

...and how you would've handled things differently. Thanks.

I wouldn't think he had a bomb. I'd think he's off his meds and is nuts. And if he is in that severe of a state, how can anyone expect someone in his emotional and mental position to reason and respond coherently when his initial behavior isn't even coherent? I just don't think some people on here have had any experience with mental illness. And to say that terrorists are the same shade of crazy as this guy thus making him just as much of a threat is beyond ignorant and disgusting.

It is apparent the whole terra schtick has affected plenty of people on here.

That the same people who said that the shooting of the Brazilian guy was justifed are saying the same thing now?