BOTH SIDES Are Jumping To Conclusions About Rigoberto Alpizar Too Quickly

I'm guilty of it too. I posted a thread last night having already concluded that though my heart sunk for him the marshals acted appropriately. I realize now it is too early to draw that conclusion and doing so was irresponsible. I also believe now, however, that those condemning the marshals this early are equally irresponsible.

I just read as much as I could about it, and it occurred to me the facts are quite fuzzy. That is what made me realize I could no longer with confidence proclaim that they were 100% appropriate in their actions. But the facts are also NOT YET there to in any way proclaim that they weren't appropriate.

I don't expect all of you to agree, but this is one DU'er who thinks the ONLY responsible position right now is to wait until we get more facts before we so forcefully defend our position on the subject. The Marshals may have acted exactly as they should have, or they may have embellished and committed homicide. The only fact right now is that we do not know which at this time.

will ever be brought to light.

Why should people charged with crimes be cut more slack then we give officers or victims? The facts will eventually come out and then we will know. Until then its a tragedy for everyone involved.

I've also stated that should those reports change, I'll reexamine my opinions.

I don't think it's irresponsible to discuss the issues...

concern that there was a lot of discussion that seemed to come from a FIRM point of view, which at this point is probably a bit premature. As you've stated, if the reports change you will re-examine. That would exclude you and other posts of that nature from being in the Firm point of view category.

But those that are 100% locked down already in their opinion should probably take a breath and be a bit more open-minded while more comes to light.

And of course, the rule of to each their own always applies anyway. :hi:

...and there's simply not enough information out to do that responsibly yet.

You and I were on the same page last night and most of today. Now I am starting to pull back from my original thoughts based on some new info.

Currently I find myself exactly where you are. Waiting for more facts and on the fence.

What we say has no effect on the investigation.

Who will speak as loudly for the poor sunovabich they killed (FIVE gun shots?!), his tragic wife (I cannot even begin to fathom how this poor woman feels), and a bunch of terrified passengers? (I lay you odds the authorities told the passengers to shut the fuck up.)

regardless of whether or not the killing was justified in this particular case, i think air marshalls and other security personnel need to get significant training on dealing with mentally ill people, those with paranoia and delusions in particular.

if nothing else, this case highlights the need to address these people in security scenarios.

And I also agree :)

i still want more info too. but even then for me it isnt about blame on the law. this is more how i see the argument from a post this morning that i am concerned about

what i have seen over last handful of years, is cops/soldiers readily go to the extreme. take down and out. with more and more people. seems to be consistant in military and civil police environment. this brings a fear, to the weak trigger finger. it makes me more wary. and watchful. i do not trust the people i should be able to trust.

i dont have to blame the soldiers, for the environment that was created for them. and i dont with the cops. i still am wary of all of them. i was just thinking about my flight to akumal, mexico in march. i am already not comfortable in the authority those i dont trust has over me, my body and my family.

Bear with me. When I was 18-19 I lived in my car through the winters of 93 and 94. I used to get harrassed by cops every single night, and they even went so far as to tow my car one night though I kept pleading that they are towing my house. Regardless of how bad the harrassment was every day, it got reallllly bad one night. I had all my clothes and possessions I owned all in my car, and would sleep in the back seat. I loved to play pool, and would keep my pool cue in a soft pool cue case on my dashboard as I slept. One night at about 2 a.m., I was awoken abruptly by the door being flung open and me getting dragged out of the car. Next thing I knew my head was being pounded backwards into the car while an officer yelled at the top of his lungs "what the fuck is that shotgun doing on your dashboard!". Groggy as hell, I responded "huh? what shotgun" while my head was still being slammed backwards agressively into the car. Again "what the fuck is that shotgun doing on your dashboard!". Still Groggy, confused, and in pain I uttered softly "it's my pool cue". Again, "what the fuck is that shotgun doing on your dashboard!". Head still slamming, and finally starting to gain control, I yelled as loud as I could "IT'S A FUCKING POOL CUE MOTHER FUCKER!!!" To that, he stopped hitting me, walked over to it, opened it up and found a harmless pool cue, said nothing, walked away and drove off.

I understand what you are saying about authority. This happened well before 9-11. But I also know that was just one cop; a bad cop. I just don't know yet if the marshals acted appropriately. I'm hoping they did the best they could. But I also must admit that they most definitely could've over-reacted, killed an innocent man, and are now covering it up. Hopefully we will know one way or the other.

for your story. 6 months after 9/11 we went to our small airport in amarillo texas. i was 41, husband, and two boys 5 and 7. off to florida. 6:30 in the morning going thru security. i was the one pulled out to be wanded. i dont like that. i dont think there is any reason for me to hold arms out like i am a criminal, when i have done nothing wrong. i dont like walking into an environment where i no longer have control. and we dont in an airport. she asked how i was and i told her this is a bunch of crap. not anger (didnt have enough coffee yet for anger), not anything, i am complying. she stopped. a cop came over to stand by me. a head dude came and got an inch from my face and just stood there. time passed then i asked him what he wanted. he said you have a problem. yes, i think this is a bunch of crap. we stood there, him in my face. finally i say are you done and he moves. as i am walking away i realize, duh, i was suppose to be intimidated. now they have my two little boys behind a table, on a bench. their eyes are huge. my husband standing there. i sit next to the littlest and say why is the cop here. the cop says i am protecting this woman from you.

from me i say, me..... sweet nice me that has never hurt anyone. hugest of smile, giggling with littlest. comforting him. how dare she say that about these kids mom. how dare she say that in front of my children.

i told the woman, you treat all of us like animals, we just may become that.

it was wrong.

the mans intent was to intimidate. and that is wrong. this isnt an america i am used to where we as a society embrace our males intimidating the females. told father, brothers, all you spend your life protecting me, only to allow a man with authority to intimidate. not who we are

now, i wouldnt want my husband to do anything. but that isnt who my males are

i knew way back then, this is where we were going. and nothing has made me feel any better about where our society is headed.

i dont know either. but i do know a wife yelling he has a disorder. he isnt dangerous..... has to stop things for just a moment. and it didnt. but you are right, i dont know. it may have been justified. and never would i want to judge before the information is out.

like with London.

of any opinions from DU as I've been w/o a computer for a week.
I may be a cynic, but the fact that the man's wife followed him yelling he was off his meds and was bipolar gave me pause and doubts. If the marshall felt compelled to shoot him, why not once in the arm, leg, etc., not 5 times? By the time the luggage was being blown up, I felt that was done more for media spin.
I await to hear about the lawsuits that will probably ensue.

into consideration, witness the evolving women suicide bombers, if they could have shot him in the leg or to incapacitate him they probably would have. It might not have been possible with other passengers around. They are trained to shoot for the largest body mass with the least amount of opportunity to shoot an innocent bystander.

Training might take distraction into consideration, exhaustion on the part of the marshals might have had something to do with it. I have no doubt they thought they were doing the right thing, but did they?

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N08359263.htm

W.House: Marshals acted consistent with training

WASHINGTON, Dec 8 (Reuters) - U.S. air marshals who shot and killed an American Airlines <AMR.N> passenger acted "consistent with their training" and an investigation will determine if any changes are needed in operating procedures, the White House said on Thursday.

Florida resident Rigoberto Alpizar, 44, was killed on Wednesday in Miami as he ran from an aircraft. Officials said he claimed to have a bomb in his backpack. Witnesses said the man might have been mentally ill.

"I don't think anyone wants to see it come to a situation like this, but these marshals appear to have acted in a way that is consistent with the extensive training that they have received," said White House spokesman Scott McClellan.

He said the Department of Homeland Security was working with the FBI and police officials in Miami to determine what happened.

Standard operating proceedure, I'm afraid.