Something must be wrong with me

I'm ambivalent about Tookie. I've read some of the many threads on this issue and as a Black man, I guess I should be getting all worked up about this. But I'm not. I wasn't even going to weigh in on this issue until someone posted this article:

http://www.sfbayview.com/120705/strangefruit120705.shtml


I didn't read much of the thread but I did read the article and quite frankly, I feel this writer has her head up her ass. Listen this guy did some really bad things in his life. He also redeemed himself in some way by some of the work that he's done. Should he be granted clemency? Maybe...I don't know. He's probably saved quite a few lives But if my family was blown away by a shotgun, I don't know if all of those saved lives would make a bit of difference to me.

I guess I'd be more engaged in this debate if our people took this opportunity to reflect on the pathologies in our communities that enabled Tookie to create the very monstrosity that he is now trying to combat. I don't know much about the circumstances of what he actually in jail for. I know it's for alleged murders committed during the course of a robbery. I do know the Crips, and subsequently, the Bloods represented the face of an era that was absolutely devastating to Black America. I know that Tookie is working to reverse that but the fact remains that the circumstances that allow the Crips to still maintain a viable foothold in our community still exist and I wish that all of the people who are championing Tookie's cause would also shine a spotlight on that as well.

And above all else, to champion his cause by saying that there is some ugly racism in America doesn't cut it for me. I don't remember too many Gang white members killing scores of Black people in drive-bys or dealing drugs in our communities. You could argue the point that there were elements of the White community that exploited these circumstances: But to wrap up a defense of Tookie in a "WHITE RACIST AMERICA" rant without ever having a serious discussion about some of our failings as a community not only demeans the person's point but it also allows us to shy away from the very difficult discussions that we need to have as a community in order to fix the very issues that Tookie is working to correct. Hell, she didn't even acknowledge that....well the Crips killed an awful lot of Black men. But I guess the way to advance this argument to say it's all Whitey's fault.

While I have some ambivalence about Tookie, I have absolutely none about the state of Black America. I believe we are probably facing some of the most perilous circumstances as Black Americans in this country that we have faced in some time. We are only several months removed from watching thousands of Black people abandoned during a national disaster. Just the other day some Katrina victims went to Washington and told their stories and they were pretty much told they were liars. So we get shit on in NOLA and then we go to Washington to complain about it and we get our faces rubbed in it. I wish Jamie Foxx would hold some rallies and news conferences about that. Or about why gangs have such a foothold in our community in the first place.

Like I said, something may be wrong with me. There usually is. Flame away if you need to. But I think there are things happening to Black America right now that we should more deeply concerned right now.


edited for spelling:

I'm pretty opinionated on the Tookie debate and it runs the gamit of redemtion, saving lives, deterrance and same crimes, lesser sentences.

However, the rest is spot on to what I am thinking and I am so not black. I feel the same.

That's what makes me say, give him clemencey and let him serve the rest of his life in prison, where he can reflect on his actions and continue to help fight against gang violence.

But why is it that Tookie seems to represent absolute "solution" to the gang problem to this writer? That if he is excuted, Balck America will have lost it's only way to deal with our gang problem?

I think the death penalty is IMMORAL.

I only see people claiming that he is "part" of the solution. When once he was a part of the problem, he now is part of the solution to that problem.

Give him life in prison. He is no longer a danger to society, but a benefit as has been documented by many people.

The rally is a principled rally against the Death Penalty, and yes, the man won a Nobel prize for his redeeming efforts. Why fry this man? It's not a black or white issue for me or others I have talked to. But I'm sure there are those that see it as being one and open to their perspective.

My stance relates to the idea that the DEATH Penalty is not practical and has been proven to be flawed in the past.

Just my take. I do however take issue with those that seem determined to squelch efforts by some here top save the man from the Death Penalty. Those Pro-Death, have made their points but they all ring very hollow.


You, however are not one that seems gun-Ho on the Death Penalty and I appreciate that.

While Tookie does bring the the air of credibility to any anti-gang message, is he the only one who can fashion solutions.

I really was reluctant to post on this topic because it has a potential to suck you into a million different whirpools of thought.

I understand the death penalty argument and I respect the opinions of people on both sides of the fence.

I just feel that as I see overlooked in all of this are some very uncomfortable things that the Black community has to come to terms with and I just see Jamie Foxx on CNN saying "Don't kill him on my birthday". The writer of this article didn't present a well thought out argument for sparing this man's life. She basically said America is racist and that's why Tookie is going to be executed. I don't know what race she is but if she's Black, she totally dimisses any responsilibilty the Black community has in gang proliferation.

That's what I find troubling

I think the writer was trying to say more than she said. It was a poorly written article that came across as a rant against White America and its racisms. The author was very angry, bitter, and desperate. I got the impression she was being deliberately harsh to shock people, to jolt them. But there was a lot between the lines that was more reasonable, I thought. She didn't take the time to add the balance that would have made her anger more focused. For instance, the jab that America was built on killing non-white people was very true, but the way she used it was gratuitous. It was just an attack that she didn't tie in well enough with her main point. I think anyone already thinking along those lines would understand what she meant, but others would just see it as an attack on Whites and our history. If she had tied it more closely, or made the connection she saw more explicit, or maybe just left it out, her article would have been stronger. I didn't disagree with her, but I thought it was too much like hurling insults hoping to make someone respond.

Just my opinion. It wasn't well written. She had some good points, but they were lost, or at least unfocused.

In what, Chemistry?

Clemency bid for Nobel-nominated killer
Crips gang leader's books urge others not to emulate him
<http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/11/09/BAG92FL9BF1.DTL>

QUOTES:

***Williams has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize each year since 2000 and has also been nominated for the Nobel Prize for literature. This has drawn praise from his supporters and derision from his opponents, who say it merely illustrates that anyone can be nominated. Those who have nominated Williams include a member of the Swiss Parliament and a Bay Area philosophy professor.

***Attached to the petition were some of the thousands of letters and e-mails written to Williams by youths, social workers and others, saying he changed their lives, and copies of the nine books for children he has written from San Quentin Prison's Death Row in the last decade.

I had several Crip friends who specifically mentioned Tookie as One of the reasons they had turned away from the life, they felt if he had changed that much, then they could too, Before they ended up in jail for life. Death doesn't scare them, they faced it every day. The thought of life in prison does.

Some friends and I were discussing the state of the "young, black man" (cause they were) and your post echoes a lot of their feelings.

I don't know in life he's actuallly making a difference.

Go look up gang related deaths from this year alone - Then tell us how Tookies death will be a cautionary tale??

His life would be a cautionary tale.

And even if you reform after that, it'll be too late.

I don't think it's going to win over a lot of people - no one ever thinks they're the one who will get caught, any more than they think they're the one who will get shot.

But I don't know what good he's doing sitting on death row denying his crimes anyway.

Do you doubt their info? Also, the Death Penalty has existed for some time, and that still hasn't stopped murders. I really think in the moment people kill they are temporarily or permanently insane, disconnected from reality. You can't reason with people in that instant. So how is the death penalty thwarting people from killing each other? I say it doesn't if it does, it's rare.

The Death Penalty in my mind just doesn't have merit. Tookie has earned a Nobel Prize for his redeeming efforts. That tells me, his life is worth more than some meritless process to thwart future violence. Justice is living life behind bars where one can reflect on one's own faults or sins.

#2, I don't suspect his cautionary tale would be a significant deterrant (though his celebrity might make him more of one than some anonymous guy).

#3, I've heard he's TRYING to make a difference - but I don't know that he HAS.

Is this the reason for fear? I sense it is, but I willing to listen more.

I will say this though, I do believe he is worth more to society alive, than dead. He sure as hell won't be going anywhere, and besides, death let's him off the hook.

You have made some valid points.

Please understand that I didn't start this thread as a "pro-death penalty thread".

I am anti-death penalty but if I was in the position of the families of some of Tookies victims, I don't know how I would fee. (I know that's a f**ked up wishy-washy answer but that's how I feel :shrug:)

What's just as disturbing to me is that the writer of this article wrapped up her argument for clemency for Tookie in this racist America meme. And that killing Tookie is tantamount to executing all Black men and that doesn't sit right with me.

I think that whether you are pro-clemency or anti-clemency, there are still some other, equally important issues that should be talked about in light of Tookies situation that aren't being discussed.

Furthermore to lay everything at the feet of white racism allows us to avoid having to confront some uncomfortable facts about our own communities and that is the very last thing we need.

exemptions for celebrity.

Some people say he is or will do so much good -- what I want is to see it quantified.

Is the price of his continued maintenance worth the purported benefit? Tell me what it is and I can offer an opinion.

I agree with you, these gangs rip out the heart of the community, it is almost impossible
to get a handle on their activiities. It's like living on a daily basis with a large
hungry alligator in your yard, you don't know when he will attack. In Baltimore, it's stealing cars, learning to drive by smashing thru yards, bringing the heavy duty drugs in,
selling drugs and turf war shootings. I live in a stable middle class neighborhood, but the
punks come in here to do their thing because they know they can intimidate us.

And at what point do we, the Black Community, begin to accept and come to terms with our responsibility for some of these circumstances. That's what turned me off about this article. She lays all of the balme for problems in the Black America at the feet of White Racism and that just ain't going to cut it anymore.

Has the crime gone down, and so will it go down after Tookie is snuffed?

But, I can tell you that when I have had jury duty, that the cold blooded killers who killed
11 people in broad daylight, go on trial, they are treated like celebrities. The sheriff deputies bow and scrape to them. Why, because they are afraid of them, tell me that they
go to prison and the same things doesn't happen. Oh, and as a Juror I have seen them stare at the face of every juror to memorize it. They continue to do their deals inside
and run their operations fron inside. Don't lecture me on theory, I know what I see with
my own eyes.

Making people an example to thwart certain behavior does not work. If it did, people wouldn't kill people at all. See that with your own eyes is all I'm saying.

And you have not answered my question.

With a lethal injection, I am saying that those individuals who have been responsible for
multiple deaths and have killed w/o remorse will be permanently removed from our society.
There will be no new victims from these individuals. I am also in favor of death for
those guilty of treason against the United States. Flame me if you will, this is what I
believe. Should there be mercy for the 15 year old kid who loses it and shoots someone
during a robbery, yes. But, I think there are certain areas where a death penalty should
be applied. One of the key areas is admission of guilt and showing of remorse.

That's still not an answer to my question.

I feel it is necessary, however for the reason I stated above. Where I have lived there have been 3 murders. One was a nun, one was a family man who had a steady job and one
was a teenager. Only 1 of these murders was ever solved. So that means that the killers
of the other two walk my street every day, park their cars on my block or in the next block
or may be hanging out in the alley behind my house. I only know that our neighborhood lost
3 good people who died senselessly before their time. Do I want justice, yes, do I see that
the police have a patrol area the size of Nebraska and that the chance of them being in
my neighborhood is about equivalent to me hitting the lottery. (Unless something goes down!)

Hi Bronx, I am also African American and also have avoided the Tookie wars, partly out of the same sense of ambivalence you feel. I also felt that some of those threads were opportunities for our white brothers and sisters to simply vent their pre-existing feelings about race, crime and punishment, without really thinking deeply about this particular case.

Unlike the "save Tookie" crowd, I don't seem him as a heroic figure at all, nor a martyr of any kind. Unlike the "fry Tookie" crowd, I also don't see him as uniquely monstrous.

The death penalty is a very strange sanction in American criminal law. Generally the penalty for murder, even multiple murder, in the US is life in prison. The death penalty is theoretically and legally reserved for the "worst of the worse," not for your routine killer or even routine multiple killer. It is applied, however, very inconsistently. Because Americans -- white and black -- are more likely to see a young black man as monstrous, the worst of the worse, young black men get the death sentence dispropotionately. Because of that, it simply cannot be applied the way it is supposed to be applied.

Tookie was a very bad guy when he committed his crimes, but I frankly don't think even then he was the worst of the worse. The very fact that he was in a gang, a criminal enterprise, and committed murder during a robbery means that his motives, however bad, were kind of banal. He did not, for example, torture, rape and then slowly kill and eat his victim -- that's the kind of killing that the death penalty is supposed to be reserved for.

Moreover, he has tried to do something to redeem himself. Like you, I doubt that he could ever redeem himself, especially in the eyes of the victims' families.

But it does certainly mean that even if he was once the worst of the worse, he isn't that now, and the death penalty is not appopriate in his case.

One other overlooked factor: A family member of one of the victims has actually said he could accept clemency if Tookie admitted his guilt and if California could guarantee he would spend the rest of his life in prison, and waive all appeals on the underlying confiction. I believe Tookie has never admitted guilt, which is either because of lack of remorse, lack of acceptance of responsiblity or more likely purely for legal reasons -- namely he still had legal appeals pending.

My feeling is that he should be granted clemency and that he should also admit guilt and waive appeals.

I agree about the disparity in applying the death sentence is alarming. I actually think the sentenicing disparities in the drug laws are just as evil.

But just as there will be those whites who will take this opportunity to give voice to some obvious prejudices there will be some of our folk who will make this the Back issue du jour and take this opportunity to shove all of our problems under the rug of white racism. That's not a viable option. Not after Katrina.

I mean what is it about our communities that we tolerated a situation in which Black men were routinely killing each other? And is it totally Tookies responsibility to correct that.

That's the impression I got from this writer

Personally I think the guy should spend the rest of his life in jail.

However, I don't think that Mumia, Tookie or anyone else deserves the death sentence. I also think that Tookie has taken a long, hard look at his life and has used his time in jail to help turn kids away from the life of gangs from several of the anti-gang kids books he has published.

I was always on the fence about the death penalty til I read (and then saw in the movie) that the father of Matthew Shepard said. Matthew Shepard was the young man beaten senselessly and tied to a fence in the outskirts of Laramie Wyoming by some gay bashers, one of is 2 assaultants plead guilty to spare his life but the other one took it to a jury case. He was also found guilty and they were going to try for the death penalty, but it was Matthew Shepard's father who spoke against using the death penalty as a form of punishment against the one man who senselessly beat his son to death.

And in a local note, when the Supreme Court ruled that minors couldn't be executed I found out that my local state representative lost her granddaugther to one of the minors that was on death row. Hazel Plant did demand justice - she said that killing the boy who killed her granddaughter would not solve anything except have another grandmother out there mourning just like her.

how many scheduled to die are mentally ill? mentally retarded? They haven't written books like Tookie, most likely many are indigent and illiterate and do not have the ability to demonstrate any rehabilitation they may have undergone.

I'm not pushing the pity angle here, its the idea that the well-known and more articulate people that get the attention in our culture.

And I agree with you about the racism issues around this, it doesn't cut it with me either

my only gripe with it is this line: He's probably saved quite a few lives But if my family was blown away by a shotgun, I don't know if all of those saved lives would make a bit of difference to me. justice is supposed to be blind, victims of a crime, no matter how heinous, should not have much of a say in the punishment of the criminal. People being people, will usually tend to want to see the people who committed crimes against them to be treated more harshly than someone who committed the same crime against a randomly chosen anonymous citizen. That perfectly normal, healthy response to being victimized is why we don't allow victims on the juries of the accused, or to decide on their punishment.

Of course if your family was killed you would not want clemency for Williams, but will him being killed help either?


edited to fix italics error

I said if I was in that situation, I wouldn't know how I would feel.


I'm not trying to argue a case for or against. I just don't know how I would feel.

I hope that's an honest answer

that's my whole point, the fact that we may, or may not, emotionally, want Tookie Williams to burn in the deepest depths of Hell, should really have no bearing on his punishment. Victims don't decide punishment, or clemency, for a very good reason.

sorry if you felt that was critical of you, it wasn't intended to be.

To spend so much time in commentary on this one man's fate seems rather extreme considering the enormous problems faced by Black Americans in general. New Orleans, Louisiana is just the tip of the iceberg. Jackson Mississippi 3 hours to the north shares many of the same problems. Shreveport, Birmingham, Memphis and dozens of other southern cities are much the same. So much effort spent fixated on a single individual while millions are forgotten seems unrealistic.

As a Black man you speak with a moral authority that I cannot hope to match. But I agree with your post 's content and conclusions.

that it seems to say that maybe we shouldn't be spendning as much time on it is a very, very dicey thing to say. But what you say is true.

I was livid when I read that account of the appearance of the Katrina victims before congress. To have those people come to Congress and be told that they are lying or that their grasp of the events that occurred didn't ring true was an absolute outrage.

And yet that gets very little attention from our Black celebrities.

is twofold. One, did Tookie get a fair trial? And two, do the majority of problems in the black community come from without or within?

On point one, I really don't know enough about the case, but the disparity between black and white convictions, imprisonment and executions is too great for me to trust this conviction. Too many people wanted this man to be guilty. The prosecutor eliminated jury prospects based on race, to the point where none of a jury of Tookie's peers looked like him, or more importantly, shared his cultural experiences. I've had cops tell me, point blank, that they didn't worry about sending innocent people to jail, because the people they arrest are guilty of something, somewhere. I can easily see this man being convicted by a tainted jury on flimsy evidence by a judge who really hoped he'd be convicted. But again, I don't know the specifics of the case, or the reliability of the evidence. It seems to me, though, that in the case of the death penalty, the evidence should be so absolutely clear that the person's closest loved ones would nod and say "Yeah, he's guilty." If the evidence were that strong, there wouldn't be a question here.

On point two, I reject any suggestion that says that the problems in Black America are mostly the fault of Black Americans. I know too much of our history. Black Americans since slavery have been legally segregated in the workplace, in schools, and in living areas. Black American lives have been ended for over a century at the whims of White Americans, from lynchings to "unsolved" gang murders to crimes where White communities rallied to protect the white murderers even when everyone knew their identities, and yes, to cases where clearly innocent Black Americans were executed to satisfy White bloodlust over a crime. Black Americans have been forced into the worst jobs, the worst living places, the worst conditions of poverty. They have been ignored and rejected at times, like Katrina, when they most needed assistance to help. They have been given few economic advantages other than illegal trades where white people could come into a neighborhood to buy illegal goods and services, because cops didn't go to those neighborhoods except to beat up Black Americans. Black Americans for over a century were forced to do legal business primarily in their own neighborhoods, amongst people who were not able to make as much money or be as rich as White Americans. They were forced, in other words, to get money only in places where there was less money.

It's true that many of these legal conditions no longer exist, and it's true that society is changing, so that there is less discrimination against individuals than in past decades. A black man who works very hard and gains an education and can adapt to a different culture can "make it out of" the ghetto or the projects. And of course, not all Black Americans are born in the ghetto or the projects. There are increasing numbers of Black Americans born into comfortable families with comfortable futures. But the fact remains that large numbers of Black Americans, far larger than the percentage of White Americans, are stuck in a climate with no economic base (from a century of not being allowed to make it, as well as a current job climate that still favors and promotes Whites inequitably), with token schools based on models that work in other communities but not in theirs, with law enforcement more likely to view everyone as a suspect rather than a victim, with a government that literally would not waste money or vacation time or a good seat at a restaurant to save their lives. You all know the list, I don't really have to go on.

The good side of America is that anyone regardless of skin color or religion or ethnic background CAN achieve great things, however they define great things. The caveat is that White Americans are helped a lot more to achieve these things, are hindered a lot less, and are just a lot more likely to make it, regardless of skills. A Black American has to be greater than a White American to succeed equally. Which means the odds are still stacked against Black Americans.

White America really doesn't care about the lives of Black Americans. We are horrified when we see visible proof of inequity, as after Katrina. We do all we can to assure ourselves it isn't really our fault. Bill Cosby helps--a black man who tells us White Americans what we want to hear, that it's really the fault of black people. We can shake our heads sadly, say "Well, we tried," and go back to hiring our white co-workers, maybe treating the one or two Black Americans who have managed to make it into out business world a little nicer, hoping, with genuine sincerity, that we have tried in our own little ways to help in that way.

WHite America isn't bad, we're just too easily distracted into giving up. And Black America doesn't all fit into the general summery I gave above. But the numbers and percentages are enough that Black Americans are the majority of prisoners even though white people are arrested more often, that White and Black Americans use drugs in equal percentages but that 80% of people in prisons for drug use are black. Etc.

I don't know how all this relates to Tookie Williams. He was a violent man in a world where the odds were stacked against his success, and where many of the paths to the kind of success White America respects were closed, or at least heavily mined. He was the type of ambitious, sharp man who would have been brilliant in the business world, or maybe in politics, but he took a road that was easier for him to take, using his leadership and organizational skills and intense ambition in violent, bad ways. Maybe Tookie would have turned out the same even if he had all the same advantages White Americans have. I don't know. I really don't know. The problems are easier to figure out than the solutions.

But I reject the idea, even though it's not really the idea the OP stated, that the problems in Black America are problems created by Black Americans, and I reject the idea that Black Americans are the ones who should be responsible for fixing the problems in Black America. They don't have the acquired wealth base to fix most of the problems, they don't have the reigns of government, they don't have the ability. It's good to lecture young kids that they can all succeed if they work hard and do the right things and catch a few lucky breaks. It's true, they can. The odds are better that they will succeed if they are white, but they can succeed. They just have to be above average. The problem is, not everyone can be above average, and we need to eliminate the inequities that stack the odds against the averages.

That includes creating a more fair justice system, one that doesn't see Black Americans as suspects, as more violent, less reachable or reformable. One that doesn't see crimes committed by Black Americans as more severe than White crimes. And it includes a lot of other changes, as well. Mostly it includes making an honest effort. As we see now, with the concern over Katrina fading, that honest effort is not in the works, and who knows what it will take shock Americans into bringing it about. Maybe it will just take a great leader. Who can tell?

I hope Schwarzeneggar saves Tookie Williams. I really don't have much emotional concern for Williams, since I haven't followed this case too closely. But I just think any recognition of the problem, or any symbolic gesture that supports a person trying to redeem himself from horrible wrongs, is the right message. And I think this case, in many ways, is about Black and White. Maybe not explicitly. But it is. And I'd like to see the gesture made on the other side for a change. I think America can afford that gesture. And it needs it. We all need it. There has to be hope somewhere.

You bring up some very good points. I'm going to print this out and chew on it.

But I disagree about what it will take to solve Black America's problems. We have to solve our own problems because no one else is going to. I really believe that after NOLA. I mean who's going to do it. That's why I've always felt the talk about reparations was like masturbation. Never going to happen. Never. Ever. So why not put the time and energy we spend coalescing around and discussing that issue into working on building a better educational system?

My intention wasn't to say that all of the problems in Black America was caused by our own actions. I hope my OP didn't convey that. But I just had a visceral reaction to the article written by this person. It seemed to absolutely absolve our community of any responsibility for some of the things that happen in it and lay all of our problems at the feet of white american racism. I'm sorry but if you're running a crack gang in the South Bronx and as a consequence of your actions, Innocent people are being killed in shoot-outs or you're increasing the drug dependency in your neighborhood thereby increasing all of the other social ills that are prevalent there, has the Black or Hispanic population no responsibility to confront that? To say that that is wrong and that if you continue to engage in these types of behaviors, we won't tolerate it?

Listen there was a period when Black youth were killing each other for the looks that someone gave them. A lot of people didn't like a lot of what Bill Cosby had to say but hey a lot of what he said rang true. My problem with that is that it's easy to go public before the world and say the stuff he said and not then followup with solutions.

Thanks

I am personally opposed to the death penalty and would welcome its abolition. I also believe, as you do(?), that this is the wrong guy to make a stand over. His 'children's series' has sold a grand total of less than 400 copies, so it's not like he is really making any difference. He is just a vicious thug that got busted and doesn't want to pay the price for his heinous acts, so he got some dumb-ass celebrities to take up his cause, instead of an innocent, though unknown, convict on death row ala Gov. George Ryan after a group of law students made an investigation. I lived through the Bloods/Crips decade and there is nothing redeeming about them at all, nor where they 'victims' of their environment, the economy, whitey, or whatever crap they try to use to mitigate their actions. They slaughtered their own neighbors more often than each other, and did more to destroy their communities that the cops ever could. Hell he even tried to exploit the celebrity status they achieved through their thuggery to set up franchise operations in other cities around the country. How many innocent black kids were gunned down in the early days for carrying the wrong color of bandanna in the wrong neighborhood?
The death penalty is wrong and should be abolished, but if we are going to have it, this is exactly who it's for.

I have been flamed on a previous thread because I had the nerve to state that I didn't know enough about the case to make an honest, sound argument.(and I'm not going to sit here for a day reading everything I would need to, it just doesn't matter that much to me) I am against the death penalty anyway but apparently that doesn't matter in this debate :eyes: What happens to this guy has no bearing on me whatsoever. I can understand both sides of the issue. You have pro-tookie people saying he didn't get a fair trial, he may be innocent, the prosecutor was biased, blah, blah. Uh the guy is co-founder of the Crips. You want to tell me again how "innocent" he is. :eyes: Then you have the fry-tookie folks who think there is no rehabilitation for him. Uh, he is working to keep kids from making the same mistakes he did. There are two sides and both have sound arguments. I am done with the "tookie" debate, let the chips fall where they may.

You have a great writing style and bring up some thoughtful points. I too have mixed feelings about the Tookie issue. I am opposed to the death penalty except for in the most extreme cases, and yet, I agree there are more pressing issues for the Black community than Tookie.

I'm against the death penalty, so I'm against it here. But this does seem to have become something of a "celebrity cause" based on his political associations, the state he's in (California), and his obvious intelligence & articulance speaking to audiences. I'm a little more worried about the borderline-retarded prisoners sitting forgotten in some Mississippi jail because they can't give an interesting interview.

thing that had been bugging me- just an observation. a lot of people are now upset some sort of exemption or special treatment would be made for this man because of his current celebrity, the nobel prize angle, the actors speaking out, etc. well, you know if he had any of that when the trial went on he wouldn't be sittig where he is now, would he? we all know if he was white, middle class or higher there's be nothing to talk about here, because he would not be on death row.
It galls me that people are acting like this guy has all the advantages, is gaming the system, when in reality the system gamed him. you can put all the responsibilty you want on the black community for the violence, fine, but for the workings of the justice system, for the reality of who is on death row and why, well that blame lies elsewhere. I don't believe in the death penalty for a lot of reasons, but even if i did, the way it is applied in the country mocks the very idea of justice, and it is a racial issue.
Bx-Girl

Are we really THAT fucking bloodthirsty as a civilization that we equate the bloodlust of the close families members of crime victims with our societal ideal of justice?

We've really come a long way since the Book of Exodus, haven't we? :eyes:

WTF are you talking about?

Debate Transcript

SHAW: For the next 90 minutes we will be questioning the candidates following a format designed and agreed to by representatives of the two campaigns. However, there are no restrictions on the questions that my colleagues and I can ask this evening, and the candidates have no prior knowledge of our questions. By agreement between the candidates, the first question goes to Gov. Dukakis. You have two minutes to respond. Governor, if Kitty Dukakis were raped and murdered, would you favor an irrevocable death penalty for the killer?