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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 06:14 PM
Original message
And Then There Was Tookie
Commentary: And Then There Was Tookie
By MARC SAPIR


A small but vocal minority twists logic into a pretzel in its clamor for the death of Tookie Williams on Dec. 12. In contrast, the opposition to the execution stands upon a hierarchy of values and logic that digs deep into the positive side of America and repudiates the murderous side of our history. At the abolitionist base are folks, many of them religious, who believe that taking life, except in self-defense, is egregiously abhorrent. Because this view underpins the declared moral principles of civilization, when a cop kills someone who turns out to not have a weapon, the police plea is often that the officer thought the suspect was armed. That becomes the only acceptable public justification.

Beyond religious values opposing the death penalty, stand those who believe that killing by the State can only create or worsen a culture of violence, for the act of execution suggests that murder in circumstances other than self-defense can have a clear and useful social purpose. Which godlike figures get to determine those approved circumstances? Of course, it’s the politicians whom the public largely despises and mistrusts. Go figure. Included among death penalty opponents are people who recognize, as Michael Moore pointed out in Bowling for Columbine, that the murder rate in the U.S. is 10-200 times that in the many nations that have outlawed the death penalty. What? Executions preventing murder? The facts don’t jibe.

Up in the third tier of the opposition stand folks like Democratic Governor Warner of Virginia and former Republican Governor Ryan of Illinois...

Currently at the pinnacle of this pyramid is the Tookie Williams story....

In order to twist the retributive justice theme into some logical framework one writer argued that Tookie has been faking his transformation. Try to write a book and see what kind of effort that takes. It isn’t hard for me to appreciate the social value of a man who has published 9 books read by thousands of young people, hundreds of whom, as a result, then shunned gangs and violence. The movement to end the gang violence throughout California owes much to Tookie Williams. Folks who would negate that fact and not want him to be around to continue to help us reduce violence among youth pretend that the world divides easily into us—the God-fearing saved—and them—the condemned, like Tookie. But that thinking, often based upon puritanical teachings, doesn’t fit with their Bible either. In the origin myth God could have killed Satan, but whomever wrote the story knew that without having Satan around to define evil there would be no way to contrast what is righteous. Satan was cast down to Hell and Earth (In the current storyline San Quentin is a good stand in for Hell).

Without Tookie, the gang war-lord responsible for much violence and conflict, there is no Tookie whose reconciliation theme proves to youth that we are all capable of being positive socially useful beings. It doesn’t really matter if Tookie Williams has been “reformed” in some abstract world of the self-righteous. His work stands for itself, and for all of us. Arnold: Killing Stan Williams would be, like invading Iraq, another act of collective self destruction for our nation and culture. Collectively we get what we work for, so we’d better save this man’s life if we intend to end gang violence.


~ Marc Sapir is an East Bay physician, writer and co-convenor of the April, 2005 UC Berkeley Teach-In on Torture. ~

http://www.berkeleydaily.org/text/article.cfm?issue=12-09-05&storyID=22930


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Parche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. Tookie
I dont get all of the "Save Tookie" feelings
He murdered 4people,he didnt care about them
Why should anyone care about him?

He gets what he deserves, and it should have been years ago.

The victims and their families have gone through enough
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Czolgosz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Does justice require that we sink to a criminal's level? If the criminal
showed no mercy, should we respond by showing no mercy? If so, what if the criminal tortured the victim, shouldn't we then torture the criminal by the same logic? No, we should be better than the person we are condemning. If the criminal showed sexual perversity in the crime, should we show sexual perversity in the punishment? Of course not. Is justice served when we lower ourselves to that which we despise?
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Now that makes sense!
Edited on Fri Dec-09-05 07:08 PM by FrustratedDemInNC
You have made a powerful statement - I couldn't agree more.

There have also been too many innocent people executed - I'm not willing to take another chance.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. First off here are the consequences for execution
Edited on Fri Dec-09-05 07:10 PM by nadinbrzezinski
many police officers will DIE, if he is executed, the gangs, who he has no control over, have said such. So are you going to go to THOSE FUNERALS?

Second, yes he killed four people, but his actions have probably saved up wards of a thousand already....

Third, his actions have actually made headway in the war on drugs.

I guess none of these FACTS matter to people like you.

By the way, after the execution, once a police officer buys it, I dare you to attend that funeral and tell the family, well he died because the gangs had to have a revenge over a man that could have been given clemency and spent his life in jail... something he accepted a long time ago. But I guess justice was done, and now that you bury your husband or wife, find comfort in the fact that Tooki is dead.
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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
39. so why would the gangs that he is fighting
take action if he is executed?
Makes me wonder about his reformation even more
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okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
75. uh, you really don't believe any of those statements do you. man
people have called some of my facts stupid, but those you've listed have got to take the cake.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
2. Tookie will be a martyr if the killing goes ahead
And the states remoreseless killing puts its own moral standing lower than that of Mr. Williams. Why not let him continue to rot in jail and write books? It's the price he has paid and continues to pay for his earlier crimes, and he's stepped up to the plate and hit a home run over and over with his work on curbing gang violence. Why not let him continue?

So I ask the supporters of the death penalty, what benefit is there to a state killing of a repentant soul, and please do address the issue of the martyr you would be making.


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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Prove to us he has repented.
Or would you take that chance? Personally.

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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. I'll take that chance, sure, no problem
He'll still be in a maximum security prison like he has been for decades. What's your real issue here? Do you just like to see people fry?

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Czolgosz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Many people believe he repented; some do not believe this. Should a life
hang in the balance depending on who believes his repentance is genuine and who believes it is not? It is not as if anyone is proposing to let him free (in which case we would be relying on the sincerity of his repentance); we're only proposing that we keep him in jail (where almost all accounts agree that he is currently doing more good than harm, but that's really not the main point). Our system of capital punishment is too flawed, too biased, and too final to be trusted to answer such questions with certainty.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Who said anything about turning him loose?
Edited on Fri Dec-09-05 07:10 PM by cornermouse
He could continue to try to undo some of the harm that he did while serving life in prison. I see nothing wrong with that.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. This is the crux of the disinfo campaign
The proponents of the death penalty are insinuating that he'll be released if clemency is granted. They're using propaganda techniques to ensure that the state kills a human being. Nasty, insidious people.
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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #12
44. The idea of this "save tookie"
is to get him clemency, have this tried in the court of public opinion, then retried, in the hopes that he is found not guilty
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #44
66. this "the idea" is your merely parroting my expressing my personal
opinion in reply to being directly asked a personal opinion by another poster.

i, of course, should not have voiced it. damned if i do with you all, damned if i don't. my problem, no one else's.


all to say there is no "the idea," and no one is going to take my little personal opinion to any further steps.

more shock tactics of your games.




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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
23. Now Tookie, say "Sorry, Amerika I am soooo sorry"

I have heard so many little kids say, "I'm sorry" and they don't mean it in the least.

So if Tookie said "Sorry" tomorrow would those that want him "Fried" say,"Ok, Tookie, now that I know you are sorry, I will not make you go to your death."

HA

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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. I can hear it now... "He wasn't sincere." "He didn't mean it."
"He just said it to save his own skin." "HE DESERVES TO BE PUNISHED, HE DESERVES TO DIE!!!"

... just as they have been saying about his redemption. It seems that no amount of evidence, no amount of proof will satisfy them. Only Stan's blood will satisfy them.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
okieinpain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #34
76. some people probably do want blood, me I believe in justice. he
took, now he must give. It's the only way to give justice to those he has killed.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
50. I think, if he didn't shoot those four people
then THAT should be the centerpiece of the arguments against putting him to death- he's innocent!

But if he DID kill those four people- in cold blood- you're damn right he ought to own up to it.

I don't want him 'fried'- actually, I'm opposed to the death penalty- but I don't like the intellectual inconsistency and dishonesty I see with some of his supporters. Is he innocent, or not? And if he's not, why can't he take responsibility for what he did... the four lives he brutally ended?

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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
28. Take what chance?
He will have a life without parole. What chance are we taking in letting him live?
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bosspepper1 Donating Member (36 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #3
74. Not me....
and if we let go every killer that "repents" and pens a kids book, we open a whole new can of nasty worms...
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. I would also ask: What benefit is there to the state killing anyone?
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Well, that's the bigger picture, but this thread was about Tookie
And, of course, there is not a whit of advantage to anyone in state sponsored killing, other than to the companies that make money off each one and the people who earn paychecks doing it.

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Czolgosz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. You only say there is no "advantage to anyone in state sponsored killing"
only because you did not live in Texas while Bush was governor. He sent over 100 to their deaths, and if you doubt he used that bloody record to gain more than a whit of political advantage, that's only because you weren't here to see him do it.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Well, you're wrong, but in a good way
You can't prove that his killing record swung a simgle voter who wasn't going to vote for him anyway. It's not a fact that state killing of prisoners gains more votes. In fact, at best, you might make the claim that it solidifies his base voters, but hell, they were going to vote for him anyway.
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Czolgosz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. Cool. Usually, I'm wrong in a bad way. I think you may underestimate the
bloodlust of some Texas voters (and as you may gather from some of the posts in this forum over the past week, that bloodlust is not limited to Republicans).
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
37. Yes, and w/my question, I was addressing that bigger picture.
Whether or not a person has repented, the there is no benefit (other than what you stated) in state sponsored killing.

Stan has repented, yet those that want him dead will never believe that.
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Parche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. martyr
He wont be a martyr, just someone getting justice he deserves

Its not stooping to their level, it is justice for what he has done

Its a cop out, just like peer pressure, along with gangs.
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Talk to some black people and then get back to me
They're getting ready for street riots here in So Cal because the black community sees him as a hero. Kill him and he'll be a martyr.

Obviously not to you, though.

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Parche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. martyr
Why would they see him as hero, killing 4people


I really dont see him as a hero, I see him as what he is, a murderer

Did people riot in the street when Ted Bundy was executed?
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Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Apparently you fail to understand
I give up. And you didn't talk to a black person, that's obvious.

:shrug:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Yuo have no clue what you talk abuot
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
27. He may not be a Martyr in your community

but he sure would be one in the Urban areas of this country.

He is now a hero for turning his life around and making gang kids take another path.

He will be a Martyr if the great and mighty righteous Arnold, the moral values man, puts him to death.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #27
42. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
31. I'm Black and live in Los Angeles



Trust me, he is now a hero and will be a Martyr on Dec. 14th if all goes your way.

Take it to the bank!
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
4. The cycle will never end!
5 Reasons To Oppose The Death Penalty

1 The death penalty is racist.

2 The death penalty punishes the poor.

3 The death penalty condemns the innocent to die.

4 The death penalty is not a deterent to violent crime.

5 The death penalty is "cruel and unusual punishment."

* * * * *

The United States is one of a handful of countries which still executes people.

There are currently more than 3,500 people on death row -- more than at any time in U.S. history.

Since 1976, more than 580 people have been executed in the United States. Over 50% of those have been killed since 1992.

More than three-quarters of all executions since 1976 took place in Southern states. The reality is that lynching still exists -- it's just legal now.

Texas Gov. George Bush has personally signed death warrants for 100 executions and counting.

President Clinton's 1994 crime bill added 58 more crimes that are punishable by death. And his "Anti-Terrorism" bill limits the number of federal appeals for death row prisoners to just one within one year of conviction.

Both parties have created a "get tough" climate which can only mean more executions. It's time to take a stand against this barbaric practice.

What follows are five reasons why you should oppose the death penalty and how you can get involved in the fight to end it.

http://www.nodeathpenalty.org/fiveRs.html
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
7. Wife of Robbery Victim Calls for Support of Williams Peace Initiatives
December 9, 2005
Wife of Robbery Victim Calls for Support of Stanley Tookie Williams Peace Initiatives

Linda Owens, the widow of Albert Owens, who was slain during a convenience store robbery, issued a statement today in support of Stanley Tookie Williams’ efforts to bring an end to gang violence and his call for peace between gangs.

In a statement sent to attorneys for Williams for public release, Ms. Owens said: "I, Linda Owens want to build upon Mr. Williams' peace initiative. I invite Mr. Williams to join me in sending a message to all communities that we should all unite in peace. This position of peace would honor my husband's memory and Mr. Williams work."

<snip>

Bruce S, Gordon, NAACP President and CEO, said, “Linda Owens’ statement “ is a message of hope. I praise and thank Mrs. Owens for sharing her thoughts. We all can learn from her example."

http://www.naacp.org/news/2005/2005-12-09.html
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #7
68. ***** KICK ******
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-11-05 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #68
73. Kick for Mrs. Owens


Even if all of the families said that they can't have their family member back so why must we enforce the DP, it would not matter for some.

Their purpose is to prove that the State is all powerful and can do anything it chooses.

GW is in love with that scenerio.

We are playing right into his ever loving bully hands with the DP.















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sidwill Donating Member (975 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
15. The state has missed its chance to make
Tookie's death a deterent to other crime.

Instead the years have turned Tookie into a positive force in our society killing him now would serve no purpose whatsoever.
It would be a simple waste of a productive life.

Instead let him continue to pay for his crimes by doing his community service behind bars for the balance of his life.

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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
19. Keeping people in prison for life is MUCH cheaper than killing them.
That's the final argument against people who are not swayed by emotional arguments, social justice arguments, or crime statistics as to why we should abolish the death penalty.




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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Really? I did not know that one.


It doesn't seem to sway the Bully Crowd.

I don't believe it is anyway about money saved, it is about a bully mentality that refuses to get into the 21st Century. IMO

I really would like a link to that if you have one. Thanks
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. This is what I found on Google
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #33
67. excellent link ,thanks for sharing it with us nt


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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
22. Blah, blah, blah.
More nonsense that ignores the facts. Again, If Tookie wants to end the violence why doesn't he give up the information on the Crips? Why won't he reveal the workings of the gang and their methods of operation? Oh, that's right, because he is a man of "principle". His personal "code of honor" will not allow him to help solve murders, break up the drug rings and bring the gang structure to it's knees. Such a big help he is. This whole thing is nothing more than a fraud and a charade. He'll get what he deserves and the world will be better for it.

It's also not a small but vocal minority that wants justice for William's victims. Every poll and survey shows an overwhelming support for his execution. Even kids know the right thing to do here judging by one poster's story of interviewing her students on the matter and all of them refusing to spare him.

It's quite simple, Tookie is an unrepentant, mass murdering scumbag who does not deserve clemency or the support of the good people working for it. He and his lawyers are playing you guys like a grand piano, exploiting your naiveté, good nature and sympathy in order to save his worthless skin. He is no more genuine or sincere than George W. Bush.
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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
47. What...NO...
How dare you expect him to actually try and destroy the gangs, and turn criminals over

I can't beleive that you suggested such a redeemed man do such a thing!!!
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
24. if a society executes a member
everyone in that society has a hand in that execution. that is the crux of my opposition to the death penalty. i cannot say what i would do if someone close to me was the victim of a heinous crime. but i can say that i would not expect everyone else to carry out the justice that would be my responsibility alone - the murder of the perpetrator.
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mondo joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
32. How can you grant clemency for a crime the convict says he never
committed to begin with?

Is he guilty or not? If he's not guilty, how can you advocate life in prison?
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
35. this is an excellent article, Sapphire Blue! thank you so much! i think i
will include a snip from it in the subject line of my next email to the governor - as soon as i post this!

thank you for this important perspective!


peace and solidarity!
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Very Cool
Excellent!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
38. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Y'know...that should be its own thread.
It's an important visual reminder of who Tookie really is and it won't be seen by enough buried in this post.
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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. by all means
be my guest, I do not think I have the clout in this forum to pull it off
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. You don't need any "clout"...this is a good post.
As long as you don't mind some flames (it's a volatile subject) I don't see any problem with somebody of your post count posting it.

:hi:
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
41. He put 4 people to death himself, the death penalty
is what he deserves.
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. Do you believe that every convicted murderer deserves the DP?
What about all those convicted murderers not sentenced to death? Why didn't every last one of them get the DP, if the DP is what is deserved for a murder conviction?

Why isn't everyone who demands Stan's death demanding the same for all convicted murderers?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
AirmensMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. Is it really necessary to keep posting this picture?
Enough, already!
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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. is it really neccesary
to keeping hearing how tookie is a hero?
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AirmensMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Perhaps not ...
You can have your opinion on the DP, Tookie, whatever. But why subject us to the same gruesome photo over and over again? Would you want it posted if she were your loved one? Show some respect for her and people reading this thread. If you can't make your point by posting it once, you sure won't make it by posting it multiple times.
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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. well, it is sad indeed, I admit
but the fact of the matter is that everytime that he is touted as a hero, it sickens me more than the photo does
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AirmensMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. That is no excuse for you to exploit the victim
and show such blatant disregard for anyone reading this thread.
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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Why not they are exploiting the victims and more
I know...two wrongs don't make a right and all...But at the same time, should we not post pictures of our dead soldiers to highlight their plight? or is that OK?
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AirmensMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. WHY NOT????
Are you fucking crazy? If MY kids end up being killed in this goddamn war, don't you DARE suggest posting their pictures! We don't need pictures of dead people to make a point! It is nothing but exploitation. You must get a big thrill from this -- I noticed you started another thread with more pictures. Can't you make a point without being so disrespectful?
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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. I am not about to apologize
What is disrespectful is the claims that he is a hero, when he is an unreptent thug.
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AirmensMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Well, for the record ...
I don't think he's a hero. But I don't believe in killing people. Answering violence with more violence solves NOTHING. Does that mean I should have to look at those pictures just because YOU think I need to see them? Fuck that!
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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #46
54. Speaking of racial disparity
Per the media (note qualifier) the prior person to be put t death in CA was white and he killed three people. However, no one can recall any uproar, though the usual protestors were present outside the prision.


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KC_25 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. the last 10 of 12 executions in Cali
were white men, and the next one after tookie is a white man
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
59. PUT A WARNING, FOR GOD's SAKE.
I'm not replying to the offender, as I'd have to see that post again.

I'm VERY UPSET.
I avoided the "Graphic Content" one, because of the (assumed) inclusion of photos.
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AirmensMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. I agree, WinkyDink.
We shouldn't have to see the photos without warning. But he insists on posting them all over the place. I'm upset, too. :(
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. thank you for expressing your reaction to the photos, AirmensMom. eom
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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-05 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #59
64. The offending post has appparently been taken care of.
In the future, please alert the mods. (I have that poster on 'ignore', so was unable to see the content or alert the mods on the offensive post. I apologize for your having to view whatever it was.)
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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
69. K & R... No one can prove that another is redeemed...
I don't know if Williams' redemption is sincere; only he knows. For you me & cRummy this is a "known unknown."

Since we can only conjecture about the state of his conscience -- why not err on the side of caution? There's little to lose if he's still evil at heart; and much more to gain if he's genuinely transformed.

:kick:
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
70. which countries in the world...
have the death penalty as part of their system of justice?

surely these countries would be a model of progressive thought and peaceful societies.

i would be interested to see such a list and compare ourselves with these other civilized and free societies. after all, the test of a society is how it treats its criminals.

i for one am firmly anti-dp. maybe i am barbaric?

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Sapphire Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. Death Sentences and Executions in 2004
Death Sentences and Executions in 2004

During 2004, at least 3,797 people were executed in 25 countries. At least 7,395 people were sentenced to death in 64 countries. These figures include only cases known to Amnesty International; the true figures were certainly higher.

Executions are known to have been carried out in the following countries in 2004:

AFGHANISTAN, BANGLADESH, BELARUS, CHINA, EGYPT, INDIA, INDONESIA, IRAN, JAPAN, JORDAN, KOREA (NORTH), KUWAIT, LEBANON, PAKISTAN, SAUDI ARABIA, SINGAPORE, SOMALIA, SUDAN, SYRIA, TAIWAN, TAJIKISTAN, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, UZBEKISTAN, VIET NAM, YEMEN

Death sentences are known to have been imposed in the following countries and territories in 2004:

AFGHANISTAN, ALGERIA, BAHAMAS, BANGLADESH, BARBADOS, BELARUS, BELIZE, BRUNEI DARUSSALAM, BURUNDI, CAMEROON, CHAD, CHINA, CONGO (Democratic Republic), EGYPT, EQUATORIAL GUINEA, ERITREA, ETHIOPIA, GUATEMALA, GUYANA, INDIA, INDONESIA, IRAN, IRAQ, JAMAICA, JAPAN, JORDAN, KENYA, KOREA (NORTH), KOREA (SOUTH), KUWAIT, KYRGYZSTAN, LAOS, LEBANON, LIBYA, MALAYSIA, MOROCCO, NIGERIA, OMAN, PAKISTAN, PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, PAPUA NEW GUINEA, PHILIPPINES, QATAR, RWANDA, SAUDI ARABIA, SENEGAL, SIERRA LEONE, SINGAPORE, SOMALIA, SRI LANKA, SUDAN, SYRIA, TAIWAN, TAJIKISTAN, TANZANIA, THAILAND, TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO, UGANDA, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, UZBEKISTAN, VIET NAM, YEMEN, ZIMBABWE

As in previous years, the vast majority of executions worldwide were carried out in a tiny handful of countries. In 2004, 97 per cent of all known executions took place in China, Iran, Viet Nam and the USA. In China, limited and incomplete records available to Amnesty International at the end of the year indicated that at least 3,400 people were executed, but the true figure was believed to be much higher. In March 2004 a delegate at the National People's Congress said that "nearly 10,000" people are executed per year in China. Iran executed at least 159 people, and Viet Nam at least 64. There were 59 executions in the USA, down from 65 in 2003.

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-sentences-eng



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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-05 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #70
72. I'm glad you asked, and Welcome to the DU - k_jerome...
:hi:

CLICK HERE for the answer to your question (and post if you like).

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