The Death penalty is about Vengeance, Not Justice.

Romans 12:19


Don't seek revenge yourselves, beloved, but give place to God's wrath. For it is written, "Vengeance belongs to me; I will repay, says the Lord." (WEB)

Avenge not yourselves, beloved, but give place unto the wrath of God : for it is written, Vengeance belongeth unto me; I will recompense, saith the Lord. (ASV)

Do not give punishment for wrongs done to you, dear brothers, but give way to the wrath of God; for it is said in the holy Writings, Punishment is mine, I will give reward, says the Lord. (BBE)

not avenging yourselves, beloved, but give place to wrath; for it is written, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. (DBY)

Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. (KJV)

Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place to wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. (WBS)

Do not be revengeful, my dear friends, but give way before anger; for it is written, "'Revenge belongs to Me: I will pay back,' says the Lord." (WEY)

not avenging yourselves, beloved, but give place to the wrath, for it hath been written, 'Vengeance 'is' Mine, (YLT)

http://bible.cc/romans/12-19.htm

for a crime. It is unfortunate we have not moved beyond that, but the world is moving in the right direction and eventually the U.S. will too.

Torture is the evil instrument of revenge and domination.

I am not against the death penalty in principle.. I don't trust the STATE to do it however.
If you kill kill quickly and get no joy in the others death.

I have no problem with all pedophiles,torturers,genocidal maniacs and rapists being killed and wiped off this Earth.

Sometimes a person's own actions can forfeit their right to live because some acts are so heinous the person who does it has lost the trust of humankind ,He cannot be trusted with his freedom and existence among other people anymore..You can do things to lose trust of humankind. No one is entitled to be trusted once they violate trust.Some criminals cannot be trusted.

It isn't vengeance it is because of broken trust.

Torture abuse and sadism is all about vengeance..And your god calls himself a god of vengance.Christianity is a very vengeful religion.Read the bible look at the book of Joshua.

The Old Testament is what Christianity is supposed to have moved beyond.

And he came with a sword.The whole book of revalations is about blood,and God's vengance on Mankind..That's the New Testament.

I view Revelations as an encrypted message passed between secret compatriots of an oppressed organization in a society that was dominated by the Romans. Nero is the beast.

I choose to take the positive, gentle, progressive teachings of Jesus as the essential message of Christianity.

It says something about THEIR character, or lack of it.

I don't trust people who do not question these things easily. Being a particular religion or role does not translate into being a moral person ever.The Bible is a very immoral book to me. Not a character building tool at all.I myself don't Identify with standard Christianity.I am more of a Gnostic .I can't just pretty up something like god commanded Genocide.Metaphor or not.The creator of this world,and the process of this world (evolution or "intelligent" design are both bloody brutal and traumatizing.) and the way all of it is,to me, is evil.

I don't like most religions.Most gods are evil immoral inventions from confused peoples acting out traumas this existence causes on a cosmic scale.

If you cannot trust someone to refrain himself from hurting you,you cannot trust him enough to let him be free. So if he refuses to be confined or contained,and tried to manipulate or escape because he desires to abuse,than you have to kill him to stop him because you cannot trust him.Death penalty to me is about resolving broken trust.

If you can use religion to make your life more positive and to keep from negative things than so be it. It's only when you're taking it like the fundamentalist's and where it's harmful to other people that it's dangerous.
Sometimes people can use religion to make their life more worth living and to be passionate about something and about helping other people etc. I know lots of really great Christian's. There are bad apples everywhere. If you see something as evil and negative in your life than find something that is positive for you.

Jesus was supposed to have done that. "Love thy neighbor as thy self" and "turn the other cheek." The "eye for an eye" is a very old thing. Christian's aren't supposed to be that way and it shows how hypocritical some people can be.

oops

You said,


"I have no problem with all pedophiles,torturers,genocidal maniacs and rapists being killed and wiped off this Earth."

Are you saying you support the executions not only of murderers but also of sex offenders?

Ron

Who are repeat offenders, the assholes who seek out young kids to harm who are not even sexually mature(I know people will bring up adults and teens that is not what I am saying here),I am talking about sadistic pedophiles who seek babies, two year olds, four year olds seven year olds and rape them.
Pedophiles cannot be cured same thing with serial rapists.They are NOT to be trusted.

Trauma is something that hurts and many NEVER recover from it.Nobody asks to be traumatized,Nobody deserves traumatizing. Yet these asshole pedophiles dish trauma out to kids,repeat rapists dish out the trauma too..

Pedophiles and rapists do not deserve to exist especially IF they re offend they break trust AGAIN after serving time already..They should forfeit their lives for causing such harm..I do not care about the lives of pedophiles.They are scum.
The pain the greedy self absorbed inhumane sadism of pedophiles and rapists cause in kids and people , hurts the victims for the rest of their lives The pain they cause because of their habits and their unwillingness to stop or be cured is the reason for them to die.

A pedophile because of his choices renders his own life worthless and he breaks trust in a way that is unspeakably evil.Kill the repeat offender pedophiles and rapists.I don't trust ANY of them they are worthless.I'd kill them first offense but I know there has been set up situations. Repeat offenses are harder to fake..You have to draw the line somewhere and decide what you will trust and tolerate and what is intolerable.Pedophilia and rape is an intolerable evil choice a sadistic piece of shit makes and imposes on others for his own"pleasures" I have no problem with killing the perpetrators of these crimes..

:shrug:

How can one support the death penalty for repeat rapists, but not for repeat murderers?

But not ALWAYS..Where do you draw the line? Why not send every soldier who has shot someone to jail then? The soldier murders because they are commanded to do it..why are they not held accountable like Joe blow citizen is?? Is murder ok just in war or not??,Where do you draw the line? While you are at it you might as well toss their commanders in jail too.Oh and jail everyone who kills in self defense..

Murder is not always done for"pleasure" or as a game of power over another person.
There are legit reasons to kill.If I see a person raping a child I may kill them to help protect the kid.If a thief threatens me with a weapon I may have to kill him. If a bully is beating me up I may kill him to stop him from killing me.There are legit reasons to kill,and confused reasons that may or may not be the killers fault.

Rape and pedophilia and torture have no legit reasons to exist..
Rape and pedophilia are done by a perpetrator to get off on power and domination.Killing is not always about domination or power.

Murder can be done for self defense or other purposes that are not immoral.
And Murder can be done for EVERY immoral reasons like power.

Rape,torture and pedophilia are ALWAYS immoral and wrong and a CHOICE .

There IS a moral difference in cases of rape, torture or pedophilia VS certain cases of murder..

I understand your excellent points though, and they are noted. :) It's true there is never any justification for rape, but all rapists have serious mental problems and impulse control issues they obviously cannot help.

It's a very sticky situation, for sure.

That is a dangerous generality to dispense.

Being the victim of a very violent crime myself, I can attest that there's at least ONE rapist I know of who had no mental problems. He did it for power and control when his wife's cycle kicked in - he was too immature to handle the complexities of normal married life. He attacked several times before being caught and it was his thought that he'd go out and 'get sex' that his wife wasn't going to have while her normal cycle was in effect.

While I'm comfortable with his 65 yrs in jail for his crime, there's no way to excuse or rationalize the terror inflicted upon me or any of his other victims. He knew full well what he was doing during the commission of his crimes and made no bones about it at his trial.

That being said, had he killed one of us during his crime spree, I don't believe I'd have any problems seeing him pay the ultimate price. Wanting vengeance is a bitch to deal with, but until any of you has a gun to your heads during the commission of a horribly violent crime, please DO NOT presume to speak for ANY victim until you've walked a mile in our shoes...your opinions just might change.

The issue I have with Tookie is that he's claimed to have atoned for his sins/crimes. Why atone if you're truly innocent? No one has forced him to do this and I feel that it rings false that he's now trying claim redemption for something (4 brutal killings) he said he never did.

All of you are certainly entitled to your opinions on this, but before you vomit out all kinds of platitudes about how he should receive clemency, please take time to think about the victims and their families - there is no way you can speak for them in this scenario unless you've spent some time in their shoes.

Flame away - I'm sure some of you will.

Sociopaths do not have a conscience. They don't feel they don't care..All they want is to dominate and win control and get off.

Sociopaths are not human beings,because they LACK a conscience the one thing that MAKES a human being,well,humane.

I have seen 1 person who was in a hospital for the criminally insane for rape. And he was RELIGIOUS about his therapy and felt crushing shame.
But I agree most rapists are NOT mentally ill.In fact alot of criminals seem VERY SANE... Because they have deadened emotions except for sex drive anger and competition vengeance winning jealousy etc.. They do not feel upset sad or tender,most of the time they are bored. So they seek stimulation in ways that are sickening because they are bored with their existence and cannot understand or feel tender or compassionate emotions like people with a conscience do..Everything to a sociopath is win or lose a game.There is no room for altruism or empathy when everything is a game to win or something to alleviate boredom..

Sociopaths are morally depraved and cannot be trusted because have no conscience or human emotional life.They are not a whole human being.And that said they do not respond like normal humans do to others.And they cannot live with us or without us.We cannot pity these sociopaths because they take pity and use it hurt us further by exploiting our tolerance,kindhearted empathy and compassion.You cannot trust anyone without some BOUNDARIES.To make boundaries one must exercise JUDGMENT (sometimes very harsh) and DISCERNMENT of others CHARACTER and your own.

between being a flat-out criminal and a sociopath. While I agree with your assessment and decription of what makes up a sociopath vs. the garden-variety criminal - there are just some criminals who are not sociopaths; they are just criminals for crime's sake. I put gang-bangers who kill for the thrill and most rapists in the 'just a criminal' category. There are some one-off murderers who fall into the non-sociopath category, too.

I do think that hanging a psychological tag on the flat-out criminals, a sociopath if you will, somehow gives them a chance at being found insane, or deficient in knowing about importance of the crime they committed. Not every criminal is a sociopath - although there are several who fit the bill, Ted Bundy being one of them.

Please do not give voice to criminals who CHOOSE their path in crime - that discounts people who are victims or survivors of their abhorent behaviour and it's a cop-out for criminal and gives the truly bad people a chance to get over on the system.

After all I've been through, I do believe in our court system - again, another chance to get flamed by those who don't believe the system is fair. Having been through the process, the courts tend to bend over backwards to ensure that the accused has a fair day in court or in the process - sometimes at the expense of the victim.

Again, walk a mile in my shoes or those who have gone through something similar - you cannot judge me until you are in the same space - you'll never, ever understand it.

a victim of a pedophile,of incest and I have faced attempted rapes.

I have been there. And to forcibly rape someone is not something done out of "sexual frustration" it is about power and abuse of trust and violation of consent. To get away with rape one has to plan to do it secret,and to create a "culture" that excuses such things,and a victim that is so demoralized they are afraid to speak or resist.Think of the calculated,planned,deliberate cruelty this requires on part of the perpetrator.Not tolerating perpetrators does not make one a perpetrator.A perpetrator is NOT trustworthy because they are not innocent they violate consent.

A rapist is a sociopath IMHO. Sociopaths feel powerful by violating BOUNDARIES and their conduct is"disordered" because they get off on abusing trust and power.Sociopaths are not rare.And to me they have no excuses to exist once they act out. They are not human beings, these people lack a conscience, the 1 think in human beings that make us humane and human, trustworthy.

each of us has our points and fully believe in them.

I say bravo to you for your input - it's made me a more thoughtful reader of someone who's taken the time to respond and give voice to their side of the discussion.

I'd rather discuss this and think on a deeper level rather than react and whatnot.
We disagree. and that's OK.with me.
However I admit I do not like the state doing the killing in Death penalty cases,because I do not trust the state to be just sane or anything but confused at best and criminal at worst.. There are way too many black folks on Death row who shouldn't be ,and too many white folks that should be dead because they are that dangerous.

I would in my dreams want victims to be able to kill who harms them if they decide to do it after the courts prove guilt and the dangerousness of the perp..I wish life in prison really meant LIFE IN PRISON.

You may still have to after an escape catch the perp and kill him.Because he is not safe in jail anymore he can get out now.He will try again..
Some risks to others are not mine to tolerate by tolerating a criminal who escapes and harms again.Some perps do some time,get out and rape again,some escape and rape again,I would definitely kill these people because I don't have endless an tolerance for them and their acts.At some point a perp pushes limits and chooses to force the hand of "authorities" to have to kill them.

But if anything, I think that means that anyone who behaves that way has serious mental problems...obviously. Anyone who is sick enough to do those things has to have something very seriously wrong with them.

I'm really very sorry for what happened to you - I can't imagine going through that. :hug: I hope you're doing okay now, and able to move on normally from that horrible event.

But how many rape victims have to suffer because a rapist has a problem?

How many lives that are innocent a ruined because of 1 serial rapist?

How is this justice?

If the perpetrator gets out and refuses to go along with therapy,and rapes again,how many cycles of therapy and relapse is enough for the perpetrator and the fresh victims he creates are you willing to tolerate before you admit you have to kill the guy? A sick person gets better,all he has to do is at one point stop therapy,get stressed and and choose to let out his frustration or act out on an innocent person than another innocent life is seriously wounded. For WHAT?.So a perpetrator who cannot be trusted is allowed to abuse trust AGAIN.

When do you decide to draw a boundary and say,some things are too risky to trust?

You said,

"Sometimes a person's own actions can forfeit their right to live because some acts are so heinous the person who does it has lost the trust of humankind ,He cannot be trusted with his freedom and existence among other people anymore..You can do things to lose trust of humankind. No one is entitled to be trusted once they violate trust.Some criminals cannot be trusted.

It isn't vengeance it is because of broken trust."

I thought I had heard all the "justifications" of this vile, obscene thing we do when we execute people. But I must confess that's a new one on me.

Let me put it this way: My biggest problem with the death penalty is that it is so harshly judgmental. That's my biggest problem with our criminal justice system generally, but particularly with the death penalty. When people commit particularly heinous crimes, you are saying that's all the more reason why they should be killed. I say that's all the more reason why they shouldn't. Anybody who can do something that horrible obviously is a very sick puppy. They have to be removed from society for public safety reasons, but they do not have to be killed. Isn't it true that there is bad in the best of us, and good in the worst of us? So when an execution is carried out, isn't that like throwing the baby out with the bath? Because we're snuffing out the good in them as well as the bad?

Who was it who said, "The eyes are windows into the soul"? Those are deep words that help to describe the deep creature we call homo sapiens.

We humans are incredibly complex creatures. There are profound, incomprehensible, unfathomable depths in the hearts, minds, souls and psyches of every one of us. Who knows or understands why we behave the way we do?

Psychologists, criminologists, sociologists, theologians and philosophers have been debating free will vs. determinism for centures, and no doubt will continue that debate for centuries to come, but who among us REALLY understands human behavior? How can we possibly understand the psyche of Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer or any other killer so thoroughly and completely that we can be SO SURE that he truly is responsible for the horrible crime that he committed that we can decide that he "deserves" to die for it?

If we are going to judge and condemn the killer to the nth degree and mete out punishment to the nth degree, shouldn't we first also have the nth degree of understanding, compassion and wisdom? And shouldn't we be in possession of 100 percent of the relevant facts? And aren't some of those relevant facts buried out of reach in the unplumbable depths of that killer's heart, mind, soul and psyche?

This is one of the main reasons why I oppose the death penalty. No matter how horrible the crime, because we don't have that god-like ability to truly UNDERSTAND the reasons for that killer's behavior, WE HAVE NO RIGHT TO KILL HIM. It is necessary in the interests of public safety that we not allow the McVeighs and Bundys and Dahmers of the world to run around loose, but it is NOT necessary, or justifiable, for us to kill them.

Ron

You said,

"Sometimes a person's own actions can forfeit their right to live because some acts are so heinous the person who does it has lost the trust of humankind ,He cannot be trusted with his freedom and existence among other people anymore..You can do things to lose trust of humankind. No one is entitled to be trusted once they violate trust.Some criminals cannot be trusted.

It isn't vengeance it is because of broken trust."

I thought I had heard all the "justifications" of this vile, obscene thing we do when we execute people. But I must confess that's a new one on me.

Maybe think on it.

Let me put it this way: My biggest problem with the death penalty is that it is so harshly judgmental.

My problem with the justice system is it is CONFUSED in it's judgments.
Harshness is part of judgment.

That's my biggest problem with our criminal justice system generally, but particularly with the death penalty. When people commit particularly heinous crimes, you are saying that's all the more reason why they should be killed.

YES. I do not trust them to be safe in their body in this world.I do not trust them with their LIFE.Because they ABUSE lives of others.

I say that's all the more reason why they shouldn't. Anybody who can do something that horrible obviously is a very sick puppy. They have to be removed from society for public safety reasons, but they do not have to be killed. Isn't it true that there is bad in the best of us, and good in the worst of us? So when an execution is carried out, isn't that like throwing the baby out with the bath? Because we're snuffing out the good in them as well as the bad?

I am not a torturer a rapist or pedophile. I am NOT like them.

Who was it who said, "The eyes are windows into the soul"? Those are deep words that help to describe the deep creature we call homo sapiens.

I do not think pedophiles torturers or rapists HAVE a soul if they did they could not do those things to others and GET OFF on it.Part of having a soul is having inner restraint that comes from a sense of EMPATHY.

We humans are incredibly complex creatures. There are profound, incomprehensible, unfathomable depths in the hearts, minds, souls and psyches of every one of us. Who knows or understands why we behave the way we do?

I know damn well when I do something bad,it makes me sick inside with shame and guilt. It's called having character.I judge myself and in judging myself and my choices and actions I automatically conduct myself in a way that I am trustworthy being free among others.

Psychologists, criminologists, sociologists, theologians and philosophers have been debating free will vs. determinism for centures, and no doubt will continue that debate for centuries to come, but who among us REALLY understands human behavior? How can we possibly understand the psyche of Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer or any other killer so thoroughly and completely that we can be SO SURE that he truly is responsible for the horrible crime that he committed that we can decide that he "deserves" to die for it?

Than tell me,What is it that STOPS you from torturing a kid? Why do you feel revulsion at this sort of thing? Maybe it's because you HAVE a conscience?Maybe you are DIFFERENT kind of soul than the sort of scum that enjoys rape?

If we are going to judge and condemn the killer to the nth degree and mete out punishment to the nth degree, shouldn't we first also have the nth degree of understanding, compassion and wisdom?

NOt for evil. Not for people who cannot or will not RECIPROCATE and show compassion and wisdom in RETURN.Some criminals do not care and will seek pity to get away with more crimes they get off on.They have no shame.

And shouldn't we be in possession of 100 percent of the relevant facts? And aren't some of those relevant facts buried out of reach in the unplumbable depths of that killer's heart, mind, soul and psyche?

Ask me if I care? Because past a certain point,I do not care anymore. I do not waste my pity on people who use it to harm me or others..I have been through serious trauma yet I NEVER became a perpetrator. Some perpetrators NEVER suffered trauma and yet they torture innocents.

This is one of the main reasons why I oppose the death penalty. No matter how horrible the crime, because we don't have that god-like ability to truly UNDERSTAND the reasons for that killer's behavior, WE HAVE NO RIGHT TO KILL HIM.


And the sadistic asshole HAS NO RIGHT TO VIOLATE CONSENT AND HURT OTHERS for his own PLEASURE or GAMES.If he will not choose to stop hurting others .KILL HIM. The Perp has made his choice clear with his harmful actions repeatedly that he cannot be trusted to exist.. .

It is necessary in the interests of public safety that we not allow the McVeighs and Bundys and Dahmers of the world to run around loose, but it is NOT necessary, or justifiable, for us to kill them.

I think it is justifiable and in some cases very necessary.

You said,

"My problem with the justice system is it is CONFUSED in it's judgments.
Harshness is part of judgment."

My response:

Harshness has nothing to do with justice. We should be pursuing justice, not judgment.

You said:

"YES. I do not trust them to be safe in their body in this world.I do not trust them with their LIFE.Because they ABUSE lives of others."

My response:

I don't want them to die. I want them to come to an understanding of how much they have hurt others and the fact that they have done wrong. I want them to feel remorse for that. I would like for them to be required to have pictures of their victims posted all over their jail cells for as long as they are doing time. Maybe after several years, or several decades, of that they will change. As much as it might surprise you, people sometimes DO change, sometimes very drastically over the course of an entire lifetime, sometimes even very drastically in an instant. That's what the phrase "having an epiphany" or "getting a revelation" means.

You said:

"I am not a torturer a rapist or pedophile. I am NOT like them."

I did not suggest that you are. But now that you mention it, I have always thought that murderers and death penalty supporters are more alike than they realize. The only difference between them is the reason WHY they revel in killing and death. Jeffrey Dahmer killed a certain kind of person for one reason. Or maybe more than one reason, but whatever his reason(s), you and I both agree that those reasons did not justify his killing. Death penalty supporters, on the other hand, kill (by proxy, at a distance) another entirely different kind of person, for very much different reasons. You and I profoundly DISAGREE on whether those reasons justify those killings. I say that the reasons Jeffrey Dahmer killed, and the reasons you kill (at a distance, and by proxy) are equally invalid and the killings are equally vile and obscene.

You said:

"I do not think pedophiles torturers or rapists HAVE a soul if they did they could not do those things to others and GET OFF on it.Part of having a soul is having inner restraint that comes from a sense of EMPATHY."

My response:

I don't know that pedophiles, killers, etc. have no soul, and neither do you. In fact, I firmly believe that they do. I remember a case several years that I heard about on 20/20 or NBC Dateline or one of those shows about a Florida highway patrol trooper who was a serial killer and knew it and felt extreme remorse about and tried to warn others about it. He had a beat on rural Florida highways and he asked repeatedly to be removed from that beat because he recognized this dark, vile thing inside him and he knew that eventually he was going to lose control and respond to it. One day he did, indeed, pull over a female motorist, tell her to get into his patrol car, took her to a remote wooded area and raped and murdered her. The point I'm trying to make is that sometimes these people DO have consciences that are constantly warring with the evil thing that drives them to do vile things. And even when it isn't obvious that they do, I'd be willing to bet the mortgage that EVERY serial killer has a conscience, an essence, a heart and soul residing somewhere deep within him that KNOWS that what he's doing is wrong. As I said, it really is true that there is bad in the best of us, and good in the worst of us.

You said:

" NOt for evil. Not for people who cannot or will not RECIPROCATE and show compassion and wisdom in RETURN.Some criminals do not care and will seek pity to get away with more crimes they get off on.They have no shame."

I believe I've already answered that on the previous response. I wish I had time to continue to respond point-by-point but I have to get ready to show up at work in 40 minutes as I write this. Let me quote a few individuals from history: Jesus said that as you do unto the least of your brethren, you do unto Me. Abraham Lincoln said that you can tell a lot about how civilized a society is by how the least or lowest among them are treated. Dostoyevsky said that you can tell a lot about how civilized a society is by going into its prisons. True justice consists not of harshness and unforgiveness but of redemption and of giving every human being the opportunity for redemption. Because no matter how vile a person seems to be on the surface, that essence, that soul, that core of decency is somewhere down there. If a person is absolutely irredeemable that's the same as saying that core is unreachable. But we don't know about anybody whether that core is unreachable. Sure, there are people who cannot be allowed to run around loose, EVER, but we have to allow them a natural lifetime of opportuunities to redeem themselves. Justice is about protecting society from these people WITHOUT the harshness or judgmentalness. Jeffrey Dahmer had something vile and obscene driving him. Do you know what that vile thing was? Can you point to it? Can you explain how it got there? Of course you can't. You can only offer theories that might be true but probably are not. Until we have the god-like ability to look all the way down to the unplumbable depths of a killer's or pedophile's or torturer's heart and soul, we have no right to judge him. Only to sequester him from society, and even this is a necessary evil for public safety reasons.

Ron

First of all I hate jesus he holds no water with me for "moral arguments" ok? Jesus is responsible for alot of sick brutality in his name and in the bible. Christianity the religion to me is a TOXIC belief, That said....

You said,

"My problem with the justice system is it is CONFUSED in it's judgments.
Harshness is part of judgment."

My response:

Harshness has nothing to do with justice. We should be pursuing justice, not judgment.


My reply
To have real justice you must know right from wrong ,what is bad and not bad and that requires you use JUDGMENT.That requires cultivation of DISCERNMENT and discernment comes from making judgments and reasoned thought out decisions called judgments. This is how individuals and societies create safe sane legal and interpersonal boundaries to regulate their own well being.

You said:

"YES. I do not trust them to be safe in their body in this world.I do not trust them with their LIFE.Because they ABUSE lives of others."

My response:

I don't want them to die. I want them to come to an understanding of how much they have hurt others and the fact that they have done wrong. I want them to feel remorse for that.

My reply
What if they feel no remorse? Some criminals never feel remorse.They die without feeling one iota of regrets about their crimes except that they got caught.Not everyone is LIKE YOU.Some people are so different from both of us that they do not feel shame remorse of love at all.


My reply cont.
I would like for them to be required to have pictures of their victims posted all over their jail cells for as long as they are doing time.

My reply
If they do not care pictures of the victims with be nothing but jerk of material for the criminal.They would replay their glorious night of unlimited power over and over you know.



My Response cont.
Maybe after several years, or several decades, of that they will change. As much as it might surprise you, people sometimes DO change, sometimes very drastically over the course of an entire lifetime, sometimes even very drastically in an instant. That's what the phrase "having an epiphany" or "getting a revelation" means.

My reply:
I do not trust this waiting on a criminal's "epiphany" in a world as messed up and sick as this one is.There is a risk especially if the offender gets out again and rapes. If he can get some parole officer duped or gets a shortened sentence with a plea bargain and gets out and rapes or kills again what do you do?..Jail house converts are commonplace for a reason..Maybe this is because the criminals know they can dupe religious people that think as you do if they mouth the right words., and some of these "reborn" criminals do get out or escape and kill or rape again. Sociopaths are charismatic consummate liars.Wise up.And don't romanticize the criminal.

I said:

"I am not a torturer a rapist or pedophile. I am NOT like them."


Your Response:
I did not suggest that you are. But now that you mention it, I have always thought that murderers and death penalty supporters are more alike than they realize. The only difference between them is the reason WHY they revel in killing and death.

My reply.
I don't revel in death I want justice I want people who prey on others UNABLE to do it again.FOREVER.

Your response
Jeffrey Dahmer killed a certain kind of person for one reason. Or maybe more than one reason, but whatever his reason(s), you and I both agree that those reasons did not justify his killing. Death penalty supporters, on the other hand, kill (by proxy, at a distance) another entirely different kind of person, for very much different reasons.


My reply.
Your definitions of what murder VS killing is reflect your moral relativistic confusion because you fear judging..
Murder is is about unprovoked unjustified killing of innocent people
With your argument I guess every soldier needs to be in jail forever every cop who shoots a guy threatening people with a knife in public is a murderer Every battered wife who kills her abusive boyfriend is a murderer..

Killing a killer who has killed others and has no shame and will kill again given an opportunity is a functions of public safety,public boundaries and justice.See a murderer has killed innocents,he has
made a choice and has DEVALUED himself by his actions. He is not to be trusted..Killing a killer is not murdering an innocent.It's killing a killer so he will never harm again. Big difference.

But because you refuse to judge and refuse to develop moral discernment you cannot be trusted to keep a boundary at all.This is what moral relativism is.Alot of christians left and right are sick with it.


Your response
You and I profoundly DISAGREE on whether those reasons justify those killings. I say that the reasons Jeffrey Dahmer killed, and the reasons you kill (at a distance, and by proxy) are equally invalid and the killings are equally vile and obscene.

My reply
Self defense is obscene? Desiring a criminal to stop killing forever who does not feel remorse and would get off on murdering me or someone else if an opportunity to do so arises is obscene? I think trusting people who kill and feel no shame is obscene.You have no right to put my life at risk for ideology and sentimental warped christian lunacy.

You said:

"I do not think pedophiles torturers or rapists HAVE a soul if they did they could not do those things to others and GET OFF on it.Part of having a soul is having inner restraint that comes from a sense of EMPATHY."

your response:

I don't know that pedophiles, killers, etc. have no soul, and neither do you.

My reply
Yes I do know because they have no conscience

Your response cont.
In fact, I firmly believe that they do. I remember a case several years that I heard about on 20/20 or NBC Dateline or one of those shows about a Florida highway patrol trooper who was a serial killer and knew it and felt extreme remorse about and tried to warn others about it.


He had a beat on rural Florida highways and he asked repeatedly to be removed from that beat because he recognized this dark, vile thing inside him and he knew that eventually he was going to lose control and respond to it. One day he did, indeed, pull over a female motorist, tell her to get into his patrol car, took her to a remote wooded area and raped and murdered her. The point I'm trying to make is that sometimes these people DO have consciences that are constantly warring with the evil thing that drives them to do vile things. And even when it isn't obvious that they do, I'd be willing to bet the mortgage that EVERY serial killer has a conscience, an essence, a heart and soul residing somewhere deep within him that KNOWS that what he's doing is wrong.

My reply
And how many people's lives are you willing for him to murder if he escapes jail,kills again or murders a guard a cell mate..
Some peoples actions prove they cannot be trusted.

You said:

" NOt for evil. Not for people who cannot or will not RECIPROCATE and show compassion and wisdom in RETURN.Some criminals do not care and will seek pity to get away with more crimes they get off on.They have no shame."

Your response

I believe I've already answered that on the previous response. I wish I had time to continue to respond point-by-point but I have to get ready to show up at work in 40 minutes as I write this. Let me quote a few individuals from history: Jesus said that as you do unto the least of your brethren, you do unto Me.

My reply
Fuck jesus. You want to be nailed by sociopaths to a cross and be a martyr like him go ahead.Christianity has HARMED societies by twisting peoples sanity into sick utopian moral relativism that end up putting victims and innocents in danger because of sentimental cowardice.

Your response
Abraham Lincoln said that you can tell a lot about how civilized a society is by how the least or lowest among them are treated.

My reply:
Cheap shot!
By the lowest he meant THE INNOCENTS the kids,slaves, women,poor and disabled.The dis-empowered INNOCENTS.

Your response:
Dostoyevsky said that you can tell a lot about how civilized a society is by going into its prisons.

My reply:
And what about our society makes it uncivilized? Criminals in high and low places do it by traumatizing, killing, robbing and ruining others lives and the pain these sociopath shits cause.

Your response:
True justice consists not of harshness and unforgiveness but of redemption and of giving every human being the opportunity for redemption.

My reply
Plato said virtue cannot be taught.
Court is their opportunity as are The many appeals is their chance for"redemption".
At some point you have to say enough is enough and remove them from life lest the destroy more life. Human nature does not change through words we as a people are not so damn noble as we like to pretend we are.Reality is not rational,..especially DOMINATING humans like serial killers and tyrants.Judgment against hurtful behaviors is a function of a rational and moral society.If a criminal will not stay in jail and he does not feel remorse he is a danger because his seeking of his freedom makes all the people around him vulnerable.

You responded.
Because no matter how vile a person seems to be on the surface, that essence, that soul, that core of decency is somewhere down there.

A few may have a soul buried under tons of shit, BUT not all people carry the core of decency in them they are without the human part of a human being.,This assumption all people are the same is the hight of solipsism.
You responded.
If a person is absolutely irredeemable that's the same as saying that core is unreachable.

I reply
Yep. Pedophiles are not cured why do you think that is? Maybe it's because they do not want redemption if it means they must NEVER sexually exploit a child..

You said
But we don't know about anybody whether that core is unreachable.
I reply
Pedophiles have a huge recidivism rate they are according to therapists UNRELEASABLE.as are alot of rapists.Murderers have a lower recidivism rate if sexual stuff is not involved.These people are not like people with a conscience.I ask how many people who are innocent need to die and be traumatized until you and other utopians and moral relativists figure this problem out?


You said
Sure, there are people who cannot be allowed to run around loose, EVER, but we have to allow them a natural lifetime of opportunities to redeem themselves. Justice is about protecting society from these people WITHOUT the harshness or judgmentalness. Jeffrey Dahmer had something vile and obscene driving him. Do you know what that vile thing was? Can you point to it? Can you explain how it got there? Of course you can't. You can only offer theories that might be true but probably are not. Until we have the god-like ability to look all the way down to the unplumbable depths of a killer's or pedophiles or torturers heart and soul, we have no right to judge him.

I reply
WE have EVERY right and even a MORAL OBLIGATION to judge them.The (non self defense based) killers,rapists pedophiles or torturers and draw boundaries on their social conduct because it threatens ME..andI have a moral obligation to protect our right to limit the criminals harm and stop the harm they do in any way that stops them forever.
If we have to kill a murderer to stop him from escaping jail to go murdering innocents than he is getting what he is asking for(by his actions which speak much louder than the words of a liar)


You responded
Only to sequester him from society, and even this is a necessary evil for public safety reasons.

I reply..

Sequestering does not always work. If it did I may agree with you,Death however is one sequestering a criminal cannot get out of. This misplaced pity too often gets innocent people hurt when a criminal gets out and rapes or kills again.Jail breaks happen, plea bargains happen,guards are murdered by criminals and they kill cell mates.

The criminals that are so violent are not to be trusted with their own bodies or freedom. They have proven themselves dangerous to others.And No one is under any obligation to trust the criminal's words, pleas,play acting "reformation" False Epiphanies, Religious conversions or promises to not do it again..

...because I am spending way too much time on this. Have you noticed that these posts keep getting longer and longer? And by now we're just throwing the same things back and forth at each other anyway. So I'm going to say just a few final words and then you can have the last say. This post is buried deep enough that probably nobody but you and I are reading it any more, anyway.

First, I am NOT particularly religious. Please don't assume that just because I quoted Jesus that means I am religious. I'm kinda-sorta New Age, kind-sorta agnostic, a little bit of both, but not quite either. I don't know whether Jesus was the Son of God (whatever the hell that means) or a very wise philosopher or just a man who was really smart and centuries ahead of his time. I do know, though, that he said some very deep and profound things. And just because they carry no weight with you doesn't mean they weren't deep and profound. Just because YOU don't recognize the profundity doesn't mean it isn't there.

Second, I think you REALLY need to do some serious self-examination of your harsh, judgmental attitudes.

Third, your assessment of the character of pedophiles, torturers, killers, etc., and particularly your assertion that their overt actions prove that they have no character and no soul, is something that you keep spouting over and over without any proof. It is, in fact, an unprovable assertion, because neither you nor I nor anybody else on this planet can look all the way down into the unplumbable depths of the soul and heart and essence and core of ANY human being. This is why the nth degree of judgment and punishment requires the nth degreee of understanding.

Fourth, what the hell are you talking about with this "moral relativism" b.s.? That's right-wing fundie lingo! They complain about "moral relativism" all the time but I do not expect it coming from a DU poster with a 1000+ post count who says he hates Jesus and Christians and religion. For your information, I absolutely DO believe there are moral absolutes. My abhorrence at KILLING people is one of those absolutes. I'm not a pacifist; if it truly IS a kill-or-be-killed situation it IS justifiable to kill somebody. But even then it's a necessary evil. An execution is not one of those cases.

Fifth, and these are my last words in this thread, I know that as there are fewer and fewer people in society who think like you do, and more and people who think like I do, there will also be fewer and fewer Dahmers and Bundys and McVeighs. And I think that fact speaks volumes about which one of us is right on this issue. Think about it.

Peace, Ron

This post is buried deep enough that probably nobody but you and I are reading it any more, anyway.

Agreed.

First, I am NOT particularly religious. Please don't assume that just because I quoted Jesus that means I am religious. I'm kinda-sorta New Age, kind-sorta agnostic, a little bit of both, but not quite either.

Ok But I really don't see where religion has anything to add to this argument.It was silly of you to try to pull moral superiority trip with religion with me.

I don't know whether Jesus was the Son of God (whatever the hell that means) or a very wise philosopher or just a man who was really smart and centuries ahead of his time. I do know, though, that he said some very deep and profound things. And just because they carry no weight with you doesn't mean they weren't deep and profound. Just because YOU don't recognize the profundity doesn't mean it isn't there.

Umm I do and I see two sides to the jesus type of profundity.Jesus was not really a person he is a metaphor.Reality as the one we are in now it is DUALITY No use pretending a state of duality is one. There is a war of essences, But I don't expect you to grasp the profundity of that concept.


Second, I think you REALLY need to do some serious self-examination of your harsh, judgmental attitudes.

As do you. You point at me and I point right back and you say I judge .
I unlike you don't fool myself about the fact I am judging.
Here is something to consider...

Of the 272,111 persons released from prisons in 15 States in 1994, an estimated 67.5% were rearrested for a felony or serious misdemeanor within 3 years, 46.9% were re-convicted, and 25.4% re sentenced to prison for a new crime.

Hmm 67.5 had no epiphany.

Of the 9,691 male sex offenders released from prisons in 15 States in 1994, 5.3% were rearrested for a new sex crime within 3 years of release.Of released sex offenders who allegedly committed another sex crime, 40% perpetrated the new offense within a year or less from their prison discharge.
40 % of these pieces of shit feel no remorse for rape
hell they get out of jail and do it again...fancy that..
But the victims of rape are wounded for years and if they can't afford therapy..well tough shit for rape victims right,maybe they should just kill themselves if they can't cope? Can't let a rapist feel unloved and feel like a monster can you? Poor widdle rapist.


http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm

I'm not making this up.

Third, your assessment of the character of pedophiles, torturers, killers, etc., and particularly your assertion that their overt actions prove that they have no character and no soul, is something that you keep spouting over and over without any proof.

And where is your proof they HAVE one.Prove to me the presence of a soul. YOU CAN'T.Every pedophile has a soul..ever sperm is sacred..sound familiar?

Fourth, what the hell are you talking about with this "moral relativism" b.s.? That's right-wing fundie lingo!


Oh is it? Have you ever read ANY philosophy? Moral relativism has been debated since Ancient times. As in Greece!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_relativism


They complain about "moral relativism" all the time but I do not expect it coming from a DU poster with a 1000+ post count who says he hates Jesus and Christians and religion.

Moral relativism was a word among many words recently Co-Opted by rightwingnuts and redefined. The wing nuts have warped the meaning of moral relativism into something else while pretending to be moral absolutists and most people don't know enough philosophy to know how ludicrous this is.. The right wingers have WARPED alot of the English language into other meanings that are false and rhetorical ,rendering it a buzz word to cause reaction in people who forgot the original meanings of those co-opted words.

Liberal used to mean a generous kindhearted person among other positive things..
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/liberal

Nowadays liberals are using the right wing dictionary to define themselves, and they are scared to say in public they are generous kindhearted people.Sad how words have been so warped by the right and it has become such a part of how even the left defines language the left takes on the rightwingnuts false definition of words like liberal or moral relativist as truth.


For your information, I absolutely DO believe there are moral absolutes. My abhorrence at KILLING people is one of those absolutes. I'm not a pacifist; if it truly IS a kill-or-be-killed situation it IS justifiable to kill somebody. But even then it's a necessary evil. An execution is not one of those cases.

In some cases execution is a nessary evil I have pointed out time and again criminals escape and kill again,you IGNORED that. I pointed out flaws in the system that give criminals early release and the plea bargain crap that shortens sentences if they rat out another criminal.Life in prison does not mean in prison until death.Gang bangers go to jail and get out in two weeks.Why? This is not a good thing. If the justice system fails to do it's job and enough people get hurt because the criminals rights outweigh the victims rights and social safety..what do you do than when citizens get vigilante on you because the state isn't keeping criminals in jail?? If justice is not done people will do it for themselves and street justice is not all that just when criminals dominate the neighborhood. Women who are nearly killed by abusive boyfriends fear the time when their bat shit crazy ex gets out and hunts them down and hurts them or kills them.It happens. Neighbors who snitch on drug gangs fear the gangsters release and the revenge from his"ho-mies" for he knows he is a target.This is reality it's not a warm &fuzzy jesus does not always give people souls for the holidays.Some criminals never get an "epiphany" so they go out and kill again and they don't care. What would you do with them if life in prison is not life IN PRISON anymore? What do you do when murders because they are buddies with so and so judge and they only get 10 years? Rapists get 4 months or two weeks? Pedophiles get 3 months? These criminals can and do re offend.

Fifth, and these are my last words in this thread, I know that as there are fewer and fewer people in society who think like you do,

So? I'm not here to be popular among left wing,moderate or right wing utopians with their heads in some other storybook reality. I don't care if you think I'm barbaric or whatever for my POV. My views come from my own experiences.That is something you don't get here.I have been forced to be around criminals,I have been in a halfway house that was partly occupied with people from Clifton T perkins a hospital for the criminally insane. Some of these assholes were dangerous,some committed crimes went back in the hospital and were back free on the street after a month. I went to this halfway house because I had no other housing options.While I was there I went to a local psych hospital for outpatient, and they had a pedophile ward there..The place BECAUSE OF THE PEDOPHILES had to have armed guards at all the doors,we had to empty pockets and go through metal detector gates with alarms.Unlike those assholes I had done no crimes yet I had to put up with all this rigmarole to see my therapist and the leering threatening bullshit from these criminals as they were led out past me in cuffs just to see my therapist for TRAUMA.All this security and suffering caused by pedophiles who refuse to stop harming kids..

I have been hurt by a pedophile when I was a kid,Criminals were in my home as I faced incest and I have faced attempted rapes from other criminals because of the misplaced pity from a system full of people like you,a system that trusted these fuckers and let them out on parole.THese criminals had life sentences but were not serving them IN JAIL. Some epiphany.The only epiphany creeps like the rapists who went after me seem to understand is castration or death..
Not all people are good deep down Some people are evil in their cores.. This reality is a DUALITY.There is a war of essences.But I don't expect you to comprehend that.

I think your willingness to blow off the experiences of victims,who fear the freedom of some abusive madman, the publics safety and victims safety for saving an unrepentant criminal,who will not change, who seeks escape,and repeatedly offends, is well disgusting and dangerous.

We disagree..

And I do not care if the whole world disagrees with me on this.Lots of people who have been hurt agree with my POV too and they are not right wingers.
I will feel what I feel about this regardless of peer pressure from new age utopians who think the right wing coined the concept of moral relativism.
Moral relativism is an ancient concept it goes back to Protagoras,long before neocon were invented..But I don't expect you to get that.
It also is mentioned as a problem in your bible.The same one those evil fundies use to bash us with.

I hope you never face a bored criminal with no consience in a dark alley who decides to rape you for giggles'n'shits who after court gets out of jail in two months and comes back to kill you for calling police and getting treatment at a hospital for help.

I wonder how much you care about the well being of felons after a situation like that..with no help.

We should merely provide the holding cell for God's final verdict. Anything else is flawed human opinion.

And sometimes (actually, very often), we are in error.

That's why I don't trust the STATE to do it.
But in Principle the Death penalty is fine for torturers, genocidal maniacs(war criminals the brass who order genocide),rapists,tyrants,and pedophiles.

DP can be in case of ineffective incarceration and would thus not be a form of revenge.

Also, myself, against the death penalty as too good for them, let them rot. Is this revenge?

To say someone is irredeemable is to say God fails.
To kill someone redeemable jeopardizes your soul.

There are times when the death penalty can be a trade in risk of my soul's jeopardy. Ineffective incarceration.
I might relent with a higher standard than beyond a reasonable doubt. But, it's my soul.

with no conscience.
I don't trust people who cannot or refuse to control their warped desires to torture and rape.Morally depraved people cannot be trusted.

What would you do?

Their lives are made untrustable by their own choices.

We owe no one trust after they break trust.

Can't trust some people as far as you can throw them. How far can you throw someone who lacks conscience. Not far enough.

But, you do trust them. You trust them to continue their morally depraved, warped, bad-choice, conscienceless ways.

Can they be trusted again? I guess that depends on how much you trust that last statement on your trust.

What would I do? Sit them in jail. It's a pretty well tested system.

jail for rapists pedophiles torturers war criminals tyrants and murders who do it for ideology, pleasure or domination..and make sure they NEVER get out.EVER,Babysit the depraved. Take care of killers make sure they live they get health care and therapy,food and warmth,Take care of rapists..Tell their story on CSA..Glorify the depravity..excuse it.

This is bullshit.

But still pro criminal rights people are too oblivious about how victims of crimes lives are destroyed by these fucking perpetrators.The victims of crimes are free people because they are innocent, who have trauma because of ONE ASSHOLE and now they can't cope with life anymore.They are basically scarred for life.AND THEY DID NOTHING WRONG! Victims who do not get help can DIE. Some die from exposure on the streets because they can't cope with work or the trauma,they can't cope with life.And if you can't do your job you get fired.Sometimes trauma victims DIE or suffer health and psychological problems that HURT from stress fear or other symptoms and they can't get health care or psych help. Some just fall apart.. they kill themselves. Why? Because we live in a system that does not care about victims suffering and hates them for being "weak".

And people like you are immoral thinking judging a rapist a threat to society and getting rid of him forever is bad.Well pretending a rapist has a soul is bad.It leads to innocent deaths. A rapist repeat offender is not innocent.He is a danger.
People who fear judging the perpetrators of serious crimes are cowards hiding behind a false morality a pacifism that is unjust..

Yet in our culture a criminal in jail is taken care of for the rest of his life if he gets life in prison. Sure he is not free..He lives with his own depraved kind,still getting off playing games and beating up cell mates raping guards and getting free education ..All without shame guilt or any thoughts for what harm he causes he'll fake some regret on parole day however. This is because he lacks a consience..He will not care.The changes he makes is to win a game.A game rooted in abuse of power,violation of consent and abuse of trust.

It sounds to me that your lack of trust for some people is really a fear of these people. And I can understand that, and the anger that follows. But, do be careful with fear and anger, they harm reasoning, especially reasoning in the form of writing.

My concern with the death penalty is not the degree of punishment, it is the certitude for placement of guilt. How certain are we that the person found guilty is, indeed, guilty. That this certitude must be extreme in order to apply the death penalty. Your post omits certitude, jumping to degree of punishment.

I cannot omit certitude. To me, omitting certitude is bullshit.

Your anger seems genuine, but it also seems overwhelmed by some closeness to the topic. I wish you and those you love well. Nothing beats a professional, but I remain just a PM away, if you'd wish. -Fes

I can't find any definition of "vengeance" that specifies taking a life. All of the definitions I have looked at say that vengeance is punishment for a wrong committed.

The DP would fall under this definition, of course. But wouldn't jail/prison also?

It's a tough one. But I agree...vengeance is essentially any punishment for a crime. So where do you draw the line, and who decides? I honestly do not know.

Non existance is not punishing. It's rendering a dangerous person that cannot be trusted harmless forever.The perp feels nothing they are dead.The danger tthe perpretrator causes by his existance is no more.

Anywhere where you can get an education, watch cable TV, work out in a gym, use a phone regularly, and buy Twinkies isn't really punishment.

Is it worse than being a "free" man? Sure. But punishment? Not hardly.

If jail is not punishment

Why do we babysit them?

There are tons of people who are not morally depraved that are dying for lack of health care,Victims of criminals who can't cope with what some asshole in jail fed,clothed,did to them..The victims can't get help, can't keep a job and they suffer.These victims are innocent yet they are wounded and our utilitarian culture has no tolerance for people who can't cope and work and 'be happy' act 'appropriate' pay bills etc.Trauma ruins your capacity for living and coping with your life..

Criminals have no conscience and they are dead in their capacity to feel anything. They are chronically bored,everything is a game because they cannot feel.

So sociopaths they do not feel traumatized from crime the same ways victims with a conscience feel when they are wounded by a criminal's choices to harm them.

That's clear as a bell if that's what you think prison is like.

I have an VERY close friend serving life for murder. So please don't tell me "I don't know."

You've never been. n/t

You think I don't talk to him? :eyes:

and he tells you how it's all twinkies and cable and steak on Wednesday and ham on Sunday. :eyes:

If he's telling you that shit, he's LYING so you won't feel bad. Or his macho ego won't let him admit to you how badly he fucked up so he's still putting on a front.

That IS NOT what prison is like. My husband worked in a prison, we've both worked with numerous inmates, prison is not a fluff camp. NO prison, not even "Camp Cupcake".

Are you denying that inmates can't receive educations in jail? They don't get to work out? They don't get to buy candy and Twinkies if they want? They don't get to watch cable TV? My friend does. He gets free tutoring and is working on a degree in jail. He gets to work out every day of the week and even was hired by the jail for 23 cents an hour, so can buy candies and special food from the jail. He also has a TV with cable he can watch as well. Is it ideal? No, but a punishment? For a felony crime? I don't think so.

He isn't lying to me. My father was a Fire Chief for many years who volunteered his time tutoring inmates in the local jail. He'd say all the time how inmates would say being in jail is better than living outside of jail, especially if you're poor. They'd say you get heat or A/C, shitty food (but still regular meals), you could buy Twinkies and candy when your girlfriend would send you some money, and you had cable TV. It's pretty common knowledge that many inmates have better lives IN jail than they'd have if they were out of jail.

And, I never said it was a "fluff camp," so please don't put words in my mouth. What I said was that it isn't really punishment. When compared to living "free" I suppose for some it is punishment, but it is HARDLY a real punishment. If my kid was being put on time out, I wouldn't send him to go watch cable TV with Twinkies in his hand as punishment.

YOU haven't ever been in jail either, so your opinion on what "your husband" told you is just as valid as mine, coming from my Father and friend who is actually an inmate.

But whatever. I really don't care about this issue enough to argue with you. :eyes:

If you're happier in your fantasyland, by all means stay there. Prison is one big Holiday Inn vacation. Gotcha.

From people who have proven themselves incapable of living in a society without inflicting harm. Punitive words, like penal system, were removed in order to attempt to change the nature of incarceration to rehabilitation. Punitiveness had not worked.

Revenge is punitive, punitive without law, standards or fairness. Just pure raging assault. There is a huge difference between justice and vengeance. The death penalty is vengeance.

Sorry, using the bible to justify an argument you are trying to make is more likely to convince me to take a stance opposite to yours.

First, the Bible says:

Roman 13:1-5 Key verse, 4, (Refering to the earthly gov't) For he is God servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

Second:

Separation of Church and State. I don't want our courts refering to the Bible, neither your section nor mine, for their rulings.

Finally: The DP is not about vengence or justice. It is about taking out the trash.

Finally: The DP is not about vengence or justice. It is about taking out the trash.

Thanks for admitting that it's not about justice. Some of us had the idea that the justice system might ought to be.

It is impossible to even define. What one calls just, another screams is unjust. The idea of it changes with time and societies. It is, basically, a religious concept.

With both LWOP, and with the DP, society has decided that certain humans are trash and not fit to live in human society. LWOP takes out the trash - someday. DP takes out the trash now.

That's no excuse for giving up on the whole enterprise. Or, if it were, why not just go back to frontier justice and lynchings of those we decide are "trash"?

DP takes out the trash now.

This is talk worthy of a tough-guy action movie, not civilized society.

and, I'm guessing there have been fewer life in prison with no paroles who have escaped than people that have been wrongly executed.

and, how do you reconcile the fact that killers of whites are way more likely to be executed than killers of minorities? And, if you're a minority that kills a white, your chances of execution go up even more.

...L-I-F-E, as in staying there until their last breath. And no luxuries either. No, gym, TV, movies, library, etc.

The problem is that there will immediately be those who will then want LWOP reduced to Life, then to 20 years, etc.

Disposable people - who the hell cares if an innocent is killed - It's the greater good!

At least two. One in the famous Norman Mailer episode. And Mailer had no remorse. He said it was worth the risk.

And then there was the famous Willy Horton case.

Whenever someone kills another person what is the first thing the victims family wants to have happened? Kill the person who did so. I would rather keep the person in prison for life and/or work with them to where they can become an active citizen again and change their life instead of cutting them off from life and never fixing what they broke. And in my opinion if you're going to claim to be pro-life why be a hypocrite about it? It always amazes me how so many people who claim on the right to be "pro-life" really turn around and claim to be for the death penalty so fast. *sigh*

it may eliminate a small number of individuals, but it does immeasurable harm to those who approved the killings and carried them out . . . in the US, that's all of us . . .

Especially popular if used against people with dark skin.

eom

maybe he thought it was just

And his links to the Far Right who now overtly control the country were covered up and white-washed.

So now, with McVeigh taking the needle for the team, we'll NEVER get the truth from him.

What a tragedy.

That we are one of the only civilized countries to still have the death penalty AND not to have health care for all? How pathetic.

what's the difference between justice and vengeance really?

Isn't vengeance just an attempt to bring about justice?

: the quality of being just, impartial, or fair b (1) : the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action (2) : conformity to this principle or ideal : RIGHTEOUSNESS c : the quality of conforming to law

vengeance: retribution with a vengeance 1 : with great force or vehemence 2 : to an extreme or excessive degree

revenge: to avenge (as oneself) usually by retaliating in kind or degree
2 : to inflict injury in return for

"retribution"

and "injury in return for"

all sound like measures of justice to me.

also, "conforming to law" currently includes capital punishment

Immediately after 9/11, my father and I talked. We both agreed that what would happen next would be vengence. But the key part of our discussion was something no one wants to talk about, and no one has talked about. Forgiveness. And judging from the response these kinds of discussions get in this forum, I expect to be ignored, flamed, called a nutcase. But the very thing that caused 9/11 is the very thing that we continued to do after 9/11. Aggression.
Forgiveness is more powerful than war.

That's from the book of Genesis. This "god" being seems to be in favor of capital punishment. Thoughts?

Using the bible to justify or condemn government actions isnt what Im used to finding on DU.

is under control. The fact that innocent people are killed for crimes they did not commit - and far more often for minorities than whites - is something that the mainstream US public just doesn't give a damn about. They figure it's not going to affect THEM, so who cares? They've bought into the false statements about the death penalty preventing crime, and so what if a few mistakes are made? Especially if they're black and/or poor?

It is a great shame.

folder - because there is most definitely a divide between who is condemned to death and who isn't. Not only does it not serve as a deterrent, not only are innocent people killed by the state, but the death penalty is disproportionately applied to people who are poor and/or minority.

army. Which leads to the ability to go to war pre-emptively. Which kills civilians.

What Western countries have the death penalty? I think it is just the USA.