The hardcore Right Wing will never believe us on anything--

election fraud, manufactured evidence to justify the war, environmental degradation, budget issues, even evolution.

They have a fundamentally different notion of what constitutes truth, and what constitutes a good reason for believing something. Where we look to evidence, weigh findings, etc., they believe on the basis of authority, on the basis of what they want to be true, and on the basis of what they think will advance their interests. They have the luxury of a certainty in their belief system that overwhelms any contradictory evidence, where we harbor uncertainty. They are more sure of Everything than we are of ANYTHING. You can't even drag them out of their shells to look at anything objectively. Point out the lies that took us to war, and the incontrovertible evidence for those lies, and they will come back at you with homophobic, anti-choice and anti-Clinton ranting. They won't come out onto your ground, but will retreat every time into their paranoid fantasies. Talk to them about global warming or our torture policy and they'll deny what you say and go off on you about the war on Christmas. They accuse us of relativism, but they are the real relativists, presuming their ignorant prejudices to be the equal of rational, informed opinion.

Fundamentally (no pun intended, of course), I believe they know that their system is built on lies, delusions, propaganda and wishful thinking, but they assume all other systems are likewise intellectually corrupt. For example, when I pointed out to one wingnut that the only scientists who argued against global warming were paid for by the energy companies and certain other biased interests, he responded that the whole community of scholars who see global warming as a threat are only clinging to that position because of their own economic interests. Asked what those interests are, he cited their academic jobs. He insisted that they had to adhere to liberal orthodoxy or lose their jobs. Then in the next breath he said that none of the liberal professors agreed with each other about exactly when and how the greenhouse effects would occur anyway, so it was all bullshit. (He did not see, and would not see, the inherent contradiction between asserting that on the one hand, there is a liberal orthodoxy, and on the other, none of the supposed adherents to that orthodoxy can agree with each other).

Just take a drink of this nice kool-aid and all will be okay.....

In the end, winning is the only safety.

And besides, I know for a fact that Big BushCo loves you.

It Works.

First you present your side of any given argument. Then before I respond, I must state back to you what I heard you say. When we are in agreement that I heard and understood and can repeat your argument accurately, then I can finally offer my argument on the issue.

It is a slower process for sure, but it brings logic and reason and truth to the fore.

Right now on Turtle Island (North America) we have only the most tWisted, pRoPaganDized kinds of political debates.

a belief that the other person/people have the ability and the desire to hold on to the truth. A slower process is often much more capable of finding those truths that different people can agree upon.

The hardcore Right Wing is not America. They are a segment of America, but a minority when toted up against the left and moderates.

What the moderates want, IMO, is a politics that once again will respond to their REAL concerns. That includes bread-and-butter issues like jobs, healthcare and a general feeling of powerlessness.

Progressive and liberal positions on those issues can draw many of those moderates if the Democrats ever get enough backbone to actually BE on the side of average people, and address the tough issues that remain unspoken in today's mushy political climate.

However, if you want the rightwingers to 'come out onto your ground' don't you think you need to let them post on this site? It's not fair to accuse them of not being willing to face you when it's YOU that have put up the barriers and, in effect, won't face THEM?

We have enough friction just fighting among ourselves.

It DOES seem, though, that if we were REALLY convinced that our ideas and positions were the right ones, the good way of thinking, we wouldn't be afraid of ANYBODY, and we could stand up to ANY conversation. I mean, what are we so afraid of?

Preaching to the choir is TOO easy.

I'm sure you're familiar with Hannity, Rush, Dildo Reilly, etc. Ever see how they treat progressive guests?

That's the way RW assholes are on here, except they are even dumber (if you can believe it).

Then occasionally they get on here and try to be all nice and polite and understanding while trying to slip their RW horseshit in, then when they are called on it their true colors come through...

I don't watch Hannity or Rush or O'Reilly--sorry.

...

However, open discussion does not mean we allow the rabble to turn us into free republic, the sequel. After all this is a politically progressive entity. I'd welcome open debate with well-turned phrases and snappy reparte, I won't accept propoganda.

Enjoy your stay at DU.

I think you all know that rightwingers aren't allowed to post here in any way, shape, or form. The minute someone even suggests veering from the exact words you say and post, they'll be gone.

I think that's a shame. It won't get new members in the party, and it just makes us look weak. The posts are just WORDS, you know--can't we handle WORDS?

between posting thoughtful discussion and disrupting. Unfortunately, hate-radio has brain soaked the right with so many fact errors, that rightwing posts are riddled with lies. So, rational discussion is ended. The right believes we were bombed by Iraq. The right believes there really are WMD in Iraq. The right believes Bush was not AWOL from his military service. And the right believes Bush won the popular vote in 2000.
And that's just the start. These are people who believing revealing the identity of a CIA agent is "OK" and torture is an American value.
So. How do you have rational discussion with people this dim? It's hopeless. (It's like holding a debate with kindergartners. What's the point?)
And, face it, their intent is not for discourse. It's for disruption.

where there was a post here about how pointless it is to argue with right-wingers as they won't talk but just shout slogans and repeat nonsense.

Then a few posts down was a thread lauding how great it was that Ann Coulter was successfully hooted off the stage at some college so that she wasn't able to complete her speech.

That got a chuckle out of me as it appears in so much of life whether something is funny or horrible just depends on whose ox is being gored at the time.

How about Lucianne.com?

But if they don't let us post there, why do we have to be the same way? Aren't we better, stronger, more principled than that?

I've tried so hard to reasonably explain to many how we are less free, pay more for everything, and how our democracy is dying before our very eyes, but they don't care. They think it's okay because their "side" is "winning." It's so sickening to see so many sell out their country, for their "party." It's all about "winning" to them, and they don't care about anything else. They just don't get it, and they don't want to. I have always been a forgiving person, but patience is beginning to wear thin.

would and have screamed bloody murder if they thought/think cheating occurs on our side. I've heard more than a few of them admit that ** stole the election in '00 and that they are glad it happened. :crazy: They get no respect from me after saying that.

...don't you want to increase the membership of the Dem party? Aren't there people on the fence out there that you'd want to join? Isn't building the party where it's at? How can we do that if you're only willing to talk with people who already think like you do?

with honest people. And every one of them turns into bullshit.

If you let right-wingers onto this site it would become a sewer. Progressives end up spending most of their time getting increasingly enraged as the base level right-wing mind retracts into its fundamental beliefs that effectively, families should starve in the streets if they can't make it on their own; that $30 billion dollars in social safety net is 'stealing' from them while $300 billion dollars on a war is their god-given right to spend even if they have to lie up one side and down the other to do it; and on the myriad of social, societal and economic issues that they have build up fortresses of lies, delusions and inhumanity on that are impervious to reason, let alone debate. Almost no intellectual evolution takes place when 90% of the time you have to fight the fires of nonsensical reactionary spew and its attendant acrimony.

That's exactly what the OP is saying. It's all true and worse.

You come here and want to debate like a human being and you're welcome. You want to talk about increasing the economic advantages of the already advantaged-to-the-point-of-depravity well-off and wealthy at the expense of the middle-class and the poor, or your sanctimony about denying people that you don't agree with fundamental rights, like gay marriage or marijuana legalization or separation of church and state or a hundred other things, then you're going to be ejected like a disease out of a healthy body. Why can't we just live in peace with the cancer cells in our midst? Because they're killing us, that's why.

Progressivism is the only place where reality exists, and reality is broad and deep. There are an infinite number of concerns, considerations and positions within that real world. Debating intransigent nutcases like they had anything real to offer isn't real debate. It is anathema to real debate.

If you want to expend your energy trying to talk sense into fundamentalist liars, there are an innumerable number of places you can go to do that. I go there too, but less and less often.

They could lurk for as long as they wanted. No one is prevented from reading anything here.

When I've had a chance to catch a few wingnut posts before they're deleted, it's usually pretty obvious that the poster hasn't actually read any of the argument or discussion point--they've just picked up on a tagline and then splatted out wingnut talking points, often with obscenity and gratuituous insults.

If they want to listen (or read) fine; if they want to ask questions because they truly don't understand something, fine; if they want to comment on genuine issues they've read about here, I don't think they'll get banned for that. If they just want to throw their monkey poop around, too bad. It's not their house--they should got to LGF or Freep to do that.

It's a shame that so many here feel that way. I thought we were stronger than that...

Free Republic is no different. Civilized discussion is accepted on DU but too many right wingers come on here to disrupt, not to debate.

One thing that annoys me with right-wing posts, here and on other sites, is their general lack of literacy and poor grammar. It speaks volumes.

I read at many sites and, as far as grammar and spelling go, this site has as many offenders--if not more--than the others. I find it's more of an age thing than a political party thing; those of us over 50 had nuns and teachers to rap our knuckles for such offenses--kids today get used to typing as freely as they talk, without those strictures.

are many offenders here at DU but I've been to right-wing sites where the grammar is so bad it's actually hard to understand some posts. You don't get that at Kos.

Another observation:- The humour at left-wing sites is more to my taste - sophisticated.

It's a shame that they're welcome to read our posts as much as they want, and we're not trying to stop them?

Gee, could it be that you know they aren't interested at all in listening to what we have to say, just as you obviously didn't pay any attention at all to what my last post actually said.

I'm not sure why you consider it "weak" to not allow someone to charge in, fling s**t all over, and ignore everything we say while they're doing it.

They believe what they want to believe to validate the made up world they live in. It's based on bigotry and greed. So no amount of truth serum will get them to see the light until they change their views and attitudes to reflect reality and truth.

...and want to bring the fence-sitters into the Democratic party, there IS a way to do that. If you decide you don't need them, well that's fine, too--they'll find a home of their own somewhere.

kool-aid drinkers who won't listen to the truth if Jesus Christ himself descended on a cloud and handed it to them on stone tablets.

they don't want to hear. . .their emotional maturity is at a grade school child's level who covers their ears everytime they get in trouble. They've created this culture of corruption and blame, taken over the government, and produce NOTHING.

They exist on willful ignorance.

...to brand everyone who doesn't parrot your talking points as a 'rightwinger' who you then attribute all those awful characteristics. It's not fair--it's not smart. I know many, many people that hold a variety of Democrat and Republican, Green Party, Independent--even Communist--opinions on various things. Who they vote for is, thusly, a very specific decision based on who is running--not party platforms.

Many of them, I think would vote more to the left, but being hysterically branded as an evil person the minute they demure about some aspect of party ideology has chased them away from the Democratic party. Those are people you could have on your side--if you were more reasonable and less dogmatic.

As it is, they WILL find a home somewhere--but it's a loss to you and your purpose here.

to change our positions, which in the long run have been proven to be the ones that work in the best interest of everyone, to accommodate ideologies that are in conflict with the things we believe to be true. We believe them to be the best way to govern, where everyone is taken care of and that will make a better world for all humanity and all species.

Anything that is exclusionary of those principles isn't acceptable to get votes, IMHO.

But, if such is the case, please don't blame your lack of votes on Diebold, or stealing, or fixes, or stolen elections. Be honest about why you haven't prevailed in some area. It's fine if you don't want any but the most dogmatic in your party--that's your right as an American. But know that that will mean that some red states aren't going to vote blue, some Democratic candidates are not going to have a chance in office--that's the natural consequences of being that particular.

I'm just saying, be honest about why you lose--it will dramatically increase the respect you get.

elections aren't compromised. There is no transparency now and that's what we need. Once we can walk away from the polls and BELIEVE that the opposition candidate actually won, fair and square, then there will be no complaints. Right now there is no way to prove who wins in either party. Everyone should be on board for this from every party.

There's got to be a standard, foolproof system of guaranteeing accurate elections.

but I won't deal with dishonesty and treat it as just a variation of opinion. I've certainly been around the political block long enough to know the difference between "conservative" and "right winger"...and an ideologue who cannot do anything but repeat talking points on command has been programmed not to hear or read anything else. Other voices are already labeled and categorized as irrelevant, a term, by the way, which is commonly used on right wing discussion forums where there are rarely any deviating opinions of any kind allowed.

So the truth of what they have been up to will come out. Most people will be so horrified that the far-Right wackos will be turned into complete outcasts.
And that's what they deserve. I want them to be right there in the worst part of history with the Nazis.

Tammy

...you have described, in a nutshell, the feelings and motivations of the people on your side.

"...the people on your side."??? What "side" are you on, o POSITIVE, winning one? Please, do tell...

And BTW, that's one of the most disgusting avatars in recent memory. (Where can I get one? I really HATE smilie faces. They remind me of MallWart.)

sentiments exactly. And as for our new friend, tis the season, Troll-la-la-la-la...

"they assume all other systems are likewise intellectually corrupt"

Remember when you were a kid and you first discovered that one of your good friends from school had a homelife that was completely different from yours? It was very puzzling. I think we all assume that our 'way' is the norm until we're exposed to a different one. Our ability to redefine our concept of reality is how we mature.

Maturity is scary for the over insulated.

but it comes down to the fact that they are brainless baa-ing sheep. If Rush or the Chimperor told them to stick beans in their ears, most would do it without a second thought. There are no critical faculties there, only a scared desire to not have to think for themselves. Thinking is PAINFUL for these people - they really don't even understand the process of thinking so they take refuge in parroting whatever some Reichwing talking head or Jeebus-wheezing preacher tells them to believe They are incorregible and irredeemable. A substantial die-off of their ilk would improve the world enormously.

"Hydrogen is not the most common element in the universe. STUPIDITY is the most common element in the universe." - Frank Zappa

If you pin them down with facts, they change the subject, throw up a smokescreen, or twist off into some other unrelated, irrational defense of the argument. It's like trying to nail jello to the wall.

If you are very persistent and manage to really pin them down, they get furious and start throwing things at you.

It ain't worth the energy.