Moby says Eminem has blood on his hands

GO MOBY!!! :toast:

Eminem should stfu.

Of course, this person only killed because Eminem told them to. :eyes:

Are people responsible for their actions, or are the records they buy? How many copies of the Marshall Mathers LP didn't lead to murders?

Moby is an idiot, and he is the Britney Spears of electronic music.

But that aside, what's the difference between Eminem's hateful lyrics, and say, those of any of the white-power bands? Hey, they're just words, right?

You sound like the Christian Coalition when you knock the First Amendment because you don't like what's being said.

lyrics. Moby also has a right to free speech does he not?

Crime is crime, and speech is speech. Short of inciting a riot, speech is free.

I'm disagreeing with Moby's assessment, because accusing someone of murder because they wrote a song about murder is fucking dumb.

You don't go accusing horror film directors of having blood on their hands, do you? Or how about Chuck Norris or Jean Claude Van-Damme, Bruce Willis, Sylvester Stallone, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Vin Diesel, etc?

And I think Moby's a tool.

:)

the effect of hate speech is a quite dangerous, actually.

And that is enough. The First Amendment is not something you can apply to speech only when you agree with it. Saying something mean and hateful is not a crime, and singing a fictional song is certainly not a crime.

The commentary did not suggest that. The statements are about a culture that excuses and promotes the hatred of certain groups of people. We would not defend his lyrics if they were about murdering blacks, jews, etc. which is the point.

I'm just pointing out that Moby is equating making a record with killing somebody, and I think it's silly.

would they?

Saying something on a record does not equal killing somebody.

How hard is that to understand?

of a specific group, on a record, and glorifying said record in our society is a contributing factor in violence against said group(s.)

"Now, Moby is telling Eminem and anyone who promotes his 'misogynistic' music: 'you have blood on your hands.'"

Who appointed Moby judge and jury?

;)

:D

and violence don't find it "dumb" however. Domestic assault/murder, rape, homophobia are serious problems in our society and should be taken very seriously IMHO.

Peace

Peace.

committed by William Joseph Simmons:

...and one of the most successful organizers of the KKK, who did a bit more than just make a movie, even if he never tied a noose himself. Your sense of proportion is completely out of whack with this analogy. Simmons is better compared to Manson than Eminem, and to suggest otherwise is preposterous.

groups ok?

Re-read everything but the word "artist," which you apparently didn't get past, and you'll have my opinion on the matter.

Regardless of the avenue - racism, misogyny, homophobia is wrong and it's dangerous.

And I don't think music should be illegal for the record. Even hateful music. But, I will speak out against it.

Simply expressing these things in a song, however, does not make them right or cause others to embrace them. I would much rather that racists et al be open about their beliefs so that we can identify them. Preventing them from saying these things is more dangerous than allowing them to. Would you prefer the misogynist you can see from a distance, or the one you don't identify until you're married and have children? Preventing people to talk honestly about their beliefs, right or wrong, does not prevent those beliefs. The empirical evidence is to the contrary.

Individuals are responsible for their actions, not the music they listen to, the books they read, the games they play, or the people they associate with.

it is dangerous/ignorant to promote and glorify a culture which embraces the hatred of a specific group of people. Eminem has written numerous songs about murdering his wife, and dedicated them to her. He's written about raping women, uses terms like bitch, ho, slut, and we have liberals who defend him AND give him money? WTF?!

When DU discussed the music of these girls no one came to their defense. Hate was labeled as hate, not "art."



Let's contrast the lyrics of these hateful children with Eminem:

PrussianBlue lyrics:

Children are playing, we have won. Victory is ours, the war is finally done. Our people’s dedication is now complete, our enemies have finally been beat. The warriors are singing in Valhalla and in their homes. Our people are no longer afraid to walk lone.

We have won , we are done Victory is ours , VICTORY !!! We have won , we are done Victory is ours , VICTORY!!! Speak the Truth!

http://www.prussianblue.net/lyrics.htm#victory

Eminem lyrics:

* Put your hands down, b*tch, I ain't gon' shoot you
I'ma pull YOU to this bullet and put it through you
(from Kill You)

* Don't you get it b*tch, no one can hear you?
Now shut the f*ck up and get what's comin to you
You were supposed to love me
NOW BLEED! B*TCH BLEED!
(from Kim)

* My words are like a dagger with a jagged edge
That'll stab you in the head whether you're a fag or lez
(from Criminal)

* I make fight music for high school kids
I put lives at risk when I drive like this
I put wives at risk with a knife like this
(from Who Knew)

* B*tch, please - you must have a mental disease
Assume the position and get back down on your knees - c'mon
(from B*tch Please II)

Lyrics compliments of NOW - http://www.now.org/press/02-01/02-05-01.html

Most people identify PrussianBlue as hate without batting an eyelash, no back peddling, no, "well it's just "art" no, "I listen to their music and it's not harmful."

Bottom line, pop culture has a tangible influence on our society, especially in regard to children, and Eminem is helping to shape the minds of youth with lyrics such as these:

"My words are like a dagger with a jagged edge
That’ll stab you in the head
Whether you’re a fag or lez
Or the homosex, hermaph, or a trans-a-vest
Pants or dress—hate fags? The answer’s ‘yes’"

as well as the lyrics I noted above.

I don't profess his songs should be "banned," but I don't think we should defend them or him as a harmless misunderstood artist.

From Jackson Katz: " ... one of the most damaging aspects of Eminem's violent misogyny and homophobia is how normal and matter-of-fact this violence comes to seem. Rapping and joking about sex crimes have the effect of desensitizing people to the real pain and trauma suffered by victims and their loved ones. The process of desensitization to violence through repeated exposure in the media has been studied for decades. Among the effects: young men who have watched/listened to excessive amounts of fictionalized portrayals of men's violence against women in mainstream media and pornography have been shown to be more callous toward victims, less likely to believe their accounts of victimization, more willing to believe they were "asking for it," and less likely to intervene in instances of "real-life" violence.

Let us not forget that the culture in which Eminem has become a huge star is in the midst of an ongoing crisis of men's violence against women. In the U.S., rates of rape, sexual assault, battering, teen relationship violence and stalking have been shockingly high for decades, far exceeding rates in comparable western societies. Sadly, millions of American girls and women have been assaulted by American boys and men. Thousands of gays each year are bashed and harassed by young men. For these victims, this is not an academic debate about the differences between literalist and satirical art. It hits closer to home. ~

http://www.jacksonkatz.com/eminem2.html

For those who are saying Eminem doesn't really "feel this way" below are HIS own words.

« My thoughts are so fucking evil when I’m writing shit, if I’m mad at my girl, I’m gonna write the most misogynistic fucking rhyme in the world. It’s not how I feel in general, it’s how I feel at the moment ».

I would imagine most people who kill their partners are "feeling angry in the moment?"

Moby had a solid point with his provocative statement. Eminem is not in danger of incarceration so you needn't worry, but he is influencing youth and making the hate/rape/murder/abuse of various groups of people more "palatable" to many. And as such - we should all "worry."

Or is it a significant number of your friends? Co-workers? People on your block? Distant out-of-town relatives?

The only people who are driven to action by lyrics are those who already hold them, and who are already inclined to act in such a manner. For everyone else, they do nothing but outrage, and stand as a NEGATIVE example. The idea that saying these things publicly somehow hypnotizes a significant number of people into believing them and/or acting on them is horseshit.

If you want to do some real good, campaign for automobile safety. Driving in America today is far more dangerous than all the obnoxious, hateful lyrics in popular and not-so-popular culture combined.

Propaganda is ineffective? Societal influence has no bearing on actions/beliefs?

Regarding your hypnosis straw man - I never asserted that one will be "hypnotized" by music, what I've said is that POPULAR CULTURE has an influence on youth/society.

There is no comparison between nazi propaganda and Eminem lyrics. You are comparing Godzilla to a gecko. If you cannot or will not make that distinction, that's your right. But you aren't going to be able to address this subject honestly and intelligently until you do.

:hi:

I would venture to guess that the number of Americans who buy "M's" albums - and/or watched his white wash in 8 mile, far surpass the entire population of Nazi Germany during WW2.

There is no comparison between the lyrics of a popular singer and nazi propaganda. There are also quite a few differences between a post WWI Germany and the 21st century MTV audience. Your assertion is so absurd, I am at a loss as to how to address it. Let me know when you're ready to have a rational discussion based in reality.

and continue to move the goal posts.

Again, nice try.

Let me know when you'd like to have a discussion based upon the results of numerous studies which back up my assertion - creating a culture of acceptance toward the hatred of any group - is dangerous.

...towards the hatred of any group. While I don't require you to agree with me, it would help your argument immensely to refrain from gross exaggeration and unsupportable assertions in the face of rational, valid argument. Or, just act cocky and smug, you know you're right despite what I have to say, right?

When you do I will consider YOUR argument supported and rational.

:hi:

And I wanted to smack the little putz.

And maybe answer the question. I'll try again: Why might one consider RaHoWa's lyrics to be hate speech, but not Eminem's "My words are like a dagger with a jagged edge/That'll stab you in the head/whether you're a fag or lez."

Why not?

If it's all a game, for show, reflecting reality, whatever...how come he doesn't use the n-word? It's not like other rappers don't use it.

Hmm. Maybe it's because he knows that words have power?

Edit: And I think the whole concept of hate speech is stupid, so your straw man doesn't apply to me.

In her book Excitable Speech: The Politics of the Performative

She says..

"What happens when we seek recourse to the state to regulate such speech? In particular, how is the regulatory power of the state enhanced through such an appeal? This is, perhaps, a familiar argument that I hope to make in a less than familiar way. My concern is not only with the protection of civil liberties against the incursion of the state, but with the peculiar discursive power given to the state through the process of legal redress.

I would like to suggest a formulation for the problem that might seem paradoxical, but that I think, even in its hyperbolic mode, might shed some light on the problem that regulating hate speech poses. That formulation is this: the state produces hate speech, and by this I do not mean that the state is accountable for the various slurs, epithets, and forms of invective that currently circulate throughout the population; I mean only that the category cannot exist without the state's ratification, and this power of the state's judicial language to establish and maintain the domain of what will be publicly speakable suggests that the state plays much more than a limiting function in such decisions; in fact, the state actively produces the domain of publicly acceptable speech, demarcating the line between the domains of the speakable and the unspeakable, and retaining the power to make and sustain that consequential line of demarcation. The inflated and efficacious utterance attributed to hate speech in some of the politicized contexts discussed above is itself modeled on the speech of a sovereign state, understood as a sovereign speech act, a speech act with the power to do what it says. This sovereign power is attributed to hate speech when it is said to deprive us of rights and liberties. The power attributed to hate speech is a power of absolute and efficacious agency--performativity and transitivity at once (it does what it says and it does what it says it will do to the one addressed by the speech). This power of legal language is that to which we refer when we call upon the state to effect the regulation of offensive speech. The problem, then, is not that the force of the sovereign performative is wrong, but when used by citizens it is wrong, and when the state intervenes with its citizens, the force of the performative is, in these contexts, right." Critical Inquiry

Her book, written from the perspective of a feminist/queer theorist, discusses the legal rhetorics of hate speech in pornography, cross burning, and LGBT issues. Her work is not to everyone's taste, to be sure, but it will challenge preconceived ideas about rules concerning "hate speech."

Different strokes, I guess.

I'd still like to know how you can conclude that Eminem's hateful words are all right, and (I'm assuming you conclude) that white-power rock band lyrics aren't.

Not saying you can't necessarily hold these two views simultaneously. I'm just curious how you manage it.

I don't care what white power rock bands say either. Stupid, mean, hateful lyrics are everywhere in pop and underground culture. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

But don't go trying to tell me that these artists have blood on their hands because they have deranged fans. The mere fact that they cater to a hateful demographic does not make them complicit in the crimes of that demographic. It just makes them opportunistic assholes.

The closest I've come to saying anything of the sort is that IMO he should apologize for the anti-gay and mysoginistic lyrics.

(And sorry for assuming wrongly.)

Moby doesn't like Eminem because Eminem has made fun of him and one obviously crazed Eminem fan attacked Moby. But to say that Eminem is responsible for the actions of his deranged fans is silly. That is what Moby is saying, and I think it's pathetic.

Eminem couldn't get away with things as easily if the victims in his songs were ethnic minorities, for example.

Society on the whole seems to be all right with putting down women and homosexuals in songs. (And it's not just in rap music.) For me, I guess, the concern is not so much that it's acceptable to treat these groups that way. (Although I definitely have problems with it.)

I'm more concerned that while putting down some groups is acceptable, for other groups it's completely taboo. There's a kind of hypocrisy in there.

I don't think either is acceptable, and am more than willing to condemn the sentiment of Eminem's music.

I just don't think he is responsible for a deranged fan's actions...if Eminem didn't influence this nut, someone else would have.

There's plenty of violent pop culture out there for people to use to justify their worst exploits.

Someone killed "because of the Matrix," too, but since the Wachowskis didn't dis "fags," no one takes it seriously.

It's a simile, likening his words to a knife, not a call for people to stab GLBTs in the head for real. In fact, it's a true statement. This is evidenced by the uproar in the gay and lesbian community, as they have reacted as if it were an actual attack or incitement of actual violence.

This is nothing like the actual calls for violence against minorities by white supremacist hate bands. Frankly, even those are merely lyrics.

The person committing the violence is the one responsible for it, not the things they surround themselves with.

is stupid, I'm now a fan of Eminem and think everything he does is great.

:eyes:

I don't own any Eminem albums, and I think he's a net negative on society. But I certainly don't think he has any blood on his hands because he has said stupid, mean, and obnoxious things.

Saying stupid, mean, and obnoxious things is not the same as murdering someone, but Moby apparently doesn't understand that.

gay men call each other fags all the time, call themselves fags too. To chastize someone for their word choice is to grasp at straws. To claim intent portrayed in a song is the writer's actual intent is to risk some very thin ice, and falling through. But what do I know? I'm just a dyke.

As a law student, I committed to honoring the Constitution and its amendments.

There's no question Eminem enjoys the right of free speech, as do we all, subject to some recognized constraints.

But there is nothing wrong with someone calling attention to the ramifications of encouraging certain behavior.

:toast:

One of the genres of music I like is heavy metal. However, despite the fact that some of my favorite songs are about killing and death, I have no desire to imitate them in real life. Only a minority few are fucked up enough to imitate what they see in TV/movies or hear on the radio.

That certainly isn't cause to ban it all. People do have control over themselves. And Eminem certainly isn't an anomaly. The best way to hurt Eminem is to ignore him.

On another note, it's time Eminem and Moby finally hooked up. I'm tired of their bitchfests.

Historically, music has always been an outlet for the politics of the day. Everyone was all up in arms about the anti-gay theme of his music but not long after the right wingers were waging their own war against gays. The same people who denounced Eminem were the same ones who rallied for anti-gay legislation. Seems to me Eminem had the pulse of society correctly.

Moby is an idiot (in this case). Saying Eminem was to blame is saying that John Lennon's killer's book's author is too blame. You will notice I strung out the ownership on purpose. To say that someone elses actions cause you to act is saying you are very weak minded.

...did it also lead to a rash of women killing their asshole husbands?

:)

Sometimes reading these threads is like that little head-wall banging smilie.

This question is RESOLVABLE.

Eminem is NOT responsible for anyone's death. What he IS responsible for is creating, entirely unintentionally, a sub-culture in which impressionable, stupid people fail to grasp his meaning with, in this case, FATAL CONSEQUENCES. And he might wish to do something about that. Perhaps a simple statement to the effect that he doesn't think killing people and sticking them in the trunk of your car is IN FACT a good thing, stupid people, THAT WOULD BE MOVIES. He'd probaly do quite a good track out of it, talented little nipper that he is. I do not think, however, that metaphorically placing his hands on his hips and saying "ner ner *I* don't care" is the really the appropriate response... :gr:

THAT BEING SAID, Moby should butt out. Who the hell's HE to tell Eminem what to do?

This is not a case of right versus right, it's a case of silly prima donna versus silly prima donna.

GAH.

'Nuf said by the infant rodent.

clearly knows the words to Stan by heart. It should be clear to him that Eminem does not condone killing one's significant other. And yet, he did it anyway. What a fucking numbskull.

It would make more sense if it was just some impressionable idiot. This guy had to be a real fan. Real fans would never do such a thing.

I'm stunned Eminem thinks that inciting violence and murder is FUNNY. Well, our family doesn't buy his products, and right now that makes me very happy.

Are you going to go after Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger for inspiring Bush to kill people too?

:eyes:

And I'm glad Moby spoke up.

Eminem isn't trying to draw attention to social injustice with his words; he is making millions off of reaching out in anger to the angry.

Eminem needs to take responsibility for what he sells.

So does Arnold; so does Sly.

These people are absolutely taking advantage of violent and angry people, and it is risky behavior. It's certainly troubling.

I just don't think it is the same as killing someone.

About all I can say is that I don't watch Arnold's or Sly's movies, and I don't buy Eminem's music. Life is WAY too short.

come out in the last five years.

"Mosh"

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America
And to the Republic for which it stands
One nation under God
Indivisible...
It feels so good to be back..

I scrutinize every word, memorize every line
I spit it once, refuel and re-energize and rewind
I give sight to the blind, my insight through the mind
I exercise my right to express when I feel it's time
It's just all in your mind, what you interpret it as
I say to fight, you take it as I'mma whip someone's ass
If you don't understand, don't even bother to ask
A father who has grown up with a fatherless past
Who has blown up now to rap phenomenon that has
Or at least shows no difficulty multi-task
And in juggling both perhaps mastered his craft
Slash entrepreneur who has helped launch a few more rap acts
Who's had a few obstacles thrown his way through the last half
Of his career typical manure moving past that
Mr. kisses ass crack, he's a class act
Rubber band man, yea he just snaps back


Come along follow me as I lead through the darkness
As I provide just enough spark that we need to proceed
Carry on, give me hope, give me strength
Come with me and I won't steer you wrong
Put your faith and your trust as I guide us through the fog
To the light at the end of the tunnel
We gonna fight, we gonna charge, we gonna stomp, we gonna march
Through the swamp, we gonna mosh through the marsh
Take us right through the doors (c'mon)

All the people up top on the side and the middle
Come together lets all bomb and swamp just a little
Just let it gradually build from the front to the back
All you can see is a sea of people some white and some black
Don't matter what color, all that matters we gathered together
To celebrate for the same cause don't matter the weather
If it rains let it rain, yea the wetter the better
They ain't gonna stop us they can't, we stronger now more than ever
They tell us no we say yea, they tell us stop we say go
Rebel with a rebel yell, raise hell we gonna let em know
Stomp, push, shove, mush, Fuck Bush, until they bring our troops home (c'mon)



Imagine it pouring, it's raining down on us
Mosh pits outside the oval office
Someone's tryina tell us something,
Maybe this is god just sayin' we're responsible
For this monster, this coward,
That we have empowered
This is Bin Laden, look at his head noddin'
How could we allow something like this without pumping our fists
Now this is our final hour
Let me be the voice in your strength and your choice
Let me simplify the rhyme just to amplify the noise
Try to amplify the times it, and multiply by six...
Teen million people, Are equal at this high pitch
Maybe we can reach alqueda through my speech
Let the president answer a higher anarchy
Strap him with an Ak-47, let him go, fight his own war
Let him impress daddy that way
No more blood for oil, we got our own battles to fight on our own soil
No more psychological warfare, to trick us to thinking that we ain't loyal
If we don't serve our own country, we're patronizing a hero
Look in his eyes its all lies
The stars and stripes, they've been swiped, washed out and wiped
And replaced with his own face, Mosh now or die
If I get sniped tonight you know why,
Cause I told you to fight.



And as we proceed,
To Mosh through this desert storm,
In these closing statements, if they should argue
Let us beg to differ
As we set aside our differences
And assemble our own army
To disarm this Weapon of Mass Destruction
That we call our President, for the present
And Mosh for the future of our next generation
To speak and be heard
Mr. President, Mr. Senator
Do you guy's hear us...hear us... (Hailie)

I praised his "MOSH" song, and I condemn many others.

He's done something I wish other musicians would do, but haven't.

"George W Bush is a nut job. An out of touch, inept, ill-informed, nut job." ~ Moby

http://www.femalefirst.co.uk/celebrity/66112004.htm

They have a contempt for Bush in common.

I wish more musicians would. It's been five years. You would think we would have a whole generation of anti-Bush songs out by now. God knows there's plenty of material out there.

Moby is a pretentious clown.

unless they personally commit one? If Eminem has a right to sing about his hatred of women/gays, we certainly have a right/responsibility to comment on it. After all those that defend EM say he's only trying to provoke thought, correct?

NOW made a statement about his music as well:

http://www.now.org/press/02-01/02-05-01.html

What does the KKK have to do with this?

And the KKK actually murdered people.

Contributing to a culture of hatred toward ANY group is not something to be dismissive about.

But equating making a record with murder? That's dumb, any way you slice it. And it makes you sound foolish when you defend Moby's hyperbole. It is not the same thing.

I saw them as a commentary on our society, and the fact that it's "OK" to promote murdering gays/women.

And I think it's ridiculous.

murder - and I'd be hard pressed to find a liberal who would say that's ridiculous.

See the difference?

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/music/article.adp?id=20051202104909990009&cid=918

An Eminem impersonator who beat a woman to death and stuffed her body in a suitcase - a scene reminiscent of the rapper's "Stan" video - is facing life in prison.

Christopher Duncan, 21, has the same hair color, style and tattoos as the rapper. Duncan pleaded guilty Thursday to killing Jagdip Najran, 26, a law student and aspiring singer.

They met at a karaoke bar last year, where Najran was smitten after watching Duncan perform, a prosecutor said. Duncan took Najran back to his apartment and beat her over the head with an iron baseball bat until she fell unconscious, then stuffed her body into a suitcase.

Medical experts testified she stayed alive for at least an hour after being struck. Duncan reportedly told police he was high on Ecstasy and LSD at the time.

The KKK has many members who have not committed murder, it does not mean that the culture of hate they promote is not dangerous.

Eminem's fans argue that his raps about raping, torturing, and murdering women are not meant to be taken literally. "Just because we listen to the music doesn't mean we're gonna go out and rape and murder women. We know it's just a song." But thoughtful critics of Eminem do not make the argument that the clear and present danger of his lyrics lie in the possibility that some unstable young man will go out and imitate in real life what the artist is rapping about. (While possible, this is highly unlikely.)

Not quite as unlikely as Mr. Katz thought.

http://www.jacksonkatz.com/eminem.html

My personal opinion does not go as far as Moby, however he's not entirely off the mark.

for fear that some maniac will actually do them.

You'd have no cop shows, no murder mysteries, no nothing.

I did not indicate that Eminem should not be able to continue promoting hate. I simply advocate being aware of and discussing his music and the effect it has on society. To pretend that pop culture has no influence is dangerous in cases such as this.


http://www.jacksonkatz.com/eminem.html

... one of the most damaging aspects of Eminem's violent misogyny and homophobia is how normal and matter-of-fact this violence comes to seem. Rapping and joking about sex crimes has the effect of desensitizing people to the real pain and trauma suffered by victims and their loved ones. The process of desensitization to violence through repeated exposure in the media has been studied for decades. Among the effects: young men who have watched/listened to excessive amounts of fictionalized portrayals of men's violence against women in mainstream media and pornography have been shown to be more callous toward victims, less likely to believe their accounts of victimization, more willing to believe they were "asking for it," and less likely to intervene in instances of "real-life" violence.

The article closes:

What this process makes painfully clear is the crying need for more media literacy education in the schools. Young people need to be given analytic tools to understand the ways in which they are being manipulated by a consumer culture that doesn't care about them or their struggles to lead rewarding lives, free from abuse and violence. Wealthy corporations in the consumer culture, including the record companies that have profited handsomely from Eminem, only care about young people's money. To them, it's all about the Benjamins (the money). The rest of us who care about kids need to do a better job of making that clear.


I love that article, wish I'd stumbled on it sooner. It pretty much lays out this discussion.

violence in entertainment has a negative effect on society. But I also believe that people have to be held responsible for their actions. Nobody should be able to say, "Rap made me do it," and be taken seriously.

I don't think the criminal in question is using the "rap" defense, however.

Either you can express opinions or you can't. Is Jerry Seinfeld guilty of hate speech when he complains about airplane peanuts?

I hate telemarketers. Does that put me on the level of the Ku Klux Klan, who hate non-whites?

"Matthew Shepard has been in hell for 2619 days" from www.godhatesfags.com. I find that hateful, and the name of the website indicates I'm not far off the mark.

I don't see how Seinfelds peanut routine compares. Call me wacky.

You think it's only hate speech if you are talking about specific groups of people, like gays, blacks, etc.

How specific do you want to get? Half of DU engages in 'hate speech' regarding Republicans. I'm not holding my breath waiting for your condemnation of DU.

I believe in Eminem's right to say what he chooses, and Moby's right to condemn him for it.

:)

The issue of freedom of speech is a prickly one. All I can do is thank the Founding Fathers for the 1st Amendment, that little bit of genius that has made life a little better in the long run. As far as holding the KKK responsible for the propaganda they put out, the courts have ruled it is protected free speech except in certain cases where it explicitly calls for violent actions against individuals or crimes. At least, that's my understanding of how the courts sit on the matter. It's been a while since I looked at the rules and exceptions with regards to the 1st Amendment.

If the KKK put out propaganda about how evil and terrible the Blacks and the Jews are or if Eminem puts out material about how women are liars and gold diggers, the simple fact is nothing really can be done except to condemn their rhetoric, but if anybody here advocates using the law to forcefully curb what people can say, I'm going to have to stand up and fight against it in favor of the 1st Amendment.

No one here would condemn the statements of MOBY if he had critiqued the KKK, correct? That further drives home his point - as far as I'm concerned.

Example. I've replaced M and M's lyrics with racist ones below.

ORIGINAL LYRICS

* Put your hands down, b*tch, I ain't gon' shoot you
I'ma pull YOU to this bullet and put it through you
(from Kill You)

* Don't you get it b*tch, no one can hear you?
Now shut the f*ck up and get what's comin to you
You were supposed to love me
NOW BLEED! B*TCH BLEED!
(from Kim)

* My words are like a dagger with a jagged edge
That'll stab you in the head whether you're a fag or lez
(from Criminal)

* I make fight music for high school kids
I put lives at risk when I drive like this
I put wives at risk with a knife like this
(from Who Knew)

* B*tch, please - you must have a mental disease
Assume the position and get back down on your knees - c'mon
(from B*tch Please II)

NEW LYRICS

* Put your hands down, j*wboy, I ain't gon' shoot you
I'ma pull YOU to this bullet and put it through you
(from Kill You)

* Don't you get it n*gger, no one can hear you?
Now shut the f*ck up and get what's comin to you
You were supposed to serve me
NOW BLEED! N BLEED!
(from Kim)

* My words are like a dagger with a jagged edge
That'll stab you in the head whether you're a ch*nk or sp*ck
(from Criminal)

* I make fight music for high school kids
I put lives at risk when I drive like this
I put (fill in the blank) at risk with a knife like this
(from Who Knew)

I threw out the point because of the concern we'd have folks here who would try and curb free speech rights because of issues such as this. We already see it enough in the gungeon with people advocating eliminating the 2nd Amendment, but I digress.

But they will comment when free speech included hate speech.

The song is actually making fun of the people who think that he has any power to incite anything, and placing the responsibility instead on the PARENTS of these kids for not being involved enough to teach their kids right from wrong.

So who's bringin the guns in this country? (Hmm?)
I couldn't sneak a plastic pellet gun through customs over in
London
And last week, I seen a Schwarzeneggar movie
where he's shootin all sorts of these motherfuckers with a uzi
I sees three little kids, up in the front row,
screamin "Go," with their 17-year-old Uncle
I'm like, "Guidance - ain't they got the same moms and dads
who got mad when I asked if they liked violence?"
And told me that my tape taught 'em to swear
What about the make-up you allow your 12-year-old daughter to
wear? (Hmm?)

and, same song:

How many retards'll listen to me
and run up in the school shootin when they're pissed at a
teach-er, her, him, is it you is it them?
"Wasn't me, Slim Shady said to do it again!"
Damn! How much damage can you do with a pen?
Man I'm just as fucked up as you woulda been
if you woulda been, in my shoes, who woulda thought
Slim Shady would be somethin that you woulda bought
that woulda made you get a gun and shoot at a cop
I just said it - I ain't know if you'd do it or not

Not until he apologizes for anti-gay and mysoginistic lyrics. Many may have forgotten, but I haven't.

n/t

Nothing more. Nothing less.

Eminem only released that video/song to cash-in.

He was trying to motivate young people to vote against Bush. He was giving them something other than the "bling bling" or whatever it is they listen to nowadays.

I'm not defending his homophobic, misogynist lyrics or actions, but I do acknowledge he is one of the most talented writers out there.

I guess it's all subjective, but to me is not a good writer either...

Singing songs about vicadin, homosexuals, and killing your ex girlfriend, does not make you a poet, IMO.

So we leave it at that.

I'm sure I like more than a few things other people wouldn't. :)

Not trying to start a flame war. :)

When he does that, he's just playing a character. :sarcasm:

Someone actually used that excuse on me when I was bitching about his not having renounced his anti-gay raps. And THEN they had the nerve to also say that he played a redeemed CHARACTER (or some such) in 8 Mile, so it was somehow all good.

:eyes:

of American life--politics included. Even here at a supposedly liberal community site. Challenge it at your peril.

I guess I'm only insulting his 'character' then? ;)

Eminem's fault.:eyes:

His music is for many people.Too much for others.
Either one feels it or they don't, it is that simple.
Helps me vent so I can get back to business.

If Eminem does, then so do the majority of movie makers and actors in Hollywood. Eminem didn't create the culture, he's just the only one who has the guts to tell people what the US culture really is. If Moby doesn't get it, that's on Moby, not Eminem.

that he contributes to it. He also appears dumbfounded that such attitudes have wide spread support. I don't know why the focus is on Eminem so much, but his lyrics have certainly been provocative.

I think Eminem is extremely talented btw.

Because obviously one person can't have done it alone. Yes, his lyrics have been provocative, but so has Quentin Tarantino. Why doesn't he get lamblasted over Reservoir Dogs? The worst piece of trash I think I've ever seen, but I'd never say he had blood on his hands because of it. He's just telling a story in a way that hadn't been previously. Same as Eminem.

his films.

If QT made movies about murdering women/gays repeatedly, I would venture to guess he'd not be glorified as a great artist?

They both tell stories of people with a murderous mindset. That doesn't equate to promoting anything.

at women and gays. That's the issue I have with him.

Who is neither gay or female.....

I guess that evens things out a bit. ;)

are written in jest to respond to people who like to say that it's Dr. Dre that's the sole reason Eminem sounds as he does. That he in effect is treating Eminem as a puppet.

What do ya make of that?

So it's better to not talk about that murderous mindset, which really permeates and inflicts untold damage on society; but go ahead and talk about murderous criminal mindsets that are unlikely to hurt anybody but other criminals. :crazy:

:shrug:

You think it's okay to "promote" the murdering of some people, ala Quentin Tarantino. But not others. If you only object to "promoting" murdering women and gays.

Or maybe, you just don't want to deal with the reality of how some people really think, or even how relationships spiral out of control, or what insanity actually sounds like. Or anything that doesn't fit into a sanitized pc world.

I think you know the difference between QT who actually empowers women in some of his roles vs. Eminem and his promotion of misogyny and homophobia don't you?

NOW knows the difference:

http://www.now.org/press/02-01/02-05-01.html

Jackson Katz also knows the difference:

http://www.jacksonkatz.com/eminem.html

In fact, he predicted that an unstable fan might carry out a murder.

Eminem's fans argue that his raps about raping, torturing, and murdering women are not meant to be taken literally. "Just because we listen to the music doesn't mean we're gonna go out and rape and murder women. We know it's just a song." But thoughtful critics of Eminem do not make the argument that the clear and present danger of his lyrics lie in the possibility that some unstable young man will go out and imitate in real life what the artist is rapping about. (While possible, this is highly unlikely.)

Guess it was not so unlikely after all.

More from JK:

http://www.jacksonkatz.com/eminem2.html

Domestic violence groups know the difference:

http://www.dvmillennium.org/Article8.htm

As does GLADD:

'Eminem's defence of his lyrics is that he makes use of fictional characters who only speak their mind. We don't think that's a viable defence for homophobia,' says Steve Spurgeon, Director of Communications for Glaad, the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation. ' contains the most blatantly offensive homophobic lyrics we have ever heard. Ever. We can't bring ourselves to condone it merely on his right to self-expression.'

Glaad's position on Eminem is unusual - the organisation rarely advocates censorship. Eminem's critics, however, cite his lionisation as the first white rapper to transcend race in the music sub-genre. 'He's a role model for teenagers,' continues Spurgeon. 'His opinions have to be questioned.'

'Some bitch asked for my autograph

I called her a whore, spit in her face and laughed...

All bitches is ho's, even my stinkin'-ass Mom'

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,6903,333436,00.html

None of these organizations take issue with Tarantino? Imagine that?!

Honestly, I really don't care what any group says about it. It wouldn't be the first time some group went into a tailspin because they chose to misinterpret someone's words or actions.

Again, is it acceptable to "promote" the murder of one group of people just because they're distasteful, like criminals??? Or is telling people's stories not the same thing as promoting a particular course of action?

Again, are media images and pop culture (directed at our youth) influential on our society or not?

Jackson Katz a male feminist who "thinks for himself" as well.

http://www.jacksonkatz.com/eminem2.html

Let me know your thoughts on the article ok?

I honestly do not give a shit what somebody else says. I don't even read pundit's columns very often. It's mostly swill.

Yep, there's a problem with hatred and denigration of groups of people in this country. But it isn't Eminem's fault and not talking about it isn't going to make it any better.

That doesn't mean one should not take issue with his hatred of gays. If my child were exposed to this on a regular basis, I would have an issue.

http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html

Perhaps this is where "Eminem" get's HIS material? ;)

Eminem isn't even a real person, and no one has ever shown Marshall Mathers believes what he writes as Eminem lyrics. Indeed his Slim Shady lyrics would indicate he doesn't. Slim Shady being his other persona. Fred Phelps actually promotes something, Marshall Mathers is just telling people how certain people think and what happens in places most people don't care to think about. And he's doing it with a made up persona. Saying Eminem is or isn't something is like saying Batman is or isn't something as if he were a real person.

As for Fred Phelps, his other persona is a loving Christian family man.

Marshall Mathers has are pretty well split, Eminem isn't more influential as far as being listened to, just gets more ink. Also among the biggest Eminem hits is Lose Yourself, which has nothing to do with anything but Marshall working his way up in the local rap scene and has for its chorus a very positive tone. And then there's Just Lose It. Which is a freakin dance song. Sure some people don't care for its swipes at Michael Jackson, but then some people don't care for swipes at Ford Pintos.

So that makes Eminem the bad guy and not Fred Phelps???

:eyes:

I didn't say you said that. So, never mind.

he's just a persona that is a man who comes from some unstated backround that has him think like that. It is ugly and violent, but that's the point. Such people do exist. Marshall Mathers isn't one of them. But he's seen them, heard them, and how better to get a subject out in the open then to show it in all its gorey detail? Funny how Elton John had no problem doing that duet. He gets it that Eminem is just a persona, Marshall Mathers is the actual man. Eminem only exists in songs and videos.

Another "you don't get it" argument. *yawn*

he's a fictitious persona. Created using what's observed to show what is, granted with Ali G it's for comedic value and with Eminem it's for face in the gutter shock value, but it's the same thing. Marshall Mathers grew up around the people he bases Eminem on, and the people that have to deal with such people. Who no one ever seems very concerned with helping. Also no one much ever cares for where the monsters come from or what creates them. If people don't like Eminem or the lyrics Marshall rights for that persona, the persona isn't the thing to go after, neiter is Marshall Mathers himself. Thing to go after all those people and situations that are in the lyrics, and those that aren't, that without there'd be no basis for Eminem to be created on.

His mama made him do it? :eyes:

Eminem is a made up persona, he doesn't exist. He is in a way a cartoon character. The real man is Marshall Mathers. Yet people always write about Eminem as if he was real, he isn't. And no one ever thinks to ask Marshall what he thinks. They take the lyrics he makes up for a persona and just run with the assumption it's what he thinks. But Marshall Mathers himself hasn't ever been connected with actually thinking in a manner that he'd approve of what he says as Eminem. And what he says as Eminem won't go away if you silence him. It'll still be there, on Eight Mile Road and lots of other places. Just as silencing NWA would've done nothing to change the reality of South Central LA. And the personas, are all made up, just like the Fresh Prince is made up. Will Smith turned down an academic scholarship to MIT to stick with rap. But listening to the Fresh Prince, no one would ever think he was that smart. But then he isn't the Fresh Prince, just as Marshall Mathers isn't Eminem.

and what HE promotes. Note the title of the thread.

I like your music as much as I like eminem's. why keep going on with this feud?

it`s all about ----money---- if the advertisers could get a big audience for racist music it would be on mtv.the new "rap music" sucks...the "musicians" are just cash cows for the record producers and their companies.

Tell it to Frank Zappa. This shit always surfaces in every generation of music, nothing new under the sun. Just throw all musicians in Jail and be done with it. Ozzie, Twisted Sister, Elvis, and every Rapper out there today that uses a four letter word ....... Gawwwwwwwwd it's bad enough the Right Wing Christian immoral leadership of this Country always seems to come down on Rock and Roll for the evils of society. Hey I got an idea lets throw all 'authors' of books in jail too if they happen to write about murders, and what-not. And that would be just a start, Yea whatever. Peace. :)

However, you are correct to say that we've had societal problems that "excuse" hating certain groups of people for sometime.

He explains the mindset of people who hate, for the most part. It's very courageous and I'm really surprised at the number of people who don't get it.

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/music/article.adp?id=20051202104909990009&cid=918

I would venture to guess many of his young male fans don't "get it" also? However, I don't think there is much to get beyond what Moby "got" frankly.

'Zappa's battle against Censoring in the 80's' ....... again I tell you there is nothing new under the sun. I Never said anything about Zappa's lyrics personally in my post. Are we paying attention, or assuming? peace. :)

words/lyrics/pop culture and it's potential effects upon society people pull out the Zappa card? No one is advocating censorship.

Questions of 'Art and Censorship' always have been and always will be intertwined just like 'Civil Rights and Freedom' or whatever else you care to throw out there. Why do people always mention Martin Luther King when talking about Civil Rights? Civil Rights isn't just about black people ... but he had the guts to stand up for what was righteous in his generation and not just for his people but for all of us. I pulled the Zappa card because he too had a few things to say about 'words/lyrics/pop culture and it's effects upon society' but he had more to say about PARENTS RESPONSIBILITY TO NOT BRING UP THEIR CHILDREN TO BE 'MORONS'. :) Good discussion with you, no one has all the answers, you nor me, but remember 'art imitates life too' and I'd take the 98% of songs out there singing of societal ill's, love, peace and what-not over making a big stink about one artists song that ...... invertible leads to censorship questions when you put it in the context of 'it's effect on society. Who's to say anti-war songs aren't 'emboldening the enemy' and therefore having a negative effect on our troops(or society)? That's someones 'spin' to fit an agenda and has nothing to do with the truth. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Now go here http://www.nonamesoldier.com and take a look at the Music Video I put together for my nephews song 'No Blood For Oil' (shameless plug) ........... all the best, question everything, and peace.

ps: damn did I spell 'Morons' correctly up there? :)

on edit: fix link. Duh!

But I have seen studies that show how glorifying the derogation and murder of women/gays/blacks ect. has a negative impact on society.

Couldn't get your link to work? :(

http://www.nonamesoldier.com ...... yea I'm not all that thrilled at all the violence portrayed in ALL of American culture myself, not just music. But I think society has to change though first, and that begins in the home, and in 'loving thy neighbor as thy self' Peace. The link should work now. :)

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

down to the radio station and we will BURN them!

I'm still partial to the Beatles music and wanna listen to them for a few more weeks. Please? Thanks. :)

I see. You will obviously need to go on our list of subversives.

I'm on! And I'm sure it won't be the last! :rofl: thanks for the laugh. :hi: & peace.

which has the lines "I used to be cruel to my woman, I beat her and kept her apart from the things that she loves", sung by John.

Just not my cup of tea. I think teenagers in general are a bit more open minded about gay people and other religious beliefs. It's just the parents who are fundies who aren't.

Eminem does not have the power to order men and woman to war like BUSH. I have every Eminem cd and I don't find him homophobic at all. Everyone wants to talk about Freedom yet nobody talks about taking responsibility for their own actions.

I'm sorry, but Moby needs to get over himself.

He's still pissed that Eminem embarrassed him in one of his songs.

Preface: I love both Moby AND Eminem

But IIRC, the song in questions is one where Eminem made fun of Moby in emasculating/homophobic terms. I can see why Moby would be upset.

Both are talented artists. I wish they'd knock this shit off.

If he'd stop talking publicly about Eminem, maybe he wouldn't get the wrath of his lyrics.

Yes, Em may have gone a little far in his words, but don't start a pissing match with a skunk.

I don't feel bad for Moby at all. I'd be mighty pissed off if someone I didn't even know was talking publicly about me and my life.

And I can't say that I wouldn't fight back and intentionally push a few lyrical buttons that I knew would hit hard.

He starts a controversy, pisses off a more successful artist he knows will write lyrics about him, then rides the free publicity to sell his next album. For all we know, the two are friends in real life.

The responsibility lies on the shoulders of the people who commit the crimes. People were blaming Marilyn Manson in the 1990s for his violent lyrics, and they most certainly blamed him for the massacre at Columbine High. I see Moby likes to condemn Eminem wherever he shows up, but I never saw him condemn directors and producers who turn out violent films.

If he has, good for him. If not, it could easily appear he's just railing Eminem because of some personal issue as opposed to some less personal, more altruistic purpose.

This is about a crime where a person killed another person. The attention should be on the murder suspect, not Eminem and most certainly not Moby. Why? Because they were not involved in the case.

watching Rambo: First Blood part 2, and went around the woods at night nailing people to trees with my crossbow.

...anti-war/anti-bush videos (MOSH comes to mind).

I'm not a big fan of Eminem but yes, there will be psychos out there that try to emulate these celebrities and do crap like this guy did with stuffing his girlfriend in a suitcase.

As for homophobia, if Elton John can embrace Eminem then maybe we should take a deeper look.

I'm still on the fence with Eminem but only because I'm not a big fan of rap, but I like his style rapping better than some of these 'gansta' style rappers

millions of dollar using such lyrics? I don't hear Moby speaking out about an entire genre music (Rap), much of which is filled with degrading and hateful lyrics and images towards women as a whole. I wonder why..... :cough: $$$ :cough:

Moby,
Keep your opinions and speak out about them, but when you call any person involved with selling Eminem's CD's complicit in such violence, then I feel you have gone a step too far. As an artist, you should understand that censorship is a very dangerous thing.

Second album, second song:

Illiterate, illigitimate shit spitter
Bitch getter, hid in the bush like Margot Kidder
Jumped out (Ahhhh!) killed the bitch and did her
Use to let the babysitter suck my dick when I was little'er
Smoke a blunt while I'm titty fuckin Bette Midler
Sniper, waiting on your roof like the Fiddler
Y'all thought I was gonna rhyme with Riddler
Didn't Ya? Bring your bitch I wanna see if this dick gon' fit in her

Second album, third song:

But if I had a million dollars
I'd buy a damn brewery, and turn the planet into alcoholics
If I had a magic wand, I'd make the world suck my dick
without a condom on, while I'm on the john
If I had a million bucks
it wouldn't be enough, because I'd still be out
robbing armored trucks
If I had one wish
I would ask for a big enough ass for the whole world to kiss

Second album, fourth song:

In school I never said much, too busy havin a headrush
Doin too much rush had my face flushed like red blush
Then I went to Jim Beam, that's when my face grayed
Went to gym in eighth grade, raped the women's swim team

Second album, sixth song:

C'mon Hai-Hai, we goin to the beach
Grab a couple of toys and let da-da strap you in the car seat
Oh where's mama? She's takin a little nap in the trunk
Oh that smell (whew!) da-da musta runned over a skunk
Now I know what you're thinkin - it's kind of late to go swimmin
But you know your mama, she's one of those type of women
that do crazy things, and if she don't get her way, she'll throw a fit
Don't play with da-da's toy knife, honey, let go of it (no!)
And don't look so upset, why you actin bashful?
Don't you wanna help da-da build a sand castle? (yeah!)
And mama said she wants to show how far she can float
And don't worry about that little boo-boo on her throat
It's just a little scratch - it don't hurt, her was eatin
dinner while you were sweepin and spilled ketchup on her shirt
Mama's messy isn't she? We'll let her wash off in the water
and me and you can pway by ourselves, can't we?

Second album, seventh song:

Me and Eminem and Mike
Drivin' down Van Dyke
Get my dick sucked late at night by a fuckin' transvestite
Still on probation for stranglin' my boy Jason
Should be takin' my medication, it's 9 to 10 I'm facin'
Last week this old man I had to blast
Cuz he tried to help me out when my car was out of gas
Ripped this old lady, hung her neck by a hook
Didn't realize it was my grandmother 'til I checked her pocketbook
Fuckin' with the white boys got me back on crack
Better explain where the hell your TVs and VCRs is at
I done lost 100 pounds, I ain't been eatin' like I should
This wounded dog in the street is sure lookin' good!
Rob this little boy in his fuckin' paper route
Throwin' bottles at day care centers and yell "EVERYBODY GET OUT"!
My girl beat my ass and shot me in the back with a 2-piece
Cuz she found out I was havin' an affair with her 10-year old niece

Second album, eighth song:

The best thing would be for me to leave Taco Bell an' hit up Chess King
And have the lady at the desk bring
Money from the safe in the back, stepped in wavin' the Mac
Cooperate and we can operate and save an attack
This bitch tried escapin' the jack
Grabbed her by the throat, it's murder she wrote
You barely heard a word as she choked
It wasn't nuttin' for her to be smoked
But I slammed her on her back 'til her vertebrae broke

Left the house, pullin' out the drive backin' out
Need a backin' out this lady's Jag started blackin' out
Pulled the Mac-10 out, stuck it in her face
Shut ya yackin' mouth before I blow the brain from out the back ya scalp
Drug her by her hair, smacked her up
Thinkin' fuck it, mug her while you're there, jacked her up
Stole her car, made a profit



I rest my case.... one song does not a hero of the people make.

understand what is being said....

from the second album is him giving people the finger. Basically telling anyone who doesn't like him to kiss his rear and jump off a cliff because really, he's just fine with them being offended. Which is a rather good way to be. Also those people who get offended at tales largely made up, just end up being free marketing.

better, his new cd is much more tame than the very first, I honestly don't see where such lyrics can be called an expression of our times....

If such is the case, wouldn't it be better to write lyrics that decry such abuses? What I tell my son anyway, nothing wrong with attempting to touch people in a more positive way..

wether it's the Who's My Generation or Kid Rock's American Bad Ass, penned a few songs like that myself. I'm all for positive, just how I am and what I write is, but every so often, it's fun to tell someone off.

not always a bad thing, I am trying to get him to write a bit more on the political side of the aisle though, he doesn't allow me to view his work while he is in the progressive stage.

Its not bad though, theres one that for some might seem a bit out there, but I like it, your right in that it's probablly better to tell someone off in song than face to face, nothing wrong with that.

a tell off song is to tell off some group or other of people. If there's someone specific I want to tell off, I'll do it face to face. Funny thing is I never set out to write a tell off song, just the way the words come to me.

If it was one or two songs, I'd let it go, but when it's EVERY song, the satire defense gets weak.

:hi:

Let's sing songs about Ward and June and Wally's scholarship and the Beav's lessons in spending allowances wisely.

which of Marshal Mather's personas is really him if any? Is he Eminem or is he Slim Shady? Or neither? he gets people in a stink about a song mentioning gays, then does a duet with Elton John. Authors have for centuries written about things they don't actually agree with, just makes for a good story. Nabakov wasn't a child molestor yet he wrote Lolita. The book has nothing to do with what Nabokov himself felt. I'm willing to bet if you invited Marshal to your place you'd have a splendid time. Seems like a nice enough guy. Not as outgoing or as much of a chatterbox as Kid Rock, but nice still.

some of them write about and in my company are actually very tame...

So your very right...

but that can not redeem him from what he did. and no, i'm not saying eminem is hitler, but a 'good' side doesn't cancel out the really bad side.

Ain't free speech grand? :toast:

So Eminem is reponsible for this ugly violence.

Is Moby then reponsible for promoting drug use?

So far as I can tell, Moby is doing what any citizen has a right to do: Say what he believes to be true, that some speech is irresponsible speech. We all have a right to say this. I'm an artist and I believe artists need to be free to express ideas, even very unpopular ideas. I am also gay and I don't like it when people espouse violence against me or others like me.

I support Moby's right to speak out publicly against what he perceives as irresponsible speech. IF, on the other hand, he was attempting to bring about changes in law that would censor or curtail freedom of expression, I would oppose his position.

like the pet shop boys did in response to eminem's homophobia -

The night I fell in love

I was backstage
couldn't believe my luck was in
I saw him approach
wearing a most approachable grin
When he said hello
I was surprised he spoke so politely
I said I'd liked his show
Well he just smiled
I guess it happens nightly
and so
I fell in love

We went to his room
he had a video camera
I was so nervous
I had to try hard not to stammer
He said
'I'm glad you liked the show
that crowd was dope out there tonight, alright
You wanna see some more?
Well be my guest
You can have a private performance'
I'd fallen in love

I didn't ask why
though he seemed like such a regular guy
he said we could be
secret lovers
just him and me
Then he joked
'Hey, man!
Your name isn't Stan, is it?
We should be together!'
And he was passionate
I guess I would rate
him a nine out of ten
by then
I'd fallen in love

When I asked
why have I heard so much
about him being charged
with homophobia and stuff
he just shrugged

Next morning we woke
he couldn't have been a nicer bloke
Over breakfast made jokes
about Dre and his homies and folks
Neither of us asked if or when
we would see each other again
but I thought that was cool
'cause Iwas already late for school
by then
I'd fallen in love

Moby is a Christian who (surprise) talks the talk and walks the walk. Plus he actually has (shock of all shocks) musical talent, playing all if not most of the MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS on his albums. Imagine THAT bizarre concept in this day and age.

Eminem is a white-bread pretty-boy gangsta wanna-be. He and his handlers have one laser-beam like focus: the $$$$$$$$$$$$$. Don't imagine for a second that he amounts to anything more than that.

What the fuck is wrong with this guy? The impersonator killed a girl BECAUSE HE WAS CRAZY! Music doesn't make people into killers, killers just happen to listen to music like normal folk. Normal folk don't go around killing girls and stuffing them into suitcases. For fuck's sake, stop externalizing individual responsibility for unacceptable behavior.

Ozzy killed the kids! And Judas Priest! And J.D.Salinger :eyes:

It was the curtain call special. It was pretty good. Em actually brought tears to my eyes with the last song, remember me (I think it was called)

oy

Don't tell me his music doesn't make you want to go on a three state killing spree.

Despite all the back and forth, the basic question is, Is all speech free? or, Some speech is so awful that the current prevailing cultural viewpoints are right when they ban it, expunge it or have it burned and condemned?


M&M is quite a talent

Let's settle this dispute once and for all.

Isn't Eminem over, already?

and the whole subject of that song was a deranged fan who kills his girlfriend for getting in the way of his obsession with Eminem. In the video Eminem plays both the role of himself and of the deranged fan and the lyrics are an exchange of letters between them. The girlfriend is thrown in the trunk after walking in on the fan doctoring a picture of the couple together by putting a picture of Eminem's face on top of her face. While he is driving down the street with her in the trunk, the final letter of the exchange from the star telling the fan to get his priorities straight is being said, but is unable to reach its receiver who has driven off of a bridge. The video/song in no way glorifies being a deranged fan who gets his girlfriend killed in a car accident after putting her in a trunk.

that to criticize a work of art, it is necessary to actually see and understand said work of art.

Also, I'm not a big fan of Eminem's music, but I love music videos. Sadly, in recent years music videos have declined in quality, but Eminem is one of the best video maker's around currently. He knows how to make rap videos that are about more than butts shaking, Crystal flowing, and gold being tossed around.

in question also misunderstood the good intentions of Eminem, apparently?

who writes tiresome dirges.

Take him or leave him - I personally don't go for his style of music at all - the wit, vitality, showmanship, and sheer inventive talent of Eminem's work will be remembered long, long after Moby's drippy sub-Morrissey whingefests have disappeared from everyone's memory. I assume Moby objects to Titian's Rape of the Sabine Women for its depiction of women as well. Dick.

Eminem
Stan

CHORUS:
My tea's gone cold, I'm wondering why I got out of bed
at all
the morning rain clouds up my window and I can't see
at all
And even if I could it'd all be grey, but your picture
on my wall
it reminds me that it's not so bad, it's not so bad

My tea's gone cold,I'm wondering why I got out of bed
at all
the morning rain clouds up my window and I can't see
at all
And even if I could it'd all be grey, but your picture
on my wall
it reminds me that it's not so bad, it's not so bad

VERSE 1:

Dear Slim, I wrote you but you still ain't callin'
I left my cell, my pager, and my home phone at the
bottom
I sent two letters back in autumn
You must not have got 'em
It probably was a problem at the post office or
somethin'

Sometimes I scribble addresses too sloppy when I jot
'em
But anyways, fuck it, what's been up man, how's your
daughter?
My girlfriend's pregnant too, I'm out to be a father
If I have a daughter, guess what I'm-a call her? I'm-a
name her Bonnie.

I read about your uncle Ronnie too, I'm sorry
I had a friend kill himself over some bitch who didn't
want him.
I know you probably hear this everyday, but I'm your
biggest fan.
I even got the underground shit that you did with
Scam.

I got a room full of your posters and your pictures,
man.
I like the shit you did with Ruckus too, that shit was
fat.
Anyways, I hope you get this man, hit me back, just to
chat
Truly yours, your biggest fan, this is Stan.


CHORUS:

My tea's gone cold,I'm wondering why I got out of bed
at all
the morning rain clouds up my window and I can't see
at all
And even if I could it'd all be grey, but your picture
on my wall
it reminds me that it's not so bad, it's not so bad


VERSE 2:

Dear Slim, you still ain't called or wrote, I hope you
have the chance.
I ain't mad, I just think it's fucked up you don't
answer fans.
If you didn't want to talk to me outside your concert
You didn't have to
but you could have signed an autograph for Matthew.
That's my little brother, man. He's only 6 years old.
We waited in the blistering cold for you for 4 hours
and ya just said no.
That's pretty shitty man, you're like his fuckin' idol
He wants to be just like you man, he likes you more
than I do.

I ain't that mad, but I just don't like bein' lied to.
Remember when we met in Denver, you said if I write
you
You would write back. See, I'm just like you in a way.
I never knew my father neither.
He used to always cheat on my mom and beat her.

I can relate to what you're sayin' in your songs.
So when I have a shitty day, I drift away and put 'em
on.
Cause I don't really got shit else, so that shit helps
when I'm depressed.
I even got a tattoo with your name across the chest.

Sometimes I even cut myself to see how much it bleeds.
It's like adrenaline. The Pain is such a sudden rush
for me.
See, everything you say is real, and I respect you
'cause you tell it.
My girlfriend's jealous 'cause I talk about you 24/7.
But she don't know you like I know you, Slim, no one
does.
She don't know what it was like for people like us
growing up.
You've gotta call me man. I'll be the biggest fan
you'll ever lose.
Sincerely yours, Stan. PS: We should be together too.


CHORUS:

My tea's gone cold,I'm wondering why I got out of bed
at all
the morning rain clouds up my window and I can't see
at all
And even if I could it'd all be grey, but your picture
on my wall
it reminds me that it's not so bad, it's not so bad

VERSE 3:

Dear Mr. "I'm too good to call or write my fans"
This'll be the last package I ever send your ass.
It's been six months and still no word. I don't
deserve it?
I know you got my last two letters, I wrote the
addresses on 'em perfect.

So this is my cassette I'm sending you. I hope you
hear it.
I'm in the car right now. I'm doing 90 on the freeway.
Hey Slim, "I drank a fifth of vodka, ya dare me to
drive?"
You know that song by Phil Collins from "The Air In
The Night"?
About that guy who could have saved that other guy
from drowning?
But didn't? Then Phil saw it all then at his show he
found him?
That's kinda how this is. You could have rescued me
from drowning.
Now it's too late. I'm on a thousand downers now, I'm
drowsy.

And all I wanted was a lousy letter or a call.
I hope you know I ripped all o' your pictures off the
wall.
I love you Slim, we could have been together. Think
about it.
You ruined it now, I hope you can't sleep and you
dream about it.
And when you dream, I hope you can't sleep and you
scream about it.
I hope your conscious eats at you and you can't
breathe without me.
See Slim, {screaming} shut up bitch, I'm trying to
talk
Hey Slim, that's my girlfriend screaming in the trunk.
But I didn't slit her throat, I just tied her up, see
I ain't like you.
'Cause if she suffocates, she'll suffer more, and then
she'll die too.
Well, gotta go, I'm almost at the bridge now.
Oh shit, I forgot, how am I supposed to send this shit
out?

{screeching tires, crashing sounds, car splashes into
the water}


CHORUS:

My tea's gone cold,I'm wondering why I got out of bed
at all
the morning rain clouds up my window and I can't see
at all
And even if I could it'd all be grey, but your picture
on my wall
it reminds me that it's not so bad, it's not so bad

VERSE 4:

Dear Stan, I meant to write you sooner, but I've just
been busy.
You said your girlfriend's pregnant now, how far along
is she?
Look, I'm really flattered you would call your
daughter that.
And here's an autograph for your brother: I wrote it
on your Starter cap.

I'm sorry I didn't see you at the show, I must have
missed you.
Don't think I did that shit intentionally, just to
diss you.
And what's this shit you said about you like to cut
your wrists too?
I say that shit just clownin' dawg, c'mon, how fucked
up is you?
You got some issues, Stan, I think you need some
counselin'
To help your ass from bouncin' off the walls when you
get down some.

And what's this shit about us meant to be together?
That type of shit'll make me not want us to meet each
other.
I really think you and your girlfriend need each
other.
Or maybe you just need to treat her better.
I hope you get to read this letter.
I just hope it reaches you in time.
Before you hurt yourself, I think that you'd be doin'
just fine
If you'd relax a little. I'm glad that I inspire you,
but Stan
Why are you so mad? Try to understand that I do want
you as a fan.
I just don't want you to do some crazy shit.
I seen this one shit on the news a couple weeks ago
that made me sick.
Some dude was drunk and drove his car over a bridge
And had his girlfriend in the trunk and she was
pregnant with his kid
And in the car they found a tape but it didn't say who
it was to
Come to think about it...his name was...it was you.
DAMN!