Think of the hundreds of thousands of people in Iraq who have
been killed? How soon do you think it will be before they
forgive and forget?

Yes, I do believe we would.

OK, first, we defeated both Germany and Japan in self defense with the help of our allies. It wasn't a matter of forgiveness there, in fact, we commited some atrocities in retaliation, though theirs still are millions of times worst. We simply didn't want to set up for a World War 3, like we did for World War 2 after the "Great War". In Vietnam, we were the ones who invaded, so it should be the Vietnamese that would forgive us, not the other way around.

ON EDIT: For the CSA, that is more complicated, however, political expediency takes precedence. At first we retaliated, harshly, then let up, a little too lightly, during Reconstruction.

My post was a response to the OP. You've added restraints that were not in the question at hand.

:hi:

We weren't invaded by Germany or Viet Nam -- quite the opposite. And Japan bombed our ships at Pearl Harbor, but never reached the mainland in any significant way.

"If some country killed thousands of OUR people, would we forgive 'em?"

It doesn't say where the killing occured, or under what circumstances, or who was "right" or "wrong", or who win or lost the war ultimately, or even if a war was involved.

And Japan bombed our ships at Pearl Harbor, but never reached the mainland in any significant way.

I'll bet the balloon bomb that killed six innocent civilians who were picknicking in Oregon was significant to their families. It would be interesting to direct the original question to them.

And if we didn't fight them in '41, we'd have fought them in '51 or '61 after they had the bomb. Yes, defeating Germany was self defense

they wouldn't surrender.

You weren't

They AND us would have lost many, many more in an invasion.

They should have surrendered. THEY attacked US.

Whether or not they would have surrendered.
And I agree with Leo Szilard, it was a war crime and I'm ashamed my country had any involvement with it.

Anyone?


Buller?

I answered the author's question. We have forgiven Japan.

:nuke:

And radioactified their cities.

That isn't, technically, forgiving them.

And radioactified their cities.

That isn't, technically, forgiving them.

Why not?

How many generations have to pass before we are "allowed" to forgive Japan?

That's a double standard. killing is killing. Whether or not we came oout on top doesn't make japan's actions ok, or not need forgiveness. And I think the Americans have forgiven past enemies. Hell, we had a civil war here less then a hundred and fifty years ago. IN the middle east, there is tension from civil wars from nearly a thousand years ago. And not just the middle east, but many parts of the world. I think our ability to forgive and move on is pretty damn good.

It doesn't say anything about winners or losers.

You can no longer forgive. In granting forgiveness you give up your right to retribution. You are never allowed to forgive them, as you've broken the terms of forgiveness.

And put Japanese Americans in concentration camps.
Nearly forgot that atrocity.

If you ever visit the Southern California on the back side of the Sierra Nevada, it's worth a side trip to the memorial at Manzanar.

Can't we all just .... get along?

Sure, why not? We'll just take it out on Iraq instead.

And yes, I would forgive them. But only if they imposed their system of government on me in the aftermath.

what popped into my head. I guess Iraq was close enough :sarcasm:

and reduced their cities to ashes, then America would forgive them by rebuilding their country to be our new friend.

Makes sense to me.

NOT!

Making war reparations. Prosecuting the media and others who enabled the crime, as happened at the Nuremburg trials.

If the country didn't do that, how could you possibly forgive them.

I doubt many conservatives would be big fans of the policy of preemption much longer.

with another country invading ours to overthrow a goverment official who was elected.
Unlike Saddam, he was elected, before all the elections were stolen replies. Relax, I think
that our system is a little bit more democratic than Iraq's previous.

Since your equating our goverment practice with Iraq's whether you menat to or not, would you
like another country to invade us to overthrow a President

and, honestly, being selected by nine people appointed for life (the majority of which are hardcore members of his ruling party) may make him very much like Saddam Hussein indeed.

But don't forget that both have engaged in torture and, until a revolt by John McCain and some of his own party, Bush had practially made it a legal practice.

people. We invade their country instead.

if they did it while we still in the iraq quagmire

peace

hmmmm.....

even if we got similar treatment here.

For instance when we do "precision bombing" in areas that we think some terrorist is in and end up wiping out parts of neighborhoods, killing families, children, old folks, wedding parties. Casualties of war.

We have some bad criminals here. Why do they go through busting into a house to arrest them? Why not precision bombing? Sure, I'd miss my neighbors or family, or if I survived but my home was destroyed that would be a bitch to be homeless, lose my goods. But that's casualties of chasing really bad guys.

How many children would have to die before we minded?

god know I hate bush and everyone knows we are a hostile nation with weapons of mass destruction. But even so I would hate some country to come in with their bombs and military and weapons.

I might not think we came out ahead in any way if we moved from a secular nation to one where all the women had to dress a certain way and lost all their rights and belonged to the men. How very nice.

I might not really like them destroying my towns, grabbing my brothers and sons at gunpoint, torturing them. Might not appreciate my town being destroyed and the skin melted off the people who stayed because they had no where to go.

And so on...maybe I am pickier then others, but just don't think these guys would be winning my heart.

Nope, we've not forgiven them yet... well, except that we've forgotten who "they" are exactly.

"Nope, we've not forgiven them yet... well, except that we've forgotten who "they" are exactly."

Sums my thoughts up perfectly.

We have become the do as we say not as we do country.

the japanese, the germans, and best of all...the British.

So yeah...I think you can develop quite a cultural bias against people who occupy your land or attack you or are otherwise responsible for war and conflict that kills your family and loved ones.

Ask some Africans or Native Americans the impact our actions even 200 years ago had on their lives today. Ask the Chinese how they still feel about the Japanese.

And I suspect the older the civilization, the longer their memory. We will never be loved in the ME in our lifetime. I will be suprised if we ever achieve a status of less than HATED in our lifetime...regardless of the widescreen TVs and bigmacs we might push their way.

The Okinawans hate the Japanese.

The Irish hate the English.

The Polish hate the Russians.

The Polish hate the Germans.

The Dutch hate the Germans.

The French hate the English.

The English hate the French.

And the global list goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on

All because of historical conflicts.

Thank you, GWB, for bringing us up to date in the historical hate file. Future generations will thank your ignornat, bumbling, warmongering ass.

But I'm biased.

Surely you don;t dislike him because he is Jewish? So why the reference.

Now I have that song stuck in my head.

:argh:

They will never forgive. And why should they?

Most Americans are unable to place themselves in that situation because they are so goddamn spoiled. They are so fucking ignorant. They think that the more people we kill in this world, the more respect we get.

After all. Bin Laden and his lackeys killed thousands of our people, and Chimpy apparently thinks it's just hunky dory. If he had a problem with it, surely we'd be after HIM instead of wasting all this time in Iraq...

bring "Democracy" to them, never mind that it's at the end of a gun. :eyes:

Yes. I guess we would.

...Japanese Americans into concentration (excuse me "internment") camps is our idea of forgiveness. :eyes:

We're Americans. We're better than everyone else. The rest of the planet is supposed to get down on it's knees and thank God that we exist, because we are so much better than they are. Their lives just don't matter as much as ours do. So, of course they should immediately forgive us, because we're Americans and what we do is right because we do it.

to invade and bomb the shit out of third world countries and change their governments, because people elsewhere in the world are too dumb to realize that they need a peculiar kind of American-style "democracy" - one that's delivered by military occupation and the installation of stooges favorable to the ruling elite in DC. And if people die along the way, oh well. Iraqis don't count and the flag wavers are so proud of others' service in the US military that they are willing to go to the time, trouble, and expense of buying a "Support the Troops" ribbon for their SUV. American "patriotism" at its finest.

Every fighting patriot would be already dead.
Their mates and friends, hiding out in various
places many already dead as well. Every family
lost half its hopefuls, most good and educated
families pulling out to move abroad.

And what is left, but the middle of the middle,
the softspoken, those without the hard opinions
of the dead; the children; the mourning lovers,
and when you've cried that many tears, "the enemy"
is beyond hated, loathed or forgiven,
rather just an alien prop in a living
nightmare of personal tragedy.

We not only don't forgive, we seek revenge in the most destructive form available and spread that revenge to others who weren't even responsible for the initial violation of our senses.

You don't win friends, nor do you show your caring and conern by bombing and killing and destroying cities. How many? Well * doesn't know, so he made up a number. suffice it to say, it will take many many many years to fix what he screwed up.

Are too busy planting IED's - in retaliation for the destruction of 70 percent of their city and the systematic genocide using unethical 'we-can't-call-them-chemical-weapons-but-they-melt-the-skin-off-of-children' incidiary phosphorus "napalm-like" weapons on their cousins, brothers, sisters, mothers and various other family members who chose to stay in their own homes rather than run out into the desert where the US military did not even bother providing enough tent facilities to house them....

Maybe if you asked a Shia? Depends on whether they won the election.

The full Fallujah story is here.

http://www.chris-floyd.com/fallujah/ which is arguably the best source on the net on the subject.

..the bombs flying over my head in Canada (lol-I think?)..and my first words
would be, "thank gawd, here comes freedom". :sarcasm: <---obviously.

This brings to mind the old Vietnam comedy routine explaining that the entire war was really a good business move. "After we destroy the country, they're gonna need us to rebuild it...McDonalds, Holiday Inns...". Alas how much that joke reflected reality.

The other night I was at a concert at the local high school. Looking at the program I saw a lot of different ethnicities...Hispanics, Koreans, Vietnamese, Laotians...the one bond? We invaded their countries or exploited their economies or both. I predicted that a program of a concert in this school in 20 years could include a lot of Abduls and Mohammeds.

It's easy to say how we made friends of the Japanese and Germans through the rebuilding of their country...but there are those who will argue that the majority of people in those countries had favorable views of America as many of their ex-patriots had emmigrated. There's no such template in Iraq. Time will tell.

Nonetheless, we will pay for this invasion in many ways...in blood, in treasure and in prestige for years and possibly decades to come. This country never launched a war of aggression on a sovereign state like this before...and with so little international acceptance and cooperation. Again, time will tell, but I sense the hatred this regime has brought about this country in the Arab world will endure long after the boooosh regime is vanquished to the failure pages of history.

get even with us?

any Snickers Bars and Roses thrown at them from me. I am sure the neocons would make up for it though with plenty of candy and flowers.

...and spread a little freedom around.

:sarcasm:

The way things are going, we might very well be coming up short in those two departments.

and we still have not forgiven Iraq for it. :sarcasm: