screw the TWU

sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:18 AM Original message

screw the TWU

the MTA came back and made a very fair offer 3% raises for 3 years, leaving the retirement age at 55 the only proviso that the new workers would have to pay 6% into the pension for the first 10 years of their employement before dropping down to 3%. the TWU rejected it without a counter offer and walked out of the talks, calling a strike at 3am. apparently 1/3rd of the TWU exec board voted against a strike, but a strike is what we have. normally i support unions wholeheartedly but in this case the TWU is being ridiculous. the union leaders face certain jail time, the union itself heavy fines and the workers being fined 2 days pay for each one struck (in effect losing 3 days pay, cause they dont get paid the days they struck) they could have declared an impasse and gone to arbitration. they could have negotiated more but refused. now we all pay the price. what more does the TWU want?

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annabanana (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:23 AM Response to Original message

1. they want the pensions to be safe

and they want the new guys to have adequate health care. They are not striking for the hell of it. Put on some decent shoes and walk it off.

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:25 AM Response to Reply #1

2. the new guys

Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 06:26 AM by sabbat hunter will have the same health care as tehre is now, meaning they dont pay one dime of the costs. sounds a hella lot better than most people have. the pensions are safe. not in any danger. the only difference is that new workers would pay 6% for the first 10 years instead of 3%. after 10 years they would pay 3% too. sounds pretty damn safe to me.

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november3rd (653 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 12:45 PM Response to Reply #2

133. Sounds like you're cheering

Sounds like you're cheering for a race to the bottom. Stand behind these workers, they deserve as good a deal as the other unions.

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FogerRox (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:49 PM Response to Reply #133

238. Right -- cheering the race to the bottom

I heard the same kind of shit when Reagan busted the ATC union. This person wishes to begrudge the MTA workers a living wage.

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DefenseLawyer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:05 PM Response to Reply #2

189. I'm just a caveman

but it seems to me that if you have a situation where you can pay new workers less either in terms of wages and/or benefits then management would have an incentive to get rid of current employees whenever possible and replace them with new people at better terms. I might balk at that if I were a current employee, especially if the boss has a billion dollar surplus.

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IronLionZion (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:37 PM Response to Reply #189

236. it's the 9/11 surplus

they raised fares to pay for reconstruction and generally to compensate for lost revenue in other sectors. This strike is bad for everyone involved, especially union workers. NYC transit workers make more money than I do.

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iconoclastNYC (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 11:09 AM Response to Reply #236

270. BULLSHIT

This has nothing to do with 9/11. They raised fars to pay off a deficit. The biggest reason the MTA has deficits is becasue Republican mayors and governors refuse to fund the MTA so the MTA has to borrow money and pay interest on those moneys. If the MTA never borrorowed money they woudln't have a deficit and fairs would be lower.

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 01:29 PM Response to Reply #270

277. the MTA

also spent millions on a white elephant of a new HQ which was hit with tons of cost overuns and delays, then sold it for without ever using it. the MTA doesnt spent its money wisely. a full public accounting of its books is needed.

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:03 AM Response to Reply #1

8. "Walk it off." Please tell that to my fiancee who is physically

Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 07:04 AM by geek tragedy disabled and uses public transportation to get to her job, where she works as an attorney representing poor women. Oh, by the way, she makes significantly less than the TWU person who picks up trash or sits on their overpaid ass in a booth for 8 hours a day. Fuck the TWU. Their members would be making half of that if they had to compete for jobs in the private sector.

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FredScuttle (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 03:26 PM Response to Reply #8

144. Oh? So if it's so cushy

Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 03:26 PM by FredScuttle I'll expect you to be applying for a booth job or picking up trash since it's such a cushy gig. Yeah, I thought so.

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iconoclastNYC (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 11:10 AM Response to Reply #8

271. OK since your financee

Makes no money nobody should make money. Right. Fuck greedy jealous people like you who are aiding and abetting the war on the middle class (unions).

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liberalhistorian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 11:59 PM Response to Reply #271

302. Thank you.

Couldn't have said it better myself! People like that are only falling prey to the repuke spin on strikes and unions and I'm amazed to find that on DU, of all places. You never hear them call for accountability of management and the corporatocracy that does virtually nothing for their huge salaries except sit back and let the workers do all the work that nets them those huge salaries. You never hear them call for accountability for bad management of an agency or company's finances which is usually the real cause of financial problems, and not workers. Oh, no, it's only the rank-and-file workers fault. Always. Never mind that they have no control over how management handles company finances or what they do with company money or how much the big overpaid underworked suits get in their mega-salaries. I heard all this same shit while growing up with parents who were teachers, watching them work their asses off, even on evenings and weekends, while the do-nothing administrators made all the money and implemented all the stupid decisions even though they hadn't been in a classroom in years, if ever. And yet it was always the teachers fault. God, I'm so fucking sick of that. And I'm especially sick of people like this guy who falls victim to the bullshit repuke spin on things when they should damn well know better.

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Dorian Gray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:20 AM Response to Reply #1

48. They asked the new guys

to put in 6% towards their own health care. Do you know a corporation or business, other than people who work in civil servant jobs, where they do not have to put in money towards their own health care? They're talking about only $30.00, which would have been more than taken care of by their other perks, including salary increase. It's frustrating when the entire city is virtually F---ed over because of something that EVERYBODY here has to do themselves.

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FogerRox (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:51 PM Response to Reply #48

239. race to the bottom

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liberalhistorian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 12:06 AM Response to Reply #48

303. Everybody except the

big vastly underworked and grossly overpaid big suits who are actually responsible for the agency's financial mess with their mismanagement of funds and bad decisions, while letting the workers do all the work that actually brings them those mega-salaries and mucho perks. Why don't I hear you bitching about THEM? Of course, it's the workers fault, only and always. Never, ever, the grossly overpaid management who's actually fucked up the finances. Amazing how many people here have fallen victim to the bullshit repuke spin. You all should damn well know better. And for the record, I may make under $30,000 a year, but I don't have to pay anything for my insurance. I would have to pay several hundred a month for my son and any other dependents (thank God his father has insurance), though. And the insurance really isn't that great. The co-pays and deductibles are horrendous. And do you have any idea how horrendously high the cost of living in NYC is? Oh, wait, maybe I shouldn't say anything about that because the next thing we know, you'll be saying how "well, they chose to live there, no one's forcing them", blahblahblah. Go tell it to FR, that bullshit would be a lot more welcome there. :eyes:

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MadHound (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:32 AM Response to Original message

3. Judging from what I'm seeing in the news,

What you're saying isn't the case. Do you have a link?

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TomClash (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:36 AM Response to Original message

4. Not true

Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 06:37 AM by TomClash They went down to 6%. Why did Kalikow fail to show up until the eleventh hour of negotiations? Why did he say the 3% offer was the MTA's final offer? Why did the MTA decide to use the $1b surplus for "reduced holiday fares" that no one is buying except tourists? The MTA lied to Toussaint in 2002, saying there was no money and then magically finding $600m after an agreement was reached. Toussaint and the TWU took one for the team, agreeing to a very small raise dring "tough times" that turned out not to be very tough at all. The MTA will probably be in court this morning seeking contempt charges. If I were the Judge Jones, I'd order Kalikow and Toussaint and their chief negotiators to my courtroom, escorted by the sheriff's deputies or officers of the 84th Precinct if necessary, and I'd tell them they are not leaving until a deal is hammered out. Someone has to be the adult here.

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:48 AM Response to Reply #4

6. they did

they did go down to 6% but they also agreed to keep the retirement age at 55. the surplus doesnt 'belong' to the TWU or the MTA. it should go back to the transit riders in the form of a lowered fare. not a "reduced holiday fare" but a real reduction. the raises that the MTA offered are pretty reasonable considering what the average worker gets for a raise each year. i agree that both sides should be locked in a room, with no bathroom, food or water until a settlement is reached. i bet after a few hours and people need to use the restroom a settlement will be reached. now the workers will suffer. a strike of more than a day or so will wipe out any raise they get. the union will pay heavy fines. the city will lose 400 million in estimated lost revenues in this holiday season. retailers will lose sales due to people unable to get to the stores. the riders have to find alternative, more expensive ways to get into the city. a lose lose for all thanks TWU! thanks MTA </sarcasm>

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MadHound (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:57 AM Response to Reply #6

7. I'm sorry that you're inconvienenced by this, but let me ask you

When is there a more effective time for a strike? C'mon, this has been going on for too long, and managment wasn't going to give. Thus, they had to strike, and the timing is designed to bring about the quickest, best results possible. Sorry that it is making matters difficult for you, but don't you support labor? After all, we're constantly complaining about how labor and the unions are having huge problems, yet is it any wonder, when a strike is called their fellow workers bitch and moan rather than support them. Sorry, but that is bull. Do you really think that labor wanted to incure these fines? Do you think that they wanted a strike right before Christmas? This isn't a good situation for them either. I would suggest rather than whining and moaning, go take some food to your nearest strikers, hot soup, etc. Show some solidarity, Lord knows that in this undeclared class war we need all that we can get.

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:05 AM Response to Reply #7

9. TWU workers have it made. $50k/year to sit in a fare booth. eom

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BlueCollar (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:36 AM Response to Reply #9

13. and get gasoline thrown on them...

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TomClash (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:13 AM Response to Reply #13

41. And what about track workers and electricians and plumbers and conductors

Yesterday I was on the train and the motorman had to break up a fight between two guys. He had to hold them until the police came. He was protecting his riders. How many other people take those kinds of risks?

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BronxBoy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:10 PM Response to Reply #13

194. Yep

Or get electrocuted while track walking..... Or hit by trains Yeah. All these jobs are real CUSHY

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mcscajun (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 10:37 AM Response to Reply #13

264. You remember that too, huh?

I was working in a major NYC bank as a teller back in the late 70s - early 80s, and I saw that token clerks were making more than I was, and I figured that'd be a cushy job; no complexities like those in a teller's position. Just sell the tokens, make the change, fill out the reports, carry the token buckets. I took the exam, got called for a interview, and was all set to make the leap -- then token clerks started getting torched. I stayed in banking.

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Cooley Hurd (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:54 AM Response to Reply #9

23. $50K in NYC is like $18K everywhere else...

Oh yeah - they really have it made!:eyes:

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:56 AM Response to Reply #23

27. More than teachers and social workers. Who should be paid

more, teachers and social workers or the person sitting on their ass in a fare booth?

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Cooley Hurd (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:02 AM Response to Reply #27

32. So, GT, exactly how much does a teacher/social worker make...

...in NYC? Links?

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:06 AM Response to Reply #32

36. See here for the teacher salary grade:

http://www.nycenet.edu/offices/dhr/payroll/ssct.aspx Hey, if you're a teacher who's been on the job for seven years AND has incurred the debt for a masters degree, you can make as much as the person sitting in the fare booth! What a deal!

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Jersey Devil (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:11 AM Response to Reply #36

40. Sure, all they do is sit in fare booths

They don't drive the buses or trains or fix and service them in shops all around the city. They don't stand out in the cold in train yards and deal with the public on buses in inclement weather and NYC's constant traffic jams. They live the life of Riley, no work, all fun.

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:16 AM Response to Reply #40

43. Are you outraged that bus drivers don't make more than teachers?

I sure as hell am not.

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Bridget Burke (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:19 AM Response to Reply #43

47. Doesn't that mean the teachers should get a raise?

Just because some workers are underpaid, should everyone be brought down to their level?

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:23 AM Response to Reply #47

55. Teachers, cops, and firefighters should get a raise.

And the transit workers should get in line behind them.

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Bridget Burke (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:27 AM Response to Reply #55

61. How will backing down on wage demands help other workers?

It just sets an example of weak labor. I've seen NO evidence that the transit workers are asking for funds that would otherwise go to "more deserving" workers. Some real figures for comparative wages among the groups you mention would help the discussion.

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:46 AM Response to Reply #61

79. Here are some numbers, to demonstrate the plight of these 'poor' workers

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=traffic&id=3720439 "According to the MTA, a typical subway conductor makes $53,900 in salary and overtime. Bus drivers average $62,500. And motormen $62,440." For them to only get a 9% raise over three years is hardly the kind of injustice that warrants this form of illegal collective punishment.

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:47 AM Response to Reply #61

80. Here are some transit workers numbers:

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=traffic&id=3720439 "According to the MTA, a typical subway conductor makes $53,900 in salary and overtime. Bus drivers average $62,500. And motormen $62,440." For them to only get a 9% raise over three years is hardly the kind of injustice that warrants this form of illegal collective punishment. I posted the teachers' info above.

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Bridget Burke (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:51 AM Response to Reply #80

85. So--will money not paid to transit workers go to the teachers?

Do you want the other groups raised up--or the TWA cut down?

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:55 AM Response to Reply #85

89. I want the TWU to follow the example set by the teachers, cops

and others and not willfully punish the people of NYC. The transit workers make enough as things stand. $63,000 is plenty for a bus driver.

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Bridget Burke (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:18 AM Response to Reply #89

103. So teachers' pay is not really important....

It's more important that all the workers do their jobs & not complain. No, money taken from the transit workers will NOT help those you consider more deserving. The example of a weak union just makes things worse.

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400Years (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 12:47 PM Response to Reply #103

134. geek tragedy is trying the old divide and conquer technique

it is not a question of transit workers vs. teachers it is a question of wether we want to have a middle class here in America. GT probably knows he is being dishonest but he has an agenda.

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stepnw1f (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:01 PM Response to Reply #134

186. good catch (nt)

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 07:16 AM Response to Reply #134

255. The International TWU is opposing the strike.

Unless you want to accuse the International Transit Workers of trying to hurt the labor movement, you should probably withdraw your reckless accusation.

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Commie Pinko Dirtbag (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 02:35 PM Response to Reply #255

287. Dude, lots of people have memories and remember other subjects

you found fit to talk about here. And that's all I'm saying.

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nedbal (675 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 11:48 PM Response to Reply #255

301. DISINFORMATION

3. DISINFORMATION: TWU International orders members to cross picket lines. THE TRUTH: The International did what they were ordered to do by the court. The judge prohibited them from "engaging, causing, instigating, inciting, or in any way aiding or abetting or encouraging or condoning a strike." He told them they had to "notify all members of Local 100 of of their obligation to cease any and all strike or strike related activity." That that they did. In the 1980 strike, the International did the same thing, while the Local kept the lines strong for 11 days. Nobody in the TWU has ever ordered Union members to scab.

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 05:48 PM Response to Reply #103

177. You got it

STFU and do what we tell you like the good labor you are. Oh, that 40-hour week? Forget it -- unpaid overtime..... Your 12-year-old kid getting chubby from too much PS2? That's okay! We can use 'em in the poultry factories.... Hey, see that black guy? He's getting paid more than you, and he's in the union... see what happens? They let THOSE people in...

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liberalhistorian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 12:26 AM Response to Reply #177

307. LOL!

Well-said.

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 11:08 AM Response to Reply #307

328. Thank you -- solidarity!

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liberalhistorian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 12:23 AM Response to Reply #103

306. That's right, and the money

taken from the workers is going straight into the pockets of those in management who are the cause of the financial problems in the first place. Where in the hell is his outrage about that? Oh, no, it's always the workers. God, I'm so fucking sick of that!

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IndyOp (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:22 PM Response to Reply #89

232. How long have the teachers in NYC been working without a contract?

They haven't gone on strike, they've been working without a contract, right? Sometimes a strike is the only way to bring the matter to the foreground.

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:11 AM Response to Reply #80

96. dupe

you posted twice :P and those salaries are before OT and holiday pay. also they get full health benefits and retire at 55 with full pay. hells even cops and firemen dont get paid as well.

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liberalhistorian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 12:21 AM Response to Reply #80

305. Unbelievable. Where's your outrage

over the horrendously, ridiculously high salaries and endless perks of the underworked, overpaid big suits who've mismanaged the funds and seem to do nothing but give themselves raises and perks while thinking nothing of the workers out there in all kinds of weather, actually doing the work that gets the suits their ridiculous salaries? And the jobs you've cited ain't exactly cushy. Subway conductors, bus drivers and motormen often have difficult duties, especially the conductors. And when you're riding the subway or the bus, your life is in their hands and I WANT them to be well-compensated, just like I want the pilots who have my life in their hands whenever I'm on the airplanes they're flying to be well-compensated. And you know what? Those salaries in NYC are NOTHING! They may seem high in other areas, but sure as hell not in NYC which has one of the highest cost of living in the country. Rents and housing prices alone are un-fucking-believable.

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 05:45 PM Response to Reply #47

176. Dead center on target, Bridget

What I've been telling people in posts all bloody day. They either don't get it, or don't want to. Sometimes I think * is posting on here today... Hey, BB -- Solidarity!

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liberalhistorian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 12:15 AM Response to Reply #43

304. And my parents,

who are retired teachers who each spent over thirty years in the classroom, would be absolutely furious at your attitude. You have no idea what the different jobs of the transit workers are like, and there are some that are very difficult and that not many people want to do. I sure as hell wouldn't if I had to deal with people like you. My parents supported ALL labor and laborors, recognizing that we're all in this together and that if one group of workers was being screwed and needed support, all the groups of workers needed to give that support. That way, when it is YOUR turn to need the support, you know it'll be there. There are few things more annoying than someone claiming that such-and-such a job is nothing, that they have it made, etc., etc. What the HELL would you know about it unless you actually did that job yourself?

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Dorian Gray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:26 AM Response to Reply #32

60. My husband, a teacher, makes

$42,000. He also tutors at the school, making an additional $3,000. (That's per year.) If he does the summer program, he will earn an additional $2,500. That's a total of $47,5000 per year. He has his Master's degree in British Lit, and he's been teaching for 9 years.

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Tesha (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 05:53 PM Response to Reply #60

181. Maybe he needs a better union? (NT)

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BigYawn (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:17 PM Response to Reply #181

199. What you may not realize is that if everyone got into a stronger union

Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 06:20 PM by BigYawn then they all get great raises, but guess what, prices of all goods and services will also have a "great" increase. The last time I looked there were no money trees anywhere. So, nobody wins. The excessive raises asked by WTU will come out of the pockets of EVERYONE who rides the subway and buses. A teacher needs helluva lot more training (masters degree?) that learning how to drive a bus or train. If teachers make $50,000 WTU deserve no more than $35,000.

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progressivejazz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:38 PM Response to Reply #199

204. So I guess you'll refuse your next raise.

And fight against people in your company's getting raises from now on. Otherwise the price of whatever it is your company provides will go up. You do want to be consistent, don't you?

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BigYawn (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:13 PM Response to Reply #204

225. I want a raise commensurate with my contribution to my employer

no more...no less. But my main point is, your earnings should have a coherent relationship with the amount of education, training & skills you have acquired in performing your job. To be a bus driver one does not need the same skills as an airplane designer or a brain surgeon. One week's tarining will make a fine bus driver versus 20 years to become an accomplished airplane designer or brain surgeon.

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 10:53 AM Response to Reply #225

268. What vile, elitist vomit

Edited on Wed Dec-21-05 10:54 AM by LostinVA Go spew it somewhere else. This is a discussion board, not www.imbetterthanbluecollarworkers.com. And. I'm not a blue collar worker.

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lukasahero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 11:12 AM Response to Reply #268

272. And as a discussion board, doesn't the other poster have a right

to discuss his opinion? Just asking.

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liberalhistorian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 12:39 AM Response to Reply #272

311. Yes, he does, absolutely!

And those of us who disagree have the right to express that also.

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 11:15 AM Response to Reply #272

329. I don't know, does he?

Does he have a DU-given right to post very nasty stuff about probably more than half the board? Does he have a right to say that the more education you have,m the better you are, and the more you should get paid? Have a Ph>d. and sit at a computer all day? You should get paid a lot. Have a HS diploma, but work as a commercial fisherman? get paid a lot less. Does this have a place on this board? I'm asking you, because I consider this something that walks the line for being appropriate -- because it's not opinion, it's flamebait. And I have a right to say his opinion is vile and elitist, and has no place in the mindset of a liberal, because someone who is liberal should never, ever think that.

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lukasahero (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 02:08 PM Response to Reply #329

335. Last I checked, yeah, he has that right. Talk about your thought police.

I thought most people here supported the idea of freedom of speech, expression and ideas? And you certainly have a right to call his opinion whatever you want, (I never suggested otherwise) but I'm pretty sure it's still legal to have a different opinion here and in America in general. Of course shrub is working on that so, hey, you've got someone in your corner you can be proud of. Alert on his post if you think it breaks DU rules, but you might want to figure out which rule it broke first.

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liberalhistorian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 12:37 AM Response to Reply #225

310. What utter bullshit!

It takes a lot more training and experience than that, and I don't WANT a bus driver who's only had one week's training! Especially since my life is in his or her hands. And what the hell would you know about it? Have you ever had a job where you're responsible for the lives of many, many people every single fucking day? What elitist vomit-inducing bullshit.

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BigYawn (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 02:17 AM Response to Reply #310

323. Actually it may surprise you but I worked as a cab driver

in Chicago to earn funds for my college stint at U of Iowa. And I never had an accident, and the training to be a good cabby was minimal. On the other hand it took 6 years of engineering school and 10+ years at my job before I became a really accomplished engineer and got promotion to be the corporate manger of computer aided design and engineering and manufacturing automation.

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Tesha (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:06 PM Response to Reply #199

223. If a teacher makes a mistake, it probably won't kill people.

That motorman or bus driver has a lot of responsibility, and if they make a mistake, dozens or hundreds of folks may *DIE*. Generally speaking, teachers' mistakes don't have the same sorts of prompt, very serious consequences (although they may have long-term consequences). Tesha

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BigYawn (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:18 PM Response to Reply #223

227. A bad teacher can ruin hundreds of students careers...

and as for the bus driver's responsibility, 100 million auto drivers get behind the wheel EVERY DAY and the accident rate is less than 10,000 per day.....that is less than 0.01 percent malfeasance! That is a lower rate than defects in almost any product made. Can't be all that difficult to drive a bus.

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Tesha (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:49 PM Response to Reply #227

229. So if it's so easy and pays so well, why don't you do it? (NT)

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BigYawn (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:56 PM Response to Reply #229

231. The job would bore me to sleep, I read somewhere, higher your IQ

the more you are likely to doze off behind the wheel since the brain does not get enough stimulus from driving. And I can't drive more than 1 hour anywhere before starting to doze off. Must be fault of my masters degree in mechanical engineering which is the category of people with the highest IQ's amongst all disciples tested.

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readmoreoften (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 12:05 AM Response to Reply #231

252. Oh yeah, you're a real genius. Biggest genius on DU.

That's why every word you utter sounds Republican. So what? I have three advanced graduate degrees from top ten institutions. I'm sure there're a lot of folks smarter than I am too. Go take your libertarian crap to libertarian underground. Mechanical engineer, huh? You don't seem to know much about people or labor or history. (And I seriously doubt that you're brighter than a physicist or a neurosurgeon so give me a break.)

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BigYawn (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 02:55 AM Response to Reply #252

253. I never said I was a genius or smarter than any one else, what

I said was I have a high IQ which simply is a reflection of how good you do in a test based mostly on cognitive analysis.

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phylny (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 02:14 PM Response to Reply #253

281. Or, how "well" even. n/t

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BleedingHeartPatriot (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 02:31 PM Response to Reply #281

286. ROFLMAO!

Edited on Wed Dec-21-05 02:31 PM by BleedingHeartPatriot Boo yah! MKJ :rofl:

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liberalhistorian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 12:47 AM Response to Reply #253

313. Yeah, but I'd hate to see the

scoring on any emotional intelligence and humanitarian intelligence test you took. God, no wonder why I always hated dating engineers!

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BigYawn (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 01:51 AM Response to Reply #313

316. Nice thing to say about a Hawkeye from

the neighboring state of Iowa :)

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BleedingHeartPatriot (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 10:12 AM Response to Reply #231

263. Wow, that is some impressive horn tootin' there, pardner!

Allow me to be the first to officially genuflect to the genius that is BigYawn. MKJ

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BigYawn (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 07:35 PM Response to Reply #263

295. I am forced to toot my own horn cuz no one else does

:beer:

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liberalhistorian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 12:48 AM Response to Reply #263

314. Given that he's an engineer,

I'd say his username is right on target! :evilgrin:

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BigYawn (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 02:03 AM Response to Reply #314

319. What do you have against engineers?

You must have not met the nicer ones who are hard working, loyal husbands/wives, know how to fix anything in the home, good providers, and...........in my case great lovers haha.

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Tesha (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 07:06 PM Response to Reply #231

294. I thought Judas had the highest IQ among the "disciples"

> Must be fault of my masters degree in mechanical engineering > which is the category of people with the highest IQ's amongst > all disciples tested. I thought Judas had the highest IQ among the "disciples". Maybe ME's are just the top of the poll in modesty, ehh? ;-) Tesha

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BigYawn (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 07:39 PM Response to Reply #294

296. You are good Tesha..

in finding my typo's!! But you knew I meant disciplines, right? I would love to have a beer with you and show you that I am really a lovable fuzzball. Peace.

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liberalhistorian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 12:45 AM Response to Reply #231

312. Yeah, and they're also the most

Edited on Thu Dec-22-05 12:49 AM by liberalhistorian boring, didactic, insufferable, arrogant, socially inept jerkoffs around, too. And believe me, I've been around enough of them to know. Of course, what do I know? I'm just an idiot with a BA in history and a paralegal certificate, who greatly enjoys driving, and certainly not the esteemed, distinguished, brilliant, genius type that I find myself in the company of. Good God, why am I even in this thread with such a unique, brilliant specimen of human intelligence; oh, lord, I am not even worthy enough to clean up the dots he leaves behind in cyberspace, let alone share the same thread with him. I'm being blinded by the light of his genius, HEEEELLLPPPP! AHHHHHHHH!!!!!! :sarcasm: :evilgrin:

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BigYawn (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 02:10 AM Response to Reply #312

321. I think you are secretly in love with

engineers who you wished to be with but got away? All this venom simply because I quoted a statistic from mensa? I never think of myself as superior to others in every respect. Surely we all are good at somethings but not everything. So, I do not feel superior to any one else simply based on a IQ test which is a very narrow test of one's overall abilities. So lady, please don't put us down, for I surely don't put you down. I am sure you are a very intelligent, compassionate and lovely human being.

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cap (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 11:31 AM Response to Reply #231

333. that's why they pay the bus drivers the big bucks

job too damn boring but it needs to be done properly. The subway is a nasty place to be day in and day out. It's dirty and the people are often nasty. Better to go sit as a guard in an art gallery. That's why they should get paid well. Go quit your job and do it -- not as a gig that you know one day will end; but as that's all you're ever going to do for decades. These guys are human beings, too. They get sick and get old. They need to have a little more. What I would like is the folks at Walmart to look at them and say, "Those guys are getting free health insurance and a modest contribution to a good pension. Why can't I have the same?"

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liberalhistorian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 12:31 AM Response to Reply #199

308. If a teacher screws up, they likely

won't kill anyone or put anyone's life at risk. But that's not true with a bus driver or subway conductor. When they have my life in their hands, I have no problem at all with them being paid well. And $35,000 a year is NOTHING in NYC, you could barely even afford rent and food with that. Heaven forbid people should actually have a living wage, especially those who are responsible for the lives of others every day on their job. And I'm speaking as the daughter of two teachers who would be absolutely furious at your attitude and would be in total disagreement.

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BigYawn (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 01:57 AM Response to Reply #308

317. My point was realtive earnings of a teacher:bus driver

If a teacher makes $50k, then a bus driver deserves only $35k. You are right in NYC that 35k will put you in poor house. If the bus drivers are being paid $60k in NYC then teachers there should average $85k+.

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nedbal (675 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 02:08 AM Response to Reply #317

320. then teachers there should average $85k+ , they do !

the 60 k is after years on the job, with as many years to get to the 60k , a teacher will get in the 8o's +

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liberalhistorian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 12:35 AM Response to Reply #199

309. Well, maybe if the

muckety-muck higher-ups who are vastly underworked and grossly overpaid would give a little instead of always taking it from the hide of the workers, they wouldn't have to worry about raising prices. And that's an old repub talking point, btw, that prices will rise if we actually have to give the workers anything, amazing that you're falling for it. They never seem to say that when management keeps giving themselves huge raises and perks. Once again, all together now, it's the workers, only and always the workers. Yeah, right. :eyes: :eyes:

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BigYawn (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 02:00 AM Response to Reply #309

318. I could'nt agree more that the CEO types are the modern era

robber barrons. We need a law to restrict the top salary in a corporation to be no more than...pick a number...times the lowest wages in that outfit.

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Dorian Gray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 11:43 PM Response to Reply #181

248. Hey, that's actually funny. NT

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 02:59 PM Response to Reply #32

143. kick

kick

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readmoreoften (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 04:22 PM Response to Reply #27

160. As a teacher in NYC...

I believe that the transit workers should be on strike. This isn't a zero sum game. Transit workers AND teachers should have fair working conditions. The real issue here is that these people get treated like garbage: disgusting underground bathrooms, dangerous work conditions, constant exposure to asbestos and rat-poison. Respect for one set of workers leads to greater respect for all workers. Don't use me to disparage the transit workers that shuffle me around all day and have to sit behind bullet proof glass so they don't get shot.

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fishwax (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:05 PM Response to Reply #160

210. Respect for one set of workers leads to greater respect for all workers

AMEN! :applause:

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FogerRox (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:55 PM Response to Reply #210

240. Right on Fish wax

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noamnety (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 10:41 PM Response to Reply #160

245. I'm also a teacher, and they make WAY more than me

and that's fine. I'd rather be in the relative comfort of my classroom than living what some people here seem to think is the life of luxury trapped 8 hours a day in a freezing cold (or sweltering hot) room barely larger than a phone booth, breathing in the sweet smell of body odor and stale urine. I don't understand why people think landing a job like that is like winning the lottery - as far as I'm concerned, it would be like flying overseas every single day - and the times I've done that, while it's true I was just "sitting on my ass," the reality is I was miserable and couldn't wait to get out of the plane. Being in solitary confinement is just "sitting on your ass". That doesn't mean it's a piece of cake or that it's pleasant. More importantly, I can't imagine feeling that my life as a teacher would be in some way improved if only the parents of my students made less money. How in the world would that help me?

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mcscajun (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 10:42 AM Response to Reply #160

265. Bravo! If we could recommend a single post, I'd be doing that now.

You said it! This isn't about divide and conquer; it's about respect for all workers.

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 05:44 PM Response to Reply #27

175. Again -- this has NOTHING to do with the MTA workers

Everyone should get paid more. I don't give a damn what they do. Why the elitist attitude towed the fare takers? It's an honest job.

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BronxBoy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:12 PM Response to Reply #27

196. All of them......

don't sit their asses in fare booths. Some of them maintain the tracks. Some of them drive busses or trains. Not everyone in the MTA is a fare taker

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november3rd (653 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 12:41 PM Response to Reply #9

132. So good

If they have it so good, why aren't you working with them?

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 05:42 PM Response to Reply #9

174. NIce worker solidarity there

Who CARES what they get paid? That's GREAT if they make alot of money. And, if every worker in this country stood behind these people now, a hell of a lot more people would get paid that much or more, and get decent benefits. And, paying ONE CENT into health care is too much for anyone. Good for them! Too many people on DU today seem jealous or/and petty over this strike, and unions in general. Sometimes we have to suck it up to make the world better. Solidarity! Workers of the world unite!

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:52 PM Response to Reply #174

205. if you increase the

if you increase the TWU salaries to what the TWU wants it would mean fare hikes and that is BAD for all NYCers. this isnt a private company nor one that works for a profit. it is a public agency. when you go to work for the MTA as a member of the TWU you know you do not have the right to strike. i posted the taylor law ona different post. but there are several alternatives the union could have done. they refused.

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readmoreoften (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:15 PM Response to Reply #205

213. No it wouldn't. Talking out your ass again.

The last .50 fare increase gave workers NOTHING. There's a billion dollar surplus and everyone knows the MTA books are cooked to hide profit. People say the same thing about the union at NYU "Oh, if teachers get a living wage, then our tuition's going to increase!" In 2001, when TA salaries went up from 10K a year to 19K a year, tuition wasn't raised. Unless you're an MTA accountant with proof that keeping retirement at 55 would 'bankrupt' the MTA, then STFU (respectfully)

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 01:33 PM Response to Reply #213

278. the MTA

isnt a corporation. they are a public entity. they definately need a full accounting of their books to figure out what is going on. (payoffs money under the table) the MTA isnt designed to run at a profit. it is supposed to run at zero sum (not a loss or profit) a fare increase can happen without giving the workers raises due to other issues (lowered funding from the federal, state and local governments) but increased costs could result in increased fares.

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 11:21 AM Response to Reply #205

330. It does work for a " profit"

The salaries of the suits. Giving the TWU what they want will not cause the fare to rise one cent UNLESS the corrupt leadership at the MTA wants more money in THEIR personal coffers. This si the old corporate propaganda. wah-wah. If the fares go up, blame the MTA, not the TWU.

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SpongeBob (105 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:47 PM Response to Reply #9

221. yeah...they need to be impeached! Spying on us too!

No, wait, this was W...I am confused... Does anyone feel some stinky winds of misdirection blowing here?

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robbedvoter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:48 PM Response to Reply #9

222. On the bright side, they don't have lawyer girlfriends, I bet!

So, you aced them, don't worry so. :nopity:

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druidity33 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 09:42 AM Response to Reply #9

261. you must be joking...

do you live in NY? 50k a year might barely pay for housing a family of four in Brooklyn, Bronx or somewhere... forget about Manhattan. As for having it made, Have you ever had a job underground sitting for 8-10 hours a day with little access to sunlight? A job where you are likely to encounter violence on a daily basis, and where your security rests on a tenuous balance between being locked in a glass booth (supposedly bulletproof, though not fireproof or airborne agent proof) and the response time of police personel. Having paid idiot consultants in the range of hundreds of dollars anhour, and lawyers equally... i think MTA workers are severely UNDERPAID. Think about it... they provide an ESSENTIAL service that is dangerous & thankless. Would that you could put yourself in their shoes for a little while, because it seems you know not from where you speak.

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phylny (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 02:19 PM Response to Reply #261

282. "Essential service" is the most important point of your post.

If this job wasn't so important, then 7 million people wouldn't be inconvenienced. In addition, if I'm not mistaken, the teachers and firefighters are working without a contract. It's possible that THAT'S what would have happened to the TWU if they hadn't decided to strike. Years and years working while nothing is done to settle a new contract.

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:05 AM Response to Reply #7

10. this is a very

militant union. this isnt a union that has problems or anything like that. this is one of the unions that gives other unions bad names. they are being greedy. the MTA offered 3% raises a year for 3 years (the union originally wanted 10 % a year lowered to 6%) that could be settled by spliting the difference. the main sticking point is that the workers dont want to pay more into the pension fund for new workers. and only for the first 10 years at that. the MTA even offered an additional holiday (MLK as a paid holiday. you work it you get double time plus holiday pay) the current leadership of the union was elected to take a more militant stand. well they got it. in authorizing a strike 1/3rd of the exec board opposed a strike. toussaint now faces possible jail time. the union will be fined at least 1 million dollars a day. workers will lose 3 days pay for each one struck. how does this strike benefit them at all? (2 days fined + 1 day lost pay) this isnt a class war of a big corporation against the little worker. this is a case of a public transit authority vs the workers (just to give you an example of what the union workers make now. the starting iron worker makes $25/hr. a train operator makes an average 45k before overtime. not exactly slave wages)

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Jersey Devil (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:26 AM Response to Reply #10

11. and then the next contract the MTA will want all workers to retire at 62

Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 07:33 AM by Jersey Devil and all workers to contribute to med costs and at a higher rate. Don't you understand that the union cannot allow their retirement benefits to be compromised because once the MTA gets its foot in the door it will want more and more in terms of givebacks. It is not "greed". The union simply will not sell out its young workers. Those on strike now, their pensions are safe. They are not striking for themselves but for future generations.

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:34 AM Response to Reply #11

12. Retiring at 62? Boo fucking hoo. eom

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Jersey Devil (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:38 AM Response to Reply #12

14. You want a union to give up generations of hard bargaining so you won't

be late for dinner. This is "Democratic" Underground? It would hardly seem so.

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:40 AM Response to Reply #14

16. You have NO CLUE what it's like in NYC without public transportation.

Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 07:42 AM by geek tragedy You have no idea how much the TWU is DELIBERATELY HURTING THOUSANDS OF WORKERS WHO MAKE MUCH LESS THAN THE AVERAGE TWU MEMBER. Buy a clue. The TWU is fighting to be overprivileged, not to fight for the basic rights of workers.

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Jersey Devil (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:47 AM Response to Reply #16

20. I walked to work during the last transit strike

from the Port Authority to 61st Street. It wasn't fun but I wouldn't sell union members out for my own personal comfort like you would. Get a pair of gloves, put on a hat, start walking and stop bitching. These workers have fought hard for a decent living and should not be asked to give it up for your momentary inconvenience.

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BlueCollar (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:49 AM Response to Reply #20

21. Thankyou for your comment

I'm a member of the TWU...different Local, different state but appreciate your support.

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Jersey Devil (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:55 AM Response to Reply #21

25. I am not a union member but know how important they are

A son of a member of Local #12, International Association of Heat and Frost Workers (pipe coverers). It wasn't only asbestos they had to fight.

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:53 PM Response to Reply #21

206. how do you feel

how do you feel that the national TWU is refusing to back the local TWU 100 and has in fact ordered the workers back to work (the locals are refusing so far)

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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:54 AM Response to Reply #20

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

 

Jersey Devil (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:57 AM Response to Reply #24

29. Then walk the Brooklyn Bridge, park at Yankee or Shea Stadiums

Starting tomorrow there will be trains taking people into Manhattan from those park and ride spots together with the Meadowlands in NJ and many other locations. If you work above 96th Street you can drive there alone if you want and if you work below find 3 other people to go with you.

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:04 AM Response to Reply #29

35. Do you know how far it is between central Brooklyn and midtown

Manhattan? Do you know how long it takes a healthy person, let alone someone with a physical disabilty, to walk that far? I'm guessing no.

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400Years (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 12:48 PM Response to Reply #35

135. It will be much more inconvenient when the middle class is gone

you are acting very myopic.

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 05:53 PM Response to Reply #135

180. Purposely, I think

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FogerRox (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:57 PM Response to Reply #20

241. Right on Jersey Devil

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TomClash (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:16 AM Response to Reply #16

42. So must everything be reduced to the lowest common denominator

Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 08:16 AM by TomClash So transit workers must forego the right to strike and give back benefits because other workers are forced to do so? How does that make sense?

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:17 AM Response to Reply #42

45. I think that when you take a public service job like teaching, being a

cop or firefighter, or a transit worker, you don't intentionally hurt the public by striking. The teachers, cops, and firefighters were all responsible and decent enough not to engage in collective punishment. The TWU doesn't share this sense of responsibility.

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TomClash (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:37 AM Response to Reply #45

69. The City went $350m over budget to pay for the teachers' raise

And the teachers did not reduce their pension rights. The police got 10.25% over two years. The firefighters got 5% in each of the first two years of their deal. None of them knew the size of the City's current budget surplus, which is enormous. The TWU knows. Ed Watt sits on the MTA Board. Plus you have to factor in 2002.

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:49 AM Response to Reply #69

83. Teachers STILL make less than bus drivers. And it's the bus drivers

who are the ones screwing the city over by going on strike. The bus drivers can go fuck themselves.

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Bridget Burke (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:20 AM Response to Reply #83

104. So agitate for raising the Teachers' pay...

If you really care for them.

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 05:54 PM Response to Reply #104

183. But GT doesn't, that's the thing -- GT only dislikes the MTA

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phylny (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 02:24 PM Response to Reply #83

285. Well, Paris Hilton makes more money than I do, and I have three

Edited on Wed Dec-21-05 02:25 PM by phylny degrees. Not fair, not fair! I'm more qualified! Heh.

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:43 AM Response to Reply #69

112. not the city budget

the MTA budget. the MTA is a state agency not a city agency. there should be by court order a full public accounting of the MTA books.

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TomClash (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:56 AM Response to Reply #112

118. The city pays the Teachers

not the MTA. You misread the post.

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 12:07 PM Response to Reply #118

122. i was responding to

a different post not yours :)

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Dorian Gray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:29 AM Original message

Geek...

That's what's killing me about this. This is hurting those that need to work the most. This is hurting those that have no alternate means of transportation. This is hurting the very workers the strike is trying to protect. The people who it is not hurting? The NYC millionaire's who took this week off to go skiing in the Alps with their families because they heard there might be a strike the week of Christmas. I'm sorry. I'm bitter. I have to deal with it. (Luckily, I can work from home today. But, it makes everything inconvenient and horrible!)

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drdtroit (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 11:57 PM Response to Original message

251. "But, it makes everything inconvenient and horrible!"

Then that should make you appreciate the people who do these jobs all the more and support them. IMHO :patriot:

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:13 AM Response to Reply #16

99. thousands

hells try 7.5 million people who use public transit everyday.

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readmoreoften (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 04:30 PM Response to Reply #16

163. Oh yeah you're the ONLY NEW YORKER on this board...

I live in NYC and I support the TWU because if they don't hold their ground there'll be across the board losses for middle and lower income workers in this city. Basic rights for workers are health care and a goddamn pension plan. Oh pity. You're inconvenienced. My heart breaks for you. Why don't you direct your anger at the MTA for cooking the books for so long, eroding employee trust.

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fishwax (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:10 PM Response to Reply #163

212. Why don't you direct your anger at the MTA

Damn good question!

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 05:52 PM Response to Reply #16

179. Would you break a picket line, too?

If it was say, in front of your favorite store? Or restaurant? I bet you you would.

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phylny (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 02:21 PM Response to Reply #16

284. Maybe they're worth every single penny because you and other

are so inconvenienced.

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Malikshah (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 12:48 AM Response to Reply #16

315. Then move out of the city. It's the price people pay.

Lord knows the rest of the country hears about NYC 24/7. And frankly, I, for one, am way over it. *looks for his 'I don't care how they do it in NYC' button* ;) Seriously, though--life is rough all over and the greater good is being fought for-- hang together or hang separately

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liberalhistorian (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 10:59 AM Response to Reply #16

325. Well, there you have it.

You're apparently too dense to realize that seven million people are being inconvenienced BECAUSE their jobs are important. If what they did weren't important and didn't provide such a service, millions wouldn't be "inconvenienced." And boo fucking hoo on that, btw, so people actually have to use their legs and walk, sounds like a lot of crybabies to me.

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 05:51 PM Response to Reply #12

178. Yeah, it is boo hoo

WTF is WRONG with you? Why are you against worker rights? Everyone should be able to retire at 55 or younger with a nice pension, to enjoy life, not die on the job. I'm going to have to literally work until I'm 70-75, or starve to deathg... unless I win the lottery. But I so do not begrudger the MTA workers this. Good for them! And, it is a slippery slope.

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tedzbear (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 01:52 PM Response to Reply #11

279. The MTA demands are a trap.

If union agrees to new workers paying 6% of their pension costs while current workers don't, this will result in the current workers getting laid off so the MTA can hire more new workers and save money. This two tiered wage and benefit scam allows the greedy owners to steal even more money from their workers. I would strike too if I were a current employee of the MTA. They are not stupid. Also, I am annoyed by the cherry picking of statistics that anti-union posters manipulate to try and make the workers look unreasonable.

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BlueCollar (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:39 AM Response to Reply #10

15. maybe you should do a little research on Mike Quill..eom

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TomClash (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:20 AM Response to Reply #10

49. $25/hr

before overtime tanslates into $45K for an apprentice. You are comparing that to someone on the job 10 years.

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druidity33 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 09:52 AM Response to Reply #10

262. 1/3 of the exec board...

didn't want the strike. Did the membership ever vote? What was the percentage there?

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NorthELiberal (125 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:02 AM Response to Reply #7

34. The TWU has shown........

that when someone says they will strike they are not just bluffing........ That will help unions everywhere. I live in NYC and I and my whole family have to walk........ if it lasts only 2-3 days, it was worth it. SUPPORT THE UNION!!!!!!!!! New York DUers can visit the local strike locations and tell the workers they are supported. The workers are facing stiff fines (and possibly jail for the higher ups), so they would appreciate the public support. http://twulocal100.blogspot.com/2005/12/twu-local-100-strike-assignments.html

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robbedvoter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:37 AM Response to Reply #34

68. I tried to post a supportive comment, but that's disabled

Probably due to the entire viewership of Faux having posted there.

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Dorian Gray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:23 AM Response to Reply #7

56. But that's the thing, Madhound...

Most people seem to believe that management has actually conceeded quite readily, and the strike is just sour grapes by an organization who wants to bleed the people of NYC dry.

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TomClash (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:29 AM Response to Reply #7

63. THIS IS ALL ABOUT 2002

When Toussaint got hosed by that Rich Real Estate Repuke Peter Kalikow, who lied about not having money to give them a decent raise. Toussaint barely survived after that. So he has to get an above average raise to compensate for the loss in 2002.

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muchacho (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:39 AM Response to Original message

5. I'm starting to agree

I need details but I know I'm going to be late for work and my daughter's play has been cancelled.

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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:41 AM Response to Reply #5

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

 

geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:43 AM Response to Reply #17

18. The TWU is deliberately hurting the working poor of NYC.

The TWU make plenty of $$ as it is. The TWU aren't targeting the rich or corporations. They're deliberately hurting the people of this city.

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Bridget Burke (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:57 AM Response to Reply #18

28. So complain to the MTA...

They aren't hurting at all. Do you think any of the executives will take a cut in pay? The Union is fighting for medical care & pensions--& the future of new employees. Raising the retiremant age can be pretty important when jobs require physical effort. What do YOU do for a living?

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:00 AM Response to Reply #28

31. Yeah, the MTA isn't hurting at all.

I thought DU'ers opposed illegal acts of collective punishment.

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Bridget Burke (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:22 AM Response to Reply #31

53. Everyone has a different view of what DU'ers think.

You're free to have your opinion. And I'm free not to share it.

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Hello_Kitty (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:45 AM Response to Reply #17

19. Thank you.

So many R/W anti-worker talking points going I thought I WAS reading Free Republic.

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NNN0LHI (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:10 AM Response to Reply #19

39. You can tell we have some management folks posting here

They won't admit who they are. But fuck them anyway. Don

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Jersey Devil (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:18 AM Response to Reply #39

46. TA has a billion dollar suplus and they want big union give backs

Those selfish union workers! Who the hell are these posters? Is Peter Kalikow a DU member?

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:24 AM Response to Reply #46

107. the surplus

Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 09:25 AM by sabbat hunter should be given back to the riders not to the TWU. people should remember it isnt as if the members of the TWU were getting a bad deal. 10% raise spread over 3 years, keeping the retirement age at 55 the only proviso that new workers pay 6% of salary for the first 10 years into the pension instead of 3%. hard to have sympathy with that. and now the workers will suffer with a loss of 3 days pay for each one struck (2 days to fines 1 day for missing work)

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 05:59 PM Response to Reply #39

185. Oh yeah, definitely

Fuck them. I'm so tired of the workers in this country getting screwed... and seeing it here on DU is sickening. It's not debate or discussion, it's pandering.

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sir_captain (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 03:45 PM Response to Reply #19

147. Have you considered who *rides* the subway

it's not white-collar workers. It's the *working people* of the city. *They're* the one's getting screwed in this. It's the people who commute from the outer boroughs every day and don't have a fucking car who are going to lose their jobs if they don't spend 4 hours walking in the cold in each direction. Are you seriously so thick that you can't figure that out? Fuck the MTA. I wish they gave the TWU exactly what the union wanted. I really do. Those guys who drive the buses and trains deserve everything they can get--but that said, this strike is fucking over millions and millions of people--and most of them are working class. So get over yourself.

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readmoreoften (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 04:25 PM Response to Reply #147

162. Everyone uses the subway

White collar workers use the subways as much as anyone else. The TWU use the subway too!

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Hello_Kitty (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 04:33 PM Response to Reply #147

164. Yeah, you're right. The hell with unions.

Decent wages, benefits, and worker protections are cool as long as no one gets inconvenienced by them. :eyes:

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 05:56 PM Response to Reply #17

184. It does seem like FR or yahoo boards on here today

If you are not pro-union/pro labor you are NOT a DEm/lib/progressive... whatever term you like. That's it. No wriggle room on this one.

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Jersey Devil (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:51 AM Response to Reply #5

22. Concert cancelled - Oh, the humanity!

God forbid that anyone should be inconvenienced in the slightest degree so that the transit workers can maintain their standard of living. Let them eat cake.

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:55 AM Response to Reply #22

26. How about the hundreds of thousands of working people

who CAN'T get to their jobs? But, you don't give a fuck about those workers. Just like the TWU doesn't give a fuck about them, or this city.

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Jersey Devil (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:59 AM Response to Reply #26

30. How many really "can't" get to their jobs?

Sure it will be tiring and sure it will take longer and many will be inconvenienced but after a day or so everyone will work around it. Don't sell these families out just to avoid a small amount of personal inconvenience.

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:02 AM Response to Reply #30

33. When you've lived in an outer borough, then you'd be qualified

to make such a pronouncement. As things stand, you simply don't know what you're talking about.

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Jersey Devil (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:09 AM Response to Reply #33

38. Where do you live that you cannot get to Manhattan?

The LIRR is running so you have no excuse if you live on LI. If you live in Brooklyn or Queens you can get there by train, Staten Island by Ferry, NJ by train, bus and ferry via park & rides. You can car pool with 3 other people who work someplace near you and drive in. There are all kinds of alternatives but you just don't want to bother.

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:21 AM Original message

Again, that sounds real easy until you actually live in an outer borough.

The LIRR makes one stop in Manhattan. Did you know that? And if you live on the wrong end of Staten Island, how do you get to the ferry? I'm sure this seems real simple for someone living in freaking Jersey, but it isn't.

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Jersey Devil (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:25 AM Response to Original message

59. Grand Central, but in the last post your couldn't even get to Manhattan

You must have put your shoes on. From Grand Central you should be able to walk to just about any business area in midtown if you are healthy. If not, then car pool with your neighbors since most of them probably also work in NYC. If you live on the "wrong end" of Staten Island drive to the other side. They DO have cars in Staten Island, don't they? Or, you could take a train and come in via the Lincoln or Holland Tunnels through NJ. As I said, there are lots of alternatives. Too bad I am not someone you can bullshit into thinking it is impossible.

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:46 AM Response to Reply #22

113. getting into the city

just doubled in cost. a subway fare costs 2 bucks each way. during the strike taking the LIRR from a queens station is 4 bucks each way. for some that extra 4 bucks a day is the difference if they eat that day or not..

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readmoreoften (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 04:49 PM Response to Reply #22

170. Well, if everyone is so outraged

why don't you call the MTA and tell them to negotiate with these people in good faith. That means not rolling back their retirement age or making them pay 6% of their salaries a year into a pension plan. Bitching on DU isn't going to do shit.

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ChavezSpeakstheTruth (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:07 AM Response to Original message

37. Oh no I have to walk and that $1,000,000 surplus shouldn't go to the worke

Puhleeze!

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stray cat (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:30 AM Response to Reply #37

64. Tax payers massively subsidize transit

How about the surplus going to them or the city. It doesn't make enough to pay for its own operation.

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:59 AM Response to Reply #37

119. i have to

i have to pay double to get in now. the surplus shouldnt go to the workers it should be returned to whence it came. the riders of the MTA lines.

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ChavezSpeakstheTruth (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:37 PM Response to Reply #119

235. why?

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Dorian Gray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:17 AM Response to Original message

44. Right now, that's how I'm feeling,

Sabaat.... I feel angry and frustrated that our wonderful city is being held hostage by a union that is asking for unreasonable demands. I keep questioning whether I am wrong, but it seems that the MTA actually tried to work with them, and they just held their ears and screamed until they (didn't) get what they wanted.

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Jersey Devil (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:21 AM Response to Reply #44

50. What "unreasonable" demands?

They are being asked to have new members work an additional 7 years before they are eligible for retirement. That is the biggest sticking point. Should the current workers sell out future generations? How would you react if your son was told he had to work another 7 years longer than you do in order to retire?

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:21 AM Response to Reply #50

52. Retirement at 62 isn't unreasonable. eom

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Bridget Burke (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:25 AM Response to Reply #52

58. Later retirement can be tougher for physically active jobs.

And most transit jobs require more work than sitting in a booth. What's your job? Where do you live? How will the strike affect you, personally?

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:29 AM Response to Reply #58

62. I'm telecommuting today. But my fiancee, who is physically disabled,

has to stay at home while this is going on. She's an attorney who represents battered women living in poverty. She also makes less than the average TWU'er. Despite having incurred substantial debt to get her law degree. Of course, her clients are unable to meet with her. Their court appearances have to be rescheduled--which is not a mere 'inconvenience' for women with two kids and a minimum wage job. So, neither of us has a lot of sympathy for folks who break the law by taking a job vital to the public interest and then pissing on the public interest.

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Bridget Burke (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:32 AM Response to Reply #62

66. Can't you do something to help your fiancee get to work?

If you were, that would be an "inconvenience." But the strike doesn't affect telecommuters at all. Where--exactly--do you live?

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:38 AM Response to Reply #66

70. My fiancee works in the Bronx--we live in Brooklyn.

And, there's nothing I can really do for her, since her disability causes her severe joint pain and inflammation--especially in her knees. She nominally counts as one person affected by the strike, but that doesn't count her clients, their children, etc etc.

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Bridget Burke (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:39 AM Response to Reply #70

75. Since you can telecommute, why don't you consider moving?

It would help in the long run. Of course, you've pointed out that your fiancee doesn't get paid very much. Do you consider her job less important?

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:51 AM Response to Reply #75

86. Her job is the reason we've stayed in NYC--she believes in

helping her clients. Her career is going very well, which doesn't necessarily translate into a decent salary in the world of public interest law practice. I'm telecommuting today--tomorrow the LIRR should be running trains so that I can get into Manhattan.

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readmoreoften (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 04:35 PM Response to Reply #86

165. I'm sure she's not going to be fired.

Give it a rest and let the TWU do what they have to do.

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 07:17 AM Response to Reply #165

256. The TWU is going to get its back broken because of this, and that's okay

with me. Even their own parent union isn't standing with them.

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 10:50 AM Response to Reply #256

267. Well, you just really answered the question I had about you

If you were just pissed off at the strike, or if you were anti labor/union in general. Your answer shows it's the latter. And, argue all you want that that's not true, because it is: NO LIBERAL wants to see a union broken for any reason. Period. You know, I would at least respect your right to your opinion if you would be honest about your agenda/POV.

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readmoreoften (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:20 PM Response to Reply #62

214. Sorry, if you're fiancee has a law degree and is an attorney

(and YES even an attorney working for lower wages) then you can afford to splurge and pay for the cab fare to get her to work. Sorry. I make $19 a year, I live in Manhattan, I have heaps of debt and I'm figuring out a way to support the strikers. Go cry somewhere else. Preferably to the MTA.

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Dorian Gray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:39 AM Response to Reply #58

74. It could be tougher...

if it were a problem. But, the MTA agreed to keep the retirement age at 55 last night.

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Jersey Devil (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:49 AM Response to Reply #74

84. That's what they said publicly but I don't think so

I think they misrepresented that. I spoke to a TWU member this morning and he said they are still sticking to the new workers retiring at 62 instead of 55.

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Dorian Gray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:57 AM Response to Reply #84

90. Well, they are reporting that on the news...

So, I don't think the MTA could go back on that if they wanted to now. (If they did, they'd look like complete assholes.)

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readmoreoften (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 04:38 PM Response to Reply #90

166. Labor negotiations move so quickly and so much is hidden...

There is no way that you can know what's going on just by reading an AP article. Last month an AP article said that NYU employees make $50,000 a year total, when that really meant $19,000 plus benefits. Also, a government agency has much more power to get it's message out than a union.

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tedzbear (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 02:06 PM Response to Reply #166

280. Thank you for the clarification!!

"Last month an AP article said that NYU employees make $50,000 a year total, when that really meant $19,000 plus benefits. Also, a government agency has much more power to get it's message out than a union." Yes, the corporate media doesn't mention the breakdown of how they arrive at the $50,000 a year figure. This is typical manipulation of the facts in order to make readers side with greedy corporate interests. If they told the truth most readers would definitely side with the strikers.

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readmoreoften (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 04:38 PM Response to Reply #90

167. delete

Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 04:39 PM by readmoreoften

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Dorian Gray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:39 AM Response to Reply #52

73. It's not that unreasonable...

But that wasn't even on the table any more. The MTA AGREED LAST NIGHT to keep the retirement age at 55.

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:02 PM Response to Reply #52

187. Yes it is -- for everyone

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Dorian Gray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:38 AM Response to Reply #50

71. They agreed to keep the retirement age

at 55! That was agreed to last night. They want people to pay 6% for 10 years into their HEALTHCARE plans. Sorry, but I can not sympathize with anyone who fights against that. I know you can claim it's a slippery slope, but these workers have a much better healthcare plan that the majority of New Yorkers. What they would have to pay would be minimal, and it would be MORE than covered by their yearly wage increase. The MTA caved in LAST night about the 55 year old retirement age. So, that's not an issue anymore.

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Dorian Gray (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:41 AM Response to Reply #71

78. Sorry...

I know I sound like a broken record. But, I am currently listening to the news about this, and they keep repeating what I'm repeating. :) I just want people to be aware of that because it's being brought up as one of the things that the MTA is wrong about.

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:47 AM Response to Reply #71

114. not the health care plan

into the pension plan. they health care plan would remain the same with zero paid by the workers.

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:27 AM Response to Reply #50

108. the MTA

changed that demand lowered it back to 55 where it is now. the TWU wants it lowered to 50.

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TomClash (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:21 AM Response to Reply #44

51. How do you know that? nt

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robbedvoter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:23 AM Response to Original message

54. MTA's offer: "If we can screw you, why not?" They have a surplus

and offered a renewal where rights are taken off. Nothing was reasonable there. This is Bush's America - and if you love the corporate pigs, i hope you have the wealth to back that love up, cuz otherwise you're next.

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DoYouEverWonder (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:24 AM Response to Original message

57. The TWU was the only union that I saw march in DC in Sept

to oppose Bush and the war. They sure didn't look like they were overpaid and it doesn't seem that they are asking too much since the MTA is rolling in dough. They supported us, I think they deserve our support too.

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calico1 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:31 AM Response to Reply #57

65. On Air America this morning

Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 08:41 AM by calico1 Mark Riley was talking about how the MTA is eliminating jobs. For example, they are eliminating booth workers and replacing them with machines. Also they want to consolidate a lot of job titles so that you can be a driver one day and clean busses the next for example. I totally support unions. I don't support scabs or whiners who just think about their own immediate needs. Keep supporting big business and then don't complain when your pension disappears, when your salary gets cut or job totally eliminated or when you are forced to retire earlier than you want or can afford. This is what is happening in America. But God forbid our immediate needs get interrupted. Better to bust all the unions than be late to the concert or wherever else we are going, right?:eyes: spelling

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ohio_liberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:39 AM Response to Reply #65

76. Good post!

:thumbsup: I can't fucking believe the union bashing I'm seeing here.

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:53 AM Response to Reply #65

87. The MTA isn't a private entity--it's taxpayer funded.

And getting rid of the booth operators is one of the few good ideas the MTA has had. Until someone can show me why a bus driver should make more than a teacher, I'm not going to support the TWU.

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ohio_liberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:02 AM Response to Reply #87

93. OMFG

You want them to lay down because they just shouldn't make more than a teacher? OMG, with all the issues with fair pay and fair benefits and the decline of unions posted daily on DU, you're not going to support a union because they're going to make more than teachers? Have you considered that maybe a show of strength by this union will give other unions more power, and then maybe those teachers can get decent pay and benefits in the future too? Or are your concerns really about the temporary inconvenience to you and yours?

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geek tragedy (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:06 AM Response to Reply #93

94. The teachers didn't break the law and strike. Same thing with

the cops and the firefighters. I don't think bus drivers SHOULD make more than $63,000.

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NNN0LHI (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:14 AM Response to Reply #94

100. How much do you think you deserve to make? n/t

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calico1 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:11 AM Response to Reply #87

97. So going by your logic

we should support lower wages and job cuts because some of them make more than teachers? What people like you miss is the big picture. When labor wins, workers win. When big business wins, workers lose. The effects of the weakening of labor unions is plain to see. Pensions are being cut left and right, even by companies that are very well off. Medical insurance is being cut or limited. Wages are stagnant in many companies. Many workers are being forced to take job cuts. Jobs are being outsourced. Why? It has a lot to do with union busting and unions disappearing. But you go ahead and support big business.

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:04 PM Response to Reply #97

188. That's GT's logic...

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calico1 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:58 PM Response to Reply #188

207. That is who I was responding to.

Sorry if it came out as a response to you. I thought I did it right!

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:32 AM Response to Reply #65

110. this isnt what is happening here

they arent consolidating titles to the point where you drive a bus one day and clean it the next. what they are trying to do is have only one person trains like they do in many other cities. no jobs will be lsot. also they arent losing any salary or job eliminations. they can retire at 55 with full pay.

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tsuki (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 04:51 PM Response to Reply #65

171. Like with the UPS strike, it is always more than management and

the "media" tell you. The media so-called journalists seem to leave out a lot of small details like job security, full time employment, lay-offs of employees first hired. No the media just focuses on the money, sometimes the least part of what is actually going on. Look at Overnite Trucking and their employees, what they did to them for trying to organize. And you think Bed, Bath and Beyond is blue? I stand with the Union, not the lying Corporate theives and their shrill stable of a so-called journalists.

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robbedvoter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:39 AM Response to Reply #57

72. I was supporting them before too, but it's good to know

Especially for those informed by Fox

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jackstraw45 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 12:06 PM Response to Reply #57

121. With those great benefits, they had the vacation day to use...

:)

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Bridget Burke (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:36 AM Response to Original message

67. So--the telecommuters aren't hurting--even though they're complaining.

Is it true that people can get paid for posting online?

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BurtWorm (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:40 AM Response to Original message

77. There must be a reason why they're willing to go through this, don't you

think? You think they're doing it for fun?

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calico1 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:48 AM Response to Reply #77

81. I'm sure its just for fun.

They face getting two days pay docked for each day they strike, plus possible jail time and fines. Doesn't that sound like something you would do just for the hell of it?:sarcasm:

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robbedvoter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:48 AM Response to Original message

82. No, screw you and the MTA you ride on.

It's attitudes like these that gave us a GOP mayor. The good people in this city just get disgusted and stop voting or doing anything for their rights. MTA has been screwing all of us, now they are screwing their employees. They offered a new contract with LESS benefits - if you think that's reasonable, you get that!

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ohio_liberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:01 AM Response to Reply #82

92. delete

Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 09:01 AM by ohio_liberal Posted in the wrong place. :(

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Czolgosz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:55 AM Response to Original message

88. Whatever we do, let's don't stand by one another in a show of unity.

What if the TWU said -- "the Republicans made a very fair offer that gays cannot marry but they can visit each other in hospitals and can name each other as beneficiaries in their wills. . . " "the Republicans made a very fair offer that Roe v. Wade would remain the law of the land for women who have the written consent from their husbands and exercise that right in the first trimester after taking a class to warn them of the alleged health risks from abortions. . ." "the Republicans made a very fair offer that we'll drill for oil in ANWAR but there will be no strip mining for coal. . ."

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robbedvoter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:58 AM Response to Reply #88

91. Beautifully said! And very appropriately.

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:06 PM Response to Reply #88

190. LOts of people on DU would LOVE that -- they said some

stuff like this after the 2004 election.

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QC (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:09 AM Response to Original message

95. Liberals of Convenience.

That's what a lot of you are. Many of you have bennies, a 40hour week, and the like because earlier generations of union men and women fought for them, but now, if you are inconvenienced for a few days, to hell with the unions! I feel like I wandered into Freak Republik this morning.

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NNN0LHI (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:12 AM Response to Reply #95

98. Yes it is is pretty sickening to witness n/t

Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 09:12 AM by NNN0LHI

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calico1 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:15 AM Response to Reply #95

101. Exactly.

Nearly every benefit we have today is because of labor unions. Minimum wage, 40 hour work weeks, safety in the work place, medical insurance, pensions. And the reason why we are beginning to lose them is because of the success of union busting. Some people can't see past their noses and see the big picture. Like good little republicans, they won't get a clue unless and until they are directly affected.

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:06 PM Response to Reply #101

191. And many of them bled and even died for us -- SHAME

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Douglas Carpenter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:31 AM Response to Reply #95

109. I agree

This is a shameful post

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Dutch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 12:10 PM Response to Reply #95

124. Well said!!!

I can't believe some of the reactionary garbage that's being spewed up on this thread.

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:07 PM Response to Reply #124

192. On many, many threads today

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Beelzebud (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 12:36 PM Response to Reply #95

131. EXACTLY! Whiney spoiled brats.

If they had been around during the industrial revolution, I shudder to think what our nation would look like today...

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Celeborn Skywalker (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 01:29 PM Response to Reply #95

139. Good post!

:thumbsup:

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readmoreoften (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:26 PM Response to Reply #95

215. Yeah, it sickens me, too.

Toughen the fuck up, people. Oh yeah-- it's the WORKING CLASS who are oppressing the poor with their damn strikes and demands to retire at 55 from a job sweeping garbage off the third rail. You really hit it on the nose. If you want the strike to end quickly, STFU, call Pataki et al and tell these people to bargain with the TWU. I've gotten so sick of NYC latte liberals I could vomit in a sewer. If the shoe fits, wear it.

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BiggJawn (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:16 AM Response to Original message

102. "Very fair offer"....S'Yeah.

3%. Oh, yeah, and how much will inflation eat up? 2? 2-1/2%? And this comes behind HOW many years of "raises" that didn't keep up? Wanna bet the Management chose to give themselves 3% for the next 3 years? "normally i support unions wholeheartedly but in this case the TWU is being ridiculous." Take the cab, then. What I read into that is "I support the Unions as long as their Job Actions don't inconvenience ME..."

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:34 AM Response to Reply #102

111. they are being ridiculous

with their demands that the retirement age be LOWERED to 50 and saying they wont pay more into the pension or anything for health care. how many unions can even claim that?

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BiggJawn (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 12:01 PM Response to Reply #111

120. You only THINK they're being "ridiculous".

Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 12:05 PM by BiggJawn I imagine people thought Walter Reuther was batshit-crazy for thinking that his auto workers should be paid a rate 1-1/2 times their base rate for all hours worked over 40, too. "How many Unions can even claim that?" Somebody has to be First. Ray-Guns tried to cut the nuts off of Organized Labour with the PATCO debacle, and the Unions have been stretching their scrots out to make it easier on Capital ever since. And when one Local remembers what kind of sacrifices got them to where they are today, we have so-called "Progressives" calling them ridiculous because they have to take the cab or walk in the cold...

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 04:13 PM Response to Reply #102

154. i cannot afford

Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 04:15 PM by sabbat hunter to take a cab. that would cost about 50 bucks round trip each day. can you afford that? the TWU is screwing all of NYC if the TWU gets all they want it will result in higher fares for NYCers. how is that a good thing? the union is being fined 1million per day everyday of the strike.

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newportdadde (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:21 AM Response to Original message

105. I'm conflicted on this but I have to support the Unions.

The raises irks me I'll admit that I'm jealous. I haven't had a 3% raise in 5 years, mostly 1.5 or at best 2%, and my healthcare premium I pay in has DOUBLED since 2004 mostly eating that 'raise' up. However I am smart enough to realize the ramifications of this not only for that union but to others and then on down the line to those of us who aren't unionized. So given all of that I full support the strike and wish the union well. For the New Yorkers out there trying to get around I feel for you as well its not going to be fun.

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julialnyc (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:49 AM Response to Reply #105

116. I agree with you

i am conflicted, but i will have to support the unions (just sucks when I hear from a 6 month pregnant friend who had to walk 60 blocks to work.... she won't leave her job before pregnancy leave starts for fear of her job security)

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rug (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:21 AM Response to Original message

106. You can always move back to Long Island.

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 04:17 PM Response to Reply #106

156. i moved to astoria

because it is cheaper to live and commute (normally) than long island. icannot afford tolive out in the suburbs. the extra money i will have to lay out each day will be a huge financial drain, may bankrupt some. this strike must end! NOW!

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:09 PM Response to Reply #156

193. No, it must not

God, the reactionary stuff people are saying here!

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:00 PM Response to Reply #193

208. what reactionary stuff

what reactionary stuff did i say? the TWU is not allowed to strike under the law. they are causing problems for 7.5 million workers many of whom are blue collar workers. they are hurting the common people and the workers of the union with the 2 for 1 fines. meanwhile toussaint gets paid whether the workers are on strike or not. same for kalikow. they should withhold pay from kalikow and toussaint until the strike is resolved and then lock the two of them in a room with no food/drink or bathroom until it a deal is done. peace david

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MidnightWind (428 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:49 AM Response to Original message

115. Wow--did DU go Republican overnight?

I can't believe I'm reading what I'm reading here this morning. WTF?

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ohio_liberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:50 AM Response to Reply #115

117. Yes, apparently it did

I woke up this morning and found bizarro world. :crazy:

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jackstraw45 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 12:08 PM Response to Reply #115

123. Just because it's a union, we don't have to be ROBOTS

Jeez, have you READ the offer? Take a F*CKING look around - pensions are being killed left and right, workers fired, vacation cut short, retirements delayed. The offer on the table seemed fair to a lot of us - if not being a robot to support ANY strike at ANY time seems republican to you...well, you're not SHAMING me.

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Dutch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 12:10 PM Response to Reply #115

125. Sure looks like it!

:(

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Puglover (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 12:17 PM Response to Reply #115

128. Bring up the death penalty...

then you'll have your eyes opened...LOL

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Dutch (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 12:14 PM Response to Original message

126. This thread is a total f*****g embarrasment

I can't believe some of the anti-worker filth I've had to wade through here. It's certainly not compatible with being a progressive. In fact, it's just despicable.

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NNN0LHI (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 12:17 PM Response to Original message

127. As a 30+ year UAW member I never much cared for anti-union suck asses

I stand in support in my fellow union brothers and sisters of the TWU. Don

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ronnykmarshall (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 12:25 PM Response to Original message

129. mmmmm! mmmmm!

Nice tasty popcorn! :popcorn:

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Shakespeare (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 12:34 PM Response to Original message

130. Wanna know what's wrong with our party? It's right here in this thread.

I am stunned at the anti-union sentiment I'm reading here. These fights are hard for everybody, but if you don't understand why they have to be fought, I'm not sure why you're here. I support the strike.

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 01:08 PM Response to Reply #130

136. the parent union

the international TWU is distanting itself from the local 100 TWU. the international says they did not authorize nor do they support this strike by local 100. the judge who is handing down fines agrees and will not hold the parent union in contempt of court. the local union probably will be fined 30 million dollars per day as allowed under the taylor law. a couple of days of that and the union will be bankrupt.

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Shakespeare (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 01:35 PM Response to Reply #136

140. "A couple of days of that and the union will be bankrupt"

You do know that's what the bosses want, don't you? :eyes:

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 02:39 PM Response to Reply #140

141. the bosses

is a public agency. if too much is given to the union fares will rise more rapidly than currently budgeted. so in essense the 'bosses' are the 7.5 million communters that rely on MTA transit everyday.

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Shakespeare (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 03:39 PM Response to Reply #141

145. HAHAHAHA

"in essence the 'bosses' are the 7.5 million commuters" That's a lovely thought, but in reality, no, they aren't. Have you had direct input on the negoitiations? Ah, no. And I don't think the union is in ANY danger of getting too much....hence the strike.

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 04:10 PM Response to Reply #145

153. the TWU

Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 04:11 PM by sabbat hunter demanded 8% raises each year for 3 years and LOWERING the retirement age to 50. you dont think that is asking for too much? the TWU is screwing the entire city over with their illegal strike.

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readmoreoften (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 04:46 PM Response to Reply #153

169. The TWU has not DEMANDED that the retirement age be lowered to 50

When you negotiate you start from the OPTIMAL DESIRED OUTCOME that you want to achieve (say retirement at 50 for workers in dangerous conditions) and then SETTLE somewhere in the middle (not raising retirement age from 55 to 62). If you start negotiating with what you really expect (don't raise our retirement age from 55 to 62) then you get nothing. You know nothing about labor negotiations, so why don't you read some books on the history of the progressive movement in America before you continue with these pro-corporate republican-style posts. The MTA are corrupt and need to be held accountable. The world doesn't revolve around your convenience. And yes I'm a fellow NYC resident.

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:11 PM Response to Reply #141

195. No, it's the bosses, who make a huge amount of money

And don't give a damn about the workers or the commuters, just their fat checks, political favors, and kickbacks. That's it. Solidarity!

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DefenseLawyer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:23 PM Response to Reply #141

203. If the boss

has a billion dollars in the bank, it seems to me that either fares were already too high or wages were too low.

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deadcenter (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:40 PM Response to Reply #203

218. or,

the public subsidy of the transit system was too high? shouldn't the surplus be returned to the people that paid the taxes that created the surplus because the subsidy was too high?

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Beelzebud (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 01:09 PM Response to Reply #130

137. I know what you mean. Some of these ppl sound like Reaganites.

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blindpig (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 01:17 PM Response to Reply #130

138. Yep, the DLC/Progressive debate in concrete terms.

If you can't support labor against management.......

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 02:44 PM Response to Reply #130

142. its not anti union

its pro public. 7.5 million people each day rely on the mass transit each day. many with no other transportation alternatives. the strike is illegal under NYS law. the workers will be fined 2 days pay for each one struck. the union will be fined heavily maybe to the point of bankruptcy. the bosses of the MTA and the union get paid whether the workers are on the job or not. toussaint gets paid by the union. chances are he will be sent to jail, rightly so. 1/3rd of the executive board voted against the strike the TWU international warned the local not to strike and they are giving no support to the local.

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Shakespeare (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 03:44 PM Response to Reply #142

146. Bullshit.

It's anti-union. You can be pissed off about the strike, you can rail against it all day long and debate whether the current laws make it illegal or not (and that's still up for debate, contrary to your vehemence). But if you are against the strike, you are anti-union.

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Solon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 04:04 PM Response to Reply #146

149. Hey Shakespeare...

Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 04:04 PM by Solon Check this out: Bill of Rights Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. Now, I am not a lawyer, nor am I a Constitutional scholar, however, it seems to me that since the Union is striking against a publicly funded organization, a governmental entity as you will, that they are doing EXACTLY what is allowed by the emphasized section of Amendment 1, would you not also agree?

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 04:09 PM Response to Reply #149

152. the constitution

does not protect the right to strike. if they want to protest fine do so without striking. organize pickets of workers who are off shift. the NYS taylor law clearly states it is illegal for municipal workers to strike.

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Solon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 04:16 PM Response to Reply #152

155. A strike is but one method of protest, I thought you knew that...

The Constitution(telling that you didn't capitalize it) doesn't say, one way or the other, as to what the proper methods of protest are, beyond that they don't include violence. This is a strike against a state organization, and therefore falls under the purview of the asking for redress of grievances from a state government as the Constitution allows. The taylor law should be struck down as Unconstitutional.

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 04:19 PM Response to Reply #155

158. so i guess

you would support strikes of cops and firemen too then. they fall under the same taylor law.

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Solon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 04:25 PM Response to Reply #158

161. Actually yes I would...

Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 04:26 PM by Solon The thing about it is this, if Police, Firemen, EMS workers, Nurses, and other vital services people, are neglected by the very communities that they are supposed to protect and help, then fuck the communities. Why should those that are needed the most by said communities be taken advantage of? Then again, I also think the Armed forces need to be unionized, with no restrictions on strikes, etc. for them either. At least I'm consistant. :)

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readmoreoften (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 04:54 PM Response to Reply #161

172. I whole-heartedly agree.

What's wrong with this country is our demand for easy living, easy answers, and total convenience. If people are afraid that the strike is going to leave people hungry, get involved with a community organization that's helping to feed people who are suffering because they have to pay cab fare to get into Manhattan.

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:18 PM Response to Reply #158

200. DEfinitely -- and when they do strike, they always, ALWAYS

keep enough staff on to protect the safety of the public. They just don't do anything extra.

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:16 PM Response to Reply #152

198. It also doesn't protect the right for blacks to be free or women to vote

Glad people on DU don't care about the Constitution, either....

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 04:05 PM Response to Reply #146

150. how am i

anti union. the strike is illegal! it has been on the books for decades (since the 60's) being against the strike does not make you anti union, that is a BS generalization it is costing the city millions each day in PO overtime, hundreds of millions in lost revenues to stores. extra money for the commuters (many of whom are working poor) the TWU and the union leaders deserve what they are getting. heavy fines and possible jail time for the leaders the union will be fined 1million per day. Even the international and national TWU unions agree that the strike is wrong! is the international TWU anti union now as well? "WCBS 880's Irene Cornell reports that the attorney for the international branch of the Transport Workers Union have told a judge in Brooklyn that they did not sanction the strike by TWU Local 100 -- and that the judge has served a restraining order barring the strike on the local's attorneys. "The international unions have washed their hands of the strike," notes Cornell, "As for the TWU, a restraining order barring the strike is now being served on both of their attorneys.""

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Donald Ian Rankin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 02:41 PM Response to Reply #146

288. Do you believe that's true of all strikes?

Because if so I'm afraid I'd have to reluctantly define myself as "anti-union" by your terms. I am fully in favour of the existence of the right to unionise and to strike, and I think that in most industrial action the right is at least largely on the side of the workers, but I don't believe that's true in *every* case. Please note that I'm not saying anything about the rights and wrongs of this specific strike - I live in the UK, and I don't know enough about living conditions in NY or the other issues to have an informed opinion. I'm just slightly worried that your post (whether that's your intention or not) could be read as saying that failing to support any strike action ever is anti-union.

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Solon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 03:59 PM Response to Reply #142

148. It is anti-union and you know it...

How many times, in the past, have people bitched and complained about Union strikes because it "inconvienced" them for a few days or weeks. That is what is pathetic, if any union nation-wide caves on ANY damn thing management, whether private or public, demands, then they are truly toothless, and we should welcome back the guilded age, with the child labor, indentured servants, and all that other shit that we had to put up with as WORKING people a hundred years ago. You want to go back to that world so that you don't get inconvienced, fine, bitch about "those damned unions" on that other board. This thread is pathetic. DINOs and Repuke lites are the pathetic ones.

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 04:07 PM Response to Reply #148

151. the international

the international TWU said the strike is wrong does that mean a nationwide union is anti union too? what the TWU is doing is horrible. the store owners losing money by the day. the city paying millions in extra OT for cops workers paying extra to get to work or unable to get to work at all because of added costs the TWU are the ones that are being anti union. they refuse to even listen to their own national.

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Solon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 04:18 PM Response to Reply #151

157. Gods forbid that store owners lose money...

cry me a river here, as far as the International TWU, they view this a PR issue, not one of worker's rights, so screw them.

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 04:21 PM Response to Reply #157

159. oh yes

the poor individual stores who make all their profit this time of year sheesh and here is the taylor law. the union had a litany of ways to get this settled without a strike. they ignored them * grants public employees the right to organize and to be represented by employee organizations of their own choice; * requires public employers to negotiate and enter into agreements with public employee organizations regarding their employees' terms and conditions of employment; * establishes impasse procedures for the resolution of collective bargaining disputes; * defines and prohibits improper practices by public employers and public employee organizations; * prohibits strikes by public employees; and * establishes a state agency to administer the Law- The Public Employment Relations Board (PERB). Administration Of The Taylor Law The New York State Public Employment Relations Board (PERB) was created as an independent, neutral agency to administer the Taylor Law. The three member Board is appointed by the Governor, with the consent of the State Senate. The Board's major responsibility is to act as an umpire in disputes arising under the Taylor Law. Other responsibilities include: administration of the Taylor Law statewide; resolution of representation disputes; provision of impasse resolution services; adjudication of improper practice charges; designation of management/confidential employees; determination of employee organization responsibility for striking and ordering forfeiture of dues and agency fee check-off privileges; and, administration of grievance and interest arbitration panels. Resolution of Contract Disputes # Mediation: Generally under the Taylor Law there are four impasse resolution systems, and in each system, mediation is the required first step. Either or both parties may request mediation assistance by filing a "Declaration of Impasse" with PERB's Director of Conciliation. The mediator is appointed by the Director from PERB's full-time staff or its panel of per diem mediators. The mediator acts as liaison between the parties, and seeks to effect a settlement through persuasion and compromise. # Fact-Finding: If mediation fails to resolve the impasse, then Fact-Finding is the next step. The fact-finder may attempt to resolve the dispute through further mediation. If not, or if unsuccessful in that effort, the fact-finder then holds a hearing, takes testimony of witnesses, accepts briefs from the parties, and then makes a written, nonbinding recommendation for settlement to both parties. The Fact-Finder then makes the report and recommendations public within five days of transmission of the report to the parties. # Binding Arbitration: For New York State Police units, the procedure is similar to what the law provides for local police, fire fighters, and certain transit employees. The Taylor Law provides that if the dispute is not resolved in mediation, PERB, on petition of either party, will generally refer the dispute to arbitration. Arbitration for New York State Police units is restricted to issues directly related to compensation and the decision of the arbitrator is binding on both parties. # Legislative Hearing: In those instances where arbitration is not permitted, if one or both parties does not accept the fact-finding report in its entirety, then for public employees (with the exception of public employees of educational institutions, police, fire fighters and certain transit employees) the next step is a legislative hearing. The Governor's Office of Employee Relations submits to the Legislature a copy of the fact-finding report plus the agency's own recommendations for resolving the dispute. The employee organization may submit its recommendations for settling the dispute as well. A public hearing is then conducted by the Legislature or a legislative committee to hear the positions of both sides. The Legislature usually directs both parties to resume negotiations but occasionally, the legislature will choose to impose employment terms. Such imposition may be for no more than a single fiscal year. A legislative determination cannot change the terms of an expired agreement unless the employee organization has waived its right to stand on those terms. # Conciliation: Is mediation assistance which PERB may offer, at its discretion, if an impasse continues after a fact-finding report has been issued.

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Solon (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 04:38 PM Response to Reply #159

168. Your looking to the wrong person if you want sympathy for owners...

Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 04:39 PM by Solon of any business. If the management is belligerent here, as the case is, then they are at fault for any inconvenience that occurs. The workers are only upholding their rights, if you can't agree that they should do this, then really, how else are you to be defined except as anti-worker and anti-Union?

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:04 PM Response to Reply #168

209. the MTA

the MTA is a public agency. if wages go up too much transit fares go up and that hurts the low income NYers the most. peace david

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 02:52 PM Response to Reply #168

291. the businesses

the businesses being hurt the worst are the small mom and pop type stoes. the TWU had many other options than to strike. they chose poorly and now are paying the price with the 2 for 1 fines and the million per day on the union itself. just because you disagree with a single union and strike does not make you anti union and anti worker. if we all think the same isnt that just as bad as the bushbots bleating out everything * says?

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:20 PM Response to Reply #148

202. In France, the workers do it right

They shut the whole damn country down, IN SOLIDARITY. Not like the bunch of whiny "Liberals" on here today. Man.

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:14 PM Response to Reply #142

197. It is anti-union, anti-labor tripe

Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 06:15 PM by LostinVA That is exactly what it is. You can't dress up a pig and make it into something else. "Pro public"? Caving into the bosses is pro public? Then, next negotiations something else will be chipped away, from the TWU, the cops, the teacher's etc. That's how it happens. I don't give a damn what the "law" says, either -- workers have a right to strike. Period. And, 2/3 voted for the strike. Fuzzy math. Glad to know you think your fellow workers deserve prison for flexing their rights. Lots of "liberals if I'm not inconvenienced" on DU today.

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alarimer (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 05:16 PM Response to Original message

173. 3% barely keeps up with the cost of living

I should know, that's all the raise I ever get. I see it is "screw the workers" day here.

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Snivi Yllom (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 05:54 PM Response to Original message

182. the International TWU thinks the locals are fools

They would have taken the deal. I bet they think the local TWU leader is a militant moron and it will cost them heavily.

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rug (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:08 PM Response to Reply #182

211. You really shouldn't salivate while you post.

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:29 PM Response to Reply #211

216. the national union

Sources within other large public employee unions tell CBS2 reporter Marcia Kramer that the TWU's international leadership is considering taking over the local and seeking a settlement with the Metropolitan Transportation Authority. Those sources say the upper level of the TWU thinks the MTA's latest offer is fair and worthy of further consideration and negotiation. They stand against a militant faction within Local 100 that pressed hard for a strike. can the national union actually do that? take over the local and order them back to work?

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rug (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:12 PM Response to Reply #216

224. Not under the NLRA.

Not to mention the resistance.

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BigYawn (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 06:19 PM Response to Original message

201. Good post sabbat hunter.............n/t

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:29 PM Response to Reply #201

217. thanks

im glad somebody agrees

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robbedvoter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:42 PM Response to Reply #201

219. Oh, goody - a mutual hatred admiration society. This is HUGH1111

Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 07:43 PM by robbedvoter Also, very series.

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sniffa (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 10:30 PM Response to Reply #219

244. bwahahaha

the i-List is getting HUGH!!1! today.

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greiner3 (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 07:43 PM Response to Original message

220. How loud can you yell WILDCAT? n/t

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:14 PM Response to Reply #220

226. impasse declared

an impasse has been declared by the MTA. now a mediator will be named by the state labor board. http://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_354164813.html also Many smaller stores delayed their openings or stayed shut. Ralph Israel, an owner of the Manhattan Train & Hobby store, said he had only one customer by noon on Tuesday and said if the strike lasts for more than a few days, his business could lose $50,000 in sales.

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BigYawn (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:20 PM Response to Original message

228. Breaking---> Judge fines TWU 1 MILLION $$ /DAY for ILLEGAL strike

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robbedvoter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:22 PM Response to Reply #228

233. Breaking: Anti-Union thugs take over DU - put their spew on page one

Am I ashamed of this place now!

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ChavezSpeakstheTruth (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:40 PM Response to Reply #233

237. BEST. POST. EVER.

:thumbsup: :patriot:

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FogerRox (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 10:08 PM Response to Reply #233

242. Right on Teamsters-- I was there on the 24th too

not all of DU is anal anti labor

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Czolgosz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 11:18 AM Response to Reply #233

274. Are the same people who are pissing on labor the ones who mocked the

Edited on Wed Dec-21-05 11:30 AM by Czolgosz petitions for clemency for Stan Williams, berate those who hope for impeachment, tell us which candidates are too Democratic to win the '08 nomination, deride the efforts to stop Alito as a waste of time, throw consumers under the bus because their propaganda-fueled hatred of lawyers is unmanageable, insist that (list your favorite progressive actor) should "shut the fuck up," accuse anyone who sees a pattern in the misconduct of our government of wearing a tin foil hat, are more interested in deregulating the government's control over handgun and machine gun sales than the government's control over a woman's uterus, argue that drilling in ANWAR is patriotic because it would free us from our addiction to foreign oil, lampoon Chavez as a dictator, etc.?

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Bridget Burke (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 01:21 PM Response to Reply #233

276. All the DU'ers aren't joining the Anti-Union crew.

Check it out. About half a dozen are making most of the most disgusting posts. It's a good way to get to know them.

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SpongeBob (105 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 09:28 PM Response to Reply #228

234. Funny coincidence: "ILLEGAL STRIKE" is Faux's logo for the coverage

Creative, huh? Your talking poilts are showing.

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twaddler01 (800 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 08:55 PM Response to Original message

230. There has to be a good reason they are doing this

this is big...something isn't right here :shrug:

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CelticWinter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 10:12 PM Response to Original message

243. I have to side with the union workers

I live in BFE PA and public transportation isnt an issue here but I have kept up on this since with my satellite my network channels come out of NYC. This strike didnt happen over night there was fair warning that it would happen. It was up to you the citizen of NY to make sure you have alternative ways to get around. You can say I dont understand what it is like to live in NYC without public transportation and your right I dont BUT you chose to live there and while you may have the conviences of living in a large city you must also be prepared to fend for yourself when something like this happens. During "Raygun's" term in office he did a hell of a job of busting unions and we havent recovered from that, we dont need to lose anymore unions. Management only offers what they are willing to give, they always have an agenda for what they do and its not looking out for the little guy. So if you want to live in a perfect world move to BFE where the only transportation you have is your car or shoe leather express and if not take the good with the bad, weather this storm and get on with your life.

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nick303 (379 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 11:34 PM Response to Original message

246. Try not to cry too hard for the TWU

I ask anyone broadbrushing this to consider if the union is correct 100% of the time: 1) The MTA currently has a surplus but it is expected to reverse in the next year. I will concede that the holiday fare reductions were a stupid idea that mostly are bought by tourists that probably would have bought a Metrocard anyway. The money spent on this should have been used to get their house in order, longer-term. 2) The average transit worker wage is in the 50-60K range. This is not anything to dance in the streets about but it is possible to get by on this. 3) The real losers in this situation are those who make 20-30K and live in the outer boroughs and NJ who are not able to make it to work. They will have to forego pay perhaps at a time of year when they need it most. 4) I'm wasting my breath on this one but everyone knew it was against the law for this to happen. And finally 5) I've seen many allegations of people being "liberals except when inconvenienced." I live and work in NYC, and I can tell you that I'm not being inconvenienced very much at all. I had to get a cab, but it was paid for by the company. Even if for some reason I couldn't make it to work this week and wasn't paid, I'd still get by just fine. To be honest, for most white-collar professionals (as well as the wealthy), this is little more than a conversation piece. Joe Wall Street is still getting his 100K bonus this year. McDonald's isn't going to lose much sleep over this either. It's the small businesses and the guys from #3 above, the ones truly living paycheck to paycheck that are going getting screwed.

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BrklynLiberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 11:48 PM Response to Reply #246

250. Never mind. Waste of time.

Edited on Tue Dec-20-05 11:50 PM by BrklynLiberal

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BrklynLiberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 08:24 PM Response to Reply #246

299. I love the ignore button..

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Clara T (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 11:40 PM Response to Original message

247. We begin to look to the left only as a consequence of being pulled

so far to the right. Context is everything.

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 07:00 AM Response to Reply #247

254. kick

kick

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BrklynLiberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Tue Dec-20-05 11:45 PM Response to Original message

249.  Workers right to defy MTA

Workers right to defy MTA By ERROL LEWIS - NY Daily News Dec 18, 2005 Think of the impending transit strike as the price - the fare - our city pays every so often to travel toward an important destination for many New Yorkers: entry to the middle class. Many people know nothing about that journey, and frankly couldn't care less about the lives, hopes and working conditions of the 34,000-member army of token booth clerks, track workers, mechanics and bus drivers who ferry us all safely across the city millions of times every day. The great and growing disconnect between white-collar and blue-collar workers in our town makes it hard for office workers to see, understand or respect what is at stake in this labor standoff. Few riders know, for instance, that transit workers have to ask for a day off 30 days in advance. Back in October, in an annual ritual, some MTA workers slept on cots in bus depots so they could be first on line the next morning to ask for permission to take Thanksgiving off. Such accumulated humiliations fuel much of the fury leading up to Tuesday's threatened strike. Train operators complain about the fear of driving through tunnels filled with debris; female workers recently went public with descriptions of the rusted, filthy, freezing bathrooms provided for them. None of that got mentioned at the Metropolitan Transportation Authority's news conference at the Grand Hyatt on Friday when talks broke down. Peter Kalikow, the MTA chairman, flanked by Executive Director Katherine Lapp and labor negotiator Gary Dellaverson, declared the talks at an impasse and earnestly pleaded that there was no more money to put on the table. Unfortunately, Kalikow and the MTA have long since thrown away their credibility. The agency lost $300 million to fraud and cost overruns at its own headquarters, leading Attorney General Eliot Spitzer to tell my colleague Michael Goodwin, "Of all the authorities, the MTA is the most mismanaged, least competent one out there, and everybody knows it." That's putting it mildly. This is the agency that Controller Alan Hevesi found kept two sets of books - one for the public, and the real numbers. The same place that claimed a deficit, then a small surplus, and then a billion-dollar surplus - which the MTA voted to spend down last week even as the strike deadline approached. So when Dellaverson told reporters that "the bucket is full" and that no more money could be offered to workers, it was almost comical. A reporter asked how much money it would take to meet the union's supposedly unreasonable demands, Dellaverson waffled. "I have a spreadsheet upstairs," he said. "I haven't run it." Uh-huh. Roger Toussaint and his transit workers have every reason to be furious with the MTA. When Toussaint speaks of the current labor negotiations as part of a "glorious struggle," he was talking about preserving a city where his members, men like Kenneth Hoyt, could succeed by landing a good union job. Born and bred in Brooklyn, Hoyt has been a subway conductor for 34 years. The job enabled him to raise five children - three sons, who all joined the Army, and two daughters, who are close to graduating from New York Technical College and Kingsborough Community College. Hoyt was doing platform patrol during the Friday afternoon rush on the uptown Lexington Ave. line at Grand Central Station, four stories beneath the press room where Kalikow and Dellaverson were crying broke. Gliding back and forth between arriving local and express trains, Hoyt spent hours multitasking - giving directions to lost travelers, shepherding riders on and off the trains with a booming, friendly voice, giving the all-clear signal with a flashlight, and exchanging five-second pleasantries with conductors on most trains. Several riders stopped to ask about the strike, and Hoyt - long before the news hit the airwaves - predicted the trains would stop running Tuesday. "The executive board of the union is not going to give in. I hope they don't." Me neither. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/local/story/375722p-319283c.html

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mcscajun (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 11:04 AM Response to Reply #249

269. This post should be its own thread.

Edited on Wed Dec-21-05 11:07 AM by mcscajun Think about it. OF course, you'll have to crop it down to four paragraphs to comply with DU rules on copyrighted materials. :)

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BrklynLiberal (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 08:14 PM Response to Reply #269

298. Better late than never. :D

Edited on Wed Dec-21-05 08:22 PM by BrklynLiberal http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x180521

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LincolnMcGrath (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 11:13 AM Response to Reply #249

273. Kick

This needs it's own thread!

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Surya Gayatri (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 08:19 AM Response to Original message

257. From some of the replies

Edited on Wed Dec-21-05 08:26 AM by Surya Gayatri on this thread, it seems clear that the poster of the DU thread, also in the Greatest, was spot on: Labor losing to Corporate Propaganda! Time to help Labor frame the issues! Labor does need to reframe its message to the general public, including a lot of posters here! Here's part of what I replied over there: For the average worker who's just trying to foot-slog his/her way to the office in the freezing pre-dawn winter wind, it's very hard to see the larger picture and realize that a strike is a stand for all working people. Unfortunately it's always the little guy/gal who takes the hit during such industrial action--never the VIPs sitting around their comfy negotiating table. As you say, Judged, public perception needs to be reframed and awareness raised of just how much the organized labor movement has gained for all of us over the years. SG Edited to try & correct URL-unsucessful

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robbedvoter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 08:31 AM Response to Reply #257

258. Those replies aren't from working people - unless paid spamming

is now considered 'work"

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Surya Gayatri (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 08:40 AM Response to Reply #258

259. Well, some of them

sure sound like disgruntled and displaced commuters. To paraphrase somebody else in the middle of the thread: "We as a nation have grown too fond of our creature comforts, unwilling to make the sacrifices required for social progress." Social solidarity? Only as far as it doesn't discommode my comfy little life style. SG

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 09:28 AM Response to Reply #259

260. it is not just displacement

it is costing commuters double the normal cost each day, a sum many cannot afford. sales at stores are down. holiday parties and catering events cancelled hotel rooms reservations cancelled. these things are lost forever.

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 11:07 AM Response to Reply #260

327. Freedom isn't free

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Czolgosz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 10:49 AM Response to Original message

266. What fine do companies get for knowingly selling dangerous products?

You can bet it's never anywhere near the $1,000,000 per day the union will be fined.

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 01:16 PM Response to Reply #266

275. that is a seperate issue

they should be fined here is a union that is violating the law by striking, not using the procedures available to them under the law. they should get back to work and use the legal methods.

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Czolgosz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 02:20 PM Response to Reply #275

283. Why is it separate? Why is a group of people organized to improve working

Edited on Wed Dec-21-05 02:21 PM by Czolgosz conditions not analogous to a group of people organized to sell products for profit? Why should the TWU be fined $1,000,000 per day for breaking a labor law while Ford does not get fined on a per-day basis for breaking Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard laws? If you think your holidays are inconvenienced due to TWU's strike, just talk to someone who's been paralyzed or had their face and fingers burned off as a result of vehicle sold in violation of the safety laws. Yet who's more likely to get a $1,000,000 per day fine?

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 02:48 PM Response to Reply #283

290. what vehicle

that ford sells is in violation of safety standard laws ans has caused paralyzation or burns. link please. i have not heard of this. we know for a fact that the TWU is violating the law. do we know for a fact that ford is too? its not just my holidays it is the holidays of all the hard working people in the stores around manhattan and the boroughs that are losing customers by the day because they cannot get around. its the working poor who cannot get to work because of the strike.

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Czolgosz (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 06:06 PM Response to Reply #290

292. You're kidding, right? There are too many defective Fords to list them all

Here are a couple of examples: Door handles systems that do not comply with FMVSS 206: * 1997 - 2000 Ford F-150 * 1997 - 2000 Ford F-250 -Super Light Duty * 1997 - 2000 Ford Expedition * 2000 Ford F150 Super Crew <http://www.motleyrice.com/news/downloads%5CMassF150ClassActionRelease.pdf>, <http://www.claimsguides.com/news/national/2005/02/18/51752.htm> Discussion of Fords with tires that do not comply with FMVSS: <http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/rulings/TREAD/MileStones/67FR72384AccelerationofManufacturerRemedyProgramFinalRule.htm>

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Selatius (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 11:23 AM Response to Reply #290

331. You've never heard of the Ford Pinto, have you?

The legal case that arose out of that was this: Internal documents pretty much showed that they knew the Pinto was likely to flame up if hit from the rear in an auto accident. The gas tank ruptured. The executives at Ford decided to run a study comparing the costs of litigation due to those accidents vs. the costs of actually retooling their factories, changing the design of the Pinto, and then implementing those plans in order to make the car safer. They decided in the end to "let them burn" because it was cheaper. The average lawsuit was $100,000 per incident. You can probably find this on findlaw, but I forgot the case number.

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sabbat hunter (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 08:49 PM Response to Reply #331

336. the ford pinto

was what 30 years ago? im talking today

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Selatius (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 09:31 PM Response to Reply #336

337. You never specified time frame with respect to citing examples.

Perhaps if you were a bit clearer on that point, but the previous poster who replied to the same post I did already covered other examples.

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Lone_Wolf (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 12:15 PM Response to Reply #275

334. Last I heard, involutary servitude is prohibited by the 13th Amendment

"Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." The only power the union has is to withhold its labor against the corrupt city administration, courts, and media. More power to the TWU. The Repukes who run NYC are nothing more than cheap labor conservatives who are using well known union busting techniques. The disinformation campaign they unleashed on the public to demonize the TWU conveniently misses the fact that it is against the law for the MTA to force changes on the union pension plan.

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Donald Ian Rankin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 02:47 PM Response to Original message

289. Don't get downhearted

Edited on Wed Dec-21-05 02:49 PM by Donald Ian Rankin I'm somewhat depressed at the degree of abuse being directed at the OP - there's very little reasoned rebuttal, and a great deal of abuse. The thread seems to be roughly divided into 15% of posts saying "on this particular occasion the strikers are wrong, for this list of reasons" and 85% posts saying "how dare you even suggest the strikers could be wrong, you anti-union republican slimeballs." I don't know enough about the strike to formulate an informed opinion myself - I live in the UK, and I don't know enough about living conditions in NY or the other associated issues - but certainly on this thread I think the few anti-strike voices are making their case much better than their opponents. Which is not, of course, the same thing as saying that they are right... Disclaimer: the 85%/15% split is purely arbitrary, and meant to be taken to mean "mostly/a few".

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rug (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 07:45 PM Response to Reply #289

297. Prithee, what's a reasoned rebuttal to "Screw the TWU"?

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Donald Ian Rankin (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 08:26 AM Response to Reply #297

324. It would be a list of reasons why this specific strike is justified.

Edited on Thu Dec-22-05 08:27 AM by Donald Ian Rankin The way to make the case for this strike, or any other strike, would be to explain why the negotiating position of the TWU was reasonable and why that of their employers wasn't. To make the case against it, you have to show the reverse. I don't know what a reasonable negotiating position is with regards to employment conditions as a transport worker in New York, but most of those who are referring to the negotiating positions at all are those opposing the TWU. They may (or may not) be wrong, but they are at least making their case in a way that would justify it if it were right. The pro-strikers aren't, by and large (their are some exceptions, but they're outnumbered) - even if they're right, most of them are not arguing in a way that could prove it. Questions whose answers would probably make it clear if the strike was justified or not: A) What are the working conditions (pay, pension rights, etc) of TWU workers in NY like compared to those of people doing the same jobs in other cities? B) What are the conditions of TWU workers like compared with those of people doing comparable jobs in NY? C) What are the conditions of people doing comparable jobs in NY like compared with those of people doing the same jobs in the cities refered to in A)?

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Name removed (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 06:07 PM Response to Original message

293. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

 

nedbal (675 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Wed Dec-21-05 10:36 PM Response to Original message

300. @@ SCREW THOSE WHO SAY TO SCREW THE TWU @@

when you post screw the TWU, due to the means they have to use to keep the hard fought ground they've won in the past. you're saying screw ME make a 2 tier workforce, Old vs New, keep cutting wages and benefits at what is a miserable place to work already. Divide and conquer the workers. Have 2 sets of workers, Just like the MTA keeps 2 sets of books ok, I made this one broad and not directed at just the original poster. 3. Civility: Treat other members with respect. Do not post personal attacks against other members of this discussion forum.

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Bluebear (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 02:12 AM Response to Reply #300

322. Especially if they can't throw 5 bucks to DU

Just sayin'.

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LostinVA (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 11:05 AM Response to Reply #322

326. And it's a good thing to say

Solidarity! Donate to DU!

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In Truth We Trust (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore

Thu Dec-22-05 11:28 AM Response to Original message

332. I support the union!

Solidarity isn't just a word. Shame on anyone who would begrudge a union that is genuinely trying to improve the lives of working men and women.

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