A GOP criticism we can refute (little DU project)

We spend a lot of time here growling and roaring about what the Bush administration does. I write about it on truthout. I get a good number of replies from GOP readers who claim I offer only complaints, and not solutions.

DU is a big online think tank. Let's work the problems, and come up with some solutions.

1. The War on Terror (alloction of funds, domestic/international measures, internationalism in the UN and NATO, Iraq, Afghanistan, North Korea)

2. The economy (tax cuts, SEC issues and Wall Street, unemployment)

3. The environment

4. The media

5. Insert problem and solution here

It's an open-ended, never-ending Orwellian scheme. Get more people-to-people, cross cultural developement projects going. De-emphasize the Christianity v. Islam aspect. End dependence on Saudi crude.

That's just off the top of my head.

So now we need another solution.

His name is Dean/Kerry/Clark/Gephardt/Edwards et. al.

Their websites give lots of solutions.

The media is just too lazy to read them.

They just don't listen to us.

Here's a start:

(1) War on Terror: actually work with other countries, rather than trying to piss them off. Spend money on tracking down the real threats (Al Qaeda etc) rather than untold hundreds of billions toppling two-bit dictators. Quit using their own government to frighten the American people.

(2) Economy: Reduce the deficit by eliminating the scheduled future tax cuts for the wealthy. Goose the economy with temporary payroll tax credits.

(3) Environment: Fund alternative energy: e.g., wind, solar, etc. Quit subsidizing the oil and coal industries. Require SUVs to get higher mileage. Quit weakening hugely successful environmental laws like the Clear Air Act. And a whole lot more...

And so on....

Nothing new here, obviously.

--Peter

>We've been offering solutions for a long time. They just don't listen to us.

We keep claiming to be the Party of reason and the superior ideaology, the intelligensia so to speak, yet we say people don't listen to us.

I have to question whether or not we've overestimated ourselves. If we were really smart, we would have figured out a way to present things in such a way that people couldn't help but listen to us, and would be so clear with our message they couldn't help but agree with us.

and his name is Howard Dean. :) But when are you going to see him on Fox News or the media outlets owned by defense contractors?

If we're really smart, we'll figure out a way to overcome that. If not, I again must question how smart we really are.

See post #14.

If that were the solution, we would have already implemented it, it would already be in place, if we were as smart as we claim we are.

why are they making things worse?

We're the Party claiming the intelligensia, not them. Let start showing it. I hear a lot of excuses instead.

>I hear a lot of excuses instead.

Have you read all the posts here?

nc

That's what I was saying.

And in case you haven't noticed, we have a huge propaganda machine (White House, FOX, CNN, and the rest of the corporate media) that opposes us.

--Peter

If we were as smart as we claim, we would have figured out how to overcome any propaghanda machine, no matter how big.

Guess we're just dummies then.

:crazy:

If we were so smart, we'd be able to figure out how to turn a $100 donation into $1,000,000 and thus be able to outspend the GOP and their corporate media lackeys!

:eyes:

--Peter

And it's a defeatist attitude like that which will get us hammered in 2004. If you don't believe you can overcome the obsticles, you can't.

Defeatist attitudes are not healthy. (Fortunately, I don't have one, as I strongly believe we can and will overcome the obstacles and defeat this regime.) I'll latch onto that statement of yours and end this digression on a note of agreement.

--Peter

Very good. Best to you!

This puts all the responsibility on the left wing. The right wing gets to screw up the country with it's cheap labor economics and we have to not only come up with the solutions but also have to frame them in such a way that it's palatable to them? And if we can't manage to attract their attention and convince them, then it's somehow our shortcoming? I don't get it.

One of the reasons why Clinton beat Bush is because Bush raised taxes after he promised he would not. Clinton also seemed more engaged during the debates. So, he got his foot in the door when the opposition failed and not so much because he explained himself better. We're still hearing about how Poppy Bush checked his watch during that ill fated debate. And even though Clinton's economic policies helped the country, the right wing maintained a white hot meltdown over his very presence in office.

I'm dog tired of hearing how we have to fix their messes but first we have to convince them that our solutions are good enough so the right wing will swallow them. I believe that "their" economy will have to fall apart before they have a change of heart. They make me so angry. And I will not accept responsibility for making them want to help fix what they have broken.

>And if we can't manage to attract their attention and convince them, then it's somehow our shortcoming?

Yes. We are the ones claiming superior intellect. People with superior intellect find ways to overcome obsticles, no matter how large they are. If we can't do that little, we need to quit claiming superior intellect.

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Take the "Troll" crap and shove it! I'm a life-long Dem.

>How do you get media time without media cooperation?

Shouldn't the intelligensia have figured that out already?

since the smartest people in the world have already solved them? You're not making sense.

No one is trolling here. I think that Will was put off by the right wingers he was talking with. They turned the tables on him to get him off their collective back. It's legitimate to deal with that. It's one of the problems. How would you propose solving that barrier?

Your name calling tactic isn't going to get me off your back, btw. So - how would you propose getting the right wing to listen to what they've already skillfully rejected? I'd like to hear some specific ways to get the right wing to listen to you in the first place and how you would counteract their sound bites.

Something smells in here...

Let me just point out, that I can be smarter than you, but if you refuse to listen, regardless of how good the argument is, then that in no way means I am NOT intellectually superior to you.

It just means that you are SO INFERIOR that you can't comprehend complex issues.

For example, arguing with a chimp will get you nowhere. It will just throw it's shit at you, scream a bit, and thump it's chest. That doesn't mean the chimp is smarter.

I've seen several posters over the past week claim their superior intellect over the conservatives. I'm sure you've seen posters like that , too. Now, while I agree our ideaology is better, I would never go so far as to claim we are the superior intellectually, as they have.

I'm challenging these people. People with superior intellects should have the answers, should they not? Wouldn't they know how to overcome obstacles regardless of the difficulity?

The sooner some of these people get their head out of the clouds, the better off our whole Party will be. I did this to stir up some emotion towards focusing on the job ahead. If we don't, we're going to get hammered in 2004. Given many of the posting I've read at DU since joining last week, that's looking like a very real possibility.

to stir up emotion. As you can see, ideas were pouring in on this thread before you did so.

Too many people on this board believe they're smarter than they really are. It's that kind of attitude that's going to get us hammered in 2004.

instead of painting us all with the same brush?

If you don't fall into that category, then it wouldn't apply to you. If you don't believe yourself to be intellectually superior to right-wingers, if you understand they simply see things from a different viewpoint, then we've come to a level platform where issues can be discussed. That's where we need to be. For those out there who believe they are intellectually superior to right-wingers, and you know who you are, you need to reconsider your position, because I guarantee you that you'll never convince someone to even consider your position if they even have a hint you believe yourself to be better than they.

This really comes down to us putting ourselves in the other persons shoes, not just talking about it. Minds and hearts are never going to be changed by people who see themselves as some sort of elite who need to be adhered. I've seen that attitude among some here at DU, and if you're willing to project it on a message board, whether you want it to or not, you'll project it in your F2F discussions with the opposition, and that's an instant turn-off. It would be if it were happening to you.

>We keep claiming to be the Party of reason and the superior ideaology, the intelligensia so to speak, yet we say people don't listen to us.

>If we're really smart, we'll figure out a way to overcome that. If not, I again must question how smart we really are.

>If that were the solution, we would have already implemented it, it would already be in place, if we were as smart as we claim we are.

>We're the Party claiming the intelligensia, not them.

>If we were as smart as we claim, we would have figured out how to overcome any propaghanda machine, no matter how big.

>We are the ones claiming superior intellect. People with superior intellect find ways to overcome obsticles, no matter how large they are. If we can't do that little, we need to quit claiming superior intellect.

That's the method I used to make my point. Notice how I said "we", because although it may be only a few doing so, it reflects on the whole Party. You either can comprehend that or you can't. If you can't, that's not my problem.

Considering you've already called me a troll for no reason, and you continue to question the motives of a fellow liberal, I have no more time for you.

:evilgrin:

a certain segment of DUers constantly call themselves liberals while attacking liberals?

Anyhow, to the "intellectual superiority" question. I think there is no doubt that the left wing is intellectually superior to the right, in fact even the right wingers know it (which is why they complain so much about elitism).

Take for example the intellectual capacity of an Ann Coulter or a Rush Limbaugh or a George Bush Jnr!

Hell, anyone who would vote for a moron like Bush has automatically admitted to being a dullard. They are the chimps I mentioned in my previous post. They love to come here and scream a bit and throw shit, but eventually they are put back in their pens where they beat their chests and brag as to how they stood up to those "evil LIEberals".

Some are more crafty than others, but they are still transparent when they post their attempts to attack liberals while trying to look like liberals themselves.

don't think people on this board represent themselves as "superior" intellects. What are you basing those claims on? I see a group of people who realize that this country is in trouble and are trying to find solutions.

This is a common sense approach to an appalling situation created by those currently in power. Your claims are just silly.

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I'm not a troll. Don't even go there.

We'll agree to disagree.

And I don't always go back and check to make sure my spelling is perfect. If you do, that's fine.

However, let's deal with that idea for a minute. Perhaps one can have a high intellect but lack cunning.

As far as I can see, Karl Rove's cunning tactics are helping the
right wing win the battle for our country despite any moral and intellectual high ground other Parties enjoy. Neither attribute cancels out the other. But sadly, cunning has surely trumped our collective brains in recent years.

Frankly, I'd like to see us use more Al Franken techniques for dealing with the problem. For instance, I'd like to see a liberal guest on Hannity and Colmes turn to "Gollum" Hannity and tell him flat out that being interviewed by Sean is like being "verbally raped". It's time for some stinging sound bites of our own.

I don't believe immitating Al Franken is going to inspire anyone. For instance, I can't stand the guy. Winning debates on TV (if that's possible) isn't going to make a difference. I don't believe sound bites are going to turn the populace.

If we as a Party have simplified our positions to "who can over-shout Hannity" and "what's a good sound bites for this issue", we're doomed before we even get off the ground.

We can agree to disagree. I appreciate your imput, and Thank You.

I won't try to convince you to like anything about Franken. But given the popularity he enjoys and how he further unmasked O'Reilly, there's something succesful in his antics. He may not share the high ground you want to maintain. However he does get the public ear and that's one thing we're trying to explore here in this thread. Different ways to get and keep the right wing ear.

Though, I will maintain that Hannity verbally rapes his liberal guests. Telling him that doesn't nmean it needs to be shouted. It just needs to be asserted. So, please understand that I'm not inviting Dems to some mosh pit of political discourse. I just don't mind getting a little dirt under my fingernails once in a while.

Thanks for the dialog.

"It's hard to compete with free."

That's what the Republicans claim to offer: something for nothing.

The SUV comment was a good one to play with. SUVs burn too much gas. We know that. The excess fuel consumption fouls the air and water, the noise damages the ear, the weight of the vehicle causes excess wear on the public highway.

Democrats and Republicans would go at this problem in different ways. A Democrat would encourage the purchase of cars instead of SUVs. He would get Hollywood to have its movie heroes drive cars and the villains drive SUVs (and show the villains get killed in the SUVs as they went out of control and flipped), encourage the papers to show photos of fatal SUV accidents on the front page, perhaps even add surcharges to SUV registrations. Maybe even get the automakers involved; automakers love SUVs because as of right now an SUV is a truck and must meet truck safety standards. You change the SUV into a car, which it must be because that's how they sell it, and the automakers' enthusiasm for these behemoths will plunge. Another quick way to deal with the big-SUV problem would be to require all drivers of Hummers, Suburbans and Expeditions to hold commercial drivers' licenses. Tell the prospective buyers, "if you buy this truck, you can never again go to Lone Star and have a beer with your dinner, because if you're caught with any amount of alcohol in your system they will revoke your CDL for life and you can never drive this truck again," and all of a sudden the only Suburbans on the streets will have some construction company's name on the door.

A Republican would stand up and say, "if we drill in ANWR, we'll have cheap gas again and you can drive your SUV with impunity!" The populace flocks around the Republican because he's offering something for free. I know it's not free--nothing truly is--but it looks free and appearances are important.

Dems should label/sell "middle class tax cut with offsets paid by rich"


The 10% bracket, the child care credits increased a bit, the marriage penality replaced by file under either status rules, with every dime of tax cut on the over 200,000 income folks returned to Clinton level, with new tax bracket for over $1 million in income, and with Alt Min ending any preference for investment - capital gains and investment interest and dividends taxed at 100 cents on the dollar - but only at 25% top tax rate.

The label makes a difference.

The GOP will scream class warfare - but we counter, pointing out how most benefits go to high income/asset folks and their corporations, plus we note how much richer the rich have become at the expense of the rest of us - meaning the rest of us are losing the class warfare the rich are waging, via the GOP, on us, and on our children via the birth tax that covers the National Debt - the Bush increase in the NATIONAL DEBT via the deficits being a new debt our kids will have to pay both via the interest year to yeat plus the principal when that comes due.

I like the idea of saying, "middle-class tax cuts," which we will offset by making the rich pay up. That way, we'll give tax cuts to people who need it and still be fiscally responsible -- exactly the opposite of what Chimp is doing.

trying to figure out a way to phrase my thoughts. I'm a real radio, tv, non fiction junky when it comes to current events. And the people who have been telling you that all the Dems do is complain are just not listening.

To me, the truth is that they don't want to hear solutions because the solutions don't allow for the "cheap labor economy" the right wing embraces. So, as soon as I see or hear liberal folks frame a solution when they're on talk programs - they get labeled as "carpers" for bringing it up in the first place. And their ideas are dismissed or trivialized.

So, I suppose that my first goal and only solution for right now is to try and find a way for true dialog to take place. I believe that the left hand has been extended but the right hand isn't reciprocating to complete the hand shake. If instead they continue to put fingers in their ears and shout "LA-LA-LA", we aren't going to get anywhere. The best we can do then, is to develop a stubborn resolve to stick around, continue to speak out to the deaf ears and wait to pick up the pieces if there are enough of us left.

with you. They do not listen and they pull out convienient sound bites that make our solutions sound stupid and ineffective then they make a label for it. I don't know if any of this will make one bit of difference if we do not get the chance to be heard equally. We have not gone away, well some of our reps appear to have but eventually someone will get the ear of something and if we can just be ready to take advantage of it perhaps we will be heard. This is a constructive thread.

They do use the sound bites to deflect good ideas. They continue to act like all we want to do is "steal" their money via taxes. It's as if they aren't even engaged within their own country. The wealthy right wingers remind me of Gollum from The Hobbit, stroking their "Precious-s-s-s" money.

How many "best" schools can their kids attend at one time? How many corporate jets can they fly in at one time? The examples go on and on.

I'm not a socialist. I don't begrudge rich people wealth. But when does the greed stop? When do they understand that without a healthy working class - the wealthy have less sources for their products?

It's just too simple that what's good for General Motor's employees is good for General Motors. I just don't think they want to hear it. Maybe they've abandoned Americans as a source for sales. Maybe they want to concentrate on developing consumerism in China and elsewhere outside the U.S. In that case, we're spitting in the wind.

a part of the thread we need to come up with solutions. I got my whine out, now what? To me this is the biggest or perhaps the most urgent problem because it will defeat us. Any ideas? I have to admit that I am stumped with this one.

If they've written Americans off, then I don't have any solutions for that. I'm stumped but am committed to continue plugging away clinging to my left wing beliefs to the end.

Besides, isn't one of our complaints that we offer solutions and the right wing appropriates them as their own? I'm not feeling so cunning today. I don't know how to come up with solutions that appeal to them and concurrently figure out how to keep them from being stolen to boot!

1) 99% of terrorism directed against the US is caused by a very few things:
a) US corporate abuses in foreign countries, e.g., the pipeline in Venezuala, the abuse of villagers in Burma, etc.
b) US govt policies, supporting brutal dictators who steal the wealth of the land and repress the population (e.g., Saudi Arabia, Iran under the Shah, Iraq), and US troops stationed abroad.
c) Unconditional US support for Israel.

Solutions:
a) End military support for US corporations. If a US corporation chooses to build facilities abroad, they do so at their own risk. US military will not guard privately owned pipelines or intervene militarily to protect Dole banana farms.
b) Readopt Carter's human rights foreign policy. The US govt will not support any govt which is not popularly elected, or which represses large segments of it's population.
c) Impose a solution. Kick Israel out of the West Bank and Gaza and dismantle ALL illegal settlements. Impose a UN military force on the border of Israel and Palestine. Allow Palestinian free elections. Warn Palestine, in the UN, that Palestine will be SEVERELY punished if terrorist attacks resume and continue. E.g., every terrorist attack against Israel will result in moving the Palestinian border 100 yards East, enforced by UN troops.

That's enough for now.

Very solid points. Here's my Top Ten:
1) Terrorism - Pull US troops out of Iraq; let the UN come in and participate in a REAL coalition that respects international law.

2) Terrorism - Stop financing and backing coups bringing repressive US puppet regimes into power... that'll be a hard habit to break...

3) Diplomacy - Propose a resolution removing veto powers from the UN Security Council Big 5... that would go a long way to showing that we are finally willing to participate in the world community as an equal, not as the overlords.

4) Energy - Finally admit that our addiction to fossil fuels has been a major part of our issues and give real funding to alternative, cleaner burning fuel sources. It might also be a great idea to allow tax incentives to auto comapnies offering alternatives & to those who purchase them.

5) Crime - Enforce white collar crime equally. White collar crime is one of the reasons for the lack of public money, thus is a major contributor to other less genteel crimes that stem from the obscene poverty & job shortages in the US. They should pay their debt to the damage they have done to society like everyone else.

6) Poverty/Welfare/Workfare - Set up public housing units like "community villas", where families that know & trust each other could select a "house mother" of sorts to fulfill their work requirements by providing day care services to the other working parents. Inspections would have to be made, but this seems a good way to allow struggling parents to work & not have child care problems.

7) Crime - LEGALIZE DRUGS!!!! Obviously, the "war on drugs" is not working & never will. Legalizing drugs will not only bring the price down, causing a probable decrease in drug-related crimes by users, but will also all but eliminate the crimes related to the import/traffic/dealing. The easiest way to eliminate the criminal influence of the cartels is take away their cash cow, the US. On top of everything else, the taxes that could be collected would be a huge boon to cash-starved states!

8) Crime - Legalize prostition. How much tax money is spent trying to stop consenting adults from having sex? Please!

9) Taxes/economy - Allow corporate tax breaks only when those monies are reinvested in the business for legitimate expenses (not CEO perks or lobbying for example). Establish pre-requisites, such as health insurance and adherance to accounting methods rooted in reality, and make such breaks unavailable to corporations with too steep of an employee to executive pay ratio.

and the Mama Cass of ideas...

10) GET RID OF THE DAMNABLE COMPUTER VOTING MACHINERY AND LET ALL OUR VOTES COUNT!

Well, those are my thoughts anyway.

Great topic, Mr. Pitt. It's good to see a little more positive forward-thinking here at the DU!
~Mich

Hang in there, I'm on your side. It's just that the right wing already has some handy mantras ready for you. Here they are. How will you reply? We need to be prepared. Read on -

"99% of terrorism directed against the US is caused by a very few things:"

You just want to blame America first. How can you be so unpatriotic?

"a) US corporate abuses in foreign countries, e.g., the pipeline in Venezuala, the abuse of villagers in Burma, etc."

Where do you suggest we get oil, then? How can we run our industries that need it? You just want Americans to give up our wonderful way of life. I want what I want and you won't take it away from me and my children.


"b) US govt policies, supporting brutal dictators who steal the wealth of the land and repress the population (e.g., Saudi Arabia, Iran under the Shah, Iraq), and US troops stationed abroad."

So! Now you don't support our troops, either? What kind of an American are you? You're just one of the Blame America First crowd. You liberals hate America. Your statements prove it.


"c) Unconditional US support for Israel."

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East. Why don't you support democracy? Our president supports democracy - why don't you? Can you say one good thing about President Bush?

Denverbill, I know this seems like a harsh reply. But you know we've heard our good ideas go down the drain once the Repubs crank out their rhetoric. And I know I'm taking a chance since I live in Lakewood, too! But can we put our heads together in cyberspace and come up with some answers to the right wing canned responses?

Why don't we stop worrying about the wingnuts for a little while. The progressives position is demeaned by taking part in their rhetoric-filled, ad hominem riddled shout-fests and it only serves to alienate the majority of voters, who think both sides are wingnuts because of it.

I think the best solution of all would be to get back into personal politics, the way it was done back in the days before relentless commercials and shallow attempts at marketing the running of our country like a box of dish soap. Make personal contact with people, offer real information instead of catch-phrases and resume our place in the civilized world.

Who really cares whether the zealots will throw verbal grenades? It's the surest sign they've lost. When progressives chose to wallow in the mud, they signaled to the American people that they had indeed lost... and so we did.

We should take thought out, real life solutions and solid ideas to the people and let THEM decide... media is not just your television anymore!
Just my pair of pennies anyway...
~Mich

I'd like to go back to a coffeehouse atmosphere where political wordsmiths engage in respectful discussion. But this isn't a past decade. It's the here and now, in the America where folks have developed short attention spans.

Dealing with verbal grenades is the dilema we're avoiding in this thread.

... which I am very sad are the minority of the conversations in general & in this very thread.

There are solutions to be found, especially if one simply focuses on positive change instead of griping about the other side. If we don't have the strength to put forward positions without ruling everything out that may get some arguments from fog horns with a pulse like Hannity, we have lost without even stepping into the arena.

What I am talking about is really connecting with American people, beginning a dialog that does not include bashing & griping or soft-sell crap (like this idea that we MUST go moderate, which has worked TERRIBLY well in the past few go'rounds). We need to start getting ideas across without the big hooplah of staged rallies and TV shoutfests. We need to stop watering down our opinions because of fear of sounding **gasp** liberal. We need to stop trusting polls brought to us by our supine, Bush-loving media and select our candidates based on the solutions they offer.

We need to get back to what made the Dem party great, it's support among average working Americans. In focusing too much on playing the Right Wing wingnut game, they have lost their roots and continue to suffer for it.

Who needs coffeehouses? There are millions of public spaces and people waiting to hear something that actually relates to themselves and their lives. Why don't we give it to them for a refreshing change of pace instead of relying on Big Media to dole out the crumbs and give us a few moments to shriek it over the Wingnut Flavor of the Moment?

Instead of working to not lose, we should be focusing on why most people don't vote and dealing with that face to face. At least that's my not-so-humble opinion...
~Mich

"There are millions of public spaces and people waiting to hear something that actually relates to themselves and their lives."

Send them here, please! Out here in conservative Colorado, my neighbors are surprised that we have an Amercian flag hanging on our house. Surprised because we're Democrats and Dems don't love their country. Connecting on the level you describe would be like - pinch me I'm dreaming.

I don't believe in backing off my liberal positions. But here, it's a battle just getting people's attention. Simply focusing on positive change isn't enough. I need to develop counter arguments when people's eyes glaze over and their teeth turn to stainless steel. I'm beyond the "putting forth positions". I'm looking for what to say when they say "talk to the hand - you liberals are the problem".

I figure that this forum is the place to expres those needs. Excuse me if I'm misinformed.

I grew up a politically aware progressive "behind the Orange Curtain", in the land of Dornan, Dannemeyer (sp?) and Rohrabacher (sp?) and spent several childhood years as a Catholic Yankee in rural Oklahoma. At present, I am an atheist and a member of what is sometimes referred to as the "leather community", meaning I am "one of them" cubed.

One thing I have learned through these experiences of being "one of them" is that a healthy respect for people's fears is all that works to diffuse them. Revolution, true revolution, is a small shift in evolution that makes future small shifts possible and so on. While I am passionate about my beliefs, I understand that others are possibly just as passionate about theirs. If my first act is to ask someone and open-ended question and really listen to what they have to say, some common ground can be found. Once there is any sign of "argument", nothing constructive can really be done. The object is to always state opinions as that, "just my opinion", never (even off-handedly) insulting someone's opinion in the expression of your own. It is more important to share the inspirations of opinions and empathize with each others' concerns. Some people are not capable of that, so why waste the brain cells worrying about them? Zealots of any stripe can only discredit your validity by dragging you into irrelevant bickering and keep you from looking at an issue from more sides that merely your own.

In my opinion, the best thing the US can do as a matter of national policy is to stop thinking in terms of idealogical absolutes and "victories" and start focusing on progress rather than "solutions". We continually cause more problems by having such a Black/white, Us/Them, Good/Evil, Left/Right way of looking at things. It's why we squabble with each other instead of working toward a common ground that is mutual and more stable.

Too often, I have seen well-meaning people adopt the very same attitude they criticize in "the other side". It's like the psychological truism that we resent in others that which we fear/deny the most in ourselves. How can we deride "Right-wing wingnuts", while we paint them with the same broad brush? Is Left-wing stereotyping of the "other side" any less dangerous or apallingly simplistic or irrationally stubborn?

The movable middle is out there waiting for a reason to start caring again. We can be inspiring again, all it takes is a little empathy and a lot of listening. What do you think scares you & your neighbors about each other? You may just find it's the same thing.

~Mich

Allow these countries that harbor terrorists to develop wealthy middle classes, with opportunity for the oppressed. Let them have democracies so that that minority views can have legitimate vents for their opinions other than violence.

The US makes a lot of money by dealing with tyrants who rule their countries with iron fists. It's time the US encourages wealthy middle classes and democracies to develop all over the world. Venezuela should be the model for safety, and not the threat to profits which is how most RWers see it.

The whole system is a piecemeal mess, both inefficient and unfair.
It is unfair to our public schools, our states, our community welfare programs and even to our businesses. The only groups who genuinely benefit are the tax accountants and tax lawyers. And, it fosters class warfare.

"The Radical Center" by Ted Halstead and Michael Lind offers some suggestions for tax reform: a consumption tax instead of a sales tax, quit taxing corporations and raise the taxes for individuals on an equitable basis, equalize school funding by rebates through the federal government to the states thus taking the unequal burden off of the states some of whom have great trouble funding education.

I think these are good points of departure for a discussion about reforming our tax "system". It's not a system, it's a disaster held together by chewing gum and loopholes.

Then, maybe we can fund the things we know we need like an efficient system of healthcare funding, good public schools, job training, a sane approach to child care, infrastructure rebuilding and development, etc...

That was such a good question, Will. :D

more tax cut for the rich.

A flat tax with investment at 100 cents on the dollar in the Alt Min Tax section would make a lot of sense.

IMHO

:-)

if there is a sizable exemption of the first x thousand dollars of income the poor could owe next to nothing. If you also subtracted savings and ,yes, investment which could include education expenses the richer people would still pay more. I thought investment and savings were good for our economy. And investment income would still be income that provides the starting point for a consumption tax.
Income - x deduction - education expenses - savings - investment = amount to be taxed. This could be rebated to the states on a per capita business.

This also takes the collection burden off of businesses and equalizes what they refer to as "brick and click" industries. I like their general idea for change.

I'm not saying this is the best way to go, but we do need to look harder at the whole system and not just rearrange the deck chairs.

:D

Ask your coworker, your neighbor, your waitress how they feel about protecting the environment. It's a winning issue, because everybody, in essence, supports keeping America beautiful, don't they?

The first step involves installing stewards of our nation's lands, not auctioneers. Once you educate friends about the business backgrounds and destructive policies of DOI secretary Gale Norton, and, far worse, the true leader of the DOI, deputy secretary J. Steven Griles, they'll be shocked. Talk to them about the Healthy Forests Initiative, and its laughable Orwellian impact. Bring up the even more bizarrely-named Clear Skies Act, which allows polluting firms to exude almost three times the amount of mercury into the air as allowed under Clinton-era standards.

Explain to them that Democrats have a proven record of ensuring that those most responsible for preserving our environment hold that standard far higher than their devotion to collecting huge donations from polluting companies. This country has never really had a truly "green" president, but Clinton did, at the least, preserve much federal land, and improved air and water quality. Few can argue with Al Gore's own devotion to environmental causes; although the spotted owl phrase was much-mocked by conservatives, most voters support the preservation of endangered species.

It's just a beginning, of course, but if there's one thing most Democrats and Republicans agree on, it's that Democrats are far more trusted and motivated in matters of environmental preservation. Help your friends make the environment a more important issue in their lives, and it won't be a far stretch for them to realize that, like most issues of concern in their lives, the Democratic Party is the one that deserves their vote.

set up a fund to give a number of people free tests for thier body burden.. You know, the count of how many foriegn and potentially dangerouse chemicals you body as asorbed through life.

I bet once peopel kno exactly how many PCBS and known carcinogens and mutagens they have already and in thie rkids, they will become very pro-environment. espcially among the working poor who will suddenly realize that voting republican is bad for thier health.

War on Terror: Establish a Palestinian state. (I know, I know...) Stop turning a blind eye to Israel's heavy-handedness, so we can be a credible neutral party in negotiations.

Economy: Not my area of expertise, but we must stem the flow of jobs overseas. If we make it less cost-effective for companies to relocate--or we make it embarrassing, by saying who's doing this--that will be a start. Tax cuts are only mildly stimulative. You can't give people an extra 1% of their income and expect a 5% improvement in economic growth. It's also not "their money", it's the cost of living in a civilized society. And of course, send those who commit securities fraud to real prison, not the country club kind, and not just Sam Waksal.

Environment: Strictly enforce existing laws. The current policy of voluntary compliance is the same as having no laws at all--the foxes guard the henhouse.

Media: Decrease the percentage of media outlets one company may own in a given market, forcing the breakup of the largest media conglomerates. They are our airwaves, after all. Bring back the fairness doctrine.

Campaign Finance Reform: Institute public financing of campaigns, and outlaw all political donations as bribery. Money is not speech. Give political candidates airtime and advertising.

"Media: Decrease the percentage of media outlets one company may own in a given market, forcing the breakup of the largest media conglomerates. They are our airwaves, after all. Bring back the fairness doctrine.

Campaign Finance Reform: Institute public financing of campaigns, and outlaw all political donations as bribery. Money is not speech. Give political candidates airtime and advertising."

Now you're speaking my language!!

If candidates could not collect easy checks and could not spend them on easy-to-digest commercials, perhaps campaigns might need to be about something a little deeper than a sound bite and who has the richest friends. I wholeheartedly agree with free broadcast time as a requirement for holding and keeping a broadcast license. The airwaves are ours, we should be offered something other than "Must Gag TV". Every station should be compelled to offer at least an hour of prime time per week and staggered hours of non-peak hours (not in the Info-mercial insomnia wasteland hours, either).

While I'm here, there's another thing stuck in my craw...

MILITARY SPENDING!
I completely agree with taking care of the men & women who take care of us, but this is not what's happening. We invest an unholy amount of our budget for spiffy toys that sometimes don't even (and never will) actually work. We should cut the "toy" budget and dramatically increase the "people" budget. Our troops deserve to be paid well and have good education for their children, as well as health care & veteran's benefits that do not have the habit of mystically disappearing (like they seem to do on the GOP watch).

Why not reduce the military budget, let's say at least by a third, while shifting the priorities as above, and reinvest that in infrastructure & education. It is criminal that we spend our children's futures on weapons they will probably have to carry someday, when they cannot afford school and must enlist to even think about college. If they survive our hubris and don't pay the price for expanding the empire of our wealthier citizens, they can maybe get a part of the education they should have been entitled to all along.

How many future engineering & physics geniuses are out there with no availability to an even half-decent education? We could still be well ahead of the rest of the world in technological development, military & industrial, if we simply invested in a proper education across the board and took advantage of the intellect of ALL Americans (even those who live in poorer areas). Imagine what geniuses our children could be if invested in them from early childhood, when their brains are learning how to learn?

I think we have enough $6,000. cel phones in the inventory already anyway...
~Mich

And take that tax money and invest it only in social programs that reap rewards down the road (how 'bout light rail rapid transit? solar powered flying car research?). And don't be confused. The social safety net reaps great rewards. It allows people to take chances they wouldn't otherwise take. Also, you never know which kid is going to grow up to be the next Einstein, or Eugenides, or Edwards. You want to make sure each of them have all the chances they need (health, education, etc) so they can grow up to make a full contribution to society, regardless of where they started in life.

Spread the tax burden fairly, and you unleash all the creative and economic contributions people can bring to bear on society.

After I read efeny's post #4 I checked back to be sure I read your opening post correctly. I did. You said you get replies from GOP's that you offer no solutions.

Are you looking for material to write position papers on each subject (or something like that)? If that's the case, how specific would you like the responses to be?

If that's your plan, I would hope they would get into the hands of the presidential candidates - and maybe congressional candidates too. I have confidence that you could do this in such a way that it could become a reference tool like American Enterprise Institute reports are.

My latest 'Anyone But Bush' came directly from that massive thread we did a few weeks ago compiling all the lies. I see this potentially headed in the same direction.

It's also a good DU exercise. I've found that when you have to sit down and write something, it causes you to really determine what you believe in, and why. That has been my experience, anyway.

On the environment:

Reducing pollution saves money in health costs. Communities with better environments attract more jobs and have higher standards of living. Before this administration, technologies that reduce pollution was a growth industry in the US. We employed many Americans in this industry and exported equipment. We also led in energy saving devices.

Reducing our reliance on oil and requiring higher gas mileage will reduce pollution, decrease our reliance on middle east oil, and encourage innovation and new technologies that we can export.

On the economy:

Eliminate the tax cut and have a payroll tax cut to stimulate the economy. Reduce the deficit so interest rates do not rise and thwart the ecoonomic recovery. Support education and investment in new technologies.

Corporate Greed:

Set a cap on executive salaries so workers can earn more. Enforce laws about accurate accounting practices which will encourage more investment in the US. Enforce anti-trust laws and pass laws to encourage small business especially those that employ many.

One of the reasons the media is so powerful is the same reason Haliburton, Bechtel, ChevronTexacoExxonMobil and Alcoa are so powerful in today's society. Our tax code is a subsidy to size. Small businesses with innovative new business models and ideas are pulling all the weight so tha the big companies don't have to.

If Fox, GE, etc, all had to pay a progressive rate of taxation on their giant incomes, they'd have to rationalize their business models -- they'd have to go from propaganda to actually having to make products people wanted to buy.

You couldn't just buy a TV station to operate as the propaganda wing of your arms manufacturing or finacing enterprise. The added revenues would actually be taxed in a way that forced any growth in business to actually have to be relatively profitable to justify to taxpayers.

Also, you could force these companies to be more responsible to their shareholders (pension funds).

90% of the problems with the media today are because they are huge corporations.

Also, free air time for candidates would be great. Party political advertisements in the UK are one reason third parties can get a little bit of traction, and they help the parties all subvert the media spin.

War on Terror -- why not ask a couple of our Muslim allies for input on how to defuse Muslim rage? Ask where some of our money can be put to show that we care. Ask what sorts of signs and symbols and language we should be using. Something like "Ich bin ein Berliner" in Arabic.

Deficits -- for pity's sake, Clinton fixed that problem! WTF allows them to claim that we have no ideas on that one? But just for starters, don't allow corporations to excape paying taxes by "moving" overseas. Not even the worst "I pay too much in taxes" type disagrees with that!

1) Terrorism - take the "war on terror" away from DOD and make it a crime issue. Terrorists are not warriors; they are criminals and their actions need to be fought the way crime is fought. Foster international cooperation and get rid of the double-standard for dealing with ANY country (i.e. Saudi Arabia, Israel) that sponsors terrorism. Stop distinguishing between domestic terrorism (i.e. hate groups) and foreign terrorism.

2) The economy - create different tax rates for earnings from labor and interest from interest/investment. Close loopholes that allow US corporations to shelter tax in token foreign subsidiaries. Place a cap on corporate salaries that is directly tied to the income of the lowest-paid worker in the company.

3) The environment - Invest heavily in alternative energy sources and stop providing tax breaks for coal/oil. Provide tax incentives for individuals and corporations who actively pursue ecologically sound pracitices -- for individuals this includes tax breaks and/or low-interest loans for energy saving home improvement/auto purchase -- for companies, tax breaks for investment in energy saving technologies, use of recycled materials, decreasing the packaging of consumer goods, etc.

4) The media - Regulate the cable industry along the same lines as the telephone industry. Reexamine the system for allocating radio spectrum and prevent excessive control over it by large broadcasters (yeah, I know it's vague)

Any facts that we put out would be challenged by an assertion that it was wrong or poor logic - and the media would treat it as a political dispute - and then they would ignore our solution, giving it no discussion time.

With the US media in the gutter whoring for the GOP under some Rovian journalistic ethic of "report the news do not make news" clamp down on their ability to think or verify, I doubt that a Nobel prize thought could get good ink.

The excerise is a good one and the Democratic Party should do it - but it is an excercise that, I suspect, will yield little in positive media - or in additional votes

1. The War on Terror (alloction of funds, domestic/international measures, internationalism in the UN and NATO, Iraq, Afghanistan, North Korea)

This is impossible in this political climate, but the threat from terror is exagerated and our response is insanely disproportional.

I know this will be unpopular even here, but there could be a 9.11 type event every year and it sill wouldn't warrent a response that eclipses the efforts taken to combat drunk drivers, AIDS, breast cancer, hand gun deaths, or deaths from medical mistakes. And none of these other efforts have the additional costs of alienating allies, sending troops to die or curtailing our civil liberties.

It's not a workable proposal at this time, but utlimately we need to pursue peace and justice around the world. That would do more to end terrorism than anything else.

2. The economy (tax cuts, SEC issues and Wall Street, unemployment)

Spending on the war machine is a death spiral. Gephardt's Apollo II project or another similar national effort to acheive energy independence is the way to go.

3. The environment

See #2

4. The media

You're looking at the solution.

5. Insert problem and solution here

Civic responsibility. We need to worry just as much about creating good citizens as we do about job training. We need a greater emphaisis on history and civics in our schools.

Caught your talk on FSTV yesterday afternoon. Very well said. As too problems and solutions let me offer my two cents. Americans want to be happy like all people. The rub is that Americans by and large think that happiness comes in large measure from consumption. That is a falsehood of course yet like drug addicts we need an ever increasing diet of consumption to ward off our growing unhappines.

So my solution to your list of problems is for Americans to consume less and less until we are in harmony with the world. An example. One can drive a Hummer that costs $80,000 and gets 10mpg at best or one can move the same body down the street on a hummer powered bicycle that costs $1,000 and gets 200mpg. Or one can live in a 5,000 square foot house (family of four) that costs $6-700,000 to construct or one can live in a alternative constructed house of 1,000 sq. ft. that costs $10,000 to construct. I will suggest that those living in the smaller house will be happier. And if their lots are the same size those in the smaller house will have ample room to grow much of their own food.

One oftens hears that consuption fuels our economic growth. This is pure bullsh*t. The only thing that grows endlessly is cancer and it kills itself in the end. We need to think about all the things we give up in our thirst to have 'more'. We live ratrace lives. Our kids are raised by daycare employees because both parents must work. As our cities grow many are forced to commute an hour or more each way to work and back. Traffic congestion eats away our personal time. We are like rats on a treadmill running faster and faster just to stay in place.

Anyway that's my rant. Let's all work less, recreate more, focus on activities that require no resource depletion and buy only the things we really need and only those things made by "fair labor". Bob

First, roll back all the Bush tax cuts for the top 2%, and then shore up various corporate tax loopholes. Find some wasteful spending that we can get rid of -- perhaps decrease spending on the Pentagon, Dept of Agriculture, Dept of Transportation, etc; stop the War on Drugs; and get rid of Dept of Homeland Security. With the increase in tax revenue and the decrease in spending, we can balence the budget, which will take a lot of pressure off the economy. We will also have some money to give to the states to help them out of their financial messes. This will help both the fed gov't and the state govt's save programs that are vital to our economy.

We should also increase the minimum wage, which will help create a demand-side spurt in the economy.

That's off the top of my head.

Repeal the 2003 tax cuts and future tax cuts for the top 10% and put that money to a specific cause. It could go towards healthcare/uninsured, save x amount of dollars from repealing the tax cuts and that is the amount that goes to healthcare period. This way it becomes a specific plan and "class welfare" argument is out the door. On the war on terror, turn the operations of Iraq over to the UN and consentrate our efforts on Osama Bin Laden, using the amount of money saved from being in Iraq towards Afghanistan, and only the x amount of dollars that comes from not being in Iraq. Being specific and putting dollar amounts on what is being saved and that only that amount is going to be spent sounds more like a "solution" and the question of how do you "intend" to pay for these "solutions" becomes a moot point.

We can call deficit reduction one of the major causes we need to pay for.

taxes by registering the company in Bermuda or the Cayman Islands.

Repeal the tax cut to those with an income of $200,000 + which helped create the largest deficit in US history.

Force corporations to show stock options as current expenses thus exposing the giveaway programs to the CEO's and upper management by the compensation commitees to the stockholders and putting a lid on those programs.

Bring all utilities under government control removing the profit incentive. Fund the windmill industry thus eliminating much demand for overseas oil and creating a reduction(I have read as much as 90%) in electricity costs to the consumer.

Give tax incentives to the consumer to purchase hybrid automobiles.
Create a national railway system based upon the European rail system which is efficient and fast thus creating jobs and helping the environment.

These are just a few ideas.

There are so many different programs that could be implemented to improve the economy, the environment and our relationships around the world if we can elect a group of people who really give a damn about something but themselves and their fat cat backers.

(the tax loophole one). It seems so straightforward and logical that it could be made law tomorrow: U.S. companies pay U.S. taxes.

But then I think, how do you define a U.S. company? Obviously, it's not the country where their P.O. box is. We can't say it's where the majority of the workers reside, or the owners...can we? I don't have an answer, and I don't want to stop the flow of ideas here on this thread (flame war notwithstanding, LOL)--I'd like someone to come up with a workable definition of corporate nationality that can close the loophole and end this "offshore" movement. Any ideas?

thank gore he invented the internet so we can create a new global media outlet.

just like ted turner did with cable news we can get ahead of the curve by leveraging the internet to serve up all kinds of media and info globally.

one day the web will be as ubiquitous as the phone and accessible via everyone's living room on their big screens not to mention their pdas and ipods/mp3 players.

i am setting up a prototype at http://new.GlobalFreePress.com that essential allows the end users - members - to customize their own 'newspaper' - a misnomer since it can serve up multi media - or content.

they can say what sections they want to see, what topics even what authors they want to read. also they can store their own content and included content from other major news outlets.

also the system is syndicated, meaning every story posted is automagically converted to xml which can then be picked up by other news outlets.

it is great allowing folks from anywhere to participate 24/7/365 the only requirement is that they have internet access.

i envision a globalfreepress in every country one day all networked together and driven by the users since they can not only comment on the stories and take part in the polls they can also submit stories that are then review and edited by the editors and either kicked back or published all right from your web browser no special software required.

if you want a realworld example look at http://slashdot.com

well that is my idea and what i have been working on for the past 3 years. i think i have shown what can be done with very little money and no staff.

i look forward to hearing your feed back will as i eager to turn truthout onto this software to make it easier to disseminate all the great stories you folks publish.

we must NETWORK and we will OVERWHELM them :bounce:

anyone interested in learning more or volunteering please DU me. :hi:

peace
(on edit: typos... got keep me in the back room with the servers ;->

Stop hiring illegal immigrants!!!

It is illegal to hire illegal immigrants. Employers should be fined for breaking the law.

Stop selective enforcement of the law, deport the illegal and fine the employer.

Before an employer hires the employee, it should be the employerÕs responsibility to check whether his or her social security # is legit or not.

From a purely selfish standpoint, Americans should be in favor of illegal immigrants
because it maintains your lifestyle.

Those groceries you bought were picked by illegal slave immigrant labor, right here in the good old US of A.

The truth is that illegal slave immigrant labor is the lifeblood of American business, and
without it, the US would shut down.

So you should be thankful, NO, you should be ashamed that your lifestyle depends on illegal slave immigrant labor.

BTW, Being able to buy guns at gun fairs without background checks is a danger to national security, not an illegal immigrant driving a car or boarding a plane.

(None of them really original)

1)UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE -- This could be done with eitehr A) Single-payer universal coverage or B) A voluntary basic health plan with sliding fee scale, or some combination ofthe two approaches....But whatever, no more tinkering around the edges.

2)FCC Reregulation -- Put some damn teeth back into the notion that broadcast licenses are a public resource, and that anyone who holds a license realizes that it is a privilege that requires public service, public access and balance.

3)Anti -Trust Enforcement. Stop rubber stamping these mega mergers. Use existing and new regulations to bring back a competative economy, and tame the power of the giants.

4)Campaign finance reform. Combione media reform to reduce cost and open up access with real changes to make politicians more accountable to more people, instead of just big donors.

5)Raise the minimum wage. Promore restoration of workers rights in otehr ways.

With the economy in the state is it currently in, there are tons of people who have been pushed out of full time with benefits jobs.

These people are now without health care coverage.

This is an undisputed fact that conservatives can agree with.

But every time someone (Like Hillary Clinton) tries to set up a national health care plan for all Americans, the conservatives cry "Oh NO! Socialism! Run Away!"

Now, however, there are so many people out of work or temping or working multiple part time jobs who have no benefits yet work 40+ hours a week. No sick time, no health care, no vacations, no holiday pay. I would bet that most average Americans, both liberal and conservative either is a person in this situation or knows someone who is.

Most people will happily assist a friend or relative.

But industry these days is evolving into a two tier economy. Full time workers and temps. I lump in part timers with temps since they also don't get benefits. Companies are just not hiring people for full time with benefits positions unless they're management jobs. They contract out any time possible.

So let's take the burden off companies to provide health care to its employees and set up a national health care plan that covers ALL of us. We pay for it by perhaps raising taxes on corporate profits (leaving a net gain once you figure in the money the companies are saving by not having to pay for health care). The companies win by not having to pay the costs related to health care coverage or administer health plans.

And for the conservatives who would object to losing freedom of choice in selecting a medical plan, I ask them if their company chooses the health insurance provider or if they have a choice. Never have I seen a company offer its employees more than two options: Take the plan we offer you or opt out completely.

Perhaps a national health care plan would allow choices between several insurance providers. The details can be worked out, first we need to sell the idea to the nation.

It never has worked efficiently for all working people. With so many companies changing plans, people losing and/or changing jobs, health care availability has come to a sad state. We don't have to have one nationalized healthcare program. It could easily be a combination. We can learn a lot from the nations who have gone before us in providing health care for their citizens, we don't have to entirely reinvent the wheel.

Nothing less than that will get the media's attention. Maybe next spring, for an indefinitive duration but with a clear starting date, we could organize a complete boycott on tv and cable. They've consolidated to the point where they all have active television interests. And it would hurt the big car manufacturers and the pharmaceutical industry.

This would get attention for other issues. The media is all that holds these crooks together. The media must change.

ctually reversing most of Shrub's decisions owuld solve alot of problems. He has gotton us into such a hole that we will have to undo the damage he did fiorst to get anwhere.
But anyway, I guess I can think of a few ideas that hopefully nto too many people have already proposed. Please excuse any ranting or typos...

well one thing that would help with both the War on terror and the economy is this bank that is located in places like India The grunseld bank? the Gruenfed? I can't remember but I've heard about it on PBS a long time ago and then I read Bushwacked and heard about it again...

Basicly this back gives loans to the poor to set up small businesses and such. So far it has helped a lot of people. Basicly if you invest in a community, that community will grow. Al people need is a chance.

I think what i am saying here is that we need to get rid of the dispairity between the US and the rest of the world.
The reasons, if they aren't already clear is that:
1. our jobs keep leaving the US becuase the rest of the world simply doesn't have the same rights and powers that workers here in the US do. I'm pretty sure Mexican or Indonesian workers would love to have a minimum wage and an equivelent of OSHA in thier own countries. They simply need a bit of help in getting them.
2. Not to mention that if people in the rest of the world had as much money as we do, they could start buying stuff from the US instead of the other way around.
3. NOT TO ALSO FORGET MENTIONING that people with good jobs and stable homes aren't all that interested as a group jyhads or suicide attacks. So terrorism has a lot more difficulty getting recruits. (not that this is a perfect solution but it sure as hell can't hurt) I think history is also pretty clear that the more people that stop just barely survining and begin to prosper, the more they begin to want more rights and freedoms.

Would tying foriegn aid to human rights reforms be too knieve?

Believe it or not, I beleive things like the IMF can do a lot of good, if they go back to thier original purpose intead of the financial viking act they are doing now by plundering third world nations of all the have and then getting out before the shit hits the fan.

And while we are on the subject, how about real Tort reform instead of the joke Shrub gave us where basicly reform meant protecting big business from being sued when the government didn't bother doing it's job of regulating.

As for the environment, the solution is simple. Give corporations a real financial incentive to become non polluters. I have no problem giving money to corporation if they are doing something constructive with the money. The trick that has yet to be achieved is making sure that those corporations actually DO use that money for a constructive purpose. So far any politician that voted on any such measure was so corrupt as to make sure that there were plenty of loopholes.
Hey, why not make mandatory jail sentences for certain white collor crimes? IF you can get life for robbing a 7-11, shouldn't you get at least that for robbing thousands of people at the same time of millions of dollers?! Shouldn't the harm inflicted go into the sentencing?
I think the point here is that corproations are greedy but they are supposed to be. So we need to use that greed against them.

And if you want to get really fanciful..asteroid mining would serve a lot of the environment's problems. Once you manage to actually get into space, it's easier to mine one of the close asteroids like the apollos then to strip mine the earth. And then you have microwave beam stations and manufacturing and stuff, and the space ports would probably be close to the equator where most of the third world is so they could get rich just leasing the land...
And please stop looking at me like there's a third eye sprouting on my forehead;-)

I could probbaly think of more but thats all I got right now.

actually a question... Is there any way around the propaganda machine?

What about things liek Indy media and other sources? What about foriegn sources like the Observer and the BBC? ( I heard the observer is coming to America)

What if more people got hooked into the internet or alternmative sources? what if we could find a way to get sources from the internet to people not on the internet? What if people started donating books by progressive authors to libraries? What we started a progressive book club so everybody could get these books?

Are flyers too primitive?

If people are being misled by the mainstream press, then obviously what we need to do is give them an alternative...

"The problem is not that you are not thinking outside the box. The problem is you are still insisting there even is a box to think outside of."
Some guy I met in a coffee house.