I'm now undecided, leaning *Kerry*.

Kerry was very well prepared tonight, and I am extremely impressed. When attacked by Lieberman about being a waffler, Kerry knocked it out of the park while looking reasonable, and I imagined him doing that to Bush. He brought out his Democratic credentials at the end of the debate, and has been talking a lot about the environment lately. During the debate, Kerry also addressed the tax questions professionally, and was very well prepared for possible counterattacks by Dean, anticipating the Bush economy #s by citing the Brookings institution. In addition, he made a few jokes, and while he messed one up, he sounded real while doing it.

I've been supporting Dean, who has his own set of strengths and weaknesses. But I would hate to get us all the way to a debate position with Shrub, and miss our chance. Kerry, in my view, would be able to finish Bush off at the end of the campaign. He has foreign policy credentials, and has been a credible liberal throughout his career. The "aristocratic" stuff can be spun as experience, professionalism, and most importantly, competence. I feel really good about this candidate right now, while all of Dean's debate performances have been weak. It just isn't the same Dean we saw in March; it is the scripted Dean, the stumped Dean, the slow talking Dean, et cetera.

I'll support either of these guys if they win the nomination, and my vote really doesn't matter for the primaries, since I live in Illinois. But for now, I'm undecided, leaning Kerry.

I think Kerry is waiting for the big guns. Right before the primaries, he is going to launch a torrent of verbal and speech skills against Deann.

Actually, Kerry is my second choice.

Just make sure to keep your options open so that you don't become a live-or-die symbiote devotee to a candidate blindly. Kerry's the best candidate IMHO, and I hope his strong showings in these debates will help spread the message which has been dripping out too slowly for my comfort.

And I have a slight pre-existing antipathy towards him... it's rapidly evaporating into support.

He would be my second choice after Clark.

You'd struck me as a Dean supporter through-and-through.

:toast: to open-mindedness! I think Kerry did well tonight, too, btw.

DTH

issue. I would hate to see our party do this.

...but I would NOT underestimate him. He is an experience poll and frankly one of the good guys. He would MURDER shrub in a debate. For the record I have not decided between Edwards, Kerry, Clark. I was surprised that Edwards didn't do better (Patriot Act - HELLO) and Clark is just too green to impress anyone in these formats, but I still got a soft spot for that guy.

I thought he did well tonight. What didn't you like?

... saw him on one of the morning shows and thought he hit it out of the park. Guess I has expectations that he would really shine tonight and thought he kind of go lost in the pack. I am really frustrated about Edwards, his plans are the best and frankly, all the other candidates have ripped him off. I just wish he would catch fire or something. Oh, well, still alot of time and he is moving up.

Hey, I am realistic. I LOVE Dean, but if Edwards or Clark were to be the nominee, I would fully support either one of them.

I am feeling more and more lone when people tell me about guns.

I think this was Dean's best debate. He made his positive points, attacked Bush when appropriate, and responded to the couple of attacks on him without getting negative as he has in a couple of prior debates. His closing statement nicely expressed the theme of his campaign.

Kerry made a good statement of his position on tax cuts, but otherwise he was mediocre. He kept inserting his prepared lines into the debate instead of responding to the questions.

I thought Kerry did well - I liked when he said we had a right to expect our President to behave in a certain manner - build a coalition .... that strucks at the heart of what people are struggling with now.

It is not enough to say - I was right, I told you so - too many Americans supported Bush based on the evidence they heard. What Kerry is saying is I voted for security, we had a right to expect our Bush to not lie and to act responsibly - he hasn't and he lied. That is much closer to most American's view - and makes people feel better because they don't feel quite as stupid.

and Shrub did not. But that's all just now oozing out piecemeal. Kerry says it over and over again. I find it disconcerting that Dean says that he KNEW that the war was wrong/a fraud/unnecessary/whatever way way back when. What information did he have access to in order to make a solid evaluation of that information? He distrusted Bush, as most of us here did, but the American people ALL had a right to expect that our president was lying us into war.

And if some Democratic heckler shows up at a Bush campaign event in the infamous "chicken suit", he is going to get Rodney-Kinged by the goon squad.

I would give a lot to see Bush debate Sharpton.

:evilgrin:

I'm constructing a comparison page on the Democratic candidate. I've got a very basic chart with general information and links to web pages, and yesterday I added an article comparing the candidates' plans for Iraq. The chart needs updating already, but it's a start ..

http://www.mahablog.com/id15.html

The Iraq comparison article might be more useful, because in some cases their plans for getting out of Iraq are revealing (both good and bad) --

http://www.mahablog.com/2003.10.19_arch.html#1067101540679

in a debate where many say my candidate did great i end up missing it. but i'm not surprised he would do well. still early, but we have some great candidates. isn't it great to be torn over candidates because you like more than 1 ? all of our candidates would kick bush's ass big time.

I completely agree; We have some great people up there and they could all kick GWB's ass. Which they all did tonight.

Kerry was very presidential. He was also funny; he kept cracking jokes.

They all did a good job of defending themselves when attacked.

Al Sharpton rocked the place. He took it, by a mile. You have to try to watch, just to hear Al.

Long-winded, pompous, perennially complaining and ongoing attacks of other candidates.

What's to like?

What about Kerry's performance would appeal to a Dean supporter? I don't get it. He was as boring and annoying as usual, with the regular amount of attacks on Dean.

I know that you're very conscientious about your support. Best of luck in finalizing your position and I know we'll be together in the end regardless of who the nominee is.

I think JK's really coming into his own now. If only we could cut down the number of candidates already!

This is a critical aspect of these debates. Kerry doesn't seem to get flustered at all. He doesn't make faces (which the camera might catch, and does repeatedly to Dean), he doesn't sigh. He addresses facts and he knows an incredibly amount about so many subjects... and the tradeoffs policy positions require.

He's probably the most well-rounded candidate in the race. I wish he did better in rallies and yelling, but then again, I do like that he projects an image of one who could get us out of this mess without making more enemies.

some one HAS to get through to him that the cameras are always on and directors are waiting for him to do that!!!

come on...this is the big leagues now.

I've been leaning Dean, but the more I see of Kerry the more impressed I am. I can't see Bush bullying him in a debate, he uses humor well, and I think he's extremely qualified. Interesting that he's now associating himself with the Clinton administration, something that only Gephardt was really doing to any extent before tonight.

I think everyone did well tonight (sans Lieberman), so being undecided isn't the worst thing in the world. We have some excellent candidates.

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Nice quote PeteNYC

"One of my colleagues compared Enron executives to the Corleone family. Well I think that's insulting to the Corleones." John Kerry

(except Lieberman). It seems like everyone got in at least one or two good points. Kerry seems much more relaxed, and very well-prepared. (I think it was unfair to Dean that they show him making faces and muttering...they don't do that with anyone else.) Edwards and Clark are just loaded with charisma.

You said, "I think it was unfair to Dean that they show him making faces and muttering...they don't do that with anyone else."

But he is the only one that DOES that at the debates, which is why they ALWAYS split the screen and zero in on Dean when someone at the debate is criticizing him. ALWAYS. Because he comes through with the facial expressions and mouthing of denials.

It's also why Dean gets sooo much coverage in the media. The chances are good that whoever covers him will get a sound bite that can be used over and over again - and not always in a positive light.

And you know this how?
I read earlier here... that he is simply signaling to the moderator for a chance to rebut... just like everyone else?

How do you know he's the only one who does that?

That sold me to the Kerry camp. He has some classic one-liners and a wealth of expertise and knowledge to not just be a soundbite dependent man.

Along with his issues including the enviroment, energy independence, American Modernization, and health care make him a great canidate.


I enjoy Dean but he's just not it anymore like he used to be for me.

When they asked Dean about his foreign policy experience and he said that he had judgment and good advisers...

Kerry responded with this: What we've seen is a president who ran saying, 'I'm going to have good advisers around me'," he said of Bush, adding that led to Vice President Dick Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and others. "And look at the judgments they made. We're electing a president of the United States, not a staff."

Kerry clobbered Dean with that line and he has a very valid point. I think Dean made a mistake mentioning he'd have good advisors. He should have just stuck with his own good judgement. Citing his good judgement helped him see that the war in Iraq was wrong. If he would have done that he would have been better off.

I will not support Kerry, unless he wins the nomination, but he has the best thought out issues and plans of any of them.

If only we could get a candidate who has:

a) Dean's passion and conviction
b) Clark's resume
c) Kerry's ideas/platform
d) Sharpton's debating skills

That would be the perfect candidate.

there are also many of us who prefer the more reasoned, elegant speech of Kerry's...as is. Coarsened debate is entertaining, but, not what I want as contrast to Bush and the coarsened tone of the rightwing.

People who know John speak highly of his passion and conviction. Chris Heinz was right here on DU not too long ago doing just that, and his daughter Vanessa has been campaigning for him doiong the same.
Also, Kerry is well known as a debate pro.
The only thing Kerry doesn't have in his resume is 4 stars and a NATO command, but that in no way diminishes any of his 40 years of public service, and I am not convinced those Clark particulars will translate into a great president.

has withstood. Also, Kerry's priorities are in the wrong place, IMHO. Our country is heading towards fascism and Kerry is trying to shift the debate away from attacks on Bush to attacks on Dean. He even spend much of *this* debate on attacking Dean.

Kerry's time has been spent attacking Dean instead of Bush over the past couple of months:
…
ATTACKS BY FELLOW DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATES ON GOVERNOR DEAN

STARTING SEPTEMBER 1

Democrat hopefuls rip chief rival Dean; Kerry, Lieberman turn up heat on front-runner - AP, 9/1

Kerry slams Dean - Boston Globe, 9/1

Democratic White House Hopefuls Focus Attacks On Dean - The Bulletin's Frontrunner, 9/2

Kerry launches campaign, takes aim at Bush, Dean - Seattle Times, 9/3

Kerry Changes Stance, Takes On Dean New Campaign Tactic Highlights Differences Between Candidates - Boston Globe, 9/4

Rivals rip surging Dean - on paper; Democrats blast him in debate handouts - Dallas Morning News, 9/5

Lieberman Leads Attacks On Dean In First Debate - WSJ, 9/5

Dean's Quick Rise Makes Him Target Of His Own Party - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 9/7

Lieberman Criticizes Dean About His Remarks on Israel - NY Sun, 9/8

Taking a risk, Lieberman takes on front-running Dean - AP, 9/9

Edwards Critical of Dean Over Race Remark - AP, 9/10

Lieberman, Kerry rip Dean; Dems turn feisty in 2nd debate - Boston Globe, 9/10

Gephardt rips into Dean on health care - AP, 9/12

Presidential Candidate Congressman Gephardt Unleashed A Stinging Attack On Rival Howard Dean - FOX News, 9/12

Gephardt Attacks Dean on 2 Social Programs - NYT, 9/13

Gephardt accuses Dean of backing GOP policies - Baltimore Sun, 9/13

Gephardt criticizes Dean for past positions - Des Moines Register, 9/13

Gephardt plays hardball with front-runner Dean - Manchester Union Leader, 9/13

Gephardt Shifts Attacks to Dean - WP, 9/13

After Climbing To The Top, Dean Discovers He's A Target Rivals Set Sights On Front-Runner - Boston Globe, 9/14

In A Shift Of Strategy, Kerry Takes On Dean - Boston Globe, 9/14

Gephardt is latest to attack Dean - Chicago Tribune, 9/14

Gephardt Aims At Dean, Linking Him To Gingrich - St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 9/14

Kerry rips Bush but adds Dean hit - AP, 9/15

Gephardt Steps Up Criticism Of Dean, Says He Agreed With 'Gingrich Republicans' - Frontrunner, 9/15

Gephardt: An Attack A Day Keeps The Doctor At Bay? - Hotline, 9/15

Dean becomes a target - Newsday, 9/15

Gephardt Uses Web Site to Criticize Dean - AP, 9/16

Gephardt: Moredeanbashing.com - Hotline, 9/16

Kerry Openly Criticizes Dean's Stance On Tax Cuts For Middle Class Families - Frontrunner, 9/16

Still under attack, Dean goes easy on his rivals - AP, 9/17

Kerry Steps Up Attacks On Dean Over Trade - Frontrunner, 9/23

Kerry Attacks Rival Dean Over Protectionism - NYT, 9/23

Despite interest in Clark, Dean is still top target of other candidates - Philadelphia Inquirer, 9/25

Among the 10, Two Are Tested the Most; Newcomer Clark Avoids Serious Gaffes; Dean Withstands Sharper Challenges - WP, 9/26

10 Democratic rivals debate national woes, attack well-financed Dean and ignore newcomer Clark - Knight-Ridder, 9/26

Democrats spare Clark in his first debate and go after Dean - AP, 9/26

Democratic Candidates Focus Attacks On Dean In Primary Debate - Frontrunner, 9/26

Clark survives debate, as hopefuls target Dean; Candidates' attacks include a comparison to Gingrich - Dallas Morning News, 9/26

Debate Rivals Target Dean - Hartford Courant, 9/26

Debate: All Eyes On The General, All Attacks Aimed At Dean - Hotline, 9/26

Gephardt, Kerry attack Dean over prior views - Washington Times, 9/26

Dean Is Targeted by Rivals - LA Times, 9/26

Bush, Dean under attack in 10-way Democratic debate - Myrtle Beach Sun-News, 9/26

Fellow Dems Diss Dean As Sparks Fly In Debate - NY Post, 9/26

Attacking the Leader; Debate barbs aimed at front-runner Dean - NY Newsday, 9/26

Party unity? The candidates were united, in going after Howard Dean - Phila. Inquirer, 9/26

Dean Takes The Heat From Rivals - Baltimore Sun, 9/26

Clark Debut Doesn't Change Democrats' Focus on Dean - NY Times, 9/27

Democratic rivals target Bush -- and Dean - Salon.com, 9/27

Gephardt attacks Dean Medicare record - AP, 9/29

Democrats: Candidates Criticize Dean's Record On Medicare - American HealthLine, 9/29

Gephardt Compares Dean's Record On Medicare To Gingrich's - Frontrunner, 9/29

Gephardt: Takes His Sparring With Dean To The Sunday Shows - Hotline, 9/29

Attacks on Dean may leave voters dizzy - St. Petersburg Times, 9/29

Dean Rivals Try To Turn His Comments On Key Issues Against Him - Frontrunner, 10/2

Kerry Attacks Dean For Bush Pact - NYT, 10/2

Rivals Target Dean's Blunt Comments - WP, 10/2

Kerry Attacks Dean Over '93 Nuclear Waste Accord - Frontrunner, 10/6

Kerry maintains attacks on Dean over Medicare - DMR, 10/7

Kerry: Still Hammering Away At Dean On Medicare - Hotline, 10/7

Clark, Dean Are Targeted in Debate - LA Times, 10/10

Gephardt roasts Dean on past political moves - Myrtle Beach Sun-News, 10/12

Mutual Threat Unites 2 Rivals Opposing Dean - NYT, 10/12

Gephardt and Kerry unite against Dean - IHT, 10/13

Dean Continues To Draw Fire From Rivals At Des Moines AARP Forum - Frontrunner, 10/16

Other Candidates Again Target Dean; At Iowa Seniors Forum, He Is Chided for Views on Medicare, Bush Tax Cuts - WP, 10/16

'Divers' Dedicated to Dig Dirt on Dean - AP, 10/21

Edwards raps Dean on health plan - Manchester Union Leader, 10/21

Kerry Criticizes Dean Oversight of Vermont Egg Farm - AP, 10/22
…
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/001964.html#more

Also, the reason you hear many parts of Dean's stump speeches when he speaks is because he has already laid out his positions and they are solid and, in general, they stand up to criticism. So, unlike Kerry, Dean is able to stay on a consistant message and reinforce that message with each appearance.

Remember that while *you* have already heard Dean's stump speech, most Americans's haven't and many of the folks who are watching are seeing parts of it for the first time.

borgforamerica as a legitimate news source

:eyes:

or should we pretend that Dean never criticised anyone in the 8 months before?

Can you put together a timeline for ALL the attacks?

"The increasingly pitched response by Mr. Kerry's campaign also seems to reflect the fact that Mr. Kerry has surrounded himself with advisers who famously counsel their clients against turning the other cheek. "The basic rule in politics is that you're either on the offensive scoring or on the defensive being scored on," one Democrat close to Mr. Kerry said tonight." ~ New York Times, May 12, 2003

It appears Kerry is now playing 'offense'.

Starting last January? Or isn't that a reality for the Deanies?

n/t

... that WILL be coming full strength towards the man who gets the Democratic nod, the person who will be the new face of the party.

I have nothing against Dean, and I think he's great for bringing what he has to the primary race, but I'm not confident that he'll be able to keep himself together underneath the pressure.

Kerry, on the other hand, I have known for a while to be a great speaker, a calm and stinging debater, and a solid liberal on the issues. Being a veteran in these times will help, and he has no known skeletons in his closet other than a few petty squabbles about medals and a fire hydrant.

Those are some of the reasons why he's MY favorite right now. Tell me what you think.

Kerry is it by far. The onslaught will be intense, and our candidate will need everything at his disposal. Some Dean supporters mistakenly believe that Bush is so ragingly incompetent that a ham sandwich could beat him. Well, the sad reality is that what is obvious to us is not so to the general public, and Bush will be a tough and formidable opponent to bring down.
Kerry can do it. He's our best shot.

Alone, I think the GOP knows Bush won't be able to stand toe-to-toe with the Dem candidate in a straight debate, so they won't even try. If Bush is given a tough question he can't answer, he'll give a positive, feel-good answer to a different question. He will stay on his monotonous talking-points message unless he is absolutely forced away from it. Kerry seems to be better equipped to do so than Dean, IMO. Whoever wins the nod needs to be able to speak and be heard on THEIR terms, not those of the GOP, because that's a sure-fire way to lose.

they would have done so LONG ago when he was holding their asses to the fire on BCCI, IranContra and CIA drugrunning.

Kerry, IMHO, would best hold up against the GOP media onslaught...

they agree on so much, how could he not do well?

Kerry is as green as they come on the environment, he's rock solid on labor issues, abortion rights, business interests, and pretty much everything else. Peddle your wares elsewhere.

He and the GOP agreed that the debate was about HOW to invade Iraq, not whether or not we should in the first place. And he and the GOP agreed that it was about WHAT KIND of tax cuts to give, not whether or not the tax cuts were appropriate.

That's enough for me.

.

(Just kidding.)
Glad to have you. Whenever you look over the candidates, ask yourself, "Who can beat Bush?" There's more than one who can, but none of them are named Howard Dean.
If Kerry can survive this brutal primary, he'll beat Bush like a rented mule. I hope you'll help us give him the chance.

make him a tough candidate, and paired with a candidate with Clark, I forsee the GOP having loads of problems.

If the Kerry campaign wants to get Dean supporters on board, why not talk up the product instead of bashing everyone else? We never see McDonald's marketing their hamburgers by bashing Burger King, for instance.

Kerry was my first choice until Clark jumped in, but I'm leaning back towards Kerry after CNN interviewed him last night. He came off as very polished, strong, resolute, in control, not like how he was when he first got started. I'm torn between him and Clark simply because Kerry looks like he can handle himself better in terms of dealing with the Right's attack machine and because he has a SOLID liberal record and is rock-solid on the environment. The fact that him being a Catholic he stood up to the Pope and told him to keep his nose OUT of American politics impressed me a good deal as well. I'm not sure if I want to go with him or Clark when the primary rolls around.