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Bloodbath. The War Is Now Unwinnable.

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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:07 AM
Original message
Bloodbath. The War Is Now Unwinnable.
Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all convictions, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

- W.B. Yeats, ‘The Second Coming’

History loves to repeat itself.

On January 31, 1968, soldiers from North Vietnam launched what has since become known as the Tet Offensive. The attacks were breathtaking in scope: Vietcong soldiers stormed the highland towns of Banmethout, Kontum and Pleiku, invaded 13 of the 16 provincial capitols in the Mekong Delta, attacked the headquarters of both American and South Vietnam’s armies. and took the U.S. embassy in Saigon. The attacks came as a complete shock to American forces. A 1968 CIA report concluded, “The intensity, coordination and timing of the attacks were not fully anticipated.” The report went on to state that, “another major unexpected point” was the ability of the Vietcong to strike so many targets at the same time.

In the technical jargon of war, the attacks were a failure, as the Vietcong soldiers were eventually beaten back. General Giap, commander of Vietnamese forces, had a different perspective. “For us, you know, there is no such thing as a single strategy,” said Giap after the war. “Ours is always a synthesis, simultaneously military, political and diplomatic - which is why quite clearly, the Tet offensive had multiple objectives.”

It worked. By March of 1968, President Lyndon Johnson’s approval rating had fallen to 30%, and approval for his handling of the war had fallen to 26%. Walter Cronkite, the most trusted voice in American television journalism, stated publicly that the war was now unwinnable. An explosion of dissent rocked the American homeland, culminating in Johnson’s decision not to seek re-election, and in the police riot at the doorstep of the Democratic National Convention in Chicago.

The two lessons from Tet: 1) Underestimating a guerilla enemy that is fighting on its own ground is deadly policy; 2) The American people will not long stand for a bloodbath in a faraway land that has no clear objective, spends the lives of American soldiers to no good end, and costs billions and billions of dollars better spent elsewhere. The Tet Offensive in January 1968 began a long, slow slide into ignominy and defeat for the United States that, to this day, still echoes long and loud along the hallways of power and the streets of everyday America.

It is happening again. In the last 72 hours in Iraq, a dizzying series of attacks have rocked Baghdad. It began with the downing of a Blackhawk helicopter. It did not end there.

Several missiles were fired at the Baghdad Hotel where Deputy Defense Secretary was staying during his tour of the war. Wolfowitz, one of the chief architects of the conflict, escaped unharmed but was visibly shaken after the attacks. An American soldier was killed in that attack.

In separate attacks, three American soldiers were killed and four wounded. Two of the deaths came when a patrol from the 1st Armored Division was struck by a roadside bomb. The third death came in Abu Ghraib, on the western edge of Baghdad, when a Military Police unit was attacked. There have been 349 American soldiers killed in Iraq during this conflict, and thousands more wounded. Since George W. Bush strutted across an aircraft carrier in the garb of a combat pilot on May 1st, after he said, “Bring ‘em on,” there have been 211 American soldiers killed.

Four different Iraqi police stations were bombed in Baghdad on Monday, and a massive explosion tore into the offices of the International Red Cross. 34 people were killed, and almost 224 were wounded. The attacks took place in rapidfire succession between 8:30a.m. and 10:30 a.m. local time, strongly suggesting a high degree of coordination.

The similarities to Tet are chilling. In 1968, the attacks came at the onset of the Vietnamese New Year, a holiday that American command believed would herald a temporary quieting of the violence. In Iraq, these attacks come at the beginning of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. The American command in Baghdad believed the holiday would bring a slacking of the attacks that have been plaguing American forces. This assumption ran so strong that the Baghdad curfew was partially lifted by American forces yesterday.

The most pointed similarity is clear: These attacks are meant to cause a political reaction as well as a military reaction. The United States military, on the whole, will not be undermined by these attacks or by the loss of four more soldiers. The political ramifications, however, are a different story, and in the long run the political reaction will directly affect the military.

The Bush administration has been trying to sell a rosy perspective of this war to the American people, a perspective that was eviscerated by these attacks. Worse, the attacks will have a further chilling effect upon the administration’s attempts to bring the international community into this fight, something even the most hard-core go-it-aloners in Washington have come to see as absolutely necessary. With every explosion, with every targeting of the United Nations and the Red Cross in Iraq, this war becomes more and more the sole property of the United States and the Bush administration. The old sign above the cash register at your corner store says it all: “You break it, you buy it.”

George W. Bush said the intricately coordinated and highly effective attacks were a sign that the Iraqi insurgents were becoming “desperate.” He described the attackers as people who “hate freedom” and “love terror.” This is the reaction of a man residing comfortably in Bizarro World, a land where up is down, black is white, and reality has no place at the table. Basically, Bush is trying to tell us that these attacks are good news, that these “desperate” moves are a sign of looming American victory.

Ask the thousands of dead Iraqis if this is good news. Ask the Red Cross, which is strongly considering pulling out of Iraq, if this is good news. Ask the international community, which is being pressured into leaping aboard this sinking ship, if this is good news. Ask the families of the dead and wounded American soldiers if this is good news.

Ask al Qaeda, and they will tell you this is nothing but good news. This war on Iraq, built on a foundation of misinformation and lies, has led to the greatest recruiting drive in that group’s bloody history. The opportunity to kill more Americans is good news for them. The ability to rock the American government is good news for them. Osama bin Laden smiles today, and it was George W. Bush who put that grin on his face.
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Homer12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
1. Great post
We are seeing the evolution and adaptation of the Iraqi Guerilla's to our Military.

Well thought out and highly effective attacks against our soldiers, Usully with explosives becuase our soldiers are amrored well.

We are in a Guerilla War.
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Tommy_Douglas Donating Member (242 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
2. This war was never winnable...
It should have never been fought.
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MojoKrunch Donating Member (513 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #2
24. Does anyone here actually think it was supposed to be winnable?
I mean wasn't the point to destabilize the region to justify putting American military bases in Iraq?

Mojo
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wildwww2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #24
74. The point was to have a war going on so Dim Son can steal his way to
four more years in Al Gore`s White House. War Prez and all that good garbage. I hope the American people are not stupid enough to fall for the pompous swill he is trying to feed his neglected flock. It is pure GOP poison.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President
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MUAD_DIB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
27. This war may have been winnable, but

the atrocities that would have to be comitted to make it succeed would surely put us shoulder to shoulder with the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Napolean, the Romans and everybody else that would use the mailed fist over human wisdom.

We should not be there. Saddam was bad, but in the eyes of the world how shall we appear?
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Ardee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
65. wholehearted agreement
Every thinking person with a grasp of history knew that this is precisely what would happen inboth Afghanistan and Iraq.As the administration is composed of folks with a grasp of history the conclusion must be that they knew and proceeded anyway. The chance to continue to prey upon the fears of americans was worth provoking radical Islam, after all the point is to continue to loot the world for the benefit of Bush and Cheney's friends is it not?

Join me folks as we continue our shuffle along with "....what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches towards Bethlehem to be born....
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Ohio Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
3. Well done, Will.
Is this for Truthout?
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
4. So, basically, George is an Al Qaida recruiting poster?
Edited on Mon Oct-27-03 11:17 AM by aquart
P.S. This war was always unwinnable and we told them so.
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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. It's just like the op-ad that TomPaine.com ran before the invasion...
"Uncle Osama wants YOU... to invade Iraq."

Remember that one? Seems as if it's come to fruition....
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Homer12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. A guerilla war means that the US military
will have a long lasting presence in the middle east.

Which is in the strategic intrest of the PNAC and the neo-cons.

Not only not having an exit strategy was part of the plan, but also that having a longer engagment means the creation of more entrenched US forces.

Controlling Iraq (well, that can be debated), gives the US Imperialist neo-conservatives long-term strategic power over the middle east, energy resources (who gets them), leverage of INdian sub-continent and the rest Asia.

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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
53. Yes, that is their fantasy.
It's right up there with their belief that the darkies were happy being slaves.

The only way to achieve PNAC goals is to make Hitler look like a little old lady from Pasadena who only killed on Sundays.

We would have to kill a minimum of forty million people to achieve PNAC goals. And then it still wouldn't work.

But, darn those PNAC boys, they're gonna keep trying.

Idiots.
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MetaTrope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
15. "Al Quaeda - We Got America Out of Saudi Arabia"
One air base for rent.
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NicoleM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
5. I remember
before the war, Scott Ritter said we wouldn't win it. People laughed.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
6. The parallels are strikingly similar...
I was in Viet Nam during Tet of '68. I see us falling into the same trap. (See my post about what I think our new strategy should be)
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RapidCreek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
49. Link Please
:)
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
8. The Ramadan Massacre
I think this offensive needs a snappy title attached to it...Yes, the "fun" is just beginning...
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Clark Can WIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
9. I believe the attacks were in part
a direct response to Bush's "sunshine & posies" initiative with the press lately. Not that the attacks would not have happened anyway, but the timing seems a bit beyond cooncindence.
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DeepModem Mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
11. Truth, as ever, Will -- do you see ElsewheresDaughter's post?
I heard you speak, and remember you having much to say about Walter Pincus, and what he's been writing in the WaPo. ED says Pincus says he was one of the six called -- did this ever occur to you?
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ScotTissue Donating Member (294 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
12. If that was the Tet....
If the attacks of the last two days were the Tet offensive, then the US can sustain those kind of losses indefinitely. If all Ramadan is bloody, it would be a worse problem.

But I think you underestimate the scope of the Tet offensive.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:25 AM
Original message
Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
13. "Military victory cannot exist without political victory"
So said William J. Lederer (co-author of "The Ugly American") in his book about Vietnam (written BEFORE Tet) "Our Own Worst Enemy"

I find myself going back to this 35-year-old tome more and more as the days go by.

Can you believe this incredible POS statement by FreeRepublic?
(link)
http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Oct25_2003_antiwar_report.htm

(snip)
"We are pretty happy with the way things have been going" in Iraq, said Kristinn Taylor, who led the group from a small rally near the Capitol before the main march near the White House. He said his organization wants to show "that this is not going to be like Vietnam where we won the war on the battleground, but lost the propaganda war at home."
(snip)

Excuse me, K. Taylor, but it's already too late. You've lost the propaganda war, and it was lost before the war even started.

(sigh!) Some people just never ever learn.

:evilfrown:
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. Many more Americans were against this invasion from the beginning..
than were against the Viet Nam War in the beginning. What does thta prove? That GWB did not give a damn that there was no consensus for war. He would have his war and sell it later. Now he's got a lemon on his hands that is getting more difficult to sell with each passing day.
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maha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
14. Excellent post n/t
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markses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
16. NLF guerillas did NOt take the US Embassy
They stormed the embassy compound, and were prevented from taking the embassy.

You should also make a distinction between "soldiers from North Vietnam" and "Viet Cong" (a derogatory word, in any case, and not suitable for scholarship - it translates roughly to Vietnamese Commie...try NLF).

And why not mention Hue? Perhaps the most shocking aspect of the Tet Offensive was the seizure of Hue City by PAVN and NLF troops. It took a bloody month to dislodge them from the Citadel.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Thanks, will fix
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huckleberry Donating Member (729 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
17. Excellent piece!
I was just watching the head of the Red Cross on CNN. He said that they would make their decision by this Saturday on what they will do. He said that they would DEFINITELY not accept U.S. military protection as they do not want to be affiliated with the coalition.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
20. Spot On Will
and yet that little chump sits in the WH this morning with Bremer and Rummy and laughs, and whistleasses words that we will continue on.
No, HE wont continue on, the soldiers there will be the targets as the attacks increase daily and they will be shot like sitting ducks..
Im waiting patiently for the DEMS to start screaming Bring Them Home!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Byrd and Kennedy can begin the chorus...
Its time to QUIT and GET OUR KIDS OUT NOW

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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
21. Geez and I though things were hunky dory in Iraq.
WTF is Wolfowitz doing over there? And in my local paper I saw that one of our GOP Representatives was in Iraq. WTF? Are these folks vacationing or just getting the old Bush tour? THIS IS A WAR ZONE!
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Best_man23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #21
62. I guess you didn't get the memo from Chimpy
Mission Accomplished on May 1.

<sarcasm off>
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
22. Unwinnable...
What were we supposed to be winning?

Great Tariq Ali segment on "Booknotes" yesterday, discussing the Iraqi perspective. Highly recommended if it is repeated.
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. I saw that!!!!! the man is eloquent and spelled it out!!
He should be on every channel...this is an un winnable situation...You cant wage a war on billions of people , you only create billions of moderate muslims who become radicals because they are angry...
What a great speech that man made yesterday..I wish I could see it again.........
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. Yes
I watched the entire thing--excellent
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belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. Thank you.
Edited on Mon Oct-27-03 12:20 PM by belle
Seriously. How are you supposed to attain your objective when the objective was never clear in the first place? Okay, "get rid of Hussein." Super! Then what? Nobody in the administration knew then, and they still don't know. But *we* knew: what we're seeing right now, that's what comes next. Chaos and misery and hundreds, then thousands of pointless deaths, that's what happens. What, you say, they should have known? Seen the parallels? Tet Offensive? It went right down the memory hole, same as everything these people don't want to know about.

And the lesson here, boys and girls, is the danger of living in a "let's pretend" universe, no matter how much money and influence you have, no matter how able you are *at first* to seemingly bend the world to your whims. W's eventual fate, along with that of his accomplices in fantasy, is not in question. The real question is: can *we*, collectively, learn this? Because frankly, even taking into account the vast array of dirty tricks these scumbags pulled to get themselves into power, the truth is, they still wouldn't *be* in power if a significant proportion of our (American) population weren't just as eager to forger reality as they were. They lulled us to sleep *because we wanted to go to sleep.*

Assuming we ever, ever dig our way out of this our current hole, how long until the next time we decide to engage in this kind of collective wishful thinking? Five years? Ten? Twenty? Two?
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #22
38. Thats what I was wondering......
Is any war winnable, when you consider the deaths, destruction, chaos, unecessary harm to the planet?

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HootieMcBoob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
25. Great as always Mr. Pitt!
Recently W has been sounding more and more like the Iraqi Information Minister. Has anybody else seen a similar disconnect with the reality that's staring him in the face?
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
26. They appear to be "bringing it on".
n/t
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #26
75. bush* rhetoric today certainly sounded like more nasty 'bring it
on" regurgitation....bush* dared them, again...

this is going to definitely get worse....

EVERYBODY at the DC anti-war protests was talking about the possibility that this could happen...


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dreissig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
28. Eviscerated Perspectives
This metaphor doesn't work. Perspective has to do with vision, and evisceration has to do with disembowelment.

I don't think the Tet thing works either, because at the time Tet was considered a great victory for the Viet Cong. Information discovered after the war showed that the offensive was very costly to the VC, and it is argued that they could not have survived much longer. I don't believe that. That's what we were told all along: the Viet Cong never had any chance of winning.

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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. From what I recall....
The "VC" suffered heavily during the Tet offensive but the political price paid by the Johnson Administration was one of perception. It showed American forces being attacked across the country. There were not "heavy" casualties on the American side.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
29. This deserves a kick
Just brilliant honey. I think you're dead on that these attacks are all about the reaction of the American public. I just hope the sleeping giant of public opinion bestirs itself soon.
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jafap Donating Member (654 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
31. I feel sorry for the grass
Two or three evil elephants are fighting - Bush, Saddam, and Osama, and it is the grass that is getting trampled.
It is impossible, then, to defeat the tyrants and the terrorists? Or is it just that we are trying to defeat them with greater tyrrany and more terror?
Not that Bush had the right goal, but if you make a WWII analogy and remove Hitler (Saddam) from power and replace him with Adenauer and present day Deutschland. Wouldn't the Iraqi people be better off?
Instead it seems like Hitler is in hiding and the Nazis are waging a guerilla war.
I cannot be happy about this war being "unwinnable" although I have been quoting Ms. Rankin since before it began ("You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake") I cannot imagine good alternatives if we leave right now. What will happen - Saddam reappears triumphant and malevolent? Or a long bloody civil war to determine which fanatical warlord will get to oppress the people of Iraq and control its oil wealth? Write a happy ending to this story.
Perhaps if Tikrit is treated the same was Dresden and Hiroshima were then Saddam will die in his bunker, but it is pretty hard to do that and say it is for the good of the Iraqis. Still, aren't the Germans and Japanese who survived better off with Hitler and Hirohito gone?
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Kinkistyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #31
87. There is a reason we went after Hitler and Hirohito
They were invading surrounding countries.
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
34. How many must we lose ?
How many is enough ?

How much is too much ?
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #34
77. when will the draft 'big sucking sound' start...(draft has already
been started...none of OUR soldiers can leave right now...so that's already a draft)...but with the perpetual war and bloody explosions, the actual regular draft will certainly be speeded up....
-------------------------------------

rummy, in his DOD briefing, January 07, 2003, refering to the Vietnam draft....(IMO, it'll be exactly the same approach)

"The disadvantages to the individuals so brought in are notable. If you think back to when we had the draft, people were brought in; they were paid some fraction of what they could make in the civilian manpower market because they were without choices. Big categories were exempted -- people that were in college, people that were teaching, people that were married. It varied from time to time, but there were all kinds of exemptions. And what was left was sucked into the intake, trained for a period of months, and then went out, adding no value, no advantage, really, to the United States armed services over any sustained period of time, because the churning that took place, it took enormous amount of effort in terms of training, and then they were gone."
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
35. Check your timeline
Edited on Mon Oct-27-03 12:35 PM by Eloriel
I could be wrong, but I think you've got things a little out of whack here:

Since George W. Bush strutted across an aircraft carrier in the garb of a combat pilot on May 1st, after he said, “Bring ‘em on,

Or maybe you don't mean it as I read it.

In any case, it seems to me that the aircraft carrier stunt was in May, and the "bring 'em on" comment was considerably after that -- June, July? Your treatment conflates the two as if they were nearly simultaneous or at least much closer in time.

It's a very good essay, and BOY! does it drive home the Vietnam parallels. That unwinnable war.

There was a thread some time ago to the effect that guerilla wars ARE unwinnable. So here we are again, dammit.

Here's a column that hit me in the gut when I first read it:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2003/09/02/facing_the_truth_about_iraq/

Facing the truth about Iraq
By James Carroll, 9/2/2003

THE WAR IS LOST. By most measures of what the Bush administration forecast for its adventure in Iraq, it is already a failure.

snip

But those who would rush belligerent reinforcements to Iraq are making the age-old mistake.

When brutal force generates resistance, the first impulse is to increase force levels. But, as the history of conflicts like this shows, that will result only in increased resistance. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld has rejected the option of more troops for now, but, in the name of force-protection, the pressures for escalation will build as US casualties mount. The present heartbreak of one or two GI deaths a day will seem benign when suicide bombers, mortar shells, or even heavier missile fire find their ways into barracks and mess halls.

Either reinforcements will be sent to the occupation, or present forces will loosen the restraints with which they reply to provocation. Both responses will generate more bloodshed and only postpone the day when the United States must face the truth of its situation.

--more--

Eloriel


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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Yeah, I had to read that line twice to figure it out, too
I knew what he meant but was a bit confused for a moment
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. I fixed it. Thanks, Eloriel.
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
36. excellent work as usual, Will
Man, you put me to shame as a writer.

That poem is perfect.
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birdman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
39. The Iraqis will never elect and do not want
a pro-West, pro-Israel government. So the US can either let the Iraqis have what they want and leave or they can spend 10 years and gazillions of dollars and lose thousands of lives trying to impose such a government by force.

It seems quite obvious to me that we should leave and more importantly investigate the people who brought this debacle about.
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
40. More troops have dies in Iraq in 9 moinths than 8 years of Vietnam
That's right. We have lost more troops in Iraq in the last 9 months, then were killed in the first eight years of the Vietnam conflict. And things have just started getting ugly.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/worldbiz/archives/2003/10/27/2003073607
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. That link does not back up that assertion
Help?
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. Sorry, wrong link
Sorry about about that Will. Here's the correct link:

http://www.archives.gov/research_room/research_topics/vietnam_war_casualty_lists/statistics.html#year

For "coalition" body count:

http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx

--

Total official body count for "coalition forces" to date: 409

Total official body count for the first 8 years of Vietnam: 401
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. It's actually the first 9 years of nam...
...1956 thru 1964. Count off, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63 & 64.
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. dies? moinths? At least I spelled "troops" correctly.
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
43. While I agree that it's unwinnable it's nothing compared to Tet.
At the worst it's apples to oranges and at best a very tiny apple to a big assed genetically modified apple.

Other than that great essay:-)
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
45. Unwinnable war is shrub's economic stimulus plan.
Bottom line.
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_Wayne_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
48. kick
.
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
50. Wierd image
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?


Lion body - England
Head of a man - puppet Bush or Blair
Indignant desert birds - Iraqi people
Slouches towards Bethlehem - PNAC's prize?

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kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
51. similarities to Tet are tenuous, at best & is a really long stretch
i appreciate the sentiment, but its wrong to compare things that have little comparable features, especially if these few comparable features are used to support a pet thesis. the busheviks did this with wmd and iraq. we shouldn't do likewise.

the americans had 500,000 troops in viet nam at the time of the tet offensive. an offensive that reached its tentacles throughout the vietnanese cities and countryside and which itself was sustained by tens of thousands of viet cong and NVA regulars. in iraq, the US faces no army in the field. its all shoot and run tactics they face.

as gen giap stated, winning or losing the campaign on the ground was not the point in and of itself, but it showed the US military, and the US public in particular, that we were in for a long haul in which cronkite stated at best we could only achieve "a draw."

the sporadic iraqi attacks these past few days are the result of nothing like the man power, fire power, or even compromised enemy security systems that the vietnamese had at tet.

this is nothing like tet. it is small scale and not a bono fide indication massive intelligence failure on the part of the US or indications that there is a massive uprising.

these current attacks and others are small-scale military operations and are not co-ordinations of thousands of iraqi irregular troops across hundreds of miles and villages nor should these incidents be seen as up to the level of the revelations of the failure of the US policies like those found at tet.

the US policies in iraq are failures in and of themselves, they don't need any attacks to prove it further.

this isn't even apples and oranges here, its apples and walrusus.

wishful thinking makes strange bedfellows with absurdities.

i am all for the US getting out of iraq, but the current situation where at latest count there are about 3 dozen "incidents" a day that result in weapons exchanges is not going to have the pyschological affect that tet had, where entire US military bases and south vietnamese cities were over-run. when you see a mesopotamian khe sahn siege, then maybe.........christ, in '68 there in saigon, VC sappers crawled up thru the sewers into the US embassey and were shot on the grounds by US marines.

that is not happening in iraq.

yet....but if 250 marines die in a single battle or a bombing like they did 20 years ago in beirut, things might change rather quickly, but it will take a massive loss of american lives to rouse the american public to demand drastic changes.

the busheviks are not dumb. they know that barring a massive loss of american lives in a short period of time, the majority of the american public will continue to support their policies in iraq.

the only hope the anti-american iraqi forces have is to plan for their own long-term Intifada and one that will make what the israelis face in west bank look like a picnic.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. Disagree
Certainly, the scope and scale are different. But the fact that both were unexpected coordinated attacks meant to gain a political goal makes them of a piece.
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kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. the "scope and scale" of atoms and planets are also different.
as such, one does not use newtonian physics equations to cipher quantum maechanics.

so one is left with admitting that 2 out of 3 factors are not alike, viz., scope and scale are different, but only 1 out of 3, the element of surprise is the same and that is the singular factor as to why recent attacks in iraq are like those in viet nam in february 1968 during tet?

and i dont believe that the mechanisms and narrative used to understand the importance to the viet nam war of the tet offensive are applicable here.

i can understand how one wishes to use analogy to arrive at a better understanding of these events, but the correlation is strained beyond what i consider informed reasoning.

in fact, it is as i stated before, wishful thinking.
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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #56
64. I was in Long Binh about 50 miles from Saigon during Tet 1968
Edited on Mon Oct-27-03 07:54 PM by Mountainman
The things that stick in my mind about it were the utter shock and dismay on the faces of my fellow soldiers as we watched Marines fighting on the roof of the US embassy building in Saigon. We were watching the news on TV and could not believe what we were seeing. Then on a trip to Saigon a few days later I was talking to a Vietnamese woman who lost 2 sons that week and she was crying and saying that only Americans should fight and die in the war because we had so much material wealth and they had so little.

And then on a trip to Bein Hoa the next day. The town was blown to hell! We would go there for fun on weekends but now all our favorite places were gone.

I remember the shock of knowing that we were somehow very vulnerable and could easily be killed in our own backyards! Yes we began to believe that we could lose the war.

The building I worked in as a radar repairman was hit by rockets. We had to defend Bein Hoa AFB which was overrun one night by VC. We were "behind the lines" but could no longer expect to feel protected by the 25th Infantry.

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LearnedHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #51
63. kodi, please consider what Will Pitt said in broader terms
On the absolute, hair-splitting level, Iraq is nothing like the Tet Offensive. We can gin up different numbers all day long. However, we (our troops) are STUCK in Iraq because of the unilateral decision of a US pResident, our troops are dying in guerilla attacks...the TENOR of what's happening in Iraq now is very reminiscent of the TENOR of what happened in Viet Nam.

All of us who post to DU could find ways in which *this thing* differs from *that thing*. But I don't think that was the point.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
52. Accurate Nam analogy, now insurgents are hip to news cycle placement!!
I think the attackers are savvy to the news cycle that BushCo has been using of 'good news on Monday, bad news on Friday.'

There may be a deadly serious reason for Monday Morning Blues in Baghdad for our military people now.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
54. "Underestimating a guerilla enemy
Edited on Mon Oct-27-03 04:25 PM by rocknation
that is fighting on its own ground is deadly policy."

especially when they're not white.

Viet Nam was supposed to be a cakewalk not only because the enemy were undersized rice paddy dwellers armed with not much more than sharpened sticks, but because they couldn't possibly overcome the logistical and strategic might of the smartest army in the world. Substitute a sand dune for the rice paddy, camel turds for the sharpened sticks, and it's deja vu all over again!


rocknation

P.S. Uh, Will, shouldn't that be "MIS-underestimating"?



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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
55. Only comparison I see is the humilation part
a sorta 'propaganda of the deed' thing.

The spectacular success of Tet was the attack on the US embassy.

Essentially in the old thinking of revolutionary action, symbolic targets are hit to show the people who weak and useless the 'enemy' is...in that Tet was similar.
To embarass the US and say, 'if the US can't defend even it's own, how can it possibly defend YOU'

The hotel bombings were exactly like that...Wolfie nearly got nailed and then they had a press conference saying everything was under control and then hours later...again they hit the hotel and then the RC and at that time the attack was in conjunction with three bombings at three different police stations...(so far today...haven't checked lately in the last 5 minutes)
Their level of sophistication and contempt is growing and the shock value to not only the 'enemy' but to the Iraqi people is immeasureable.

Just a thought
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frank frankly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
58. great analysis
freedom is slavery, indeed
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LearnedHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
59. Love that Yeats poem, Will Pitt
Thanks for posting part of it here. Strange how often I feel the despair our nation must have felt at the horror that was WWI. Everything is new; all the rules have changed; we don't know anymore who or what we are fighting against -- except, maybe, our own government and our own leaders.

Strange and scary. Our "leaders" may even end up using poison gas on us here in our own country and targeting our civilian populations, for all the trust I can put in them to "govern" our nation.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
60. I make it a policy
Always to read and kick Will Pitt.

Great stuff here.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
61. Why would Bushco want to win a war...
....when they can make so much more money from extended chaos?
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
66. * needs to keep his record string of failures intact
I swear their must be such a thing as mass insanity, everyday this fool stays in office just convinces me of it ever more

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17707-2003Oct25.html

Search in Iraq Fails to Find Nuclear Threat
No Evidence Uncovered Of Reconstituted Program
By Barton Gellman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, October 26, 2003; Page A01


In their march to Baghdad on April 8, U.S. Marines charged past a row of eucalyptus trees that lined the boneyard of Iraq's thwarted nuclear dream. Sixty acres of warehouses behind the tree line, held under United Nations seal at Ash Shaykhili, stored machine tools, consoles and instruments from the nuclear weapons program cut short by the 1991 Persian Gulf War.

Thirty miles to the north and west, Army troops were rolling through the precincts of the Nasr munitions plant. Inside, stacked in oblong wooden crates, were thousands of high-strength aluminum tubes.

That equipment, and Iraq's effort to buy more of it overseas, were central to the Bush administration's charge that President Saddam Hussein had resumed long-dormant efforts to build a nuclear weapon. The lead combat units had more urgent priorities that day, but they were not alone in passing the stockpiles by. Participants in the subsequent hunt for illegal arms said months elapsed without a visit to Nasr and many other sites of activity that President Bush had called "a grave and gathering danger."

According to records made available to The Washington Post and interviews with arms investigators from the United States, Britain and Australia, it did not require a comprehensive survey to find the central assertions of the Bush administration's prewar nuclear case to be insubstantial or untrue. Although Hussein did not relinquish his nuclear ambitions or technical records, investigators said, it is now clear he had no active program to build a weapon, produce its key materials or obtain the technology he needed for either.
(snip)


http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16747
Path of Lies: 9/11 to Iraq

By Lakshmi Chaudhry and Christopher Scheer, AlterNet
September 9, 2003

In the aftermath, even many liberals discovered their inner hawks, beating their chests in rage and seeking hot, bloody revenge against the murderers. Shocked out of their post-Cold War illusion of omnipotence, many Americans sought reassurance of their security, revenge on a hostile, invisible enemy, and affirmation of their own goodness. The White House offered them the perfect panacea to all their needs – the endless war of terror, the new crusade that would wreak havoc on America's enemies.


The Iraq war, however, was no gimme. To steer the balky U.S. citizenry and ship of state toward war with a country 6,000 miles away that most Americans saw as little more than a sad, battered joke would require a systematic campaign of carefully chosen lies.


To sell a war to the American people, presidents need at least two basic ingredients: self-defense and moral duty. In terrorism, the Bush administration found the perfect enemy – shadowy, insubstantial, and infinitely malleable to interpretation. In his 2002 State of the Union speech, flushed with the resounding victory in Afghanistan, Bush proclaimed: "Thousands of dangerous killers, schooled in the methods of murder, often supported by outlaw regimes, are now spread throughout the world like ticking time bombs, set to go off without warning. ... So long as training camps operate, so long as nations harbor terrorists, freedom is at risk and America and our allies must not, and will not, allow it."


Forget the Taliban. It was now time for a full-blown "axis of evil" – a wish-list of targets who could be picked off one by one in this unending war.
(snip)

Turn on the History channel. We didn't have to A Bomb Japan
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=337703
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gristy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
67. Thanks for the article, Will.
And for the thoughtful feedback from many DUers. I learned a great deal in the last 1/2 hour.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. You're welcome. Link for this essay:
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Davis_X_Machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
68. Bush seems never to have seen 'Blazing Saddles':
Bart: Well, can't you see that's the last act of a desperate man?

Howard Johnson: We don't care if it's the first act of Henry V, we're leaving.
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #68
81. 'Blazing Saddles" was the funniest movie I ever saw...really laughed
my ass off the whole entire time....
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
70. I'm sending this over to my husband in Iraq..is that OK, Will?
He'll enjoy this and he will want to share it.

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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. You saw the link? Here:
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
71. ZombyKick
This effort deserves a better reply, but I really have nothing to augment. :thumbsup: brother.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. Aaaahhhhhhhhh....
That's the stuff...

:)
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. it kicks like fine scotch
And hey, you quoted Yeats, which is worth its weight in gold. :-)
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DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
78. I've posted Yeat's "The Second Coming" a number of times since 9/11
Edited on Mon Oct-27-03 09:06 PM by DemoTex
The entire poem by Wm. Butler Yeats:

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?


Also Will, a slight correction to your history of Tet '68. You mention the Viet Cong and Giap. Giap was commander of PAVN (Peoples' Army of Vietnam, or NVA). Tet was a joint effort of NVA and VC forces. It is not exactly known who was commanding VC forces at the time.

Mac

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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
79. I've always thought that this war would be *'s political Waterloo.
The tragedy is how many have and will have to die as a result of such insanity and stupidity.
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sistersofmercy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
80. I am speechless, great piece Will!
It's almost time for Larry King live he has Michael Shiavo on tonight, another subject I am passionate about. I do not understand why ppl don't get the case, it's like reliving the Papa Bush administration but worse really but same issue nevertheless. I heard a quote the other day that made me laugh at first and then want to cry, "George W. Bush* is like Reagan only on steriods."
After all of this perhaps we can exile the Bush Family to, hmmmm, gee I can not think of a place on earth that would want them.
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
82. I wish I knew someone from the NY Times
I'd definately twist an arm to get you to be a columnist.

You rock.

:)
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
83. Just a little
:kick:

Eloriel
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-27-03 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
84. Very Nice Will...
:kick:
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 05:02 AM
Response to Original message
85. I hate to be kicking just for kicking, so I thought to put this in there
http://www.mayanmajix.com/art_tf.html
http://www.mayanmajix.com/art324.html

US Soldiers to America: Bring Us Home Now

Monday, 13 October 2003, 10:29 am
Article: Jay Shaft

US Soldiers to America: ''Bring us home now; we’re dying for oil and corporate greed!''

Part 1 in a 5 part series
Interviews by Jay Shaft
Coalition For Free Thought In Media
12th October 2003

I had the unique opportunity to interview five US military servicemen who just got back from Iraq, or in the case of two men, corresponded with their wives so that I could ask questions of these soldiers by mail. When the two I corresponded with came back just last week, I was able to complete the interviews I started several months ago with some new details on how the war is actually going.

I was shocked and angered when I found out how many of the service men hate being in Iraq and want nothing to do with rebuilding and policing the devastated nation. From the conversations I had, many soldiers never wanted to go over to Iraq and fight, and the ones who had were now convinced of the awful crime that had been committed against Iraq and our own troops. I was told very few soldiers now believe in staying in Iraq, or want to stay in the country and serve any more days.

The following interview was with an enlisted man, but someone very high up in the enlisted ranks, with over 20 years of military service. I have promised not to reveal his identity for reasons that he has a family and has been told not to speak to journalists. He told me the Army had put a gag order on him while he was home, and told him they would give him twenty years in prison if he spoke out in any manner against the US or the government
(snip)
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 05:11 AM
Response to Original message
86. I hate to be kicking just for kicking, so I thought to put this in there
Soldiers can't speak up like this, they can be court martialed and thrown in the brig (or maybe worse, asigned patrol or point duty)

http://www.mayanmajix.com/art_tf.html
http://www.mayanmajix.com/art324.html

US Soldiers to America: Bring Us Home Now

Monday, 13 October 2003, 10:29 am
Article: Jay Shaft

US Soldiers to America: ''Bring us home now; we’re dying for oil and corporate greed!''

Part 1 in a 5 part series
Interviews by Jay Shaft
Coalition For Free Thought In Media
12th October 2003

I had the unique opportunity to interview five US military servicemen who just got back from Iraq, or in the case of two men, corresponded with their wives so that I could ask questions of these soldiers by mail. When the two I corresponded with came back just last week, I was able to complete the interviews I started several months ago with some new details on how the war is actually going.

I was shocked and angered when I found out how many of the service men hate being in Iraq and want nothing to do with rebuilding and policing the devastated nation. From the conversations I had, many soldiers never wanted to go over to Iraq and fight, and the ones who had were now convinced of the awful crime that had been committed against Iraq and our own troops. I was told very few soldiers now believe in staying in Iraq, or want to stay in the country and serve any more days.

The following interview was with an enlisted man, but someone very high up in the enlisted ranks, with over 20 years of military service. I have promised not to reveal his identity for reasons that he has a family and has been told not to speak to journalists. He told me the Army had put a gag order on him while he was home, and told him they would give him twenty years in prison if he spoke out in any manner against the US or the government
(snip)
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dudeness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 05:51 AM
Response to Original message
88. may I add Lawrence to Yeats
Making war or rebellion is always messy,
like eating soup from a knife

T E Lawrence.
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sistersofmercy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
89. Morning kick.
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