Do you believe in spanking children?

I figure there are two levels to spankings. One is the old-fashioned bend you over the knee, spank with a belt or a hand type spanking. The other would be a single swat on the butt or spanking a hand for bad behavior.

ON EDIT:
Are you a parent? If so how do you handle discipline?

the most effective method to change a problem behavior is to positively reinforce a behavior that is mutually exclusing with the behavior you wish to extinguish.

/graduting in 2 weeks with a psych minor

edit: i meant positive punishment, not negative punishment (positive as in adding something)

Do you have kids?

a few years.

are you insinuating that once I have kids I won't be able to help but beat them?

I'm saying that it is really hard to know what you are going to do until you are faced with it.

I had a bunch of ideas about what kind of parent I would be before I became one. Some of those ideals stuck around. Many of them didn't.

Spankings are not beatings. No child should ever be beat. But sometimes a good smack on the hand will gain enough of the child's attention to make them listen to what you are saying. It is a focus point.

though I do agree that one can't predict what the future will bring

I learned this stuff from a very good professor of developmental psychology who does parenting classes and is into reasearch on effective behavior modification. I learned that not only are spankings among the least effective methods, but they are also potentially damaging.

I was spanked as a kid.

And I have NEVER spanked my kids, nor will I ever.

There is absolutely no reason to hit a kid. There are much more effective ways to discipline children.

In my experience, the kids I knew growing up who were spanked had parents who had serious issues that they were taking out on their kids. And many of those kids ended up themselves having serious issues.

It's much harder to discipline kids without violence, it's much more work.

And unfortunately it's all too easy to hit the kids rather than use other more effective forms of discipline.

But spanking kids seems the coward's way out. I find it extremely difficult to have any respect for parents who hit their kids.

There is book psych and practical psych.
It's like that with any social science.
There is book pol sci and real pol sci.
Often times the book version and the practical version have little in common.

parents vent their own frustration. its in poor taste and ineffective.

"spanking is just a way parents vent their own frustration"

If it were, I'd be in jail. :(

I try really hard to avoid it at all costs, but there are occasions where nothing else gets the message across. A swat on the backside usually indicates (to my kids, anyway) that it's time to pay attention.

to smack a child

what i said is that its venting frustration

on edit: that is exactly what you said too...you are at the end of your tether (frustrated) and you smack your kid.

was that if I vented all the frustration my kids cause me, it WOULD be jailable. :o

Sorry, I probably worded it wrong. ;)

and maybe you can walk the fine line...in my opinion most parents get frustrated way too easily...and should not have children if you dont get how much patience they require.

just my opinion.

Parents who spank have their own issues that they are taking out on powerless kids who can't fight back.

OK - disclaimer over. I read somewhere that the first swat gets the kid's attention, any subsequent swats are manifestations of your own anger and/or frustration.

Like I said, I'm not a parent, but that made sense to me. For the record, my mom only hit me once per violation, and my dad never hit (threatened me a few times, but never hit me).

Spelling edit.

before I had kids though? ;)

when you have resorted to violence, the message is that if you cannot get your way, its OK to beat the other guy

i mean my mom smacked me all the time...and shes a wonderful person..i just think she was too young to deal with 2 kids...

it took a lot of self reflection and some mistakes along the way to eventually break the cycle

with an authoritarian dad.

(you know we bengalis are very staunch in our beliefs that upperclass men do not ever raise their hands against their women) but my mom did (and in all honesty not to a degree that is abusive but she was just useless at getting anyone to listen to her)

... that we carry this abuse for the rest of our lives. F*ck tradition, and using authoritarian as a euphemism for abuse. No offense, but I used that word for years myself.

but it doesn't mean that the way in which we treat the memories and the way in which we use the experience in our lives cannot change.

Personally, my experience of having been abused led me to a place where I believe I have an incredible insight into parenting my two boys.

I guess I have forgiven but not forgotten

That's what would earn my daughter a spanking. I have been a single parent since she was 1. She's now 13. Besides being a struggling mom financially, my daughter is VERY willful. Her favorite phrase as a toddler was "I want to if I want to." When she was 3 she declared, "F*ck Easter." Ack! It was hellish.

But, she's a terrific kid, and extremely bright. I didn't resort to full-on beatings, although Lord knows I wanted to. I remember putting her in her bedroom and asking her play alone for half an hour, then locking myself in the bedroom and crying from the sheer effort it took to keep my calm. It was quite difficult.

Call me a sadist, but she got a pop on the behind for life-threating actions. Like, she used to run out in the street because she thought it was funny. Usually, a talking-to or short time out worked. But I'm a believer in light corporal punishment, administered by a parent.

I personally have contact with some other children who never receive any kind of spanking. They could certainly use one. :P

RV

One quick swat on the fanny for life-threatening actions like running in the street or trying to pull something off the stove. Then, once he had their full attention, a more appropriate punishment was developed ("You can't go over to your friend's house for the rest of the week because I can't trust you not to run in the street"), but first you have to get their attention and make sure they know this is a hard limit. You do not cross this line.

Boundaries are a GOOD thing.

... as a non-parent, but as an adult with a childhood history of a hell of a lot of spanking (and worse), it is not the answer. I feel that the best way to treat a child is to treat them as an adult. Would you hit another adult if they were acting in a way that was inappropriate? No. You would try to reason with them. And if they did not respond to your reasoning, you would walk away. If a child does something for which they should be disciplined, I am all for bodily picking the child up and putting them in their room to cool down. Hitting them does nothing but teach them that physical punishment is a necessary thing. I don't think it is.

I'm not talking about a belt! I'm talking about giving a child the foundation to understand actions that are wrong have consequesces we don't like. Small children do not understand reasoning.

Beyond the age of 5 or 6 it works better to deprive people of something they want, and spanking no longer serves any purpose.

positive punishment is one of the least effective methods of behavior modifiction in small children.

you obviously do not have children, or if you do you don't know them.

Hitting small children is really the sickest kind of violence. There are ways to deal with small children who are pre-rational besides hitting them. And small children do indeed understand reasoning from an earlier age than you would think.

39 and 36 years old now. They ahave never been in any trouble, both are very successful and have families of their own.

I think your philosophy is the reason students have NO respect for their teachers, the law, or their parents for that matter.

When they get into the business world, they won't have any respect for their employer either.

People, no matter how young or old need authority figures in their lives, and they need to have respect for that authority.

so the message is that if you cannot reason with someone, beat 'em

I had two parents that spanked me (not often, but enough to know that I had done something stupid), and I'm glad I got a little discipline.

I think that the reasons why many children are such brats nowadays is because of the lackadaisical "punishment" parents give them. I have no patience with parents who try to "reason" with a willful two or three year old.

Sorry, but I think all the psycho-babble stuff is crap. Many of you will be grateful I don't have kids, and don't plan on having any.

is because it is likely their parents aren't disciplining them correctly, NOT because they aren't spanking them. Some of the "brattiest" kids I've known were spanked frequently.

besides hitting. A lot of people disagree on spanking, but to insist that it is necessary is going over the top.

Some respond well to it, some don't (and I'm speaking as a parent).

If it works then do it. Otherwise, find something else. There's no one-size-fits-all when it comes to child discipline.

You can't generalize with kids. They are nothing if not individuals.

when the child needs immediate correction (ex. running into the street, running with scissors or knife, trying to pull a pot off the stove). Only in circumstances where the outcome of a behavior would be far worse than the brief pain and scare of spanking. Afterwords you must talk to the child and put what you did into context.

kids brains seem to be in their butts. Some days it doesn't matter how many times I tell my son no or send him to his room or try to reason with him, it takes one swat on the butt to make him pay attention.

He remembers the swat for a little while. The stern talking to, he blows off as soon as I stop talking.

You cannot reason with a toddler.
You can try and explain whys and why nots, but they don't (usually) get the whole cause and effect thing until they're 4 or 5.

When my daughter was around 2 or 3 she ran into the street, chasing a ball. We had told her many times NEVER to go even CLOSE to the street without mommy or daddy, holding a hand. We explained that the cars could not see her and would hurt her very badly. Nevertheless...

I gave her a stern lecture and told her that I was going to spank her in order to make such an impression that she would never forget again.
I turned her across my knee and gave her three sharp whacks. She was out of diapers by then, so I know it stung. It's the only spanking she ever got. I remember it like it was yesterday.

She never ran out into the street again.
She will be 33 in Septmember and doesn't remember a thing about it.
Sign me:
"Bad daddy"

consequences explained verbally so in certain situations when a childs life could be in danger I felt it was necessary that my smack on the butt become the consequence. It was a consequence my son could understand where he wouldn't understand me trying to explain the consequences of running into the street.

He's 27 today and appears to be a well adjusted, happy young man.

http://www.globeinvestor.com/servlet/ArticleNews/story/PRNEWS/20030728/2003_07_28_08_0446_976965

That advertised itself as a safe alternative to spankings.
It looks like their marketing team decided on an image makeover.
(adults only)
http://www.b-stik.com

He would take me into the bathroom and tell me to yell when he slaped his forarm with his hand.

My mom never knew the difference.

My dad rocks!

and all it did was make me meaner.

My mother never laid a hand on me, though. She would punish me by taking my bike away for two weeks and I would beg her to just spank me. I was afraid of my father but I respected my mother.

generally reinforces the tendency of resorting to violent responses to unpleasant situations.

I've one child. He's 12. I slapped him gently once on the thigh when he hit a female playmate when he was around 2-3 years old. I felt horrible about it. It was an instantaneous reflex, which I discussed with him at length later. I've always been able to reason with him and generally goof on him when he's out of line.

His teachers only have glowing reports regarding his behaviour and he has great friends.

As for that one incident, after it occurred I started to reinforce the mantra of, "never hurt a living thing."

So it was instructive for both of us.

I feel I am extremely lucky.

I have two teens and I only swatted one of them once. She reached for a cookie at three and without thinking I swatted her hand. Surprised me more than her.

One of my kids was/is extremely independent and willful. She ran into the street as a toddler. I grabbed her before she was hit and promptly burst into hears while hugging her. I then explained all the dangers and spent time walking her across the street safely. Over and over again. I made her hold my hand around the street for a few weeks explaining I had to keep her safe and she ran into the street. Holding my hand was punishment for her but it was also a way for her to learn. Slowly, I let her earn the right to not hold my hand on the sidewalk by following the rules. It worked far better than a swat on the butt.

my dad 'spanked' me one time with his belt, after that i did my best to not piss him off any more. a no-brainer for me. why are these children so obstinate they don't respond in a like manner? could it be all the bullshit that has been handed to them since born? could it be parents that are so caught up in the pursuit of material ecstacy they rely on someone else to raise their offspring? could it be well meaning parents unable to discipline their children consistently for fear they won't love them? a lot of possible reasons for spanking, but i blame the parents for all of it.

It seems that what you are saying is that it taught you not to piss your dad off. True, that is a no-brainer, especially when a belt is the instrument of punishment. You learn that getting "spanked" by your parent is to be avoided, and that someone who loves and protects you is free to hurt you. What about learning to not do the offending behavior? What about learning that doing the offending behavior gets you removed from the things you like doing or having?

Here is what I learned from being hit by parents: I hated them. I hated them during the act and for a long time afterwords. I would have to stew, plus act loving and grateful, in a big pot of humiliation and anger and betrayal and shocked disbelief. I fantasized their deaths, then felt guilt for hating someone who was hitting me. I was four or five and remember clearly feeling and thinking this way.

If memory serves, and it does, hitting does not make a child love you more. Fear you, yes. Fake it, yes. You can brew a really good little sneak, because the only consequence of doing dangerous things is getting caught by parents and avoiding punishment.

On edit: does not make a child love you. does not does not make a child love you.

and not a case of the ongoing child abuse that you have endured. i am sorry that my "don't piss 'em off" remark has evoked such sad memories for you. i have always loved and admired my parents, who were always by my side as i grew up.the seven in our family were quite poor,but we always stuck together(to this day, for those of us still living)and had many good times and lots of laughs. i can't imagine what it is like to hate a family member. i'm sorry you only responded to a small part of my post. i do think the main problem with children is parents who are too busy to do a proper job of child-rearing. it is a grave and important time of life for a child, and is too often left to a stranger in a day care center. i am sixty years old and have scads of nieces, nephews, grandnieces and nephews-none of them have gone to daycare,and they probably have never been spanked. btw, i deserved the spanking and what i learned from it is that if i go around breaking the glass in my front door in anger i'll pay the price.

It depends on the child. I don't believe a beating is EVER in order, but some children respond differently to different types of punishment. I was much too stubborn to be reasoned with as a child, so I'd get an ass-smack every now and then. I'm the furthest thing from a violent person. That being said, some children should probably NEVER be hit, especially if there are non-violent ways to mend their bad behavior.

I see posts talking about psychology books, and how X "never works" and Y "is the way to go." This is ridiculous and silly. Human beings are much too different from each other for there to exist a cookie cutter solution to child discipline. Besides, some of the most fucked-up children I knew growing up had psychologists as parents (a cliche, but true). Not sure I want them telling me how to raise my own.

I'm childless, by the way.

and now as an adult if i am very upset with my spouse and in a frustrating situation where i know shes wrong and should be punished i am often tempted to slap her.

its something i would never ever do. but its how i react to a frustrating situation. and i do not believe i was born with this instinct. its something i learnt that people do in frustrating situations...

... and I will add that I have the same instincts borne of the same experience, yet could never hurt a fly. It's an odd dichotomy.

i will never slap her but i cannot say that it isnt my gut instinct.

Even looking for the "Biblical" perspective as "spare the rod, spoil the child", the analogy was used regarding sheep and shepherds. The shepherds didn't use the rod to hit or inflict pain at all, but to guide. Another example of stuff from the Bible that has been misused for essentially evil.

Now, do I believe in spanking- NO! I think generally it's the parent being out of control, not judicious use of punishment. I have spanked on rare occasions (like a two year old running out into the street), but it's pretty rare and I regret when I have. My husband has more than me and at times, it has been a major source of conflict. I have strong personal feelings about this because my brother was the victim of shaken baby syndrome (didn't have a name then and legally it couldn't be proved as the only proof were my memories from a not yet 3 year old mind) by a babysitter when he was a year old. He started seizuring after this and it became very severe and caused severe and life-long brain damage.

That being said, a minor swat on the tush probably need not cause as much anguish as I have had when I have done it, but I can't honestly say if it's ever justified. Probably emotional and verbal abuse is worse than that. Anyway, because it can be taken way too far, it's best to err on the side of caution and learn more effective ways of discipline. A good book is "The Discipline Book" by Dr. William Sears. He gives it from a perspective of forming a close enough attachment and relationship with your child that makes it easier. I, personally, think it can. That being said, I often have to be rather like a drill Sargent, with my boys in particular, to get them to behave, but beating them is most certainly not necessary. They know by the tone of mom's voice alone that I MEAN BUSINESS!!!

:hi:

one of us would persist in doing something dangerous after repeated warnings.

You know how fast little kids can get away from you and take off at what seems like 50 miles an hour?

I've seen parents repeatedly try to catch small children who are determined to run into the street, and clearly, the children are viewing it as a game: race Mom or Dad to the street. Note how they laugh gleefully as the parent picks them up.

One sharp slap convinces the kid that you're serious when you say, "Don't run into the street," or "Don't climb around on that pile of scrap lumber," or "Don't go onto the dock without a lifejacket."

My usual philosophy is to let kids learn from the natural consequences of what they do, but sometimes the consequences of ignoring repeated parental warnings can be fatal, and that's when a light spanking can work wonders with a pre-logical child.

VERY sporadically. When Gabriela acts up and I get really P.O.d, I grab her, sit her on her "thinking chair" and shout NOW STAY THERE! Every once in a blue moon my blood boils and I swat her in the butt instead. And I feel like shit afterwards. I should be stronger, I know.

We have a 1.5 year old now, and there's no way I could do something like that. I don't think it damaged us (5 kids), and may have helped, I don't know, but for me, personally, I couldn't inflict physical harm on my son on purpose.

So far, discipline has been pretty easy, because he punishes himself. If he does something bad, we tell him not to and force him to stop (when possible - e.g. take away the cat bowl) and then he cries and is miserable until he decides that it's not worth the effort, and he's not getting his way, and then he goes about doing something else, and cheers up almost immediately.

Being a parent (so far!) has just been so freaking rewarding and so freaking much fun, I can't even express it.

:)

david

but I really don't like spanking. Of course, it could be the fact that I had to endure tons of physical abuse before I was strong enough to fight back...

:hi:

ON EDIT: Are you a parent? If so how do you handle discipline?

I never *physicalize* with my child when I am angry period. I do not touch her in any way. I do give an occassional time out and talk alot about each situation but the time out is given after ive had one myself as needed. ;)

I don't have a one stop solution to discipline. I generally handle each situation has it comes.

There is some good reading on non-punitive discipline if your interested I'll be glad to provide. Not spanking is not easy as it requires learning new skills, but I refuse to degrade MYSELF or my daughter by hitting her.

I am a parent of two. One is six months old, so discipline isn't an issue, yet. My older son is three.

I make it clear what is and is not acceptable, and that he he is 100% sure that he knows what the consequences will be every time his behavior isn't acceptable. Taking away privileges and being consistent in doing so every time, on the first offense, and follow through is key.

Children are different, and different approaches work depending on personality and temperament. I'm against spanking because it is using fear, pain, and sometimes humiliation as a deterrent. It has been shown that spanking is not an effective tool, and can sometimes be detrimental. I do not think that all spanking falls into the abuse category, but I think it makes abusive situations more likely, because spanking is usually done out of anger of the moment, and children can be VERY frustrating. Unless someone is exceptionally capable of handling their anger at all times, I think spanking is a very bad idea.

oh wait... do they have to be my children? ummm, err, uhhhh - see ya!

Abuse is not. It's important to know the difference.


My only suggestion would be to wait until you're not angry to spank them, and it better hurt you more.

:evilgrin:

Our own child has not been born yet, but I was a live-in nanny to 3 girls for 2 years. I spanked one of them once in desperation. I wish I'd handled it differently. Generally, I do not believe in spanking children. I also think that positively reinforcing good behavior works better than punishing bad behavior. (Consequences are different than punishment.)

It may be cruel, but at least it kept kids in line. What good does throwing them in their room do?

If I were a parent, I'd give my kid a smack on the ass.

Some on this thread have stated they struck their child after a dangerous stunt. They regard it as a very rare occurrence, only used in extreme cases.

You seem to think that striking a child is--just generally--a good idea. Please, don't reproduce!

I was hit a few times growing up & don't think it improved me at all.

I learned from my mistakes when I got spanked. I think kids do need discipline in their lives. Today, from what I see, I see kids run around and do stupid stuff and go unpunished.

What do you think is appropriate punishment? Throwing the kid in the room to let him/her "think" about what they did?

There are many other alternatives.

I am not a perfect parent because I dont spank, and I dont think all parents who spank are *bad* parents. I simply think I'm a better parent then I would be had I chosen to spank, and frankly I think parents who spank would also be *better* parents should they not do so.

Here are some alternatives to spanking. This is simply food for thought, and this is simply a start to finding alternatives to spanking. I am not endorsing the methods here, simply providing some info on alternatives.

http://www.nmha.org/children/discipline.pdf

http://www.familyeducation.com/topic/front/0,1156,62-25967,00.html?relinks

When I was a child, my stepfather beat for the smallest reasons and not by a paddle or hand. I was belted. Not just on my butt but my ankles and my back. If I cried I was given three extra wacks. So I am very wary of those who spank. It also probably explains why I decided not to have kids. Had anybody ever been swatted so bad when they were kids they cried and got spanked again because of it?


John

Yes. I had been accused of giving myself bloody noses for sympathy after my mom popped me in the face on several different occassions-among other things.

Unlike you, I had children, a daughter who is 5 and has NEVER been spanked by ANYONE... Thankfully.

:hug: To you, sorry for what you endured.

eom

:-)

;)

;)

now spanking adult women is a whole other story. :)

I'm talking serious, no-holds-barred, knock-down, drag-out BEATINGS. Really cruel and vicious stuff.

I plan to spank (not beat, but spank) our child when it's appropriate. My wife and I have discussed this at great length (she's got a MS in clinical psych, BTW) and she agrees with me.

We've worked it out. When a spanking is needed, the parent who thinks the child needs to be spanked will go to the other parent, report the situation, and then have the non-involved parent do the actual spanking, according to the non-involved parent's interpretation of what is called for, and outside of the sight of the other parent. That way, there's not a parental anger issue at work, and there's no cross-parent anger in the form of "you didn't spank her hard enough". Hopefully, it will not often be an issue. But if the behaviour is outrageous enough, we reserve the right to spank.

I am very, very careful about this. I wasn't "beaten" as a child, but my grandmother (who raised me) wasn't above making me go pick out a switch for a good "whompin'" every now and then.

Actually, I think I was mostly better for that if I'm being truthful.

However, I WAS abused by my stepfather from around 9/10 until I ran away at 16. These were not "spankings", but smacks to the face and being knocked down. This will NEVER happen to my children.

I have a bad temper at times, which is what I mean about being careful. I don't want to ever lose control and hurt my children. Therefore, a hands off when I'm angry policy is always in effect.

Extreme circumstances - running into the road is a biggie with me. Yes, I have spanked my children (with my hand, over clothes) for doing that before because it's so incredibly dangerous. When spanking isn't overused it's attention-getting for young children and effective IMO. If/when they do something that is dangerous or just flat out unacceptable by any stretch of the imagination (fellow parents will know what I mean), punishment has to be swift and memorable.

Now, my kids are 6 and 9 (in a few days). I haven't spanked them in a very long time. They're old enough now that I can reason with them and punish them in other ways and spanking isn't necessary. A smack on the butt for a toddler that just ran into the street is appropriate punishment IMO, however.

Er...wait...I mean spanking is BAD. Only to be used in extreme circumstances!