why have Saturn and the Japanese Automakers built plants in the South?

why not Flint or Detriot?

The South is generally so-called "right to work". Which really means non-union shops, which means very low wages and an uneducated workforce that can be taken advantage of, especially in regards to workplace safety and labour/wage laws.

what are the wages of the unionized compared to the non unionized?

Saturn is UAW. The Nissan plant in the same general area is not unionized. The wages to start at Nissan are 15/hr plus bonuses of up to 1.50 hr. The average worker is clearing 20-25 an hour after a few years of work. On the downside, they work people like dogs.

as compared to where?

... not uneducated in general.

One of the many things that unions do is educate their members regarding their legal rights as employees, etc.

I know someone who had worked for Pontiac for years and switched over to Saturn for the opportunity to relocate out of the Detroit area. They love Tennessee.

:toast:

Easier to set up a company town atmosphere elsewhere.

Edit: Uh... about post #1... we're not talking bleeping Mexico here. These are Americans you're talking about. Ease back a bit, please.

5000 employees about 5 miles south of my house. Our town is going crazy with growth, property values are up (and will go higher), lots of new restaurants and businesses, and life in general is good. For a sleepy little town of 15,000 (80% black-definite low income for most) Nissan is a godsend. Even if you don't get one of the plant jobs, the supportive services industries bring in 15-20 thousand other jobs, not to mention the service industry jobs produced.

The plant is nearly a mile in length facing the interstate south of town and I watched it grow from the day the first dozer knocked down the first tree. Its located on cotton/soybean fields and seeing it develop has been amazing.

We even had traditional Japanese dancers perform on the courthouse square while Nissan's president, Carlos Ghosn, was hoisted on the crowds shoulders and paraded through downtown to celebrate. It was fun!

Why here instead of the mid-west? Right to work laws, people desparate for jobs, lax environmental standards-the usual reasons. They move from Ohio to Mississippi and from Mississippi to Mexico.

As Vonnegut would say, "And so it goes"...

if (when) Nissan moves jobs to Mexico

did anyone notice that Nissan is controlled by Renault, the once largely state-owned car company of the evil French? Ghosn, the French head of Renault, is credited with turning the failing Nissan around.

irony, oh irony...

(I had a Renault, once. Not the LeCar-- a real Renault. Great little car, but getting parts was a bitch.)

And I've seen people settle for $2,500 for losing a finger in an industrial accident. The "union" in the plant I worked at was a joke, and nobody knew any better. They were just happy to be making 7 bucks an hour with semi-decent benefits.

Best jobs in the area if you didn't have much education. And if you said anything about safety or being hosed on hours/pay, you not only were let go, you likely wouldn't be hired anywhere else, either.

I'm angry at these companies for taking advantage of the workers. I do not feel it's up to each individual worker to educate himself on all the minutiae of all the labour laws. That's what unions are supposed to be for, to represent the worker.

"Right to work" is one of the early examples of Cheap Labour Conservatives winning the propoganda wars.

and with so many of the industries that used to be there and now aren't, there is a hungry workforce who will gladly work off the clock or take less money..'

Just guessing, but that would be my take on it..

that and the weather is mild in the winter, so less cost to heat a large plant.. The people are probably used to the heat in the summer, so that would be a plus for a company manager..

are not used to the heat in the summer. Another crack. My wife is off work all this week from heat stroke last Sat. in the local mower plant. And yes we are in Tn., they have a union, and we are educated.

That should be a health violation:( Doesn't the union raise holy hell about the fact that it's too hot??

It's not just the south ..It happens all over, when there are more people than jobs.. My husband's company pays union wages for carpenters and all their shop guys..but their competitors sometimes hire undocumented workers, and end up getting contracts that they should not really get, since they are paying such shitty wages, but the workers are happy to get those $6 an hour jobs and even though they are not great cabinet makers, their bosses are making big money by cheating the employees..

What is sad is that myu husband's company gets frantic calls all the time from contractors who just realized that the cabinet company that got the bid is a glorified sweatshop and they are asking for my husband's place to bail them out at any cost, but they have too much work, and cannot help..

The company that he works for has been in business for 35 years and has a great reputation, but because of their labor costs, they pass on a lot of jobs..

They actually have contract work to carry them through 2005, and are actually hiring while others are laying off, so you do not have to cheat your workers to make money..

air condition a plant that covers about 60 acres? Modern plants could pull that off I guess, but this one was built in the 50's. There's some new plants around here also and they don't spring for that kind of kindness I can assure you.

In fact ... I live on the West Coast. In order to find a man worth having had to go clear to Knoxville. We met on the internet - he could read, write, and everything !!! Oh and a welder in a UNION too. I love Southern men - one in particular.

http://www.deloitte.com/dtt/cda/doc/content/Facility.pdf

http://faculty.washington.edu/krumme/location/saturn.html
Saturn: A Bayesian Example
(http://faculty.washington.edu/krumme/location/saturn.html)


Supporting & Related Pages:

Bayes
Decisions and Uncertainty


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In 1985 Roger Smith, GMs CEO, announced the secret Saturn project in order to "leap-frog" the Japanese car makers. Production started in October 1990 The project resulted in a $ 3.5 billion investment from GM and in an all new factory in Spring Hills, Tennessee From the space-frame Saturn car an almost self-contained production was launched with an "empowered" organization Nowadays the Saturn corporation is manufacturing about 320.000 cars a year and employs 10.000 people (Source)


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General Motors (GM) is launching a new car (Saturn) and is looking for a location and production site. After GM's location and real estate department has found its preferred site, it will assign a 'subjective' probability of .9 to this site suggesting that "we are 90% certain that Tennessee is superior to its closest competitors Michigan and New Jersey."

However, GM management is still sufficiently confident that this assessment is correct since it has relatively little prior knowledge of the state. It also does not want to give the impression of merely imitating Nissan's prior decision for Smyrna, relying too much on Nissan's experience or yielding to the Governor's persuasive abilities.

GM engages the FANTUS corporation, a large (formerly independent) location and corporate real estate consulting firm located in New Jersey (and acquired in 1996 by Deloitte & Touche), to carry out a quick survey and evaluation to confirm or reject its initial assessment. Fantus President Yaseen (of course a geographer by training) tells GM that the re-evaluation will be only 80% reliable because of time and measurement constraints and the limits GM has imposed on consulting fees.
GM now wants to know what its own, revised pro-Tennessee probability will be after Fantus's collection of additional independent information and unbiased reevaluation:

In terms of Bayes' Theorem:

E1 = event "Tennessee is superior over Michigan or N.J.
E2 = event "Tennessee is inferior"
P(E1) = .9

} = prior probabilities
P(E2) = .1
F = "Location evaluation by Fantus inicates Tennessee is superior"; then the conditional probabilities ("likelihoods") are:

P (F|E1) = .8 ( = reliability of new information
or the likelihood that new information supports the original hypothesis)
P (F|E2) = .2


Bayes' Theorem:
Posterior Probability = P (E1|F) = P(E1) P(F|E1)
---------------------
P(E1) P(F|E1) + P(E2) P(F|E2) = .9 x .8
-----------
.9 x .8 + .1 x .2 = .97


If the Fantus location survey indicates that Tennessee is superior, GM's new (posterior) probablity (confidence) should be .97

If, however, Fantus says: "Michigan or N.J. is a better location, what is GM's new probability (confidence) that Tennessee is still better?


1 - posterior probability that
Michigan or N.J. is superior = 1 - .1 x .8
--------------
.1 x .8 + .9 x.2 = .69 = posterior probability for Tennessee.

Are you still surprised that GM did not come to Washington State?





Criteria all spelled out by the company "planners"

http://www.deloitte.com/dtt/cda/doc/content/Facility.pdf

tried to go through that stuff. I don't get the point however. Tennesseans are pig farmers to be exploited is an old one. Is that it? Help me out.

It listed stuff like the availability of large plots of land..
inexpensive land
taxes
etc..
:)

cannot copy paste a pdf:(

land was cheap here but no more. People are getting wise to how much ceo's and the gov. will spend tax dollars for barren land.

I am not able to see a point there either. Maybe the "empowered" is supposed to be a clue? lol

Tennessee is able to produce a lot of power and it is quite inexpensive compared to here where the rates are unbelievably high and the Midwest where they, too, are on the rise.

rates are about to go up. In my town anyway. Anywhere from 6 to 8 percent to only 2 percent for business. Makes me wonder if chimp's minions are controlling the TVA.

plants in the South. For German automakers the South (and much of the US)is their China..the wages are much lower than what they pay in Germany. They don't *have* to provide health insurance and the amount of vacation time Americans get is much less than what European workers get.

same reason other Detriot jobs went to Canada, Mexico, Virginia etc.

Can you provide any data on that?

in Spring Hill, TN

http://www.uawlocal1853.org/index.htm

I pass the Saturn plant all the time when I go Grocery Shopping. They make Station Wagons here.

BTW, trivia fact - Bob Marley use to work at the Chrysler plant in Newark Delaware!!

I think that Saturn is the only one built outside on Tenn

and im pretty happy with it.

Cheaper labor, a friendlier environment towards big business (and in general), a willingness to cut the plants tax breaks, and import restrictions and red tape.