how many girls would let a guy massage them....

as long as they knew he was harmless and nice and basically could be trusted to just stick to the back? I ask because I think it's a sad commentary on how on guard girls are. I mean, any girl would be elated to get a a gift certificate for a masseuse, but 99% would balk if you offered to give one yourself, right? ....it just would be such a better world if "getting some" weren't such an ordeal and production. ...hopefully, some of you xx people can enlighten me, cuz when God made me he took the part of my brain that's for talking to girls and used it to double the part that's for politics. ...if only you people were as easy to get along with as animals.

unless there is sexual intent...or you are an old friend of mine and i trust you anyway...

I actually like to give them even if there's not going to be anything more...and I happen to like the excercise. ....perhaps if I had a sex life, though, I wouldn't be out to "settle" for at least getting to indulge in massaging a sexy back. (and, admittedly, yes of course, the hope is that she'll be so turned on by the massage that she'll insist we go further. But if not, I'll still have had a good time.

cos i am fully aware of that hope you have...

give a back massage. Even if you don't try to grab a feel you are hoping that you are turning her on so she will break and have sex with you. THAT is not just giving a massage and it is why I prefer to spend the money on a professional masseuse or if you want to do something nice for me give me a gift certificate.

(Sorry if you detect anger in my words, I saw my X-husband 2 weeks ago and have been in a bad mood every since)

With other women, I mean. I've given lots of lengthy massages (back, neck, shoulders. mostly, but sometimes arms and hands and occasionally legs and feet) that were about as 'platonic' as it gets...usually they wanted it hard (the massage, of course), which is what I tend to be best at because I picked up a lot of stuff from Chinese doctors and martial artists. If you've got deep knots or pain and can stand me digging around as if I was trying to destroy your vital points, I can get the job done.

I can do it more tenderly, but most of my recent experience has been of the hard-and-deep variety (again, I swear that I'm not loading this with double entendre, just this one time) and most of my past experience with doing it more gently has been in, or led into, more sexually intimate contexts. The other kind wouldn't even begin to fit into a sexual thing, unless BDSM was the order of the day.

In other words, I can be trusted to be a 'gentleman' but I wouldn't dream of offering to even give a cursory shoulder-squish to any woman I didn't know very well. It's inherently an intimate thing. There's got to be a certain level of trust involved, too. I don't particularly like receiving massages, either -- rather, it's very rare that I ever have let anyone massage me -- and I suppose that probably says something deep and meaningful about me.

My roomy loves to take pictures but HATE it when I take pictures of him!

Don't you put your paws on me...

...doesn't that qualify me for a little sumthin sumthin?

I'm not averse to that.

:popcorn:

I'll assume that you mean women since you earlier said "xx people".

I'm confused by your implying that women should trust you enough to allow you to massage them, but then you say that "getting some" should be easier. Which is it? :shrug:

You say that we should be as easy to get along with as animals. Do you think that MEN are easy to get along with? I find that you're generalizing quite a bit.

generalizing about all of MY experiences...hence my "nostalgia" for a world like Brave New World where women are obligated to be easy. I mean, basically, it's just too bad that women aren't like men. That is to say, attractive girls need to be more assertive and understand that they can go up to any guy (who's free at least) and simply say, "Let's go somewhere and get naked," ...or at the very least "command" the guy to massage her and nothing more.

well, I know I'm trustworthy, but, obviously, proving that to a new person is next to impossible, at least in a short time. Hence, it's impossible to "get some" unless you're willing and able and have time and money to jump through hoops. But most of the time it's just so not worth the effort since there's no payback, hence, you people ought to just be more assertive. At least that is, for you lady people who also just want some without all of the other rigamorle.

I know men are not always easy to get along with...but from the girl's point of view, if you're just looking to get some, you don't have to make a good impression per se, just be halfway attractive and wanting to get naked for the night. :)

...if only the "easy girls" weren't usually just the ones who were into the freaky weird stuff...and didn't give $.02 about politics

reassess what percentage of your brain is apportioned to various aspects of your intellect. The numbers don't add up.

There are very good reasons why most women won't just walk up to men and say, "Let's do it."

You need more real life and less fantasy.

Oh. Wait a minute. Yeah, you're right.

Mine's more likeThe Benny Hill Show.

why they wouldn't do that? I mean, at least once they establish that the guy is clean and safe?...and how long does it really take to establish that either way?

...obviously I need more "real life," otherwise I never would have posted it. ...and if you lady people would just allow yourselves to get as much action as your body actually wants then the world be a much better place! :)

..didn't you see the Seinfeld where Jerry makes the joke about how sex for women is like putting out the trash? "Ladies put the trash on the curb and know that they can always count on some guy in a jumpsuit to come take it away."

If I were to go into details, this post would get deleted, but I'd suggest doing a little reading on these matters.

but not very sexy.

:scared:

But what are you going to do, not stay in hotels? They're ALL gross, sadly.

"Now don't let me catch you stayin' in no Holiday Hotel"

That was a good song.

I didn't realize you were writing satire!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

than "hey baby, let's breed!"

:rofl:

and i tend to think most women are too naive and trusting for their own good

:hi:

:-)

Though there's at least one big thing that I have less need to be guarded against, and the existence of that big concern is one of humankind's greatest shames.

not that they don't need to be, but for the nice trustworthy guys, all those bad apples make it next to impossible to establish trust. I mean, I have a website called stoplittering.com and I'll tell that to girls simply because I figure that they'll figure that anyone who would be behind such a site (and has cats) must at least be harmless. but they'll still always say, "you never know, you could still be an ax murder." Sheesh! everybody's an ax murder! Hence, I give up and will just have to get rich and famous and ask Leo Dicaprio to hook me up!! :) ...unless you have some better ideas.

Here's a better idea... Be yourself, and don't try to convince a woman that you are not an axe murderer, and don't be one, and don't give unsolicited massages. If she doesn't respond positively to you for who you are and doesn't seem willing to let down her guard, then move on.

...but who has that kind of time...let alone patience and money? ...if only someone would start Prostitition University.

cats dont make people sane/trustworthy

that's the rule.

Don't forget that part -- very important. :-)

:D

:-(

I'm gonna try to get better and better at it -- learn from my mistakes. :-)

...don't get angry if you say yes.

so,ideally, how much talking is required to get to phase 2? ...assuming all the right words are said.

Work on the punchline, though.

Let me answer your question: all the talking in the world wouldn't be enough with your attitude. Have fun with the fillybuster.

:thumbsup:

what's wrong with an attitude of wanting sex without a relationship, per se? ...don't act like every guy isn't about that, if possible. it's not that a relationship wouldn't be preferable, I'm just a realist who knows I'm not in a position to establish one but don't think that should mean I have to be abstinent because of it.

Not "every guy," though, just as it's true that this desire isn't unique to men.

I was referring more to your way with words, and the implications conveyed thusly, rather than the actual basic intent of it all.

There's no correct word count or right words. Some guys need to read the phone book to me and some need only one sentence (and I'm NOT telling you what it is!)

Look, you've got two choices if you want someone else present for your sexual activity: Instant sex with random women (which you don't like, because the types who will literally go to bed with anyone usually have ...issues) or establishing a relationship.

To establish a relationsihp, you need someone you LIKE as well as lust after.

And that takes a certain amount of time.

How much time depends on the two people involved. Obviously you've never reached that point, or you wouldn't be asking that question, but it's a feeling of being on the same wavelength such as you've never experienced before.

That's the way it works--sorry.

Very, very astute. :D

"basically could be trusted."

:rofl:

And then you wonder why women are sometimes on guard?

:rofl:

I'm sorry, but, really?

either. Although I also wouldn't balk at a gift certificate for a massage...from a professional masseuse/masseur, mind you. :shrug:

It is impossible to give or get a back rub from another gay guy without it turing in to sex, unless you are a couple.

When I was single there was no quicker way to "getting some" then to say "god my back is sore". But now that I have been with the same guy for almost a year we give and get back rubs all the time without sexual implications.

I think in the op-o sex world men see it as a good way to get things started and then try to manipulate their way around the rest of the body, while women just want someone that they know they can relax around and feel special.

getting into women's pants, despite your disclaimer. Or as a substitute for sex, which, frankly, is a bit creepy.

Sorry, we're wise to that trick.

Establish a relationship with us first. That means talking to us as if we're real people worthy of your time and respect. Talk to women you're NOT interested in sexually--that's less threatening. Get a reputation as one who enjoys talking to women. Don't be the guy who listens to all her problems--that will put you in the "friends only" category. Just keep it light and fun. Don't use idiotic "lines"--find your own unique way of kidding around.

Once you have a relationship established, THEN massage to your heart's content. And get massaged in return.

I don't have that kind of time, let alone the fact that I just come off as too nervous and flaky...hence the feeling of futility.

long, lonely nights. Get used to futility, too.

If the world owed us a little "sumpin' sumpin" just for us wishing for it, I'd be so depleted of my Precious Bodily Fluids that I would have a hard time finding the strength to type this. It doesn't, though, so if you don't put in the time then you can't expect to reap potential reward. Sorry.

What are you, 90 years old and about to die?

No, you just want something for nothing. And you haven't learned to view women as people, rather than as a means of getting your rocks off.

As you have been told repeatedly but which you have chosen not to understand.

there is a subtext of intimacy in some massages...that might be why some women are wary.

If they know the person well, and are comfortable with the thought that it is strictly platonic, no problem.

I think it's a gray area for a lot of women.

Or if I complained of a tension headache and a female friend or a gay male friend said, "You know, neck massages are good for that," again, no problem.

But if a man I barely knew offered to give me a massage, my Creep Detector would go off.

I would if I trusted him.

I'll stick to just your back and shoulders.

Honest.
































:hide:

I'm a giver, not a receiver. :-)

:D

to behave.

:evilgrin:

:shrug: I get along with almost everyone..

believe that ANY kind of touch has to lead to sex. If they put an arm around you when your mother dies, they get pissed off if you say you aren't in the mood to hit the hay 15 minutes later.

That's why if we want a massage, we'll opt for a female or a gay guy.

(Not that sex isn't important or lovely or fun, but you scratching my back does NOT mean I want to give you a blow job.)

but I think you might be right.

Though I'd hope that the level of doofus that you describe is a rare and increasingly endangered animal.

my butt but I never assumed they wanted instant hot sex! Say, is this kind of a sex thread??

'in front,' during my Elvis stints. Strangers. And had them put my hands in various places. I usually don't care too much, and manage to keep things from escalating too badly -- it's mostly just fun, really, but there's no real likelihood of anything developing from it. Lowered inhibitions in Vegas, and the presence of a veritable sex god, I guess. :-)

The women who eplicitly stated desires and intentions, unless they were pretty drunk and talking dirty about their physical needs and my role therewith, were generally less touchy-feely and flirty and far more direct and frank...not only scared the hell out of me as a man arguably (and unfortunately) not yet emotionally ready for much of anything but also as a man who has seen Fatal Attraction. And when I do lose my second virginity, it's not likely to be with a women whose husband will be watching or with two women...might sound good, as does the prospect of instant hot sex, but when it was offered to me (sometimes rather insistently) it scared me at least as much as it aroused me. Aggressive women are fine, but some of these women would scare me even if I were ready for the action.

Some women also make fairly big assumptions about a man's readiness or willingness, especially when he's seen as something in the public domain or otherwise other than he really is (Elvis, in my case).

But, like I said, it's mostly okay. Until I figure out how a person who has become afraid of committment and averse to casual sex (even when it's been available on a damned platter) can ever again experience intimate relationships, getting rubbed against and grabbed by random women is as close as I'm likely to get to anything of that sort.

hence my frustration that all the bad dumb apples make my job (to get blowjobs (since you mentioned it) is so much more difficult. See, the thing most girls seem to overlook the fact that if a girl says massage my back only, the guy would have to really be dumb to break that promise since then the girl wouldn't give the guy a 2nd night to indulge her.

what man thinks with his brain?

What makes men think that the fact that they are unattractive doesn't matter?

I have no problem going up to someone and demanding either sex or a massage depending on my mood. But I don't want to be touched by icky people. Icky can mean a lot of things, unattractive, smelly, weird, socially inept, misogynistic etc.

And for this thread specifically, do you think some guy who wants to feel you up is on par with a licensed massage therapist in terms of the quality of a massage? If you wanted surgery would you go to a surgeon or the first guy who offered to remove that gall bladder for you? Especially if that guy was hanging around whining that nobody ever wants him to remove their gall bladder even though he'd enjoy it even if he didn't get sex as a result.

FREE

of thing, and I've always thought it was because they were so shallow you could wade in them.

Sometimes I think I read DU just for the bon mots. :P

:)

"if only you people were as easy to get along with as animals"

I should just not say anything, cause if I do, it's gonna be ugly.

...and nobody's cats get more luvin' than mine!!!

I go to a masseuse because they are trained and know where to rub in order to allieviate certain ailments.

There's a big difference between a massage from a masseuse or massage therapist and a massage from a romantic partner.

If you expect to be a romantic partner, a massage isn't going to be what gets me interested in you. You're going to have to talk to me and listen to me talk about myself.

Well said, Miss Millie.

1 in 3 women are sexually assaulted in their lifetime. Until that number changes significantly in the favor of women, my guard is staying way up.

It's sad that it has to be this way, but I try very hard to never put myself in a situation that may get out of hand.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4453820.stm
:eyes:

Women 'get blame for being raped'
Last Updated: Monday, 21 November 2005, 16:14 GMT

Women 'get blame for being raped'

Fewer than 6% of reported rapes result in a conviction
A third of people believe a woman is partially or completely responsible for being raped if she has behaved flirtatiously, a survey suggests.
The Amnesty International poll of 1,000 people also found over 25% believe she is at least partly to blame if she has worn revealing clothing or been drunk.

this makes me livid! And so sad. I was nearly raped and it took me years to come to terms with it and realize that it was not my fault. It's one thing to have the overwhelming urge to assualt a person. It's a totally different thing to act on it. They have a choice, those SOBs!

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

:cry: That poll terrified me. And the OP wonders why women won't allow some "safe" fellow the opportunity to molest them?

i like a lot of strength in the hands, so i will hire a male if given the choice

however, if it is a man i know, no, i don't allow him to give me a massage unless i'm interested in having sex w. him

if money is not involved, it just seems like the guy has no motive to be professional

i feel giving free massages is a classic lead-in to foreplay and i certainly enjoy it as such

so, yeah, i think yr analysis is correct, you can give a gift certificate for your friend to see a professional but if you offer to give the massage yrself, then be prepared for the expectations of sex that will follow

if you already know the girl is not interested in a sexual or romantic relationship w. you, the offer of the massage will lead to awkwardness

>i like a lot of strength in the hands, so i will hire a male if given the choice<

We were in a fairly serious car wreck several years ago. The only benefit to this was massage therapy. The first massage therapist I saw was male, he was overwhelmingly professional and did a great job. I didn't have a moment of discomfort or worry in his presence. He went on vacation; I saw someone else from the same practice when he was out.
Never again. I was very, very uncomfortable.

I see a female massage therapist. She's wonderful at what she does. I feel completely at ease around her.

Julie

the motive would be for you to want to come back again for another massage; and, again, if that's all I got out of it, I'd still have found it worthwhile. I was once told during a massage: "I'm never going to tell you to stop." ...so don't tell me that an amateur can't be almost as indulging as professional. Of course, the other motivation to give the best massage is simply because if you do it right the girl will have to really use some serious self-discipline to not ask for oral. ...a strategy that did indeed pan out once.

...all I'm saying is that you girls need to realize that, at least among the smart nice guys like me, there's always a free massage (and oral :)) available as often as you like and it's a shame for both sexes that we're all missing out.

I just can't watch this. It's like a slow motion car wreck with a less savant version of Rain Man at the wheel.

Most girls get wise to that one at about, oh, age 15 or so. When I was single, this was the most irritating come on ever.

Because let's be honest - you might be "trustworthy" and all that, but you're still trying to get into the girl's pants (yes, even if you really DO like her or want to date her or respect her yada yada yada). And it feels like you're trying to do it in kind of a sleazy, underhanded kind of way. Like you're hoping that once you touch her she'll be so enthralled with the back massage that she'll let down her guard and allow you to seduce her into bed before she has a chance to think about it rationally. And even if she can't be seduced, well, at least you get to touch some part of her, right? Well, I hate to tell you, friend, but that's a hallmark of a immature man, and it's dishonest.

I hated, hated, hated that crap when I was younger. HATED IT. Maybe this works on some girls, but it never worked on me. I don't think I ever went on a second date with a "backrub" guy. I always felt like saying, "You know, I can tell you like me, and maybe I might like you too if we got to know one another, but why don't you try talking to me a little before you ask me if you can put your hands all over me. And after we get to know one another and it's obvious that there is mutual interest, some kissing might be nice to start with. You know, when BOTH people are on the same page about what is happening physically, not just one person getting their jollies while pretending to do the other person a favor?"

And just for the record, I always appreciated the honest guy more than the ones who tried to weasel their way into my bed. I have never been offended by a man who came right out and told me he wanted to go to bed with me (as long as it was done in a respectful, honest way). In fact, on several occasions when I was much, much younger, I said yes because the guy didn't play games or try to trick me (and I was attracted too - that's obviously an important component).

Edited to add: My husband is a total chick magnet. Every time we go to parties or other social gatherings, women flock to him. They love him. Although he's only an average looking guy physically, he gets many compliments from other women about how attractive he is. (It's a good thing I'm not the jealous type.)

The secret of his success? He talks to women like they are real people. He doesn't treat them like they are the sum of their physical parts, and doesn't constantly interact with them with the hidden goal of getting them into bed (and yes, women can tell). Instead, he sees them as interesting human beings. He listens to them, pays attention to what they say, compliments and flirts lightly with them in sincere and non-sleazy ways, looks at their faces instead of their chests when he talks to them, and in general comes off as someone who is stable, secure, not a predator, and not desperate for physical or emotional attention from women.

Given the positive reactions he gets from women, my guess is that this behavior is rare in men today. And I will also say that I have known several men in my life who were very skilled socially in this way, and they all generally had their pick of women to date, love, and go to bed with. Learning these kinds of skills will get you a long, long way with women. Much farther than figuring out how to get women to submit to unwanted back rubs.

you are dead on!

:-)

They hurt. Therapeutic, but not exactly seductive (unless, perhaps, the recipient is Nurse Diesel).

;-)

So, um... does your hub have any single brothers...?

(except that I'm not married), and yes, men who really like women are relatively rare.

These rare birds usually marry young and stay married, more's the pity for the women of the species.

:D

(except that I'm not married), and yes, men who really like women are relatively rare.

These rare birds usually marry young and stay married, more's the pity for the women of the species.

who treat them as real people? I find politeness leads to further civility only. I'm married, of course, and, of course, my wife is with me at social events and she can be intimidating at times when she is not being charming.She is capable of telling other women that she is not amused. Of course a lot of our friends are lesbian women and this is also a factor.

a married man.

You must attract high-quality women. ;-)

quite bright and also very busy women, mostly educators. musicians and artists.

I'VE GIVEN UP TRYING TO DEVELOP A RELATIONSHIP, SO NOW I'M JUST EXPLORING IF THERE'S ANY HOPE AMONG SOME OF YOU LADY PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO AT LEAST SETTLE FOR A SIMPLE BACK MASSAGE. Believe me, girls who have known me will attest to my non-sleaziness and honesty.

...I sure would know what would qualify as an honest and respectful way about coming right out about wanting sex. ...you'd probably just throw a drink in my face like she did in Tootsie!! lol

"was she really not thinking about sex when she asked him to rub her belly? I envy that. I could not ask someone for a glass of water without thinking about sex." The Eden Express

And also it seems like too much over-thinking. It's all very simple though, don't offer anyone any back rubs and don't touch anyone. People are basically a pain in the ass. Being single and uninterested is the best thing I ever decided to do.

(evil guffaws)

....show me that sex machine!

iron maiden!

this post has been bothering me for a while...

First...this statement says it all..

"it just would be such a better world if "getting some" weren't such an ordeal "

You view the offer of a backrub as a sheepish/infantile way to ask for sex.

Next...the sexist part..

"God made me he took the part of my brain that's for talking to girls and used it to double the part that's for politics"

Your implication is that you can't speak to women because you don't know how to talk to them??? Women are people. They like to talk about the issues they are interested in and if you have a hard time talking to women then perhaps it is because you have been raised to view women as a object of prey not as an individual/person which is why you wish we were more "animal like".

Well said.

"Ladies, if you could read our minds, you would never stop slapping us."
what's wrong with my "ordeal" statement?...it's my honest assessment.

I can talk to women just find as long as I'm not interested in sex with them. But if I think she's attractive and could possibly be seduced by me I just go into panic mode. Like when you walk through a room with someone sleeping and you try so hard to not make any noise that you spaz out and drop stuff. kind of like trying to defuse a bomb....say one wrong word and you don't get a second chance.

Frankly, people who prefer to just be by themselves most of the time shouldn't have to also be sans physical intimacy.

none of it until I want you to touch all of it. And when I'm ready, you'll know about it.

Why in the world do you expect women to allow you to touch them if they don't know you?

This reminds me of a guy I went out with who was studying massage, not certified yet, and he thought he could practice on me on our second date. Think again, bra.

"some of you xx people"

"...if only you people were as easy to get along with as animals."

"hence my "nostalgia" for a world like Brave New World where women are obligated to be easy. "

"I mean, basically, it's just too bad that women aren't like men"

"you lady people"

"...if only the "easy girls" weren't usually just the ones who were into the freaky weird stuff..."

"..and if you lady people would just allow yourselves to get as much action as your body actually wants then the world be a much better place!"

" in that case, do you wanna hear the world's most chauvinistic joke? ...don't get angry if you say yes."

"so, ideally, how much talking is required to get to phase 2? ...assuming all the right words are said."




*******

Hope you enjoyed your stay here at DU.

This affects our inclusive fitnesses.

...are the last guy who needs any of that advice!


:patriot:

are too kind.

:loveya:

But you know, when I was typing that last response to you, I must have pulled a muscle in my neck. Mmmm... so sore... you wouldn't happen to know any guys who give good therapeutic massages, would you?

By good I mean, I like it hard... hard and deep. Mmm hmmm...


:loveya:


(Now mods, don't get uptight. I'm referring to post # 7. This is totally innocent. And even if it isn't, he started it!)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=4380779&mesg_id=4380779

:D

But of course...hard and deep all the way! I mean...not "all the way" all the way...um...the mods don't like that kinda talk and....um...

:loveya:

you want honesty or you want us to pretend that we'd really have any interest talking to xx people if we weren't so concerned about touching as many of you as possible?

just because I can't help myself from being preoccupied with sex, doesn't mean I'm not nice, honest and compassionate and respectful...per se.

.... then a post like this pops up.

Join a club, get a hobby, get out of the house, mix with people.

Do NOT ask a woman if you can rub their back - we're not stupid, and I'm sure you don't want to appear as stupid as your post implies.

I'll just hope you're young enough that we can blame this on callow youth. If you're over the age of 25, then it may be too late.

"The pinnacle of assery" :rofl:

I'm just discussing all this as hypothetical theory for "research" to ascertain how things would be different if a girl could read a guy's mind and know that a) he's harmless, and b) he'd gladly give you the massage of your life with no expectations or demands if YOU just asked.

basically, the most difficult thing about dealing with xx people is-besides the fact that none of you trust us cuz of all the bad apples, which also lowers your sense of humor--is that since all of you go at different paces it's impossible to ever know which girls need a whole lot of buttering up, and which girls don't. ...hence the futility of trying to get anywhere when it's always like walking on eggshells. ...and, again, why,if I was the king, I would mandate that the girls have to be the "aggressors."

You'll go farther and be happier in the world when you stop referring to women as "xx people," and stop generalizing us into a collective "you." That's called "objectifying" and women find it offensive. Just don't do it. Stop it.

You generalize about how women mistrust all men. You're the mistrustful one, because you fail to trust that women don't like a guy for a specific reason. Rather than trusting (respecting) a woman's reasoning and intellect, you'd rather just reject her choice and say she's wounded, or has baggage, or needs "a whole lot of buttering up." Newsflash! Those qualities are true for men too, Mr. Hope, and the day you stop naming women as the problem and start looking at yourself in the mirror will put you one day closer to finding somebody to love.

I used to have a friend like you theorize about - willing to give backrubs to gals in lieu of sex. Decent guy, chivalrous to women, financially secure, generous with the weed. He had a fast car and a spendy apartment. He was straight as an arrow, horny, and lonely. Women didn't like him in "that" way.

Why? He dominated conversations. He whined if the group didn't want to do something he wanted to do. His glasses were dorky and outdated. He needed dental work. He talked obsessively about his car and his stereos. He was always complaining about heartburn. He regularly wore skimpy nylon jogging shorts in public, and he was not a jogger. When one of us gals looked particularly attractive, he didn't just give a compliment, he gushed and sometimes even leered. He'd invite people over to party, and then complain about the ungrateful hordes. I'll stop there.

I could not have told him any of this outright in those days. Today, maybe I could, but I don't know. He was a good friend to me, he was caring and helpful. But I always held our friendship at arm's length because I knew that he was desperately lonely. I knew that if I gave him any indication of interest whatsoever he'd be all over me like white on rice - not because of my special and unique me-ness, but because he wanted a woman, any woman.

We lost touch over the years. The last I heard, he was married and I think a father too. I'll always remember him well. I hope he is happy, and that life brought him the love he was seeking, as it did for me.

If you want women to like you, make yourself more likable. It's true for everyone. Personally, I've realized I have very few friends in my "real life," and I've made a concerted effort to make myself "friendlier." I smile at people I work with. I've invited people over. I try not to engage in gossip. I think about myself positively, and think about others positively too.

Things aren't going to change for you overnight. But they will change when you change.

for the most part.

"xx" people is just my sense of humor; hence, why I should seek girls like Sarah Silverman.

how is it INCORRECT generalizing that most women don't trust men? Obviously they can dislike a guy for specific reasons, but not liking and not trusting are not necessarily synonymous.

I'm not saying the women are the problem per se. I'm pointing out that because of all the bad apples you women have to put up with, it makes my life more difficult. Just a fact, ma'am.

...so you basically confirmed my point: that unless a guy is a player (honest and trustworthy or not), he can't expect to have any kind of physical intimacy in his life (once in a blue moon or daily) unless he really has a lot of time, some discretionary income and knows how to act natural when trying to defuse a bomb, so to speak. LOL, dammit.

Why should any person trust another person? Trust is earned over time, and should be given cautiously. Trust given freely is trust easily broken. And if a woman doesn't LIKE a guy, why should she be expected to TRUST him? And vice versa.

"You women..." You just don't get it, do you? What part of STOP IT do you not understand?

You'll believe what you want to. I sure hope you outgrow it. Otherwise, you'll have some long and lonely times ahead.

"some" or "in my limited experience" would be a good start.

Of course, they were talking about foot massages, but any type of massage really does qualify...

Jules: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa... stop right there. Eatin' a bitch out, and givin' a bitch a foot massage ain't even the same fuckin' thing.
Vincent: It's not. It's the same ballpark.
Jules: Ain't no fuckin' ballpark neither. Now look, maybe your method of massage differs from mine, but, you know, touchin' his wife's feet, and stickin' your tongue in her Holiest of Holies, ain't the same fuckin' ballpark, it ain't the same league, it ain't even the same fuckin' sport. Look, foot massages don't mean shit.
Vincent: Have you ever given a foot massage?
Jules: Don't be tellin' me about foot massages. I'm the foot fuckin' master.
Vincent: Given a lot of 'em?
Jules: Shit yeah. I got my technique down and everything, I don't be ticklin' or nothin'.
Vincent: Would you give a guy a foot massage?

Jules: Fuck you.
Vincent: You give them a lot?
Jules: Fuck you.
Vincent: You know, I'm getting kinda tired. I could use a foot massage myself.
Jules: Man, you best back off, I'm gittin' a little pissed here.

popcorn left? :shrug:

It's organic!


:popcorn:

Btw — while reaching for the popcorn, I promise not to touch you in any way that could be construed as a sexual overture.

Furthermore, I will not make the obvious connection between offering me popcorn and wishing to engage in sexual relations — despite the fact that you made a point of noting said popcorn's organic nature, and that can only mean it has aphrodisiac qualities.

I shall also politely ignore your use of "share" — even though we all know what that means.

And I won't even discuss "I got lots."

O8)

:rofl:

I meant "orgasmic."

I don't get where you make the "aphrodisiac" connection, though.


"Btw — while reaching for the popcorn, I promise not to touch you in any way that could be construed as a sexual overture."

Oh, go ahead. I'm a popcorn whore and everybody knows it. Yeah, I offer popcorn the way some people offer back rubs. It's just a slimy way to get gratuitous sex, which I will always claim began as a totally innocent, charitable act until you twisted it into something sexual.

=sigh= If only you easy xy people weren't into that freaky wierd stuff.

...designed to promote procreation."

Every proponent of Intelligent Design knows that. :crazy:



As long as we understand each other...



:rofl:

massage them...


you are sleazy...


thats why.

:spray: :rofl:

again, it's amazing that any girl should treat what I've written as if it's not what every guy thinks. Like when Jerry Seinfeld joked that he'll be at a party and think, "You know, I could just grab this knife and stick it through that guy's eye." and think to himself, "why am I thinking this, I don't even know that guy and would never have any intention of doing it."

in other words, it's impossible to "natural" when talking to a girl because as soon as the conversation begins I feel like a fraud since I assume she thinks I'm only talking to her to get some. ...not that I wouldn't actually enjoy the companionship of a relationship along with the intimacy part, I'm just explaining that since I've lost hope in establishing that aspect of a relationship it would be nice to figure out how to at least have physical intimacy with girls who can only be about the intimacy AND the companionship.

(yes, I know it's masseurs and masseusses, but didn't have the room in the subject line!)

and I don't care which one works on me. While it's a very sensual experience for me, it's not a sexual one, and it really doesn't matter who is doing it. The one thing I like about guys doing it is their strength--I need a deep tissue massage and many of the women just don't have the strength to get deep into the muscles the way that a guy can--yes, there are some women who do it well, though, but lately, it's a lot of young girls who are doing it and just can't get deep enough to really work out the knots.

Why....are you anywhere near Massachusetts and offering? I'll come to get one!


And no, I wouldn't have sex with you--I'm only after a good massage.

there is no way in hell I'll let a guy I don't know/don't know well massage me.

I have received (and given) platonic massages, but they were with friends.

is just a massage.







(Hey, somebody had to say it.) :silly:

offering it to someone and expect them to enjoy it. Just rubbing someone's back may be temporary relief, but learning how to really work specific problem areas willl make people want you to massage them.

I learned a little about sacro-cranial massage. To me it is one of the most relaxing types of massage one can get and it requires very little work by the masseuse, just patience and care. If I give someone a massage they will usually come back and ask me to do it again later.

Second, never confuse therapeutic massage with sexual massage. If you offer someone a massage and their expectation is a therapeutic or relaxing massage and you turn it into a sexual massage, you just destroyed the whole point of it all and most likely will not get any sex out of it either.

Having said that, if you learn to give a good massage and do it without expectation of reciprocation of some type, there will be plenty of takers and who knows, if you are being a genuine person with no ulterior motives, you may end up meeting someone wonderful in the process.

You are exactly right!

as i said earlier: I was once had a girl tell me: "I'll never tell you to stop." trust me, I can do it in a way that's therapeutic yet still arousing. It's a fine line, I know.

my dad made me give him massages when I was a kid to release the stress and so I learned out to work them muscles. and he really demanded the high pressure rubs.

:D

No, women do not want back massages from you. We all know it's a cheap and sleazy 15-year-old boy's version of a come-on opening line and it's stupid as hell.

massages. ..from decent guys who will be gentlemen.

...as hard as it is for y'all to believe any of us actually exist.

we were all very young and I had known them for a good amount of time. We all worked hard days and sometimes a backrub is very nice. I could use one right now.

But even then you could tell who was trying to score and not, and the backrubs almost always happened in the company of other people.

As a woman nearing thirty, I don't want strange men giving me backrubs even if they claim they're "nice" and "harmless". It's basically an ego soaked "she'll feel my hands and think I'm so good at these/think about my hands all over her." Gross.

If you're my boyfriend, okay. If you're my friend from the old days, okay. That's it.

afternoon. Unless you're a troll and are just jerking us around, or are a pubescent male who is not yet able to think rationally because of your hormones, I don't understand how you can not understand the situation that women are in. My understanding of what you're saying after the massage part is "ladies, I'm not going to hurt you so I don't understand why you don't just open your legs and let me have my way with you."

I'm an extremely polite poster, but this is just beyond the pale to me. As a woman, I'm insulted. If that was your intent, you succeeded.

...the fact that someone women, though, are exactly the opposite from you, proves my point. so forgive me for trying to understand what it takes to walk that line in order ingratiate myself to women. ...if only you all had Sarah Silverman's sense of humor.

One night we were at a bar on Hawthorne in Portland.. I was joking around and told my friend Aaron that I would buy the next round if he would start rubbing the back of the girl behind him in the next booth. He told me that I would need to rub the back of the guy behind me.

We did, and both were a little freaked out at first. (they had no warning) But it turned into a big back-rubbing party.

So we decided to try a little experiment. Basically we traveled around Portland rubbing random peoples backs without permission. Bus stops were best for this.

We only did this for about a week. We tested things like: Female=>Female, Male=>Male, Female=>Male, Male=>Female..

We also conducted a few test dealing with attractiveness.. Handsome guy rubbing cute girl.. ect... you get the idea.

I need to find the CD with the results.. They were kinda interesting.

I had better check the fine print in my dental insurance first.

see how tolerance and questioning can lead to more people getting free massages!!

I'm going to start a club that only allows in guys who can prove they're safe and harmless and we'll all have special membership cards to separate us from the guys who truly are the sexists. (I know, I know. Y'all think I'M the sexist.)

I used to at least. Now I moved to a different city and have no female friends :( But that won't last long.

I used to give all the girls I worked with massages, too. They loved it, obviously. I am very good at it, and there was never anything sexual about it.

My female friend and I used to do that every time we hung out. We called it a "5 for 5" where we would trade off giving five minute massages. Of course, the massages ended up lasting for about a half hour, but it was great. Sooner or later, all of her friends were doing it with me, too.

There is nothing better than a massage to show affection without being sexual, and to reduce each other's stress levels. Honestly, I have probably given massages to about 20 different girls in the last 3 years. And I haven't had sex with one of them. I even gave my bartender a massage once at the bar.

What the hell...lighten up, y'all!

I seriously don't understand who wouldn't want a massage. If someone offered to give me one, I would accept...guy, girl, woman, man, alien...they fucking feel good!

Just accept the massage, and if someone wants to have sex with you afterwards, that's their fucking problem, not yours.

I hardly ever weigh-in on these battle-of-the-sexes threads here because I find most of them juvenile to say the least. It tends to be the kind of banter one can witness in high school or in the college dorms, and I left that garbage far behind me long ago. It's not even entertaining anymore. This thread really isn't much different, but it struck a personal chord. So, I'll offer a male perspective.

I think you're answering your own question here: the "problem" is you.

This is pretty easy to parse. You want women to trust you to "just stick to the back," which implies up front you're already thinking about other things. Then you drop the phrase about "getting some" being an ordeal. Whether you intend those words to mean what they are being inferred to mean is beside the point. The way you ask the question betrays what's on your mind and what will invariably come through with your body language. I imagine from reading this you're not very comfortable, at least internally, talking to women, as in T-A-L-K-I-N-G. You might be able to chat it up just fine, but you're not really talking. You're planning.

If I'm wrong on that, I apologize, mildly, but both your original post and some additional comments you've made lead me to no other conclusion, so at least some of the responsibility for me coming to a false conclusion, if that is the case, rests with you.

Now, the reason this struck a personal chord is that I don't like being touched, by anyone, without an invitation, and I don't give out those invitations easily. I don't even want people close enough to me they might accidentally touch me, and I have a huge problem with people who have a cultural background that doesn't recognize the concept of personal space extending out more than a few inches from a person's body. Yeah, I have issues, but that's the point.

I'm a man, not a pretty man either. Not a lot of people really want to touch me, but in my past people did so, and not all those people had friendly intentions. In truth, very few of those people who touched me had bad intentions, but just one was enough. It's shaped my attitude in ways that will never change. If I don't know you really well and trust you fully, you best consider whether you want to keep all your body parts intact before you make contact with any part of my body. Touching is very personal to many people, and to people who have experienced touching being a method used to break down barriers prior to some sort of abuse, it is even more personal. And, just to address the curious, I'm not talking about physical rape or molestation either. I'm talking about emotional rape that began with the touching.

Imagine if you're female and dealing with roughly half the population wanting to touch you for reasons other than the ones you might want to be touched. Then imagine someone comes along you don't know very well wanting to "rub your back" who just dropped a brick on a discussion forum about "getting some" being an ordeal. Imagine people wanting to touch you who even refer to physical intimacy as "getting some."

You know, I have a lot of female friends, and the vast majority of them *ask me* to rub their backs or neck or even feet and legs. Why? They *know* I'm not the kind of person who thinks in terms of "getting some," but they didn't know that when they met me. They didn't know that after knowing me six months. They know that because they've known me for years, and they've TALKED with me for years, and we have developed genuine trust between us.

</rant>

It said much better than I was able to say in reference to how I felt after reading the original post.

Fat lot of good it did in either case. :-)

I'm just indignant at having to suffer watching this kind of nonsense constantly.

sheesh, amazing that even a guy would poo poo honesty.
you act like it's sleazy that a guy would think about getting some...as if I've revealed some inner secret that guys have.

...and if I WAS getting some once in a blue moon, then, sure, it would be a lot easier not to be so preoccupied about it. I'm just pointing out that it's seems kind of injust that nice guys who are sensual, yet inept with women (and/or just don't have the time or money) should have to suffer without physical intimacy.

...I'm already quite aware that the problem is me. Hence the reason for seeking some insight from others on here.

First the massage, which is supposed to have nothing to do with your "getting some". Secondly, the "getting some". What do they have to do with one another when you said that your intention was to only give a back rub and not go any further?

No wonder we're all so confused!

be a happy camper. But obviously it goes without saying that if things should go beyond that then I'd be an even happier camper.

You're not a nice guy. That's not an insult. It's an observation.

Here's a clue. A cad who tells the truth is still a cad.

When you start asking for advice about women, and two dozen women tell you that you're being insulting, to be mild, just by the way you ask the question, and you respond to that criticism with passive-aggressive pleas for pity for being truthful, that does not make you a nice guy. A nice guy examines his own behavior and modifies it without having to be beaten about the head and ears.

Nothing in your written behavior in this thread in any way indicates you are one of the "nice guys" of song and story. Your language does not indicate any sense of your having an ability to maintain genuine intimacy, understand anything about a woman's feelings, or actually give pleasure. I assume you've heard the phrase that the mind is the most powerful sexual organ? This is not a trite saying. It is a fact. Learn what that means, and you might be on your way to understanding why your words here have irritated just about everyone.

Let me be more direct. You are inept with women because you see them as conquests. You view sexual intimacy as "getting some." (Have you ever read anything by Betty Friedan or one of her contemporaries? Try doing so, and *maybe* you'll understand why that phrase, whether you call it an ordeal or not, is incredibly insulting, or to be more blunt, sexist. Or better yet, listen to what the women in this forum are telling you.) You view a massage as "settling" for less than you want, and you're pissed because you can't even get that, so you ask for advice about why women won't let you grope them when you really, really, really will "settle" for "only" a massage if that's "all" they will allow you to do. You want, you need. You have to have, but (pout, pout - poor, poor me) are willing to settle.

Did you ever, once, stop to think what the woman wants? Let me tell you what she wants. She wants to be respected as a person, not a conquest, not some blob of flesh from which you "get" something to achieve your goal. She doesn't want you to plant a flag on her, and she doesn't want your shaking, sweating palms burning with lust running across her skin when she's had a really hard day and really just wants to relax with someone who understands, or at least tries to understand what she is feeling in her soul.

Here's a thought experiment. Let's say you're a completely straight male who lusts after women. Let's say you know a homosexual male who is very sexually attracted to you, is constantly flirting with you, and always throwing off body language that indicates your mere presence makes him feel all warm and bubbly. Let's say you two are alone one night. You've been talking, having a nice time. He moves a little closer to you, smiles an awkward smile, and says, "Hey, can I give you a massage?" You hesitate, so he adds, in a breathy, stammering voice, "I promise, if that's all you want, I'll settle for that." You can see him blush.

What do you do?

I agree with everything you wrote. :)

Whatever I have learned about people, I learned by paying attention as I was growing up. At family gatherings, Mom and Grandma and my aunts and female cousins talked and laughed and had fun interacting. My uncle, the male influence, scratched himself, belched, and spoke only when issuing commands and announcing his toilet schedule. My male cousin entertained himself by finding new ways to torture me.

It wasn't too hard to figure out who was more fun and who I preferred to emulate. :-)

:hi:

It's a great intro to foreplay.

when you're giving it, trained or not, for therapeutic reasons. I guess if you're 'involved,' and you both sort of drift across that line at one point, it's a different story, but otherwise it's a massive violation of trust.

By the way, I'm at least 100% sure that you know this, I'm just kind of banging our clueless friend here over the head with it in hopes that he will finally 'get it' (as opposed to "get some"...get some what? VD?).

yet so many posts proved my point: that girls will certainly take advantage of free massages from a guy if and when she trusts him. ...and I guess I'm just venting about how frustrating it is that even though I'm actually honest and harmless, establishing that trust is so far from instantaneous as long as telepathy isn't available. ...and even establishing that trust over time is next to impossible unless you can get to know someone at work.

and you are not going to get laid with your lousy attitude. DU is not a singles forum--I suggest you look somewhere else.

a) I know it's not a singles forum, but, like, a lot of stuff on here has nothing to do with politics so don't act like I'm breaking some rule, b) give an example of me not being honest; if I had modified my remarks to avoid offending anyone, THEN, you could have said I wasn't honest., c) how on earth can you claim to know I'm not harmless? Obviously I might be very harmfull since all strangers, by definition, could be, but I could just as easily be the most non-violent guy in the world. (and my cats will attest to that)

...you act like I actually figured that there'd be a chance that some cutie on here who wouldn't be offended would also happen to live near me.

is to 'get some' from a ladyperson. Fine. maybe all or most males (females, too) have gamete dispersal, and the sensations accompanying it, somewhere in mind at any given moment, but you indicate the exact opposite of willingness to suppress that (assuming that it needs suppressing -- sometimes, men and women can be honestly intimate with no appreciable sexual component whatsoever) when it is not welcome or appropriate for either or both parties.

The reptilian -- or even Hugh Hefner -- portions of our brains might at times relish the thought of an unchained society in which xx-people rampage half-naked in search of the nearest male appendage, which is pretty much what you indicate as your ideal world, but I would rather be celibate forever than live in such a world (though maybe I could visit, once every few years) because women really are more than that. We all are. Sure, in some ways, women are fundamentally different than us but, when it comes down to it, we are ultimately bound by more commonality than divided by gender-related differences, societal or not. In fact, I wager that I have more in common with most of the women that I know (I even leave the toilet seat down) than I do with you.

Most of my friends, when I think about it, and most of my circle of acquaintances these days, are women. Some, to be perfectly honest, might be exceptionally sexually compatible with me and I cannot deny some attraction (sometimes unequivocally mutual, even), but why should I spoil a good thing just because I miss sex? I'd rather their true friendship than the perhaps fleeting comfort of their bodies...and one day I will again find someone, or someones, with whom I'll share both. You will, too, if you ditch the outright misogynistic crap you're spouting and realize that Beneath the Valley of the Ultra-Vixens is a work of fiction. I know what it's like to be alone and sexually frustrated, but if I can survive without becoming a seriously objectifying sleazeball sniffing around the asses of women who patently don't like my demeanor and attitude, then you sure as hell have no excuse.

Thank you for this post.

I mean that sincerely as a person who feels genuine pain to see people exhibit this kind of behavior.

Look, I know you think you're being honest. It's part of your illness. I know you think a lot of people are just being mean. We're not, not as mean as we could be. I've met a lot of boys like you since my daughter entered her teens. I keep a shovel in my truck, and whenever they see me, I make sure they are aware I don't dig holes without already having something to put in them. If you were settling for massages with my daughter, that shovel would indicate how mean I can be.

Frankly, you're the kind of guy that scares the crap out of me when I think of my daughter. I'm afraid she'll fall for it and end up in a co-dependent relationship from hell with a passive-aggressive self-loathing individual who tries to make others feel bad about his own faults. Luckily, she hasn't, and I hope she's smart enough not to. She's got a wicked left hook, as well.

:-)

massages at home deteriorate (or escalate as the case may be) into sex, and it is nice to be touched asexually.

they just know it

try to upgrade it to "communicating"; they're very different things. Once you learn to do this, I don't think that you'll have a problem finding women (NOT girls) who are interested in you without your having to find a cheap way to manipulate them into having sex with you.

I find it interesting that you stated somewhere that most of the women who are willing to do what you want are not interested in politics, and that seemed to be a negative thing to you. I wonder why you care whether or not they're interested in politics. It seems as though you just want their bodies. At least, that's what I sense from the sum of what you've stated. If I'm wrong, I apologize, but you need to know how you come across to at least this "xx person".

I'll be happy to help you to better understand women, but only so that you can be a better person -- not so that you can "get some".