Has Anyone Seen Someone in a Burqa (sp) in this country?

I just saw where the Dutch may outlaw the burqa. But I have never seen one here. We have women who where headscarves but no burqas.

They have got to be the most uncomfortable garment - can't even see out except thru a screen.

It made my blood boil. I try to be understanding and respectful of other cultures and religious, but I just cannot accept the subjucation of women.

:shrug:

some women may indeed be "oppressed" by our standards, but many Muslim women feel liberated by wearing hijab. It makes people focus on what she is saying, not on what she looks like.

I have Muslim friends, and have met many Muslim women, and there is not a one that feels she has to wear hijab out of oppression. Quite the contrary-- those that do often feel liberated from the pressure of living up to unrealistic "standards" of beauty that many feel are forced upon them by our society.

I said that I try very hard to be understanding of other cultures and religions, but fully admit that I struggle with this issue. I still don't see how that makes me sexist. Especially since I am a woman.

I have many Muslim friends too, and they've told me the same thing. I can accept that answer in some cases, however I don't know if I agree with the argument 100%. For instance, I too have a lot of trouble with our society's unrealistic standards of beauty. I meet none of them. But I'd like to think there are some more moderate alternatives to looking like a Barbie doll than wrapping oneself in fabric from head to toe no matter what the weather. Also, two of my Muslim friends who wear hijab are two of the most gorgeous women I know, and wear tons of make-up, jewelry and high heels. They also allow their families and husbands to treat them in ways I would NEVER allow because that's the way they were raised. As much as I love these two women, that makes me question their argument as well.

All that aside, I do very much try to accept that other's choices are simply going to be different that my own. But for every woman who wears this covering by choice, I cannot help but wonder how many woman wear it because they must, or they feel they must. How many of them feel they have no choice? I guess that is what really makes me angry. I'm sorry if that emotion is incorrect, but that's how I feel.

about covering up with modest clothing by choice. I actually think the hijab is very attractive, but I also think nuns look good so I'm kind of out there. But when I see the girls at FSU with their pants so low their pubes and butt cracks show, and their little bellies exposed in the cold..I feel so badly that they think they have to dress that way. And the strange thing is the guys wear clothes so loose they could have a six pack and an assault rifle under there. It is the most extreme double standard of fashion I ever remember. The hard part is when it is forced on us. On the other hand, for years I had to wear a hat to church and a skirt to school and I never felt like a second class citizen.

Now a burqua..well, you know it would be nice to grab one on bad hair days when you don't want anybody to recognize you. But having to put one on is an entirely different story. But I'd kind of like to wear one and present my ID when cashing a check, and the picture is me in a burqua. That makes me laugh.

ooo-la-la, baybee!!

many Muslims also think the burqa is extreme. But, whatever somebody chooses to wear is her/his own business, as long as it doesn't directly hurt somebody else, as far as I'm concerned.

The burqa itself originated in either northern India or Persia, depending on whose scholarship you believe, and actually predates Islam.

This article does a good job of exposing the origins of the burqa.

I found this bit quite interesting:


Interesting how class gets tied up in even this subject.

Sorry, but I've had too many discussions with those types to buy that argument. I've heard more than one fundie woman claim that it's better to allow her husband to run the household because it "liberates" them from the "responsibility" of work and politics so they can concentrate on more important things.

A Hijab may make people concentrate on what the wearer is saying over what she looks like, but the Hijab also bluntly states that the wearer is inferior, and that the opinion we can hear so clearly really isn't worth all that much.

Besides, women who are ashamed of their looks have other psychological problems that need to be dealt with. There are plenty of women who get their voice across quite clearly while ignoring the "standards" of beauty in our society...and they don't need to hide behind a piece of cloth to do so.

The origins of the hijab are well known, and denying their oppressive origins and nature is as transparently false as denying the blueness of the sky.

Actually, the origins of the hijab are NOT well known, and are widely disputed even among devout Muslims and Muslim scholars. To say that the origins of hijab are well-known only exposes the ignorance of your post.

There are verses in the Quran that tell both women AND men to dress modestly and humbly, and NOT show off their beauty or their wealth. If you actually looked, you will see that you will almost NEVER see a bare-chested Muslim man in public or wearing tight-fitting pants. It's also not uncommon to see Muslim men wearing their shirts untucked, or wearing a suit jacket because they believe that exposing the buttocks is immodest.

The hijab was not "imposed" on Muslim women any more than modest dress was ALSO "imposed" on Muslim men (who, BTW, are ALSO required to dress modestly, according to the Quran and hadith). Some sects interpret that hijab means covering all but the face and hands, while others (some Sufi orders) state only that dress is "modest".

Believe it or not, some women DO want to wear hijab-- it is not "imposed" on them any more than their own religious beliefs are "imposed" on them.

To impose our own values and customs on somebody else, just because WE think s/he are being "oppressed", reeks of the kind of cultural imperialism that drives our efforts to "liberate" other countries.

And if hijab is SO oppressive, why do many AMERICAN born-and-raised Muslim women CHOOSE to wear it?
:eyes:

Sorry, I'm not buying it. The headscarf and conservative dress are actually common to all of the Abrahamic religions, not just Islam (my Catholic grandmother didn't stop wearing hers until the 1960's...when the Vatican said it was OK to take it off).

As for the origins of the Hijab, it's actually pretty clear to any "non-religious" scholar who looks at it (religious scholars are generally full of it). Islam was invented in the confines of a tribal desert society, and all desert societies worldwide employ some kind of head scarf to protect the face and lungs from the heat and dust of their environment. The male-dominated societies in the middle east have simply employed a passage in their scriptures to justify a requirement that women keep it on even when they're NOT in the desert.

Perhaps "imposed" was the wrong word. Brainwashed might be more appropriate. I take a dim view on ANY religious or cultural practice which degrades or demotes any person simply because of their gender. That's not cultural imperialism, it's a recognition of basic human rights. Human rights aren't values to be imposed, they're realities to be respected.

Good God, your title is possibly the most insulting thing I have read here on DU. While we're at it, why don't we just say that all Christians believed in the Crusades, and all American Indians practiced human sacrifice, too? :eyes:



and



Not only are you insulting people who are religious, you are discrediting your entire argument based on your stated anti-religious bias.

If you don't like religion, that's your right. But you do NOT have the right to impose your anti-religionism on anybody else-- just like religionists don't have the right to impose their religion on you.

And once again, HOW is dressing modestly "degrading" anybody? You keep claiming that somehow women are "forced" to dress a certain way-- has it occurred to you that not every woman wants to walk around wearing revealing clothing? Why should your standards on what "liberating" is be the standard the entire world adheres to?

Like I said previously, there are many American born-and-raised Muslim women who CHOOSE to wear hijab. Many of them are professionals (college professors, doctors, lawyers) and are hardly "brainwashed", to use your (insulting) terminology. Nor are they "forced" by our society to wear hijab.

As for your assertion about the "invention" of Islam, 7th CE Mecca was hardly a tribal backwater, as you insist. It was a crossroads for trade, and a thriving city of many thousands of people who practiced many different religions (including Christianity and Judaism as well as many "pagan" religions). The population on the whole was quite urban and cosmopolitan. Tribal dress may have been common in the desert (as necessary by the environment), but not in the larger towns.

Hijab may be forced on some women by domineering males, but to assert that it is forced on ALL women is absolutely ludicrous-- and reeks of cultural elitism, too.

I just recognize that relgious people have an innate bias towards presenting facts that support their position, even if it means supressing large amounts of contradictory information, simply for the sake of preserving their religious worldview. I understand that if I ask a Catholic Irishman and a Protestant Irishman the history of northern Ireland, I'll get two completely different stories. If I ask a Frenchman, on the other hand, I'll probably get a more factual, neutral view. That's not anti-religious or anti-Irish, it's simply an acknowledgement of human nature.

As to Islamic roots in tribalism, I seem to recall that the "cosmopolitan" residents of Mecca threw him out, and his religion didn't really take off until he went to the bedouins and converted them. The followers of his religion were primarily tribalists and pastoralists from the Arabian desert and scrublands when he returned to Mecca, and they no doubt had a heavy influence on many of the customs that formed during this period.

IOW, you descredit the beliefs of anybody who professes a religion, soleley because they MAY be influenced by their religion. Sounds like anti-religious bias by any other name.

FYI: I am not a Muslim, nor have I ever been one. I am a Quaker. However, I have read the Quran several times and am pretty well versed in Islam in general-- as much as one can be without being a Muslim or an academic. Although I'm not Muslim, I can recognize the truths revealed to Muhammad and can respect the beliefs of those who are Muslims.

Muhammad and his followers were forced out of Mecca because his beliefs questioned the very power structure of Meccan society at the time. Islam insisted on the equality of all persons, regardless of caste, class or tribal background. Needless to say, this didn't earn Muhammad any friends among the power elite of Mecca.

He was welcomed into Medina as a wise man and as a neutral third party to mediate their disputes and to provide balance to the current power structure. The bedouins and tribalists you speak of were later converts to Islam who heard the message in Medina and Mecca.

one thing. You keep talking about how so many women choose the hijab. That's fine. But just because some would still choose it doesn't mean it's okay for that to be forced on all women, either through law, or familial pressure, or societal pressure or all of the above. That's when I have a problem with it.

Seriously. What if George Bush (who claims to get his instructions from God) decided one day that all American women must wear a nun's habit (or suit of armor, thong bikini, space suit, etc.) regardless of the weather or what they needed to do or how they felt or what they believed? Imagine those who didn't would face beatings, or be disowned by their families, or even go to jail. So just because some women would CHOOSE to wear a nun's habit (suit of armor, thong bikini, space suit), does that make it okay to force it on all women? Wouldn't it make you just a little bit angry to see women being forced to comply with this rule?

I'm not anti-religion, I'm really not. But I am very much against forced religion, or forced societal codes in the guise of religion. As far as I concerned, everyone is free to believe in whatever God they want...until they start making the rules apply to others whether they like it or not. And yes, I do believe that religion is "imposed" on people of many cultures, not just Muslim. Many families disown children who don't practice the same faith, many countries ostracize and even murder people who believe differently than the majority. I have a problem with that. I'm sorry but I do.

The laws being bandied about in the Netherlands are about making it ILLEGAL to wear hijab-- just the opposite of what you are talking about. These laws are about depriving women of the right to NOT dress in revealing clothing. They are about restricting womens' freedom to practice their religion as they see fit.

It should be the right of these women to wear hijab if they so choose, and not be denied the right to dress as they desire-- as long as it doesn't hurt anybody else.

It's not the Muslims in western Europe imposing their beliefs on non-believers-- it's the non-believers imposing their beliefs on the Muslims.

I'm sorry if I implied that in any way. Yes, I fully agree that women should be able to choose how they want to dress. I just wish there was a way that all women could really be free to make that choice, free from pressure and fear of punishment. Even in America, I don't think it's true or perhaps even possible.

And I think almost everyone (except for some very extreme instances) feel that everybody should be able to dress as they feel most comfortable. And I agree there is cultural pressure in every culture to dress a certain way-- no matter where you are, people have a fear of things that are different from them. Sad but true.

wouldn't you wear one too?

I do see women in burqas regularly.

I live in one of the most diverse cities in the country. So diverse, in fact, that the New York Post calls it "Terror Town."

Just wondering b/c I live here and I know we have a huge ME population. I see burkas sometimes, but not as often as one might think. I see a lot of more modern-style head-coverings.

Also known as:

Chilltown -- popular among hip hop fans
Derty City
The JC
Wall Street West
The Sixth Borough

Burkas, turbans, head scarfs, do rags, baseball caps and "leopard-skin" pillbox hats -- you see everything here. No big deal. I felt sorry for the Muslim women right after 9/11, though, when they were afraid to leave their homes for weeks because of the way they dressed.

:hi: I'm not a native of here and I'm leavin' here in about three months but I fell in love with this damned city. I also like the looks on people's faces when I tell them where I live--most people still think JC is a ghetto wasteland. Altho' they did find a body across the street from my apartment a few months ago... but eh. Wasn't mine! ^___^

and his mother and her father were all born in Jersey City. I escaped and was born in Somerville!

LOL. But when we go north every year we stay in JC at the Hyatt. I still have family there.

Same with men in turbans walking down the street. Hardly noticeable in America.

some middle schoolers wear headcoverings, also.

no harm, no big deal

make my blood boil. The Muslim women wear those head coverings even in the hottest weather. Jewish women wear wigs to cover their hair, so only their husband can view its beauty!!! I especially despise seeing the little boys with their "tsitsis" strings, and side curls, and little girls forced to "cover" their arms and legs with long garments.

I'll be glad when my grandson goes to public school next September.

In peace,

Radio_Lady

I've seen quite a few here in Katy - just outside Houston. Not covering the face, but covering everything else. And there are a lot of women who wear headcoverings. (There is a sizable Muslim community here.)

No harm, no foul.

Having spoken to many women who cover totally..... some women prefer it. They can go about their lives without being constantly sexually objectified by men. I'm not sure I buy that, but a lot of them have said it.

Full cover is cultural. The Koran only requires that women dress modestly and cover their hair. It also requires men to dress modestly but that's a whole nother story....

Khash.

to meet that same standard. That seems unfair. And I suppose that is why many Western women see it as objectification or subjugation. I also think that we Western women had to fight so hard for the freedoms that we have that we tend to get a little bit defensive when we think about women who are REQUIRED to wear the coverings. If you choose to, that is another matter entirely.

However, as far as the argument that it limits women's actual physical freedom - I saw a family of women with face coverings snow tubing over the weekend at a birthday party my son attended. That was cool. It isn't as if the coverings stop people from living their lives.

but if it's a choice.... who am I to make choices for other people?

As far as men go.... when I was in The Middle East, there was group of us who went swimming in the Gulf. All men. All but one of us were either American or European. So we stripped off to our underwear or put on swimming trunks before diving in. Not the one Arab Muslim guy - he went swimming fully clothed! He had to adhere to the modesty thang.

Where I was the women fully covered. And I was appalled. Finally someone told me "It makes them anonymous. Could you recognize one from another? So they have quite a bit of freedom - more than you do! No one can recognize them so they can do anything they want..."

I guess that's partly true... but still. But more and more young women are choosing the burqa even though their mothers fought hard battles against it.


:shrug:

Khash.

both in NYC and in Nashville. I think outlawing the burqa is a pointless step. At a basic level, it really is just a fashion choice. I'm aware of what it symbolizes, but I'd like to see more laws that actually protected women's rights. Such as easy access to birth control, abortion, divorce, education, workplace equality, childcare etc. It's so easy to point and say "look how they oppress women" and not look at the many ways all women are suffering.

Islamic gear with just the eyes showing. Here in San Francisco. Just last week, as a matetr of fact. It was not the light blue we're used to seeing on the women, but black.

while i would never agree to wear a burqa, i would never believe in legislating what a woman can or cannot wear.

We have a very large Somali population in Minneapolis/St. Paul, and most of the women are completely covered. However, most just expose their faces and hands and cover everything else.

Whatever a person wears is her/his personal choice. There are many Muslim women who prefer to wear a burqa. If they're not hurting anybody, I don't see what the big deal is.

many Muslim women at the university wear them. We have a pretty good size Middleastern population.

many Muslim women at the university wear them. We have a pretty good size Middleastern population.

It was black like an abaya (sp?) but had the full screen veil covering the eyes. I've seen a number of women in abayas over the years, usually without any facial veil.

We have people from all over, but any Afghani immigrants would probably not be Taliban-lovers.

I've seen ladies in full robes & head coverings. Some with veiled faces & some not. None of these outfits are the Afghani burqa. Many of these ladies are not immigrants--they are here to visit relatives or to seek medical treatment.

I see many Muslim ladies in modest Western style clothing & headscarves. Some are immigrants or children of immigrants & others are of "American" stock--both black & white. Of course, I remember when American ladies often wore headscarves to cover rollers or ride in convertibles. And some nuns still wear the old-fashioned habits.

Most of the Muslim ladies I know dress just like "Americans." (Whatever that means.)

And I've seen multi-generational Muslim families. Grandma (I think) wears the full robes & veil. Mom wears a headscarf. And the daughter wears anything she likes.

I can't remember what they call it. In Iran, I think it's called a chador.

But for these women, it was the black robes and the head covering, covering the mouth and the forhead. And A couple of women even had some kind of brass plate that hung from the forhead fabric and covered the nose. So essentially, you could only see her her eyes.

I saw lots of women just like this at Duke Medical Center. They were, or their family members were,, patients.

:popcorn:

you can eat popcorn without being seen

Wearing outfits where the body is totally covered and the face is exposed, and I've seen outfits where the eyes are the only exposed part, but never a full burqa.

The school district I work for has a sizable Somali population, and quite a few of the Somali women wear everything from headscarves to full abayas. It's rare to see one with the eyes covered with that stupid little mesh thingie, but every once in awhile, you see one of those too. Some of the girls in our schools dress that way, too, although I can't recall seeing a student in full burkha. I have seen students in the abaya, but with at least part of the face uncovered.

At the time the NJ governor was Christie Todd Whitman. I had to stifle the urge to yell at the top of my lungs, in the middle of the store, "You're in New Jersey! The governor here is a woman! You don't need to wear that here!!"

Lots of the various types of head-scarf, and several with veiled faces.

The near-by town has a significant muslim population - I don't know whether it makes much difference - but these are mainly from Pakistan, rather than the Middle East.

For a while I worked with a woman who wore a head-scarf, and full length dress (don't know if it has a specific name); the last thing that she was was oppressed, given her nature I'd definitely imagine that she chooses to wear it.

Banning it would be insane, to my mind, we have no idea why any given woman wears it. There are genuine problems facing women, so let's not create a load of fake ones to go with them.

it's just part of everyday life I don't know how they wear them in the summer-so hot

:applause:

Every Muslim woman I have been acquainted with that wears hijab does so of her own free will, because she feels empowered when she wears it. Instead of focusing on what she looks like, men focus on what she is saying-- which is how it should be, anyway.

there are three or four families in the area

I do remmeber seeing a group of women dressed in veils and long loose fitting robes when I was little and asking my mother about it. When I learned it was part of their religion, I didn't think anything of it because there was also a sizeable convent in our area with veiled nuns, one of who I took piano lessons from.
I have seen women with Muslim veils and long robes since then in various places since then. I don't think I have seen any with their eyes covered. Such a garment would obviously be an impediment to activites like driving and should be illegal for that. If no one is getting hurt though, there should be no restrictions. Some women might be more comfortable dressing that way. Freedom in dress doesn't mean just showing more of one's body.

They often cover everything except the eyes and hands.

The burqa the Taliban forced women to wear in Afghanistan that covers the eyes is just the product of irrational idiocy. Why would you cover a woman's eyes?

my sister chooses to wear one due to her personal religious beliefs.

The Burqa is the blue beehive keeper-lookin' thing that women in Afghanistan wear.

I've seen the black one (that leaves the face exposed) favored in the Arabian peninsula several times in the Chicagoland area.

They were both in full gear, even their eyes were covered in a dark veil.

Daily.

I lived behind the mosque while I was at university, and there were a few women who did. Considering the relentless sun and the fact that I can get a sunburn under incandescent light, I considered on several occasions joining them.

The ones I see here in Colorado wear something similar, but not exactly like the ones with the screens - the encompassing over-garment, a headscarf and veil, but with the eyes exposed.

I saw a woman wearing on walking through the lobby in Mass General Hospital. I've seen many more women in Arab dress less extreme than the burqua. There are a lot of Arab people in the Greater Boston area, whether living here permanently or passing through our great universities and hospitals. There are also a number of Arab people in the town I live in here. I'm used to seeing them around.

I passed by a lady in a black burqa; I was worried about her because it was very hot - dangerously hot if one was covered in clothing, particularly black clothing.

It even had the netting over her nose and mouth and eyes.

I accidently looked in the eye, and she turned away quickly.

I was encouraged, however, that her husband talked to her quite respectfully, while they were both sitting at a table.

I can affirm people being able to select their own clothing, but I fear that, in light of the recent cheerleading on rightwing religious websites about the return of patriarchy, the effect on our society at large. We are already seeing laws being passed banning abortion outright, the righteing defining birth control as abortion, and 'studies' showing women being happy submitting to their husband at home (rhetoric on rightwing religious websites). I worry about the direction in which our society is headed.

I'm in my 40's and explaining to my daughter how I grew up believing that a career for a woman, in addition to advanced education, was the norm. I don't want the world to change so much that I'm describing something to her she can't possibly understand. I'm happy I live out here in California.

I've also seen Nuns in Wimples and Conservative/Orthodox Jews walking to Temple on Saturday with pretty extensive covering

The Burqa is the farthest you can go it seems.....

I haven't lived there in quite a while, but in Switzerland there are many Muslim immigrants.

but the person wearing it did so for a political statement, not for other reasons.

Otherwise, we do have quite a few women who wear headscarves in my town.