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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-03 09:01 PM
Original message
I'm thinking about starting a martial arts program.
Edited on Sun Aug-03-03 09:15 PM by JanMichael
Mostly for the fitness benefits. I already workout regularly but it might be fun to try something new.

That and it might come in handy in the meltdown:-)

So what type would you recommend?

What is a good basic style?

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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-03 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. you already workout regularly????
yeah, right. (snicker)
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-03 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. grrrrrrrrrrr.
OK, I'm not a sissy biker but yeah, I do!
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-03 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. 16oz curls don't count!
tho i heard shaking martinis builds up your pecs. :)
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-03 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Oh, that hurts.
My liver.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-03 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. hey, have you heard from ShakeyDave?
he catch any grouper?
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-03 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I doubt it. He had 20 family members dropping in.
There's a chance he took out a couple of them I suppose but it's more likely that he's drowned out the noise with a bottle of vodka.

Poor bastard.
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Prisoner_Number_Six Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-03 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. Depends on your goals
Wanna beat up on boards? Tai Kwon Do
Wanna chill? Tai Chi
Wanna kick ass without straining yourself? Aikido
Wanna get serious? Shotokan Karate

and on and on and on...
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-03 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Can't break boards.
Broken 5th metacarpal. Don't ask.

Ass kicking, that's about it.
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Prisoner_Number_Six Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-03 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. I forgot the biggie...
Wanna DANCE? Tai Bo
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-03 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Ha.
Nah. Two Left feet:evilgrin:

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leftist_rebel1569 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-03 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. NO NO NO....If you want dancing,
get yourself a playstation 2, A dance pad, and a copy of DDRMAX....

That'll be a good enough workout for a while, trust me. Did I mention i'm 5'11 and I weigh 125 pounds?
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-03 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
11. Just checked your profile and saw where you lived
Now I'm gonna come around and kick your :kick: . That's how REAL MEN learn to fight......

Nah, seriously (sort of), I might have just the ticket for you. I'll be right back with it or PM you stat.
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-03 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Well that'd suck!
So is my place of residence that much of a loser?
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-03 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
14. KICK!
No pun intended...
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BigMcLargehuge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-03 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
15. Hapkido
If you can find a Hapkido school and would like a practicing stylist to look over the curriculum and tell you whether or not they are teaching the real thing, please feel free to e-mail me with questions.

I have found Hapkido to be both a great physical workout (our school's warm-up lasts 45 minutes) and extremely practical self defense.

Some schools offering Hapkido also teach TaeKwanDo, which is a sport karate variant and the national sport of South Korea, I've heard stories that some schools teach the one-step sparring and self defense techniques of TaeKwonDo as Hapkido.

Hapkido in the US is in a bit of a muddle as Master Mike Wolmerhauser, President of the American Hapkido Association (and founder Choi Yong Sul's only American student) recently succumbed to cancer.

You can view the webpage of the school I attend at www.americanhapkidoacademy.com

Let me know if you would like more information.

Other arts I've studied include:

Kodokan Judo
American (Parker) Kenpo
Aikido
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
44. Cool! And you know who was a big Kenpo dude? Yeah, of course you do!


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BigMcLargehuge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. He was a real big Kenpo dude before he died too... LOL
real big.

Parker taught a lot of noteworthy people including Bruce Lee, David Lee Roth, and z movie star Jeff Speakman
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #15
49. Congrats BigMcLargehuge!! 900 posts
:toast:
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-03 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
16. Kung fu fighting

Everyone will tell you that their style is the 'best.' They're wrong. Mine is. :-)

Really, the urinating contest among various martial arts enthusiasts (typically most obvious in the good old USA, a land that celebrates the ego that traditional martial arts seek to de-emphasize) is pathetic, but it is possible that some styles might be betetr for you than others. Whether they're handily available to you is another story.

Here's a capsule answer to your questions, via my own experience and seen through my own biases.

1. 'Kung Fu' - Chinese martial arts, also known as wushu, various names that include 'Shaolin' or 'sil lum,' and about a billion names given to the styles that have evolved over 4000 years of Chiense history. You can't generalize about Chinese martial arts, because they're just too diverse. However, of the styles that you're likely to see, there tend to be too main divisions - northern and southern Chinese.

You can read about all that on the Web and because this is s'posed to be just a capsule thing, let me just say that most Chinese styles tend to be extremely well-rounded - they tend to have particular fighting techniques and practice, a plethora of traditional weapons (WAY more than any other styles), various forms of meditating and chi-kung or breathing, higher-level emphasis on nerve strikes and other grappling or 'poison hand' techniques (great for self defence), a ton of predetermined routines ('forms') with both empty hand and weapons, and more.

Many Chinese martial arts styles tend to be very mobile, and many emphasize power through sheer speed rather than through muscular strength - the whole 'chi' concept is important here, as it is in most Asian martial arts. Basically, China - the Shaolin temples were sort of like martial universities - begat most (all?) other Asian martial arts that you're likely to see in the US. Yes, this is my favorite, in its multiplicity of styles, simply because it is aesthetically pleasing, has depth such that you could learn it just about forever and still never get all the way there, and because fighting in kung-fu is really the art of Chinese dirty fighting. The weapons are great, too.

So, primary distinguishing characteristic if you're just looking at the style being performed: speed, mobility, and circular movements - kung fu can be exceptionally graceful and is almost always very fluid, but people who think it's all just flowery dancing haven't felt the bite that it's got, much of which consists of hidden nerve attacks and the like. Ow.

2. Tai chi - this is a school (schools, actually) of Chinese martial arts that, along with Hsing-I, Pa Kua, and a few lesser-known styles, form the 'internal' Chinese martial arts. In many schools tai chi is taught in addition to the more rigorous (physically) external styles of 'kung fu.' The principles are basically the same - most fully-realized, traditional Chinese kung fu styles will, at their highest levels, basically become tai chi. And vice-versa for tai chi. The same is true of some other systems, like certain karate styles.

Tai chi is perhaps the ultimate martial art, but it takes a LONG time before it can really be used as such, whereas the less evolved 'external' styles will have you able to have a decent shot at defending yourself in a shorter time. I think with any style, though, you're talking at least three years before you can be confident that you can survive, if not prevail, against the average clueless opponent. Tai chi might not be right for you if you're impatient or want self-defense skills within this decade. :-) It's great for people nagged by injuries and is taught to older people - probably saves their lives. The proportion of people who teach it as a true martial art is low, because most teachers are really only familiar with its superficial benefits, considerable as they may be - improved health, flexibility, balance, etc.

3. Karate - again, this is a diverse grouping of many schools. Karate basically evolved in Okinawa, from techniques taught by Chinese martial artists, and was only exported to Japan in relatively recent times. Some styles are closer to the Chinese form than others - the various styles of kenpo karate, especially (many are almost indistinguishable from southern Chinese kung fu styles), but also styles like certain kinds of Goju-ryu and uechi-ryu - and they tend to have their roots betrayed by being more fluid and softer than the rigid styles that you usually see.

Most karate styles are built around just a subset of a couple of Chinese styles and so they're far shorter, repertoire-wise, and also lack all of the weapons. Most karate weapons are based on farmers' implements and the like, whereas many of the Chinese ones are military. Nunchaku, sai (double daggers), tonfa, and various staffs are typical weapons. Karate styles tend to be far harder - karateka, depending on style, typically don't gain as much power from whipping around the waist and they do tend to rely more on sheer muscular power than on speed. All martial arts will give you a good workout, but some karate styles will leave you as just a blob, totally wiped out.

What these dudes lack in fluidity, at least compared to kung fu, they tend to make up for with power. Say a Chines martial artist knows 51 techniques that'll exploit an opening of a particular kind....well, a karateka might know basically two or three. The difference is, though, that they practice those few techniques to the point of exhaustion and if you're on the wrong end of one, you're in trouble. Most Chinese drills are as much or more about concept than the actual technique, because so many techniques can be applied, but with certain karate styles it's front kick and reverse punch and that's about it. over and over and over again. And, boy, a Chinese fighter might be able to angle more effectively and bop in and out of range, but if they connect with a good solid karate punch or kick, they're likely to be hurting. Been there, done that. And I've been the karateka, too. Also, in modern tournament fighting and the like, karate fighters (and TKD fighters, and many Chinese fighters) will, in practice, often addopt a sort of boxing stance and use jabs and a couple of kicks....sometimes they're more mobile than their actual style calls for in those situations.

So, if its possible to generalize, karate offers power in a limited number of trusty techniques, and fewer weapons. It does tend to be more available than Chinese stuff, though most of what's sold as 'karate' in the US is actually TKD or some other Korean style. I believe that Japanese styles tend to be more rigid, physically, than the closer-to-Chinese Okinawan styles, and - like I said - some schools of kenpo almost ARE kung fu. If you're in a really hard-core traditionalists' school expect rigid discipline, too - kung fu and tai chi schools tend to be far more relaxed.

4. Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, etc - I've never done hapkido, but I do know that it's a style that heavily emphasizes kicking (lots of high kicks) and also has a lot of grappling, that's good stuff. Ditto Kuk Sul Won and some of the other more obscure Korean styles. TKD is the biggie and it's very popular - an Olympic sport, no less. I'll give it short shrift here, though, because TKD has evolved almost totally to a martial sport.

TKD was formed in 1945, I think, by the recently-departed General Choi, and was based largely on Shotokan karate. Like the Japanese styles, it has few forms (those prearranged routines) and I don't know that it has any weapons at all. It's also relatively rigid, though tends to be far more loose than many karate styles and significantly more mobile, with a higher stance. TKD is basically all about kicking, and really about high kicking. High kicking is good exercise and good for flexibility, but it's worse than useless for street fighting, at least under most conditions - very dangerous. Further, the tournament-oriented nature of most American TKD - I think it's become more so in the last couple of decades - has TKD fighters doing stuff like coming out almost backwards toward their opponent (the back's an illegal target in TKD matches - it isn't in some kung fu tournaments) and that's a really good way to ensure that you're swiftly killed or crippled on the street. TKD guys who're good at TKD have exceptional kicks, though some teachers train their kickers to kick in manners that do a lot of damage to the body. Get kicked by a TKD person and you know you've been kicked. Typically, though, their hands are almost useless. A major failing.

Bottom line: for sport, sure, but there are better options for self-defense and also if you're interested in forms (and certainly weapons). Because TKD is so hugely popular it does tend to be ripe ground for fly-by-nighters, too, so watch out. And, like I said, most American 'karate' schools are TKD, Tang Soo Do, or some electic 'modern American' variant thereof. By the way, some of these eclectic 'modern' styles may be fine - it's a caveat emptor thing.

5. Aikido - I've never done this one, but it seems liek agreat one. Lots of grappling and throws, and a very chi-based energy that makes it probably the closest major martial art system to tai chi. Founded by a little Japanese guy earlier last Century - it's not an old art, but it's based on some older things from the time of the Samurai (and, I think, some Chinese influence). I'd unhesitatingly urge you to check it out, at least. Lots of flowing, lots of 'soft' moves, and lots of good things in store for your body (repetitive falling can be a problem, though, but a good teacher will minimize such troubles). The end result is that the bad guy ends up on the floor without quite knowing how he got there, perhaps with you lovingly threatening his shoulder with dislocation. Cool.

6. Ju-jitsu, judo - Ju-jitsu was based on samurai stuff, too, and influenced by Chinese styles heavy on grappling. It's really brutal - talk about dirty fighting. There're several schools, including a tai-chi-ish one, but the one that everyone's talking about these past few years is 'Brazilian ju-jitsu.' They focus a lot on ground fighting, a good skill to have, but they've completely turned me off by their posing and the challenges that they've issued (these are the hairy-chested guys behind the 'Ultimate Fighting Challenge'). Call me bound in tradition, but doing pro-wrestling type shouting about how great you are and how you're going to put whoever in the hospital is NOT what martial arts should be about. It sickens me - once again, Americans (and Brazilians, who're US based and just doing it the A,merican Way) have f***ed up another good thing. They're good at marketing, though, and they know what Americans want - blood and bluster. Sure, it may be effective as a martial art, but don't buy into that egomaniacal crap that they want to sell you along with it. Also remember that there are traditional Japanese schools of ju-jitsu out there still, too.

Judo is another martial sport, basically a less brutal version of ju-jitsu. It can still be effective on the street and is great conditioning - it'd certainly be a good martial starting point, especially for children.

7. Mixed martial arts and the like - most are undeniably a fast-track to self-defense skill, but many lose the values that I treasure about martial arts, including the philosophies associated. Martial arts, traditionally, have been about survival but they have ultimate NOT been about fighting and killing, in the long run. Certainly not today - the gun has effectively made all traditional martial arts, and certainly the weapons, obsolete as self-defense systems. That's not entirely true, of course, but what is true is that someone who's only fired a gun once in their life can easily take out a martial artist who's trained hard for 30 years. There's way more to martial arts than that. And, sure, encounters with less dramatic weapons, or with no weapons, happen often, so unarmed self-defense is still valuable.

My attitude toward most American 'Mixed Martial Arts' is the same as that toward Brazilian ju-jitsu, because most are the spawn of the Ultimate Fighting Challenge and, basically, their ugly attitudes suck. They may be tough fighters, but they missed the point of martial arts, not that they care.

One exception, and there are a few, is an eclectic Israeli style called Krav Maga - very trendy now (the Terminator 3 babe trained in it for the film) and great for self-defense. It basically borrows from all sorts of traditional styles (heavy on the southern Chinese), and simplifies it all for the street to take advantage of natural human reaction. This style also includes firearms training - it's basically a Special Forces kind of regimen.

Anyway, that's more than enough about all that. How about your 'hood? well, I was hoping to find a branch of a certain superlative kung fu school there, but no luck yet. here's what I've found so far. I can't vouch for these, but they would be worth checking. Bottom line is that ALL martial arts have worth, if taught by a good teacher, but some are inherently more 'complete' than others and some are particularly strong for certain aspects of what martial arts are or for certain people (build, history of injury, etc). Check them out, anyway:

Sarasota Aikikai Aikido
2105 12th St
Sarasota, FL 34237-2703
941-365-6366

Sarasota Shaolin Academy
2260 Whitfield Park Dr # J19
Sarasota, FL 34243-5412
941-954-2236
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BigMcLargehuge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-03 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. About Hapkido
actually, Hapkido and Aikido are brother and sister and both spring from the same Japanese school of Dante Ryo Akijuijitsu (SP?) the founders of both styles studied together. Both styles emphasize circular redirection and joint manipulation over punching and kicking.

Although modern adaptations of Hapkido have incorporated some of TaeKwonDo's kicking, the emphasis of the style is on redirection and manipulation.
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-03 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Hang out here and you learn all sorts of stuff!
I remember reading about that now that you mention it, though I don't recall the bit about them basically adopting some of TKD's kicks. The grappling aspect is really key, I think, to good self-defense - it's a pity that the originators of TKD didn't decide to do something more useful with their hands.
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BigMcLargehuge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-03 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Well, TKD was developed as sport
To me its the same as wishing they'd though more about good tackle defense in baseball.
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-03 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I think baseball could be improved by that, though
They should allow tackling. And maybe Uzis.
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BigMcLargehuge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. A shame abner doubleday didn't have access to modern weaponry
I admit to liking baseball in a live setting. However, being stuck in front of the TV or having to listen to people discuss it makes me wish for a nice Nomar Garciaparra homer swing right to the cranium.

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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. I feel your pain
You think landmines under the bases would be a bit much? I mean, you could place them in a random pattern, so the players would never be sure...... Make them EARN those millions, dude!
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-03 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. P.S., dude

That kung fu school that I was hoping to find is Wah Lum praying manbtis - the grandmaster (based in Orlando) is one of the best of the best, and he has a school in Tampa. I don't know how dedicated or desperate you're likely to get, but if that commute begins feeling like it'd be worth it to you, here's the info:

TOM HAASE
3217 S. MacDill Ave.
Tampa, FL. 33629
(813) 875-6177

Here's the grandmaster, Chan Poi - an inspiration, he is (I think he's in his 70s)

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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-03 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Very informative, question:
Is it in bad form to challenge a prospective teacher to a fight? Because before I begin learning under a master, I'd want to know that he could kick my ass up and down the street before handing over money. Like you pointed out, tournaments aren't street fighting, I'd want to see his adaptability first hand (or fist) .
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BigMcLargehuge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-03 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Er... AKA How not to get into a Martial Arts Program
This might have been acceptible in, oh, I don't know... the 1300s...

But it is extremely disrespectful to go to a school and challenge anyone, especially if you want to study there. Assume (which is not so far from reality) that the instructor beats the ever loving shit out of you, it puts him in a position to be sued. More immediately, any instructor worth his training won't agree to train you after such an episode.

99.999% of instructors will happily let you observe or participate in a limited number of classes for free and with no committment. There are also zillions of web resources about any number of martial arts styles. Research, observe, participate, those are the three keys to finding a school that fits your Martial Arts goals.

Challenging the instructor is a one way ticket to:

A: Jail
B: Blacklisting (Instructors from different schools DO talk to one another)
C: The emergency room
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-03-03 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Um, yes, very bad form
You hear stories about how it used to happen in ancient China, and I have heard stories from the mdoern day but, basically, it's not a good idea to challenge anyone.

Besides, it's conceivable that you COULD beat the teacher - everyone has a bad day, and novices are infamously hard to fight because they're free of being entrained into a certain way of moving and responding....very unpredictable. The key is, as far as fighting's concerned, to find a teacher who can make YOU a good fighter, regardless of how good he or she may be. The two don't necessarily relate.

There's another factor. Certianly in kung fu - and a lot of the Mixed Martial Arts type jeer at this claim - the really key techniques ARE too lethal for tournament use. They just are - for example, certain nerve strikes and certainly things like attacking the throat or the vertebral arteries (nothing 'mystical' about that) can fairly easily make someone rapidly dead. I don't think that a challenged martial artist who's capable of lethal techniues - and many are easily done with barely any training - is going to pull them out to make a point. Also, it's traditionally been the case that you'd really have to prevail against a good teacher before he or she pulls out the juicier, higher-level techniques - these sorts of things have tended to be jealously guarded. You never show them your best stuff until you have to.
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private_ryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #19
37. chances are that he is NOT gonna accept
the challenge and if you sign up with him you'll feel like a fool once you realize how much better than you he is.

The best is to find a school that teaches all that: Brazilian JJ (ground work), boxing /kickboxing, some hapkido (mostly joint locks) and street stuff /dirty tricks.

No one art is complete and you need to borrow from all in order to be ready. You can be the greatest boxer in the world only to be kicked in the ribs or leg while you expect a jab.
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Enraged_Ape Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #16
29. EXCELLENT summary, my friend
And may I just throw in my two cents: Rather than concentrate on style or school, focus on the teacher him/herself. Take some introductory lessons (which are almost always free; if not, move along, as they will nickle-and-dime you to death) and if you like what you're learning, if you like what the more advanced students are doing, and if you like the instructor, go for it.
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #29
45. Good points! The instructor i s paramount, as is the case with
just about anything that you learn. Remember the bad guy from "Karate Kid"? They ARE out there.

On the financial side, yep, everyone worthy of your custom is going to offer you a free lesson (perhaps more than one). Make the most of it, and preced it by I "I'd just like to watch" visit (or more than one). A decent instructor will welcome you. And some schools will try to sell you a 'contract' for such-and-such a period of time. They know they'll profit because of attrition rate; this seems particularly common among the basic minimall TKD schools that cover the USA. Avoid it, but if everything seems great otherwise, well, that's your decision to make.

Finally martial arts instruction - and this is sometimes a problem in the US because of attitudes - is not and should not be a case of you paying some dude to do a service for you. The relationships among students and between students and teacher(s) are - in traditional arts - deeply imbued with mutual respect and are essentially based in another culture's social traditions. You pay the instructor but this not a work-for-hire deal. And most martial arts instructors do not make much of aprofit on the deal - they do it because they love it, because they want to pass it on, and because it allows them to keep in shape, keep up their own training, and to learn from their students.
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
43. A good word for taekwondo....
and Forrest, my friend, that was for the most part a very good summary. And I agree with you about General Choi's style as well - he learned martial arts under the Japanese occupation, and, no surprise, it was shotokan since indigenous martial art practice was banned. Side-note - so was teaching school in Korean; my mother-in-law taught high school, refused to teach in Japanese, and came very close to being hauled off to be a 'comfort woman'. Anyway, when in the Peace Corps many long years ago I worked out every morning in my small district seat's one-and-only martial arts gym - and mind you, this was the early 70's; I had no idea what this stuff was, only that it looked like a good workout. Anyway, they taught one of the more common styles at the time, MooDukKwan. We used the pal gye forms through the colored belts, which, being built on the eight trigrams, are eight kata. Then from chodan on up there're probably a dozen more forms, and you're expected to study some other styles at some point as well. We did very little weapons work until after second dan, then some knife, sword, and staff work. It was a damn good workout, and used hands, arms, shoulders at least as much as feet. I agree, american taekwondo does go for the flashy a lot more than my gym back then ever did. Later I studied in a gym in Minneapolis, the Northwest Taekwondo Assoc., run by,ummmmm, Master Ro - forget his first name. Anyway, his style of TKD was SongMooKwon, a style which his father had originated in North Korea during the Japanese occupation. It incorporated more of what we think of as Chinese circular movements, and he taught, let's see, about 24 forms to the color belts - all the pal gyes, the tae gooks, and a set his father had developed. Weapons were staff and manchurian broadsword, full forms taught beginning with mid-level first dan.

One other interesting martial art I haven't seen mentioned is the filipino escrima style, which offers a very effective and (potentially) inconspicuous weapon, sticks about the length of your forearm or a little longer.
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Thanks!
Yeah, that's true - TKD isn't just ONE style (are Tang Soo Do and Moo Duk Kwan considered sub-styles under the TKD umbrella or does it depend who you ask?) and there has historically been a battle between two main divisions (ITF and WTF) for supremacy. I think the WTF, that's more sport-oriented, won the Olympic bid.....not sure, because I threw my hands up at the politics of it many years ago. ITF and WTF have different forms, too. Actually, I think WTF was backed by the South Korean government, so perhaps that would account for their getting the Olympics (if they, indeed, did).

Anyway, some TKD is less oriented (no pun intended) toward tournaments. I've done a bit of tang doo do and a bit more of ITF TKD and found that tang soo do was far more reminiscent of Shotokan.

And yeah, kali/escrima and Indonesian pentchak silat can be great styles for fighting. I haven't done any, though I've used double sticks in a kung-fu context. They're not the kind of styles that are very available, though, in most areas.
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #46
51. Well, just my impression, but
it seemed to me when I was in Korea that there was a fair amount of competition between the various kwans. MooDukKwan and ChungDokKwan were the biggest at the time, although I'm likely forgetting the others. In the early 70's the kwans were brought together under an umbrella organization, the Korean TaeKwonDo Association. I was like an ee gyup at the time, red belt, so some of the palgye forms got rearranged - number 6 or 7 became #4, and so on. We did no tourneys, and there were no trophys in the little gym - it was just about a workout and learning a martial art. Some of those guys did not pull punches, either. One time when I was a red belt, i was sparring with a blue belt - nice kid, about 19, who worked all day in his father's grain store hefting heavy sacks. You get the idea. Anyway, he got through to my ribs with a nice side kick that really smarted. I went 'oof', and kept on sparring. It really ached for a coupla weeks - nasty bruise, I figured. Next time I went up to Seoul for my annual Peace Corps physical, they did the usual chest x-ray (because I was a TB control worker), and said, hey, how did your rib get broken? Ooooof!

Hapkido was alive and healthy, and there was judo as well, but I don't recall seeing any Tang Soo Do gyms. By the way, interesting trivia - the Chinese characters for Tang Soo Do and Kara Te Do are the same....pronunciation really changes over a thousand miles or so, eh? Anyway, in the mid-80's, one of my sparring partners was a TangSooDo eedan - he had studied in LA, and his gym was associated in some way with, ummm, whatsisname, the Texas Ranger guy who sparred Bruce Lee in the movie. You know who I mean. But from what I hear from Korea, the big style there nowadays is KookSoolWon, about which I know next to nothing.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
27. what about...... Gymkata!?!?
http://www.teleport-city.com/movies/reviews/kungfu/gymkata.html



The action revolves around 1984 Olympic Gold Medal Gymnast Kurt Thomas. He plays a gymnast (wow!), in much the same way that 1984 Olympic Gold Medal Gymnast Mitch Gaylord played a gymnast in his one and only film (that I know of), American Anthem. Now if you want to see a bad gymnastics movie, there's your dinner. Man, did it ever suck a monkey's red ass. Anyway, the government recruits 1984 Olympic Gold Medal Gymnast Kurt Thomas to compete in a deadly game where the price of failure could be your life. The nations of the world each send their best athletes to the small mountain nation of Kabrastan or some such fake place populated by people who are vaguely Arabic, vaguely Nepalese, vaguely Tibetan, and, well, at least a little bit Australian since Richard Norton is among them....
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BigMcLargehuge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Yakmala!!!!!!
Wow was this movie bad... I mean, if they knew he was going to be doing all those gymnastic moves, why didn't the villans take all the freshly rosined equipment out of the course?

A pollem horse in the middle of the crazy village.... You know how much mental people just LOVE to keep their pommel horse skills up.
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ACK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
30. Muay Thai
Listen, Tae Kwon Do and many other programs suck you into this muther of all rip-off schedules of belt-ranking and examinations at about $50 bucks a pop every time they are short of money (sorry, I meant when you are ready to advance).

Anway, if you want a helluva work-out program, Muay Thai will work you up and down. A lot of bag work like boxing and lots of kicking without a lot of wild gymnastics nonsense.

I have never in my whole frickin' life had a work out that thorough and hard. I worked on a farm, did landscaping work, and even played football at my very small high school. Nothing was as completely tired and satisfying as the workout I got doing Muay Thai.
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NYYFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
31. I recommend Tae Kwon Do
I've been in it for almost a year, and it's the best thing I've ever done in my life. I started off just to lose weight. Now, I'm going all the way to Black Belt.I'm in better shape now than I've been in several years.

Some pointers:
* Look around for schools in which ever area of martial arts you choose.Do your homework- check into their contract systems and exit clauses.

* Visit the schools and watch a class

* Take Advantage of trial lessons/periods if possible to make sure you really do want to do it and invest time/money.

* Like everything else worth doing, you have to have the desire to follow through. Hence the trial period, and getting into a routine.

Good luck- and let me know if you have any questions. :hi:
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TXlib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
32. kick
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BigMcLargehuge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. block, counterpunch
KYA!!!
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KAZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
34. How about some links?
My vote is Hapkido, which should mean nothing to you since most everyone will vote for their current art. Your age and body type will have a lot to do with your decision. I'm 42, and 160#, so Hapkido is a good fit. Just make sure you check out the schools and instructors first. Having an instructor you like will make all the diferrence. Forrest's synopsis above should help you a lot.

Some of my favorite links.

http://www.budoseek.net/
http://www.karatekorner.com/
http://www.koreahapkidofederation.com/
http://www.planetjubei.com/mazone/ - lots of info/ a bit rowdy
http://www.defend.net/ - a little more rowdy
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-05-03 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #34
50. Congrats KAZ!! 400 posts
:toast:
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private_ryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
35. None the arts described in the responses matches Muay Thai
It's boxing with lethal kicks, elbows and knees. Hard to find a pure school though but most modern fighting school teach elements of it.

No Kung Fu or Aikido /Hapkido guy can go toe to toe with a Muay Thai guy (with similar experience on their art). The Muay Thai kicks and punches are not "I touched you" kicks -- they'll knock your ass on the ground and you might need a cane or crutches.
http://www.k-1gp.net/

http://www.k-1gp.net/
if the guy who's attacking you is clueless you might get away with all of them but if the guy knows what he's doing, you're screwed. You don't an Aikido guy fighting on no holds barred matches...

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&q=muay+thai
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ForrestGump Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #35
48. Thai boxing lacks
some of the things that people come to martial arts for - weapons and forms being biggies (as far as I know) - but they do produce tough fighters. Like some karate styles, they train their dudes up to be great at a very limited repertoire of attacks, and they train them to kick hard. Use a lot of shins, knees, and elbows in attack. Ouch. I've been kicked by someone who trained in muay thai and it was not pleasant. The various attacks aren't totally endemic to muay thai, but they focus on them and use them to their fullest.

Put people from different styles together, who are of similar level, and there's no telling who would win a real fight, especially if there really were no rules even implied and it actually was a struggle for life. So I wouldn't say they're the ultimate infallible martial force, but muay thai guys are training to give and take extremes of punishment that few modern martial arts even begin to match.

And they get to wear cool shorts.
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Superfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
36. Brazillian Jui Jitsu
I've practiced Kali Silat in the past, and from a purely utilitarian standpoint, BJJ is easier to learn and far more effective if you ever actually have to use it.

BJJ is very flexibility, speed, and agility oriented. It is probably the most "street-ready" martial art around except maybe Krav Maga.

I would equate BJJ to collegiate wrestling with an edge. If you've ever wrestled, you know how much strength and agility you need to go the distance.

Check it out! Especially the Gracie methodology.

Brian
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private_ryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. and how would you use that in a crowded bar?
or concrete floor? It's good to know if the guy takes you down or if he's better at standup but if I had to learn only one, BJJ would not be that one.

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Superfly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Any martial art will not help you in a crowded bar
in that case, you might want to practice the art of "broken-bottle" or "bar-chair".

The odds of winning a fight when your opponent's buddy shows up are very slim.

I'm sorry, it takes years to become a Kung Fu stylist to the point of being effective. It takes about 1 week in BJJ where you can defend yourself.

Yes, I would still recommend BJJ. (and not all BJJ fights end up on the ground)

B
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private_ryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. "The odds of winning a fight when your opponent's buddy shows up are very"
slim".

it all depends how many they are, what they know and what you know. Obviously the more and the better they are, worse it is for you.

Personally I'm suggesting Muay Thai not Kung Fu, but even in Kung Fu it will not take years to learn how to kick. Personally I rather let my legs do the talking :), you keep him far away and if the kick fails you have everything else still available.

If not all BJJ fights end up on the floor 98% of them do then. It's a ground fighting art and no one denies it.
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hotphlash Donating Member (534 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
40. Check out a United Studios of Self Defense
It's Chinese Kenpo. It gives you the best mix of martial arts, a great workout, and a good solid technique.
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Snow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-04-03 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
42. That's like which fruit is best, or which chocolate....
It very much depends on you and what you like doing. Eventually, they all converge, and you're most likely young enough that you could get to that point (ie, about a second or third dan). Probably the main divisions are tournament/competition oriented gyms, self-defense oriented gyms, very tradition oriented gyms, and exercise or meditation oriented gyms. I don't name styles because often within the same style (for instance, taekwondo or kenpo) you can find all of the above. There's also some differences in what's emphasized - hand vs foot techniques, hard vs soft blocks, blows vs grappling and throws. Go take a look, see what the teachers' styles are (are they military, ancient philisophers, coaches), and choose what you like....feel free to ask us for advice, and to admit a mistake and switch if need be. Good luck!
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