Let's talk about gender here. What makes you one sex or the other?

:crazy:

I'll be honest: I don't get gender. It's, after all, not always--or even usually--a straightforward thing, either psychologically/socially or biologically. What makes a man a man or a woman a woman? You could say sex chromosomes--XX for a female or XY for a male--but nature sometimes laughs at you; there are XX individuals with a male appearance, XY individuals with a female appearance, and individuals who chromosomally are neither, being XXX or some other odd combination. In biology nowadays they teach you that the SRY gene on the Y chromosome is what causes physical gender (maleness--it jumpstarts testosterone), and that when that gene fails to turn on, an XY individual doesn't develop into a male, and when that gene gets fucked up and transferred to an X in meiosis, an XX individual develops into a male. That doesn't happen too often, but it does occur, and there are all sorts of other biological pitfalls/complications.

Okay, so physically it's pretty complicated. What about the social/psychological stuff? Clearly there can be a large dichotomy between physical and psychological gender, or else there wouldn't be transgendered individuals; again, nature gives you the big middle finger. There are absolutely ridiculous social constructs involving gender, as anyone with half a brain knows; this foolish stereotyping of women as weak things good for being baby incubators is a dumb as stereotyping men as "providers" and "breadwinners." I've known women who were Stepford Wives and women who could kick anyone's ass, regardless of gender; I've known men with way overblown superiority complexes and men who loved to cook and clean and other such things. Quite frankly, society fails miserably at honestly defining "man" and "woman," though it does a great con job on far too many men and women as to what their "roles" are.

You can't even look to sexuality to tell you what the deal with gender is. Sure, a lot of men like women, and a lot of women like men, but there are men who like men, women who like women, and members of either sex who have no preference (in that either they just don't want sex or in that they'll be attracted to either a man or a woman). Children can only be conceived naturally through male-female vaginal intercourse, which some would say promotes heterosexuality as the "norm," but homosexuality and bisexuality have existed for thousands of years in humans, and I think science is starting to show that other species also have "shades" of sexuality and gender relations. Hell, some species have no gender at all, or have individuals who are, biologically, both genders at the same time!

Clearly nature "dropped the ball" on gender, if neither biology nor man nor any individual species in general can get it right and honestly define what gender means. I'm far from being a scientist or a biology expert in any sort of capacity, but it seems to me that nature doesn't give a shit about what any species "thinks" or "feels." Nature/evolution/whatever does what makes sense for the propagation of the species and the planet as a whole, meaning that, yes, sometimes what's best for the species is for it to end. But even saying "nature does this" and "nature does that" is something of a fallacy, because as far as any human can provably determine, there is no central power making these decisions, no guy moving all the species around on a giant chessboard and saying, "Okay, apes, time for you to walk upright." "Nature" isn't so much an entity as it is an immensely complicated system of actions and reactions, adapting, changing.

So then is gender of nature? Is it purely a human construct?

Raw sex and sexuality is not at all of human making; every species propagates in some way, whether sexually or asexually or a combination of both or even some odd "third" function. A penis, a vagina, a breast, a testicle--humans did not make these. That was "nature," whatever the hell that means. "Nature" is not perfect--it is a process, and that is all, not something all-pervading and all-knowing. Like all processes, it is complicated, swirling, made up of infinite little steps that must enact perfectly. Very frequently, these little infintestimate bits go off without a hitch, but sometimes it hits some snag, something goes awry, and wham! a dichotomy is created.

"Gender" is more vague and wishy-washy than "sex," and while also of nature, it has been considerably influenced by humans. Gender takes into account not only your "naughty bits," your hormones, and your chromosomes (which in themselves, as discussed above, can already have some conflict with one another), but also throws in all sorts of psychological stuff, both biological and social, all your instincts, all your social conditionings, everything. No wonder gender is such a slippery bastard--all those discrete parts well able to contradict one another! Confusing enough for "lower" animal forms, but downright ridiculous in us oh-so-evolved humans.

I think, overall, that gender can be extremely misleading and downright foolish at times. I'm biologically female and, pyschologically, I've never felt the desire to be a male, but I don't revere womanhood and demonize manhood, because I know that I don't necessarily feel like a part of either, just as so many individuals less sure of their sex and/or gender feel. I identify with menstruation, frigging breasts, the so-called "complexity" of women, but I largely don't identify with lusting after males (or other women) or any other socially traditional female things. I laugh at men and am not able to fathom anything physiologically male, but I'm "stoic" in the traditional male way and I get many socially traditional male things, such as sports, open-mouthed-ness, etc.

I'd like to eventually be able to transcend gender, or to become the best of both worlds. To generalize completely and unfairly, I'd like to be emotionally "rich" like a woman, able to care for another like a woman, but technically/intellectually sensible like a man, speak my mind like a man, and avoid the foolish pratfalls of both genders.

I'd just like to be human, please.

NT

Sex is nature. Gender is what society says. Both can be fucked up in themselves. Trying to reconcile the two can be damn near impossible. The only thing I can say is to let neither stop you.

...but what society says is what is "feminine" "masculine" and "good/bad". That's why different cultures have different gender roles and value expectations. And it's why its folly to think that gender has hardwired values that are universal.

In Western cultures, for example, dainty and thin women are usually associated with being feminine and pure. Which is why value systems based soley on western culture is, well, myopic and often dumb :)

I don't think I've ever heard it summed up better. :)

It's important that you hear my words on the matter, you know.

Or does that make me a sexist pig?

:rofl:

:hide:

:P :P

:hi:

But I am silly :P

Hope you're having a good Saturday.

Tomorrow's going to have hell to pay (homework), but c'est la vie.

Duh.

:eyes:




:D
:hide:

:scared:

So nyah.

:P :P

Equality, to me, is not about men and women being the same but about having the same opportunities and the freedom to make our own choices. If that means being "complex" or "stoic" or liking shoes or power tools or having a career or staying home with one's children, that's cool with me.

As for - "I'd like to be emotionally "rich" like a woman, able to care for another like a woman, but technically/intellectually sensible like a man, speak my mind like a man, and avoid the foolish pratfalls of both genders" - why can't you? Quite frankly, I think that's a pretty fair description of me. :shrug:

Maybe I'm just preaching to the choir here--though I'm not even trying to preach--but I'm just trying to open discussion on the sex/gender dichotomy (and no, I don't think it's just semantics) and on how much either sex or gender should have an impact in our lives. I can't help but menstruate, most unfortunately, but I'll be damned if I'm going to be a "woman" in any so-called "traditional" way, especially when said way makes no logical sense.

:hi:

and you can't rely on the birds to explain it (they are not XY, but ZW instead), or the bees (they are X0, not XY)

:crazy:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-determination_system

How foolish!

:D

I think that nature is experimenting, as it always does.

And some groups of people are extremely uncomfortable about it and themselves and their functionality.

There is credence to spiritual concepts regarding sexual desire, however. There is no satisfying desire once it's really going. Extremes in anything are dangerous.

But regarding gender, who cares so long as you're happy and not hurting anyone else?

Always changing, always doing something new.

But regarding gender, who cares so long as you're happy and not hurting anyone else?

:thumbsup:

Most things about us are chemical (well, all things one could say) - and how those mix during the building process define how they react in the final release. We can tweak such things, and there are obviously variances on it, but overall there are subtle differences internally (other than our organs/etc) which influence how we interact with the same events.

Add into that cultural learnings as we grow (when we are babies our brains, experiences, etc are smaller - so growth is meant both physically here and intellectually).

Men have had to be less nurturing over the millenniums than women - women gave birth to innocent creatures and cared for them while men went out killing innocent things like animals (and other people) to insure the woman could be safe to do her job (yes, this is overly simplistic and general).

As our world has shifted to one where we don't have to hunt and kill men and womens roles are moving more together - we have the things we need more readily so the woman is pursuing more things away from her old role and men are moving away from the killing and being gone for long stretches on hunts/wars (well...except Iraq).

Both sexes were held into place by how things used to work, now that they are free from those bonds they have pushed away from the walls of the room to the center to work together for a common goal in a more common manner - wants are more easily realized because needs are now more easily met.

We ARE becoming more of a generic species in that sense, and roles are now more about choices and tradition than necessity.

It is not always easy to give up though thousands of years of ingrained behavior though :)

Unfortunately, wishing for that is all too often like wishing to find a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. Maybe just maybe sexism made sense 2,000 years ago, but there's no reason for it to occur now other than sheer demented "sentimentality," and I wish people would get with the program.

and penis combination.

and no vagina.

:rofl::rofl:

:hi:

it has been my experience that, for the most part, humans suck x(

:)

hit me with your best shot:P

and while your at it...how about commenting on my pic threads :hi:

Oh - and yeah, some humans do suck - and they usually make good partners in bed :rofl:

some suck, others blow ;)

:rofl:

had identified seven different genders on Earth, but Earthlings were aware of only two because of their inability to see beyond the obvious.

I learned from Vonnegut and others that "normal" is a fairly useless construct of those who need arbitrary concepts to help them justify themselves.

to these questions. Not perfect, but recommended.

i would say the only reason we care about "gender" is because of all the prejudice we have to put up with as a result of society's ideas about "gender" -- or in many cases, such as expressed in the next to last paragraph of your post, because we are actually prejudiced against our own genders

as far as people who think men are "technically/intellectually sensible," well, that is funny, only a tiny percentage of people fall into that category, you know, he tarzon, you jane, he must know how to repair computers? good luck on that one, i know plenty of technically and intellectually useless males

why would i want to be "able to care for another like a woman," shoot me now, let somebody else be the damn nursemaid, it shouldn't be assumed that because i've got hooters i want some nasty baby sucking at them -- you may not like the kind of woman i am when i say that, but i am still just as genuinely female as any other woman -- we're all different on the inside, and people who think all women are this way, or all men are that way, are bigots

gender wouldn't matter if we respected people as individuals

I used to wonder why there were ONLY 2 kinds of people...Male and female.

No gender threads. Read the Forum Rules.

No, wait--never mind.