I'm out of here...

until after the Democratic Presidential Nomination is over next year. I am just so sick and tired of all the Dean Bashing and calling him a liar. It almost makes me hope Bush wins in 2004 so y'all can get another four years of a real liar instead of the one you think Dean is.

I thought I could handle it, but I guess I'm just a stupid little wuss who really can't handle it at all.

Sorry if I insulted or hurt anyone. The DU is the best forum in the whole world, and I will miss y'all so very very very much,





Dave <Amystrange@AmyStrange.com>
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

There is a subset of people who may or may not be "subtle disruptors" who bash Dean because he scares the hell out of the GOP. I just got out of the Utica/Rome (NY) Meetup, and that was the general consensus from the active DU'ers I met there.

Have patience. Please.

Great Meetup was it not? :-)

is the one repukes WANT to run against.

the truth about whom he wants to run against?

Ignore that crap. It's disinformation...or maybe dis-disinformation...or maybe...etc. Not worth even thinking about.
Anyway, even if (for some insane reason) you believe Rove on this topic, why should you trust even the HONEST judgment of a twisted little pig like him about who's a tough candidate?

If you participate on a political website, you're going to have to be able to fight some battles and accept that everyone is not going to agree with you or your candidate.

It can be frustrating if you take things personally, but it's a fact of life.

Good luck whatever you decide to do.

He's got lots of supporters here.

Opinions are like a-holes, everybody has one.

Take a break and come on back.

i am brand new here, and this is one of the first messages i have read. i really hope the dean bandwagon can keep its momentum. this is the first leader to come out of the party for 2004 and he needs our support.

Glad you're here mate. Stop by the Lounge sometime, prop up your feet and have a cold version of whatever it is you partake of. And don't be shy about speaking up, the more varied opinions we can get here the more Democratic we really are :)

:beer:

Welcome, I hope you like it here.

I'm supporting Dean against Bush.

I think he can do it.

Don't get put off by the ruckus here lots of people
are very wrapped up in the candidate they like
best or think can beat Bush or match their own
ideas the best.

I have follow many loser but Dean is a winner.

It is his nomination to loss but if he sets his
sights on Bush and keeps out of the mud with the
others, he will do it.

Great first post! :toast:

welcome... and believe me we've got TONS of momentum :)

Welcome to DU!
:dem:

He's the popular runner here at DU, of course thier will be dissent. I prefer a more liberal candidate, but would vote for Dean (hell I love Vermont).

And take Trolls into consideration, Dean has them scared, so of course there is going to be bashing. I mean I'd estimate at least 1/8 of the posters at DU are RW brainwashed fascists.

I like your posts, man, don't leave, be beligerant, tell the truth, fess up to his short-comings whenever they are pointed out, and tell people what you feel overall.

You can do nothing but good here.

Besides, theres lotsa non-political fun on these forums.


Looking forward to seeing ya if you leave.

None of them are beyond criticism, if we so desire.

and no KERRY bashing and LIBERMAN bashing, et al.?????????? Smells fishy this indignation.

(And I can see why )

I've found Dean to be widely supported.

I promise you that this won't be the last time that Dean misspeaks during the campaign. And you can be sure that all of the other candidates and their supporters will call him on it...as they should. This is all part of the nominating process, and hopefully all of the candidates will get their "I misspoke" lines out and forgotten by the time the general election campaign rolls around.

If you don't stick around, how are you going to be able to call these other guys on their foibles?

We'll be here enjoying ourselves as usual.

Another lounge post lizard are ya?

Dave has worked his ass off in DU for a very long time, and he deserves far better than that. kixot, meet ignore.

Do as Will (who has also been known to become disenchanted and take a break from DU) suggests, Dave, and come back when you are rested. Your friends will be here to greet you. :)

I'm about as thin skinned as they come and I just see it for what it
is...a bunch of disruptors. Just ignore the shit out of them! :-)

Did I just meetup with you at the Hotel Utica? I think this is the first post I've seen from you.

Well, there are about 30,000 of us so you are forgiven! :-)

What if your guy gives up too? If he takes the nomination, are you gonna be able to handle the heat? Because dude, it'll be meaner than a junkyard dog. Time to spine it up, brother.

but I'm taking a slightly different approach.

Here's what interests me. I'm a Dean supporter (no secret there) -- but I have very little interest in going around and either finding things about other candidates or manufacturing and misrepresenting things about other candidates. I don't even have much interest in other candidates' threads! I can't stand the lies and distortions about ANY candidates -- and on those few occasions I've seen distortions (sometimes inadvertent) of others' records, I've corrected them, or tried to. There's no reason to lie about ANY candidate, no matter who it is.

There are a few people here at DU (we all know who they are) who have made it their BUSINESS (quite possibly literally) to engage in these smear campaigns against Dean. Despite being corrected numerous (scores!!) of times on their factual inaccuracies, they still continue to post the same old shit. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, their take on the words or actions or demeanor of various candidates (tho some of that has gotten quite superficial and ugly), but no one is entitled to lie or spread untruths about the candidates.

And THAT is being done here quite purposefully against Dean.

Frankly, I think DU is being very foolish for allowing themselves to be used. These aren't differences of opinion, these are coordinated (however loosely) efforts by anti-Dean forces. And let's be clear: the most prominent anti-Dean forces are: the DLC, the RNC and John Kerry.

These several DUers respnsible for the bulk of this quite easily fit in the "disruptor" category and if I'm not mistaken, DU also has a rule against spamming, which may or ay not fit (depending on who's doing the defining of "spamming," I suppose). For the life of me, I can't understand why DU hasn't exercised its perogative to deal with these disruptors and spammers.

I hate the senseless Dean-bashing but far more than that, I hate seeing DU "used." And quite frankly, the abuse is getting worse -- it's about way more than Dean.

IN any case, my own solution is to stop participating as much in these bash Dean discussions. You can put people on ignore -- and I may get tired enough of their tripe to add them to my list. Increasingly I see them as rather pathetic individuals, and so may be getting close to invoking the ignore function.

I recommend the ignore function heartily. There's one DUer who drives me up a wall. I've never regretted having this person on ignore. There have been periods of time when I've had others on ignore for a while too. It helped.

I certainly wouldn't let THEM run ME away. They're not worth it. DU is too valuable.

I hope you'll stay, but do what you have to do.

Eloriel

WORKS :)

n/t

thats a ridiculous statement. Are you lumping in pro-Kerry people with the DLC and RNC? Im pro-Kerry and I will never say a bad word against Dean, even though Id prefer he doesnt get the nomination. Shit Ill be hard pressed to bash Lieberman or Nader even though I thoroughly detest thier positions (Lieberman) or motives (St Ralph) For a pro Dean person to get fed up with all the "Dean bashing' here, that person must really have some thin skin.

I second that. Every word of it.

Julie

go to some Meetups where folks will be flyering and getting the word out to folks without computers. Or take a break from politics, all together, and come back when you're refreshed. :)

Dean is likely to come under more attacks by the other candidates as the primary season heats up. And it will translate here in the form of backers of other candidates attacking Dean. That's the nature of the beast. My candidate, Kerry, is often the target by a handful of a rather nasty group, but it doesn't bother me. (most of the time, <wink>) When it does start to annoy me, then I just don't look at the threads on that subject for awhile. There is plently of other things to talk about here at DU in other threads.

.

Did you see the Time article? When everyone dissed Dean for the Russert interview, we responded by contributing, oh, just $90,000 more than usual. When the going gets tough, the tough get going. Eloriel is right. It's the work of a few people who can't think of enough good things about their own candidate, and instead fixate on Dean. And I do mean fixate. Obsess is actually more like it. I'm sure you'll find a Dean voodoo doll on their lap at any given moment. Very sad.

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101030811/timeline/

Were you around here about 6 months ago when Kerry was being called a traitor, murderer, Nazi, pervert, and every other vile thing ? Mostly because he belonged to Skull and Bones when he was in college.

I let it get to me and had some pretty hot debates here, but then I learned to either ignore these thugs, or make fun of them, which made them very mad.

You may be biting off your nose to spite your face, as they used to say. Do what you have to do.


And if any of my old tormenters are still out there, Bull and Scones for everyone.

That's just the inside the beltway style.

yawn.

into threads about Kucinich to say "He's unelectable," "He has bad hair," "He could be VP for Dean," etc. I could feel a lot more empathy if Deanists didn't get in a snit when anyone suggests Dean may not actually walk on water, could be wrong on certain issues. I could feel a lot more empathy if I weren't so tired of the "Dean Had Pancakes for Beakfast!!!" posts. Last night there were ELEVEN Dean threads on the front page of GD, and that's just counting the ones that had his name in the header so there were probably more. To be quite honest, the Dean overkill has made me not want to see or hear his name.

You are one of the more lucid and interesting people on this forum.

There are times when I also think this is pointless -- the same people arguing the same points over and over -- but I do get a lot of good information here.

I do agree though that some people are going to feel pretty stupid if they wake up in 2005 with Bush re-elected, because they spent all of their time attacking Dem candidates instead of building them up to beat Bush. Some people seem to be missing the point entirely.

Sigh...don't go...I love how everyone calls you "Amy." :)

well?

I know your serious about your views, and I myself think the candidate-bashing gets out of hand, but don't lose hope. I am in the lonely position of being a DU'er who supported (although reluctantly) the war in Iraq. I felt like leaving because it seemed like I was torn between two worlds. I supported the war, but I grew increasingly sick of the chickenhawk bullshit from the Right. I support anyone's right to oppose the war, and I don't question their values, etc. I think it's the same with the Dem candidates. I can understand someone supporting Lieberman, even if I don't agree. We need to be more civil, and not bite each others' heads off.

not just on the retirement age...but I have also documented on this board his lies on increasing/decreasing the pentagon budget.

Truly, the man is a typical politician...saying whatever the group of people he is talking to want to hear.

I find Dean's lies and contradictions on the issues and insult to my intelligence.

While I don't like Bush...Dean has lost all chance of gaining my respect for him. So I will be forced to vote Green Party come general election time. Not too bad because I consider myself a Green on many many issues.

I thought I'd give the Dems a chance to redeem themselves for the horrible team they put together in 2000...Gore/Satan, Kucinich is the only one who is answering the call.

So yeah, we probably will have 4 more years of Bush just because most of the Dem candidates insult my and the american people's intelligence with their contradictions on the issues(which in most cases are horrible stances with the current leaders).

I guess you'll be leaving Democraticunderground...right?

Was I misinformed? And I'm committed to Dennis now....since he is basically running on a Green Party platform. And the last time I looked, he was registered as a Democrat.

I don't get what your point is. I imagine it is to go away so it seems that Howard Dean is actually liberal? I don't think so.

on Kucinich's change of heart about abortion that will come if he achieves the kind of prominence you hope for? If you think he's going to be immune from the same kind of attacks on "waffling" or "lying" you are deluding yourself.

.

and not very witty to boot.

youll be voting for Bush (by not voting Dem). And we all know he is a BIG liar.

Sad fact of being a public figure, particular a politician, is every word you utter is public record. Kucinich has an entire career of anti-choice votes that will surely be brought up repeatedly if he ever achieves the prominence of some of the other candidates. Bank on it.

is Kucinich hasn't flip-flopped on any issue since he has been running. Dean has on at least a couple of issues(pentagon, retirement).

Bring up Kucinich's record...he'll simply state he has changed his mind after listening to many citizens...his entire campaign has supported a woman's right to choose.

If they can't see a consistent statement that he promised throughout his campaign and how he has growed as a person, oh well...I guess the joke will be on Dennis for not choosing the right option(a woman's right to choose) earlier in his political career. I think anyone with any sense of logic and understanding will see that Dennis is sincere and firm on his campaign beliefs. And to me, that is all that matters.

Which is why I would have no problem supporting Kucinich. But don't think for a minute it won't be an issue.

right to choose.

Kucinich wins! Is Bush going to argue that Kucinich is actually for the end to abortions while Bush himself is for that?

Come on now, that wouldn't make too much sense...Bush would come off as insane. Which in fact would help Kucinich beat Bush.

Truly, in the general election this would be a non issue. Abortion isn't going anywhere in America.

This is only an issue for the democratic primary where Kucinich says he has changed his mind and once elected will have a litmus test for all Supreme Court nominees on this issue. Which even reassures that abortion rights aren't going anywhere shall Kucinich be president.

Truly now...this is the biggest non issue in the campaign because abortion rights aren't going anywhere even under Bush's regime.

has never contradicted himself? St. Nader has never mislead anyone? Go ahead and vote Green, waste your vote and get Bush elected again. After all, St. Nader says there's no difference between the parties anyway, correct? So go ahead and vote Green and contribute to the continued raping of our environment by the Bushies, go ahead and make your selfish, stupid point. And don't lump the rest of the American people's intelligence with your own, they're much smarter than that. Dave leaves and people like you stay, there is no justice.

Gore was almost as republican as Bush, and his running-mate, Satan, was even moreso.

I refuse to vote for someone who supports the Death Penalty. It is wrong wrong wrong. That is where Al lost me....the man has no understanding of the judicial system of America, the Declaration of Independence, or morality. His running mate was and is a lunatic who is so possessed by his religion(moreso than Bush, and that is saying something).

I guess this goes back to a recent DU thread where it says what are you most afraid of...a corporate america(bush) or a theocratic america(holy joe). As an agnostic, I am more scared of a theocratic america...and will definitely not support either type of administration. Gore/Satan lost those votes by themselves. I never would have voted for lunatics such as them in the first place.

For another 4 years of Bush? Heck, I have options, I can always leave....right?

You’re such a good advertisement for Howard. Honestly Dave what are we going to do without you, with what looks to be 100,000 avid Dean supporters by the end of the month this would not be the time to be pulling out and leaving the rest of us holding the bag to carry on. Taking the heat is just part of the battle and planning your coarse to get even is just but one more.

You should leave by just going away and leaving the option to come back another day without telling anyone of your plans. (Okay coming back is still there, but do you really think we get a kick out of writing these goodbye letters (don't answer that)). Anyway, to each his own devices and may we all meet in the middle to boot * and his unrighteous posse out when the time comes :toast:

This is such a great news site, why give that up because the posters piss you off?

Everyone has experienced it. No candidate is immune from it. Just thank your lucky stars you're not supporting Lieberman.

I went to my first meetup tonight and I wonder where is the diversity? Dean talks about diversity(like everyone else)and inclusion, but his meetups need to make a concerted effort to attract minorities.
There are alot of african-americans who is disenchanted with the democrats for taking our votes for granted and are willing to sit this election out. "Better the devil you do know than the devil you don't", they say. What difference will it make? Howard Dean I reply, now back from the meetup I don't now.

Forget the nay sayers. Dean is going to win and you are not alone here! Come on and stay with us! We need you man!

John

Then Gore supporters, then Kerry, Gephardt, Edwards and Kucinich supporters. Dean gets the most adulation.

Dean started down a path last January where he would make a name for himself by attacking the other Democrats. His supporters here cheered him on and joined in with even more abusive rhetoric against the other candidates. How long did you think the other candidates and their supporters would hold their tongues?

Was it all good when Dean was doing all the attacking and it was merely"others" who were targeted? That was acceptable to you? That was fun? That was invigorating?

Buck up. You have too good a sense of humor to let anything keep you down for long.

I agree, the posts attacking each of the other candidates far outnumber (individually) the threads attacking Dean. If nothing else, the GD is a near safe-haven for Dean supporters. Anytime someone critisizes Dean (correctly or otherwise) there are at least half a dozen people leap to his diffence--which simply isn't true for some candidates (e.g. Lieberman).

I like you, AmyStrange (I love the glossery you put together)--just put a couple of people on ignore and come on back! :-)

Dean gets very little abuse. But, god forbid someone bring something up that doesn't make Dean look like a god

they are flamed.

nt

you sent me a PM but i can't send one back.

Dave, i do not want you to leave. no offense, my friend, but all the candidates get discussed here and depending on who you support, you're either going to be insulted or inspired(you really comes down to interpretation and POV.)

start making use of the ignore feature but don't go.
i would miss you.
love you!

but I must say, you are really thin-skinned.

of you are too important to DU Community and to discussion to leave. Take a break and come back.......there has been an outbreak of "nastiness" lately.

It comes and goes here in cycles.

And, sometimes we ourselves are just more sensitive to it on some days or weeks than at other times.

Take that break..... it works to see some of the attack stuff for the silliness it is. Really.

I will support ANY Democrat who gets the nomination. (Lieberman will be out after the Iowa Caucus.)But I really like Dean and Kerry. I hope Clark runs, or gets tabbed for VP. But Dean is the one who inspires me most.

I don't bash Dem candidates. So we're not all bad. Don't go.

think of DU as opposition research. If you can't take the stuff being thrown around here, you are going to be one miserable puppy for the next 14 months, cause it's gonna get real fucking ugly out there. we are in a battle for the soul of a great nation, and the assholes on the other side won't go easily. Everything you see and read here is going to be flying in the public non-stop until november, 2004. BushCo has $300 MILLION to spend, and they will spend every penny calling Dean, Kerry, Lieberman, whoever it is, every fucking name in the book. Remember Clinton bashing? that was the warm up. Now's the time to develop callouses and sew your kevlar suit.

If you can't take this, then you are not good to Dean or anyone. And we need you, Dave, so suck it it, take a break to recharge, and come back swinging. We need fighters like you, but you need to be able to take a punch and come back.

so, see you, or not.

:)
and I hope you'll take Ahhnold's advice: "I'll be Back"

:hi:

is that hard to believe or reason enough to get mad?

welcome to politics...

"It almost makes me hope Bush wins in 2004 so y'all can get another four years of a real liar instead of the one you think Dean is."

Never, no matter how pathetic the world gets would I ever wish for that.

:(