What martial arts do you do, DUers?

:rofl:

And, as Flvegan knows, I've had just enough boxing to knock how to smack him around a bit.

Sadly, I ran out of $ for aikido during grad school, and now that I have the $ I lack the time with 2 little boys (5 and 3) at home. However, our new house is 1 town over from an established dojo and as the boys get older I will get back into it.

I miss it dearly, on nearly a daily basis 8 years (!) after stopping. It's like missing a limb. I think I was a much more emotionally and mentally even-keeled when I was training a few times a week...

She is wonderful. One of the highest ranked in the world, and a personal friend of O Sensei's family. She is a terrific, kind teacher. We are lucky to ahve her so close to us.

Aikido lead me to Zen Buddhism, so I know what you're saying!

:hi:

Hasn't failed me yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWSN-UIpuUQ

"dont go ninjain' nobody 'at don't need ninjain"

:hi:

Oh, never mind.

I thought that said "marital" arts.

:evilgrin:

Badly.

Ok not really, but sorta of.

:)

I cross-trained in Southern Praying Mantis for a coupla.

arms bigger than mine, sporto?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=8776279

:rofl:

I was one limber chick at the end of the lessons, which came in handy later:spank: , not to mention I could defend myself pretty well...... :banghead:

Also took some tae kwan do classes with my kids.

In other words, smash/break/bend/stab the ever living shit out of someone and drop them as fast as possible. Whether or not it's practical I've yet to find out, but I did extremely well in the bootcamp boxing ring. I didn't even know I had it in me.

I did some Taekwondo for a few years before signing up. I was also a certified EMT, but I'm sure that certification is long since expired.

I ended up fighting him on one foot, probably with a sprained ankle, but it sure seemed like a broken one. The bruise ended up going from tips of my toes to half way up my leg. Of course he didn't follow through and snap my neck, collapse my trachea and gouge my eyes during the move which screwed my ankle in the first place. Ouch. Colonel Trautman would call that slipping up, but we're not Green Berets, and we are Brothers after all, and I'm okay with not being killed in a drunken sparring match with Andy.

We spray Reddi-Whip in one another's mouths an play "Guitar Herp."

Karate men bruise on the inside. They don't show their weaknesses.

this close to Memorial Day...

:P



EDIT: Yeah.

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Works for me.

I still remember some stances, too!

Earned it 4 decades ago in Seoul. Now I can't remember what Tae Kwon Does.

it was fun, from what I remember

That was back in my manly days.

Tae Kwon Do is basically stripped-down karate (it bears no relationship, in any meaningful sense or in lineage, with old Korean martial arts, no matter what the Koreans claim) and it's very, very weak with the hands. It also usually doesn't include such stuff as pressure point and nerve-strike training, at least not systematically, grappling (unless they incorporate hapkido, a modern art based mainly on jujitsu, or a Japanese or Chinese art), or (usually) weapons. An incomplete style it may be, but it sure hurts like hell when a good TKD black belt lands a kick on you. Just with some of the Japanese karate styles that are very limited in the arsenal of techniques -- maybe all the karateka really knows well is reverse punch and front kick, but you do NOT want to get in the way of either -- all the inordinate focus on kicking inevitably produces some powerful kickers if they're training well.

A lot of TKD types, at least in the kind of sparring I did (not sure if the WTF types are rigid enough to forbid this) basically compensate for lack of hand techniques by grafting on some Western boxing or even just the generic kickboxing stuff that's developed since the '60s. If you get inside a TKD stylist's legs, especially if they're more focused on flashy high kicks that leave them inherently unstable with vulnerable areas wide open, you've probably got them and the odds are good they won't know what to do, but do NOT let them kick you. Ouch. Still, although there're many variables and any training can give you an edge (or, if you're going about it wrong, cause you to react to respond rather than flee, believing your skills are greater on the street than they might prove), if I was a black belt in TKD who'd only trained in TKD, especially the more sport-oriented side, I'd tend to keep my self-defense abilities in healthy perspective.

WTF style ( :wtf: ), pushed by the Korean government, took over and is even further removed from reality, pretty much seen primarily as nothing more than a sport these days. When I saw it entered the Olympics I could only watch a few seconds of it because I just find that it's pretty pointless and unexciting.

In any American town, if you see a karate school, the odds are really good that they're actually selling tae kwon do (or maybe tang soo do). Unfortunately, the odds are also rather decent that the place could well be a 'belt mill.'

:thumbsup:

Then if I have to, I cheat. Mr. 12-gauge is a good friend.

and they will.

but i've slacked off lately... now it's more like verbal abuse-jutsu...

I fucking sucked at it. I was 23 when I started and I got my ass handed to me by 13 year olds every fucking practice.

Trained with the Founder/Chief Instructor for a couple of years. Great training. Effective.

It's like Krav Maga (which I would love to try) in that it focuses strictly on self defense. But as in the Bruce Lee style, there are no belt rankings. CSDS uses many of Bruce Lee's Jeet Kun Do fighting principles. The emphasis is on bag work (a great workout), lot's of drills, such as punching, low kicking, using the knees, elbows, take downs, trapping, ground fighting, etc. Emphasis was placed on which body parts to strike and how to react if attacked in a variety of situations. There is a bit of Tai Chi used during warmups. I loved it and was never bored. The instructor was the hardest hitting martial artist that I've yet to meet. He thought that practicing Tai Chi helped him with his power. The guy could kick so hard that he could easily destroy kick bags. So, we would roll up wrestling mats for him to kick, and at least two people had to hold the mats. Holding the mats for this guy was scary.

Did you see the Bruce Lee thing on the History Channel Thursday night? Very good.

If you are considering training in self defense/martial arts, I do recommend Krav Maga or Brazilian Ju Jitsu. It's hard to find a qualified CSDS instructor. The founder/chief instructor is a close friend. Unfortunately, he doesn't live near me anymore. If he did, I'd still be training with him.

Like in training and nutrition. Haruka is a HUGE Bruce Lee fan, so we watched it.

I wouldn't mind doing a BJJ class a week in conjunction with my Aikido, but there's only one place here, and it's very "Kewl," if you get what I mean.

Good luck with your training! I consider Bruce Lee to be the best Martial Artist ever. I also have a lot of respect for the late Helio Gracie, who started the BJJ style. I can tell you what I felt was the most beneficial part of the CSDS training - the bag work and the drills. When I did have to defend myself on the street (I did security work as a second job for many years) it was very effective. There is one dude out there who I am quite sure will never forget his encounter with me. I caught him trying to break into an apartment. He was drunk and came at me. I trashed him good. He tried to have me charged with assault when the cops showed up. In a real fight, there is no time to think. You fight the way you train. I'm a huge believer in bag work because you practice hitting hard when fatigued. Trust me, that is so important in a real life situation.

But "best martial artist ever" is just as meaningless a title as "best artist ever" or similar. Bruce was a tireless self-promoter both as a martial artist and as an actor -- I don't mean this in a negative sense because he played an important part in transforming both martial arts culture and action-oriented cinema -- and there have undoubtedly been hundreds or even thousands of martial artists who were every bit his equal in any empirical measure other than fame, people who perhaps gained the respect of other proponents or the people of local areas in China, or wherever, but who went largely unnoticed by the larger world. Even among better-know martial artists, there have been an endless array who, on any given day, probably could have bested Bruce Lee. Added to this, and vastly more significant, is that even if you consider only Chinese martial arts you're talking about a dizzying array of different martial arts and meaningful comparison of one style or one student of that style with another is fraught with difficulty; to some degree, even in terms of practical efficacy (under what conditions? within what ranges? on what kind of terrain?), it's the old apples vs oranges situation. Yes, at the highest levels most complete Asian fighting systems of legitimate lineage end up looking and feeling like tai chi -- 'tai chi' means 'grand ultimate' and, in typical Chinese fashion, even if it might not usually look like much of a fighting art it sure as hell feels like one when you go against a skilled proponent -- but there're still a myriad of differences and a corresponding myriad of ways in which martial artists could meaningfully be referred to as truly great at what they do.

There're a great many prominent martial artists in Chinese lineages who by all indications were phenomenally capable and influential. The further you go back in time (excepting some shameless frauds who create or embellish their histories, at least one of whom has a very successful franchise of schools...instant Shaolin, basically...***cough***Sin Kwang The***cough***), the harder it gets to tease apart legend and fact. A little over a hundred years ago Wong Fei-Hung, the best-known proponent of hung gar, became a legend within his own time and is still so famous that every second Jackie Chan film seemed to be about him. The Ten Tigers of Canton, too (oh, what I wouldn't give to be part of a group with a name that cool!), became folk heroes. Then there's Ku Yu Cheung, northern Shaolin folk hero of the Twentieth Century, and his iron palm:



In Japan and Okinawa you had the likes of Gichin Funakoshi (shotokan), Musashi Miyamoto (samurai/swordplay), Mas Oyama (kyokushin), Morihei Ueshiba (aikido), and, of course, Steven Seagal (blowhard a**hole liar, outdone in this respect only by the likes of Frank Dux). All of these men, except the last one (whose stories of derring-do usually belong to someone else) were pretty amazing cats whose physical prowess was usually balanced by prodigious spiritual and intellectual qualities.

Even now, right here in the USA, you've got dudes like Chan Poi (Wah Lum mantis), Kwong Wing Lam (northern Shaolin), Tat Mau Wong (choy li fut), Yang Jwing Ming (white crane), and many others, and their students, who seem to regularly defy laws of physics (and aging) with the things they can do with their bodies and with weapons that are extensions of the same. Then there're those who've taken their skills to the ring to great success -- Chuck Norris (before he went insane), Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis, Judo Gene LeBell and a few other leap to mind -- as well as those who've quietly helped people more effectively and efficiently defend themselves (Wally Jay is a good example -- I seem to recall Bruce Lee learning from him, too -- as was kenpo impresario Ed Parker, the man who really helped get Bruce's career in the spotlight kickstarted).

I don't know about you, but I sure wouldn't want to be given the finger by this dude (unlikely, given he died 20 years ago)...I imagine it'd hurt:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/61804/90_year_old_kung_fu_master_stands_on_one_finger/

Bruce Lee learned elements of many traditional Chinese martial arts styles. From his father he learned tai chi, that I believe he kept up under other teachers, and he also learned at least the basics (though Bruce was a very quick learner so he may have accelerated into the upper levels of some styles) of various other Shaolin-based styles, like tiger, southern mantis, etc. Of course, his big early influence was wing chun, and even later its infighting nature was apparent even in the more showy and high-kicking 'movie style' that he adapted to the screen. He studied Western boxing and fencing along with styles that'd increase his leg work (wing chun is sparing with kicks and usually none are delivered above the waist, and most kicks are rarely above the knee) and grappling facility. Again, his movie style was exaggerated for effect and not very realistic to a degree, to a great extent divorced from his actual fighting style and approach. When he got around to teaching, as with most teachers in older systems, the students he had early on learned a totally different 'style' than did those later, and even among his later students some were taught more of one element of his style (grappling, escrima, etc) than another. None of this was a departure from SOP in martial arts; Yip Man did the same within his school of wing chun, accounting for the legendary rivalries and posturing among his immediate and second-generation students, all claiming to posses the one true art.

Bruce Lee was unusual in that to an extent he revolted against the confines of 'style' (while definitely not abandoning the things he learned from systematized styles), thus the irony in some proponents of Jeet Kune Do and Jun Fan being so adamant that they teach Bruce Lee's style, a personal style that was ever-evolving and very individual (hell, I could say the same of myself, except that I never dedicated myself to it as utterly singlemindedly Bruce did, in that I've gone to high levels in a couple of systems but had tastes of a pretty wide assortment, all of which inform my own fighting style to some degree even if the result is not as self-defined and relentlessly self-analyzed was Bruce Lee's). Of course, Bruce is hardly unique in this journey: after all, all those old monkish dudes of yore sitting around on Chinese hilltops watching mantises fight and all of that were open to new directions, too, and combined elements of existing styles to create new ones. I would not be surprised if, had he lived past 32, Bruce Lee would have eventually incorporated more and more tai chi into his own style and the result would appear far 'softer.' I also could see him being less adamant about the confining nature of traditional styles, given that the truth is that all martial art styles by necessity and by sheer inevitability evolve from one generation to the next and, occasionally, within some nuclear-reactor of a martial innovator like Bruce Lee, make leaps within a single generation. I think he did a lot of good in drawing people's attention to the constraints of style, even if I think much of what he said in that regard has been misunderstood.

As much as I'm impressed by his mixing seemingly disparate influences, no matter that some of the results were already in the Shaolin playbook from way back (the stop-hit idea he got from Western fencing, for example, is an old Chinese trick...not much new under the sun in that part of the world, it seems), it's his sophisticated and constantly questioning philosophy of martial arts (and of life) that really impresses me. He was way, way ahead of the curve at a young age and to anyone who sees him as merely another kung-fu film star (not that there's anything wrong with that) or -- like Jackie Chan, Sammo Hung, Jet Li and most of the others -- as much or more a product of Peking Opera or state-standardized performance wushu than of traditional martial arts, I'd point out his widely available musings on philosophy and on combat theory. The man knew his stuff. He was not just a pretty face, taut body, and very fast and gifted martial artist; he was the real thing. And, yeah, as the screen presence that most of us knew him as he's sort of like James Dean, dead before most of us knew who he was or saw any of his movies but unquestionably singularly talented within the roles he inhabited. Although many martial arts movies have since come out, especially since the late '80s, that probably eclipse Enter The Dragon in most or all respects, that 1973 movie will, I suspect, always remain my automatic pick for the ultimate martial arts movie. Also, in the short term, he was largely responsible for the kung fu and karate craze that smacked the US and the world like a spinning backfist circa 1974, when everybody was kung-fu fighting and I was watching Hong Kong Phooey on TV. Just as newer musical bands may well have already or may well one day produce music that outdoes Elvis or the Beatles by any meaningful measure, and just as to many of us the likes of Elvis and the Beatles will still remain the benchmarks for influence and quality, Bruce Lee made such a mark on the world in his very brief period of relative fame that he's still the standard now that he's been dead longer than he was alive.



EDIT: forgot to add that Bruce was hardly one for whom it all came easily...I mean, it may have in some ways, largely emotionally and intellectually, but he had to overcome a few obstacles to become as good as he did, perhaps one reason he DID become that good, better than most of his peers. For one, his mother was half German and even that much European blood in him made Bruce an undesirable student to many Chinese teachers in Hong Kong and even in Yip Man's school some classmates refused to associate with him. Bruce grew up in an affluent family but to become what he did he worked unbelievably hard -- he was born with one leg shorter than the other and was terribly near-sighted (characteristically, he turned both to advantage, using his slightly off-kilter leg imbalance to add power to kicks and compensating for his poor vision by becoming very adept at the infighting skills promoted by wing chun, including chi sau sensitivity training. I've always been one who wonders if Bruce's drive to hone his body into an incredibly highly-tuned fighting machine (just look at his physique in Enter The Dragon compared with his earlier films, in which he still had a slightly more rounded appearance with at least a few ounces of subcutaneous fat) helped do him in, if he basically just overtrained.

Specifically his grandson. She even stayed with them when she trained for a while in Japan back in the early 80's. She is very dedicated to O Sensei's vision of Aikido.

The Bruce Lee special on the History Channel was very interesting to ME, because I had no idea he was so forward thinking in his ideas of sports nutrition and training methods. I also didn't realize that he didn't use any camera tricks or special effects.

I definitely recommend looking at the book "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do," that basically compiles some of Bruce's notes and doodles. It's probably at the library if Haruka doesn't have it. Also the most excellent "Zen and the Martial Arts," by Joe Hyams, a slim volume but one packed with goodies (including some from Bruce, who was one of the author's teachers). The Ohara series of books on his fighting style are worthwhile, too, to some extent. Yeah, he was way ahead of the pack in terms of how he trained himself. I still can't help but think that he pushed himself too far, though.

She does do Jeet Kune Do, she's a nidan in Isshinryu, but she finds his writing very interesting.

Excellent info. I'll re-read when time permits. I'm also a fan of the late Mas Oyama and I trained for about a year and a half in his style of Karate. Great stuf, Forrest Gump!

I really liked it but the commute to get there was too damn long.

I don't need no stinking martial arts

I've also done some sword work, had a couple fencing lessons, and taken tai chi.

And I'm with Hobbit's comment up above mine... in a real fight, I cheat. :P No guns for me, but I ain't above breaking limbs or kicks to the groin if life and limb are in peril.

ninja for peace. :P

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Yang style practitioner here. The saying goes, if an arm breaks, it's your (opponent's) arm. :D It's a soft martial art that can knock the uninformed on their ass.

and if I manage to get a job in Denver theres a Krav Maga school I would love to join.

But didn't keep up with it.

NO! I'm not making a bad joke here! She really was. She always sneered and called Aikido "Hippy Judo." I, of course, wasn't stupid enough to snark at her!

You can use some wrist locks on Fred Phelps.

Had to cover for the other supervisor yesterday.

I liked my little Judo outfit when I was a kid, but since I was smaller than everyone else (even my younger sister), I quickly grew tired of being thrown around the place. I was great at falling correctly, however.

Took up horseback riding after that.;)

Which you get, since Aikido and Judo are first cousins.

in something. I'm still small, lol, so it would be a good thing.

It's a legit one:

http://www.angelfire.com/fl5/aikido/Contact.htm

Can't get that site at work, but I'll check later. Is it a link to the one in Big Pine? Are you familiar with that one yourself?

But, it lists the sensei and contact info.

He -- and the dojo -- are legit. Accredited by the USAF, which is a big deal. If you're interestd, I can check with my sensei and see if she knows him. She's a "big wheel" in American Aikido.

I figure if you're living outside of "town" a bit, that wouldn't be a bad drive for you, beacuse you really wouldn't ahve to go through any real towns or lights, and it's before the Bridge.

I live at MM15, so that is an easy trip - BP is MM30. I go to Big Pine for groceries all the time anyway, because I'd just as soon drive there as to KW.

He is totally legit, as I said, so I'd email him or call him. I'll email my Sensei today. The dojo is caled "Southernmost"!

Is the only grocery store at BPK still the Winn Dixie? I haven't been there in a few years. After posting with you lately, I think I need to make a trip down next summer.

Winn Dixie is the only grocery store. There is a small store called Lost Cargo, which specializes in fresh veggies and such. Kinda cool, half head shop, lol.

Yeah, y'all should definitely pencil in a trip to the Keys!

If you're ever bored and want to read some weird stuff, this site has a message board kinda thing called the Coconut Telegraph. If you read it regularly you'll know all the drama in Big Pine. The Winn Dixie frequently figures prominently in the Telegraph. Fair warning though, the site is NOT PC and has plenty of freep activity. It's still funny though.

http://bigpinekey.com/

Just click on Coconut Telegraph, you can read back as far as you want because they archive it all.

It also has a different contact email.

http://www.usaikifed.com/directory.html#FL

He who runs and runs away,lives to run another day.:silly::P My mom didn't birth any heroes. :yoiks: = me.

:)

:D

Did GD manage to leak into here again?

In a battle, the side with the technical edge usually wins.

... are shot by those who don't. :P

...wind up pushing a plowshare for those that didn't...

Go to the US federation website -- they list all of them. Most places will let you take a free class.

I forget which martial art, but he is educated in about a half dozen of them including kenpo and aikido. He was even invited to try out for the olympics but didn't go because he couldn't afford it. I want him to teach me, but our work schedules don't mix (he works when I'm at home and visa versa).

It's an obscure Scottish form which relies heavily on lifting one's kilt and cursing in Scots.

Though I haven't practiced my "art" in quite some time now. Getting too old for that sort of nonsense.

Hiyaaah!

ANd if that doesn't work, 9 mm.

But I also know karate, kung fu, aikido and a number of other dangerous words.

that's all

...that most subtle and sedentary of martial arts.

Too old to fight, too slow to run.

Got a brown belt maybe 20 years ago

The folks in my dojo who were really good got to tour Japan. I barely passed my tests on the second try

One of my Dojo's fellow members invented the Internet. No it wasn't Al Gore, it was Leonard Kleinrock of UCLA

It was great, but I was unable to find a school again after moving to Pennsylvania. :-(

:rofl:

I also know Chop-ati. ;)

;)

I would love to communicate with others who are involved in sword form.

Cool question, and one that I have never seen asked here on DU before.

I've taken a few fencing lessons and gotten a few books about kendo and tai chi sword, but the only actual sword 'work' I've done has been covering PVC pipes with padding and beating the snot out of people with it. :P

My old roommate (hasn't been around DU lately but his handle is The Animator) and I used to spar all the time, and my brother (who taught me karate and had done some escrima) was pretty handy with one or two one handed swords.

I've been practicing tai chi for about 15 years now.

All I have is a book to go on right now though. I don't know anyone who can actually teach me.

Pm if you don't want to say.

I would think there would be someone in your area who has the expertise. If you get any of the tai chi mags, they usually have some info about skilled practitioners who might be in your area.

When they broke up, we stopped our lessons, unfortunately.

or practices involving KI and energy, or Tantric practices.

Where I train, the first hour of class is stand-up fighting, and the second hour is submission grappling. Friday nights are mostly striking.

I once watched him give a friend a drunken lesson at a party. Does that count?

He thought about doing it professionally - his Sensei thought he could make it. I'm glad he didn't because what I have seen of it is pretty brutal. (Yeah, I'm selfish that way :D )

Broken legs all over the place -- eek!

He was able to show his Drill Sargeants a thing or two when he went through BT and AIT. :D

He also still amazes people in his Guard Unit. They don't want to learn even if he offers to teach them!

I also have a bit of experience in Kalashnikov Maga. :)

It is his primary form of exercise and good god, he looks like a god carved out of marble. His physique is stunning.

He is very good at iaido. His sensei asked him if he wanted to join a program where he could study the martial arts while going to college in Japan. He decided against it, but it was an honor to be asked.

OOOO -- he should ahve done that! I know the program you're talking about.

He did consider it carefully.

:hi:

But it helped with balance more than defense. In a fight, I find being quick with a can of mace more effective. ;-)

But it is not taught that way. It's difficult to explain a "feeling" I got from it. It stays with a person - finding your 'center' that is - for a long time. I'm glad I was taught some of it. I should really take it up again.

She described it as a "laid-back, energized tingly feeling."

I practice Aikdio, which is very much focsued on the "center," and ki, so I know what you mean.

but (from reading and talking with people who have) I get the impression that it converged quite a bit with tai chi. Lots of aligning yourself with the attacker and redirecting their energy, right? Basically helping him or her to the floor without the overt 'aggression' of many martial arts (aikijujitsu included)... :D

I like the idea very much. "Really, officer, I don't know what happened...they just fell over. Repeatedly."

Both have alot of similarities, but Aikido does focus on centering and ki, and taking your attacker's energy and using it against them. I'll admit it's only practical IRL if you are very high level, like my Sensei (who is female, almost 50, and 5' tall and can kick ass) or Steven Segal.

push-hands techniques, and some two-person form, which you could use in close contact if you worked at it. Sometimes, awareness of the other person's hard force and tension in their body, as well as balance, can be used against them effectively in an external way.

Tai chi is deceptive some times. A really good practitioner could easily defeat someone using a harder form of martial art. People tend to forget this when they see how "soft" it looks.

I vouch for the deceptive nature of tai chi and how, as passive as it may seem to a civilian (or even to a skilled martial artist from a more 'external' tradition), it's some nasty stuff. Didn't take me long to realize that tai chi dudes will feel me out and the moment your body decides to move in one way they'll help it move ALL THE WAY in that direction, usually with unhappy results for me; like I said, I caught on to them pretty early on but actually doing something about it, and preventing them from gaining the advantage, is a whole other story.

Push-hands develops a phenomenal ability with reading the opponent's intent. Some of the martial arts I've done has included similar training, and I've done a little bit of push-hands, but just as tai chi takes a long time to be able to deploy as an effective fighting art in an all-out fight, so does that kind of sensitivity take a long time to develop within the curriculum of most so-called 'external' (or mostly so) martial arts.

Glad to see someone out there who knows about this....


:hi:


Most people are deceived by tai chi, and that only shows what they don't know.

I've studied a lot of 'external' martial arts (basically those in the Shaolin tradition, or related: Buddhist and Muslim 'kung fu') and, even now that I'm twice the age I was when I started, it's still all that sweaty jumping around that captures my imagination most. I've done a little bit of tai chi (Yang and Chen -- Chen is far more obviously 'external' in some of its moves, and you can feel the room shake when a good practitioner stomps or whatever...pictures fall off the wall) and even less of a few other 'internal' styles but my experience of how it feels comes more from the side of being thrown around by tai chi types.

My first direct encounter with tai chi was when, after a decade of being out of the country, I returned to my natal land and met my old kung fu teacher, who in the interim had delved deeply into tai chi. I was 34 at the time, much bigger and younger than him (he was of Chinese ethnicity, about 6' tall and very lean) and I'd been a serious student of martial arts for well over a decade and had not so long before spent a few years in Los Angeles training very hard in traditional arts and more eclectic fighting training. It was no contest. He wiped the floor with me and didn't even break a sweat, all the time with that supremely placid look on his face. He was an accomplished martial artist already, but (apart from some early exposure when he was young, after which he went with the flashier kung fu that better suited his temperament then) he hadn't really been training long enough in tai chi to be a real 'expert' (he DID have a great teacher, who took him in as a 'closed door' disciple and trained him intensively in tai chi as a martial art), but he utterly trashed me. And I was trying, too; I wasn't just letting myself get thrown about or ceding to my sifu out of some misplaced sense of loyalty or deference.

It freaked me out. I mean, some of what I'd learned in the interim involved more 'internal' approaches to martial arts, and I'd already done a fair bit of sensitivity training and the like so I wasn't just some hard-kicking meataxe, the proverbial unstoppable brute force, but this was the first time I'd crossed hands with a dedicated tai chi practitioner and -- just as when, years earlier, I had my nose bloodied by a black belt who for years had been a competitive boxer -- it forced a bit of a paradigm shift. Like I said, I was way larger than my erstwhile teacher -- larger than most people, really -- and I was undeniably at least somewhat skilled in martial arts and sparring, but I just couldn't touch him. Whenever I went for him, he wasn't there...except, suddenly, there he was, propelling me across the room with the most subtle of techniques and with little to no overt input of his own energy. His training hall is a very large place and - I am absolutely telling the literal truth here, with zero hyperbole -- from the center of the room he repeatedly had me actually flying across most of the room until gravity finally kicked in and I touched down just in time to stumble and trip my way into the wall at rather alarming velocity. Over and over. I just couldn't touch him, and in years before I was one of his students who, when he and I sparred, managed to sometimes come out on top or, at least, manage a few instances of trapping or land a few blows. This tai chi stuff, though, was akin to me encountering an alien life form; what's most unusual about that is that I'd for many years read a fair bit about tai chi and understood many of its concepts very well, again proving that reading about something and actually feeling it can be two rather different things. I was, to say the least, impressed.

Like I said, I later did train a little in tai chi (and two related Taoist 'internal' arts, hsing-i and the impenetrable pakua) but only as an adjunct to my more 'external' Shaolin training -- it's pretty common for kung fu instructors of legitimate lineage to have been taught some form of tai chi (perhaps even more than one) alongside the other stuff or, at least, at higher levels of their training. Learning the steps involved in tai chi forms is pretty simple if you're already an experienced martial artist who has the advantage of having established efficient relevant neural pathways, muscle memory, and (very importantly) learning how to learn. Becoming proficient at tai chi, or even mastering it, is a whole other story. As I mentioned, I still am not quite ready to go all out on tai chi -- still have this inexplicable need to force my chronologically older body to try to exceed what I suspect might be design limitations -- but I respect the hell out of it and the little bit I've done has augmented my Shaolin training in various styles. And, yes, if I take any of the styles I've trained in to a high enough level (most easily seen with Fukien white crane, but true of most other Chinese-based systems, including Okinawan karate) it'll basically converge on tai chi.

In other words, tai chi as a martial art is something that takes a long, LONG time to make useful as a fighting skillset, but when you get to that point you're all but untouchable (hand to hand, anyway, and probably with certain weapons involved). Needless to say, even many of those with the patience to try for such a level of expertise often don't have the available time to dedicate. With what people more often think of as 'kung fu' (in case you haven't already heard, the term 'kung fu' does not actually refer solely to martial arts but means 'time and effort') or karate you're likely to be able to start being proficient at defending yourself after a shorter time of dedicated training, maybe two or three years, so the immediate martial results are quicker but generally of lower level than the long and slow approach of tai chi: tortoise and hare kind of thing, really. Do both and you're set up quite nicely, if you can focus properly on each.

I started by saying that tai chi is remarkable. Although it IS remarkable as a martial system, that's not really what I was going to set out saying. What's most remarkable to me, I think, is that tai chi works on just about any level, with any degree of participation. The fact is that only a relatively few teachers are qualified to teach tai chi as a martial art, complete with weapons forms, and many parts of the US (for example) are devoid of such teachers. I think I've established that tai chi, from my own experience, is some freakily handy stuff to have in your self-defense arsenal (and, even if you're like me and only dabble in it, it adds greatly to more 'external' pursuits and generally to physical grace and wellbeing). But when tai chi is taught solely as an exercise, as it is to many millions of people, it also works phenomenally well, very much akin to yoga in the low-impact benefit as well as in maintaining and enhancing suppleness, blood flow, etc, etc, not to mention the whole 'chi' issue. It also works as a form of moving meditation. It works in many different ways, and works well, even when not taught as a martial art. It's an ideal exercise, I think, for pretty much anyone. If you want to read some really interesting information on how tai chi can help protect seniors, most notably from the slip-and-fall scenario that kills so many via hip breakage, punch Dr Tingsen Xu into Google -- I first saw him give a talk and demo at a Whole Life Expo in Atlanta back in the '90s and his message really made an impression on me.

Tai chi is still not something I'm ready to take on full-speed-ahead, for whatever reasons, but I have no hesitation in agreeing that it may well be the 'grand ultimate' martial art (an idea counterintuitive to many, especially in the West, who see tai chi only as some weird slo-mo posing) and that it is a cure-all for a plethora of ills as well as generally enhancing its practitioners' lives. One good thing about it is that, when I'm a much older Forrest, tai chi will still be something I could get into without too many aches and pains. If any of you reading this thread are thinking of giving tai chi a try, I heartily recommend you do so...you might just feel that indescribable feeling it brings on your first few times out, if you're lucky.

In sparring, the only thing anywhere near as freaky as going against someone who studies tai chi, or against someone (usually my instructor) who suddenly goes from fighting like a Shaolin dude or kickboxer and then gets all inscrutably taichi on my behind, is trying to go against someone doing drunken boxing. Drunken forms are often a novelty, inspired either by Jackie Chan films or modern performance wushu and not really either traditional or effective, but they're part of several kung fu styles and the stuff DOES work: it's all about broken rhythm and not doing what the opponent expects (and, conversely, doing what he or she does NOT expect, more so than the usual deception encouraged in good kung fu stylists, kung fu basically being a codified system of Chinese dirty-fighting). To do a drunken form, traditional or the modern performance kind, requires a good deal of athleticism even compared to mainstream martial arts, but the real key to it, if you watch it, is how deceptive it is in motion and intent and how broken the various rhythms are -- it's hard to fight that. Tai chi is very similar in that respect, at high levels, and is also distinguished by the same idea prevalent in the sport of judo and in aikido (present in most martial arts of any great worth, but KEY to these ones and a few others): use the oppoent's strength/force/motion/intent against them. Real fighting may not look as clean as even full-contact sparring, but proficiency in this concept gives a definite edge.

incorporate broken rythms and the like to throw the opponent off... just not to that extreme. :)

force, and then not knowing how they ended up on their ass!



:rofl:

I've been doing Yang style for almost 15 years, and there is always more to learn. My teacher loves the martial arts applications, and you never reach the end of what he knows and what you can learn, at many increasingly more subtle levels. And a good push hands practitioner, like Benjamin Lo, can pretty much put anyone to shame. If you watch old films of Cheng Man Ching doing sword-form or the Form with his students, you really get a sense of the internal power made external, and playful.


My teacher could easily push someone across the room without really exerting much effort, but he will also catch you so you don't fall down. They say that anything more than 2 ounces of force is too much and that is the beauty of tai chi, it's suppleness, it's calm, it's gentle awareness, but also it's intent and purposefulness.

it's basically applied Tai Chi - where you learn that "brushing the horses mane" is really just a more pleasant way of saying "breaking the mother****er's arm" and "raising the lantern" is a nasty double ear-box. It's more throws, bars/locks, and trips than strikes and kicks (although there are times when you could do both), and basic things like avoiding a punch and how to fall down without getting hurt.

The dichotomy is also often expressed as 'soft' versus 'hard,' which is probably even more meaningless. Besides, and perhaps not surprising given Asian origins, most of what we see as martial arts exist as more of a continuum (or some enfolded twisting and turning double- or quadruple-helix) than as anything describable as a dichotomy.

To some extent the traditional division, arbitrary though it may be at some level, is based largely on separating arts of more recent Wudang and other Taoist origin (tai chi, pakua, hsing-i being the big three) from those of Buddhist origin (Shaolin, mostly). There're plenty of exceptions on the Buddhist side and you've also got a massive variety of various very old and relatively newer family styles within China and others like Chinese Muslim martial arts, Tibetan lama arts, Mongolian arts, etc. Also, China was kind of a melting pot and the separation between Taoist and Buddhist stylists and traditions was not hard and fast at all.

Chi development and the like isn't really even a valid reason for the division, either, though I suspect that's a key defining point for many, because even 'hard' martial arts focus on that, and do so more and more as you climb the ladder -- even Okinawan karate, that's essentially a stripped-down form of southern Chinese kung fu (white crane, hung gar, etc), and Japanese karate (shotokan, etc), that's pared down even further, have chi development exercises by black belt level if not before. For many of us, I think we tend to refer to martial arts like tai chi, that generally appear 'soft' and passive as 'internal' arts and those that appear more vigorous, like goju-ryu karate or any of the various Shaolin kung fu styles, as 'internal.' It still gets tricky, though, in that much of hsing-i and similar 'internal' styles appears very much 'external' and what, exactly, is something like aikido?

At high levels, more internal arts tend to become more external in look and feel and external arts go more internal. Many roads to the same destination, really. Most of us, though, don't have the time or dedication, or both, to get anywhere near those levels.

As with most things, it seems to me, it all boils down to the tai chi symbol (yin-yang): in that iconic symbol, much loved by surfers, yin and yang both perpetually flow one into the other and each includes part of the other. I think the internal-external dichotomy is false and essentially meaningless, and the flow is evident not only in the universal concepts embodied by the yin-yang symbol but within the flowing and ever-changing techniques of the martial arts themselves.

This was more of a mixed martial arts school. We studied Kenpo, ju-jitsu and standard kick-boxing. I had to leave due to a recent move.

Now I am starting over in Tae Kwon Do.

Filipino stick fighting to the rest of the world. Sadly I got this idea to go to graduate school and had to give that up as part of my sacrifice to go back to school. One day I'll go back I swear...

I know from experience that graduate school gives you basically no free time.

I remember still very vividly one day in class we were doing this drill that I think they did on the show. It was a basic flowing drill three hits three blocks flowing back and forth. My teacher decided he wanted to see what I was made of, so he goes full speed. Now, full speed for him, to give you some perspective, is coming from a guy that has won dozens and dozens of trophies, medals and competitions, has several belts in several systems, and quite possibly was the best teacher I ever had, including the graduate school professors. Full speed was a lot. We moved through the gym doing this drill at full speed and I held on for quite a while, until I start to think, panic, something, and I realize what I am doing. I panic and I had to jump back out of the way because swinging at full speed, you can't stop a stick coming at your head. As soon as we stopped he about falls over laughing, saying the look on my face was priceless through the drill. But he also said he wanted to see what I could do, and he was proud of what I did. I hope I can be as good of a person as he is, let alone as good as a kuntawista.

Our Aikido sensei, also top notch, likes to use someone to demonstrate all the pins. So, you're face down on the mat while she goes through all the various pins, as you frantically tap out. Then, just as you think she's finished, she goes,"I'll just do the other arm so you're evenly stretched out." Then she gives an evil cackle.

other exercises.

Been doing it for almost 15 years now. Very relaxing for the mind and body.

The art of the "携帯電話".

Amazing what "911の呼出し" can do - results in "警察" and "特別機動隊"...

Seriously I did Wado-Ryu Karate when I was young and got to junior brown belt.

I dropped out because it was taking time away from rock climbing. I quit climbing a year ago and keep thinking I should take up some kind of martial art. I looked around for someplace that does Bagua or Wing Chun but just haven't made the commitment.

I've also studied Judo, Tae Kwon Do, Tai Chi, and what's known as "having a bigger, older, meaner, hot headed brother" which was one of the most painful yet useful martial arts I've ever studied.

I like the defensive and laid back nature of shuai chao, and have used it in real life situations successfully more than once (including flying over my handlebars once, when I rolled out of it without thinking about it). I don't formally practice at the moment, and would like to again, but I do try to at least maintain self-practice when possible (insert thread-locking joke here).

I still find violence to be the last resort of the idiot, and have learned how to diffuse potential situations well enough to seldom need it, but I think it's a good idea to know how to defend yourself. And making someone look dumb enough so they don't want to fight you any more because they suddenly find themselves face down in an arm bar is pretty amusing - it almost always ends the fight, and the dude's buddies are also unlikely to want to jump in if you can quickly subdue someone with little apparent effort.

and six other Japanese words. Ichi, ni, san, shi, go, roku. :evilgrin:

Actually, I did take Karate training some as a kid, but I wouldn't say I really "know" it. I remember some though.

unranked in Southern Praying Mantis and Jail House Rock.

Shaolin Kempo Karate,

Traditional Kung Fu,

Ishin-Ryu,

and finally, a number of hybrids attempting to incorporate scientific principles (Efficiency of movement, momentum control, Impulse and Pressure maximization, etc.)