I'm having serious thoughts about the afterlife...

What if there's nothing after death? What if there really is no heaven and this is all there is? What if there really is a heaven, but it really is like the freepers say it is? Help me please. I can't get this off my mind.
Duckie

And I cant say I am too pleased with the other products of perfection here on earth either ....

Supposed to be a war in Heaven, you know ... Cant be too nice there then ....

Then again: Im disappointed here, I dont see any reason I wouldn't be disappointed there ....

Perhaps I presume too much ...

life after death you'll be too dead to care about it. I think it's what you do on earth that matters. You have no idea what's after this life- it's kinda like "live every day as if it were your last", but more like "live your life as if there were no afterlife".

I'm more scared about what happens if I'm wrong. What if there really is a God and he's pissed at me for telling all the catholics they are weird for believing in a 2000 year old book? I'm screwed.... Or what if something really ironic is true, like what if those people that killed themselves when the Hale-Bop comet came near are now chillin on a spaceship somewhere. I've got better things to do than think, "what if..."

I mean, that's such a widespread belief in the rest of the world, why does it never even occur to us? If you want a kind of simple discussion, go pick up a copy of almost anything by Richard Bach - 'Jonathon Livingston Seagull', or 'The Blue Feather'. You might wanna note that most freepers have never personally been to heaven - although I'd suggest that if that's what they want, they deserve it & I'll take hell.

It's something that's cool, but I'd like to be a human again. I don't know...maybe a dog or cat with a really cool owner or something. But I'm terrified to die. I'm had some panic attacks over just the thought. It didn't help that my sister died WAY too young. It's just something I'm terrified of.
Duckie

I was like you, petrified of dying (the unknown, going it alone and all that), but what changed my mind was that a few years ago I was in the hospital for almost 2 weeks for an "unidentified infection" - I was really sick. After I got out of the hospital, a good friend who visited me, said "you were in really bad shape, in a fetal position, hardly speaking, and I know you have always been afraid of death, were you?" I said "No, I wasn't because I was SO weak, I couldn't even conjure up a thought of death." So this is what happens....we are so weak at the end, that we cannot have anxiety or fear because of the weakness. All I wanted to do was sleep.

Hope this makes you feel better.

I have never been afraid of death since then.

What would it matter to you? You wouldn't know. You wouldn't be lying there thinking 'hang on, what's going on' you'd be completely without consciousness, nothing at all. What's wrong with that?

...it means what the fuck am I living my life right then? I could go out and kill someone and it wouldn't even fucking matter. It's scary to think that THIS is all there is. It's really terrifying.
Duckie

We think that there has to be some sort of universal justice. Bad is punished and good is rewarded. To think otherwise is just unfathomable to some. So to answer your question, yes you might just be able to kill someone and have no reprimand in the afterlife. But that's what makes life fun right?

:-)

Thank God!:evilgrin:

I could go out and kill someone and it wouldn't even fucking matter.

It still matters now, doesn't it? Maybe the answer to whether or not you're living your life right can only really come from you.

(Said the agnostic. I guess I've gotten used to playing tricks like this on myself. :) )

...are things you create (or are visited upon you by others) right here on Earth.

Simple as that.

cause if this is all we got. and you take it from someone else, what bigger crime is taking EVERYTHING away from somone who wants to keep what they got? were not talking 'everything' as in all my stuff, were talking conciousness, the whole meaning of 'I AM' if this is all there is, taking life becomes a MUCH bigger deal, because if their isnt anything else?

-LK

but if not going to heaven is/was the only thing stopping you from killing people before - I'd be a little worried.

The assumption that if there is no God then human's can maim, steal and kill is a non sequiter.

I do or don't do things based on whether or not I think they are the right thing to do.

Not beleiving in God means that I should live my life "well" even more so than if I did beleive - THIS is all we have or are going to get - make the most of it

I wasn't talking for real. I just wonder why we try so hard to be such great people if there's nothing when we die.
Duckie

We have an innate desire to share our particular view with the world. Its part of our way. Its part of the process that we are.

When we are first born we have to learn that the universe is seperate from us. We do not understand that our arm and that chair are seperate things. We experience everything as one. Eventually we learn to distinguish where we end and where the rest of the universe begins.

The oddity is this is false. We experience our own small part of the universe intensely and subjectively. But that does not mean we are not part of the universe. All we do affects the universe around us. We are the universe looking back at itself in small part.

What we learn and teach is part of the process that is the universe. When we die the things we strove and fought for in life will continue to reverberate in those we touched and loved. The things we changed will continue to take out touch forward. We only lose the subjective experience of this process. But we live on in those we taught.

I have met Christians that actually do believe something akin to that. I have been told point blank that if it was not against god's will they would take a shot gun to some people. I suspect they do not give themself enough credit.

Our perception of morality need not come from a fixed and authoratative god. If that were the case then the prisons would be overflowing with atheists (and yet atheists make up about .2% of the prison population). A religious belief in the origins of morality give religious societies an extra bit of muscle in keeping the society in line. It is a way of making a stronger society from which the religious belief has a better chance of propogating. Its a simple evolutionary advance within the vast array of religious structures. One of the most important tricks the religion must do is create the impression that morality is inseperable from the authority behid the religion. Thus when people see the foundation of the strong society they tie it to the authority figure behind it.

Our diverse society gives this long held position quite a bit of trouble. Our society is comprised of a multitude of morality codes and ethics. And yet despite not having one codefied singular source of morality we all manage to get along. This confounds some of the more strident voices for these groups. They rail against moral relativism. They decry any other source of morality as being tainted. And yet we advance while they languish. Those faithful that are able to let go of this dogmatic aspect of their religion allow society to become part of them. While the Fred Phelps of the world wall themself off and wage battle against all around them.

I can't focus on anything more distant than that

This is all there is. We're all in the same boat too. Period. ULTIMATE period.
This means you have to live each day with meaning. You have to be as true to yeorself as you possibly can. You have to make this life worth living at all costs, because this is all there is.

It was July 4, 1978; I remember because of the fireworks.

I suddenly had this dread feeling that religion was bunk, and there was no God, and once you die, your consciousness is extinguished.

I remember feeling this sense of inescapable terror for a few days, as the realisation sunk in.

The terror has no recurred since; I've gotten used to the idea that death is the end of Self, the end of consciousness. I've dealt with it by making sure the life I live is the life I want, as I'm not going to get a second chance.

the "not having a second chance" part. Make the most of what time we have now. If you influence someone who survives after you- you are not dead.

and it is terrifying. I had it when I was about 12 and lying in bed, I was so horrified that I screamed for my parents but I couldn't put into words my terror, so they just figured I had had a nightmare. As I get older (I'm almost 50) every now and then the terrifying thoughts come back. :scared:

I don't think there's much risk of nothingness after death. Some time, sit down and clear you mind of all thoughts. You probably can't for long! Some thought or other will come up...you'll clear that away...and then something else will do the same.

Where does it all come from? The easy answer is the subconscious mind - the same part that accounts for those great leaps of genius and intuition that we all admire. There's a lot of extra equipment available that doesn't seem to serve any particular survival purpose. People of good will can argue all they wish about whether or not we have some essence that transcends death. As for me, I believe we do. Others believe differently, and that's fine. I think they're in for a pleasant surprise.

As for freeper heaven, I doubt even they would care for such a place - at least, not for long. I suspect the afterlife is more rich, interesting, and complex than any of us can begin to imagine. Their world is sadly limited. That's okay - they have plenty of time to learn.

:scared:

And have pretty much come to the conclusion that whatever it is, it is. I'm just going to thank whatever or whoever I see for the ride. It's been a good one.

Like you, I've been close to death (too many times :) ) and had the same experience. I came to realize that every day we get is a gift and that life itself is a gift and we should cherish it and each other.

I have no idea what I really believe about 'heaven', but I do know I believe there is something beyond this life. Just a deeply held, personal feeling.

As for the fear of dying, I used to be just like you....petrified, stultified at the mere thought of it.
When I was 15 I became extremely ill (digestive tract, etc). Over a period of 5 years I kept getting worse and worse, no matter what they tried, nothing seemed to get a handle on the problem. I was in and out of hospital after hospital, and finally, the last time I was in the hospital the doctors spent most of their time explaining to me that I was probably facing death, and most likely wouldn't be going home from the hospital this time. When you hear something like that, you immediately start reconciling yourself to a lot of issues that seemed so important before you thought you were checking out. During that process, I came to realize, in a very profound way, that we ALL are going to face it. Some sooner, some later. Nothing for it, its just out there waiting for each and every one of us.
I can't really explain why, but once I accepted that fact in the most basic regions of my soul, I suddenly had a great sense of calm about it all.
This sense of calm, by the way, had nothing at all to do with what I had always believed about heaven and hell and all things Biblical.

Obviously, the doctors finally hit upon the right combination of drugs and surgery and I recovered fully, once and for all.
Since then, however, I have never once been frightened of dying.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, in my experience, its almost more the fear of the unknown that paralyzes us, than the actual fear of death. :shrug:

-chef-

The cat sleeping on my bed most likely isn't chewing his claws out over the concept of death. We humans, with the ability to look outward and upward, are blessed/cursed with an awareness of self -- "knowing that we know." We know that we are going to die, and the idea of not existing, or being in total darkness for eternity is terrifying. Our struggle is with the anxiety, not with death itself.

A year ago, I had to help my mom out of this world. She had lived a very long life, had been ill for some time, and her body was beginning to shut down. She was not a religious woman, but she wanted to have the 23rd Psalm read to her, and to have a final visit from all her family and friends. She said her goodbyes, and "let go" that night. I observed the entire process, and how she did it with such class. I must thank her for eradicating my fear of death forever.

Have you ever been under general anesthesia? That's a "preview" of death -- your consciousness is just shut off, and it's not bad! I know that sometimes it seems just outrageous to simply "not be," but that is most likely the scenario. Don't fear it -- none of us makes it out of here alive, anyway.

Hang in there -- :toast:

sung by Ron Elliot. Hell, what do I know, but when I'm dead what am I gonna do to change anything?

What were you doing before you were conceived? What about before you were born? Remember any of it? Some people like to think they do,and maybe they do, who am I to say they can't?.But when I get real honest with myself I admit I don't know what occurred in my existence before my existence.
What will my death be like ? What will happen after life? All I can say is I dunno,I'm not in control of planning my own death nor am I in control of being born where I want.If I had a choice I might choose different parents,a different family..In fact I must admit I control very little of what happens outside of myself in this existence .Also I'm not very much of a position of control inside my body either,I can't decide to stop eating because I'd rather spend my money on other things.I can't decide never to pee again can I ? Humanity does not agonize of this fact of being out of control does it? Why is death different,everyone shits,everyone dies.Death is a function necessary to life just like eating living things to death is.
I can control only how I respond to my existence and the circumstances it throws at me at the time I react..I have no way of predicting my life or anyones.And even then in those weird moments of precognition the vision,and control is not absolute or certain or even accurate.
All I have is a choice now.And my choice opens up a billion more choices and potentials,known and unknown as It closes them too..but I can only pick,one and the one is NOW.

Is there an afterlife? I dunno? Do you know if there is life before birth? Life in a coma? I dunno what life is.But because I cannot define it,test it,sample it, or remember it does not mean it cannot be,even when by all appearances to my eyes it isn't alive.
I have never walked upon the dark side of the moon in my life.This Doesn't mean I never will,doesn't mean I never have.Because I do not know where I came from before I came here and I have no clue what happens to me.. whatever I think am might not be what I am.. after the body goes..does the body die or does it change or does it not I change? I dunno..
The more I get myself worked up in a case of hubris and fear of god or what happens if..and tell myself how much I MUST know ~or else~, about the unknown ...along comes one more discovery /experience that shows me just how unknown of the known I am.And it shows me just how much unknown isn't known because there is no end to our seeking to know until we get to the end and know it all.We won't know if we tell ourselves we know,we only know by finding out for ourselves.If we know it all will we finally be able to really find out that we really do know nothing at all? That seems to be the pattern we run into here when we try to see what is here.

Is there life after death? I dunno..But don't worry we will all find out what happens, and then we will know by experience,when we find out,we know and not a moment before. We are not in control of our own deaths or births or even the circumstances of birth or our own genetic combinations...among our parental parameters.
We do not hold the clock of our own lifespans in our egos hands.This want of control does not give any control to your mind,even though your cells might have a clue the ego and super ego doesn't know and this is the part of self that stresses over abstract issues the most.. your beliefs not withstanding,does a scab you scape from your elbow that is made of you,fret to your mind about it's only life being cut short by your desire to scratch,does a scab worry itself sick over life after death issues as you toss it away mindlessly and kill more of yourself with peroxide? So why do your ego worry? Is it because it can't control or predict the outcome? Neither could the cells of that scab.Is the scab unconscious dumb matter? Are you alive in your own cells?
You can try to kill yourself when your mind feels oppressed ,I have tried plenty of times and it is very difficult fighting the body to give up it's life for the mind's sake before it's the bodies time,even though your psyche and emotions really want to flee this life you can't..you are here even when you don't want to be and you go despite wanting to stay.. You can cling to your life and be afraid of every cough,avoid bad neighborhood or get shook up over every world event,but you will not live a life worth living either.

Being dead to life because you are depressed is no way to live.
Being alive and fearful of death is no way to live.
The scabs our bodies cells 'do not stop forming when you want to die..They don't stop forming even when you tear them off repeatedly by scratching them to death. Are scabs on your skin conscious of impending death by your fingernail? Are you?
Is there an afterlife?

When are babies not born,animals not born ..do they still have a consciousness?
If they are not born with consciousness we say they'd be stillborn.
Stillborns rot like old people do in the grave.
If they never had consciousness they would not be conceived.
If they aren't conceived what are they? The unknown people in our dreams,fantasies or thoughts? Where did cars come from when there were none? A thought.

When we are born,where did our consciousness come from?
What makes consciousness appear to live in bodies?
Can it be anywhere else?
What IS life?
And what IS death?
And do you know what Consciousness is?
Consciousness obviously with anyone who has it finds it can shift states,it trances,dreams,imagines just like bodies sorta do.
What is consciousness for? What is a body Why do we even have these things? What inside us causes us to think of things never seen on Earth by anyone else before? And how do people apparently on the same wavelength of thought as your imagination is make the same thing you thought up,years later and sell it? What force made them choose to make it manifest and not you? What is reality and manifesting?
Why are these imaginary archetypes so similar cutting across,cultures,races,time and space as the same archetypes of tribes long ago affect our own conscious process today? How can this be?
How long has consciousness been conscious of being conscious?

By the time you are 7 years old all your cells in your body that you were born with have died off and been replaced. Everyone is already dead and replaced cell by cell with someone else at age 7. We digest and absorb DNA because we eat life to live.

WE are dying all the time and being born all the time.
Think of this next time you pick a scab and it heals.Cells have divided made and new cells that did not exist before.You are dying already,from the minute of your bodies conception.

The only thing "natural" and healthy that "lives" forever are one celled creatures ..,Unnatural things that live forever are corporations and cancer.And they destroy the very things enabling them to exist.Their hosts..Life frozen in growth forever in the same state is not a good part of this existence that appears to be made of constant change.Change it seems is what that makes life and death and maybe even consciousness possible to perceive itself.

We are these living/dying colonies of billions upon billions,we are legions made of legions,we are personal nations of flesh,living in nations on earth ,we are cities of cells living their lives whether the conscious ego knows about it or not,the cells know when they need to repair the body,our ego does not command our heart to beat or cells with bad DNA to die. WE live healthier now because of the deaths of our cells.This apoptosis or programmed cell death,is an ensurer of our quality of life. Without death we will become cancer and die in misery.Even our real consciousness our sense of self changes itself with every death,every event, every choice made and not made changes us bit by bit unperceptive like cell death or dramatically like a scar..A self is a multiples .Proof is,when you talk to yourself at the grocery store ,whom are you speaking to? Someone else..an interlocutor inside you barely under awareness,an anima or animus..It's maybe this archetype thing...in you..that inhabits everyones psyche at different times that lives through the mental history of all humanity.

We are not what we think we are,nor are we what we are told to be..We are selves inside of selves,inside selves writing soliloquies of selves.A mystery, But...We are.

This might not solve the mystery of life after death,as conventional society views it,and how they view it,do they know? Can they? Do ANY of us know? No one has come back to tell us,that is alive today .The people who allegedly lived to see and afterlife and founded religions lived all conveniently in the ancient past and utilize texts and memes to tell people who they are,and which way to see.

But for me It's reassuring to know that I already died today,because I'm dying everyday,since I was born and I live despite that. I change and go through this state than another,my hair mysteriously gets gray,my body gets old,who determines our aging? Our selfish genes? Or is it something else? I never was in control of any of this process. Life is death is life.Without death we would be cancer and life itself would kill us to live because life is a state of flux,inside of flux . We would stop living if we ceased dying.
We are alive and dead a process of change a soliloquy and consciousness at the same time connected to an existence perceiving a reality that nobody really knows what it is..Buddhists claim it's all an illusion,I myself,I don't know because this is all I know.Every heaven looks like a nicer here Why is that? Every God acts so human,yet he seems cooler than us Why is that?

What are we?
What is life?
Where do we go after we die?
We aren't not even sure of what the isness of IS..yet.
Let alone what isness isn't.

Maybe we are asking all the wrong questions?

The Bard was a pretty smart dude after all.

Something besides death, or the afterlife, is bothering you. it bothers us all, and we have a tough time defining it.

Shrinks, philosphers, or preachers may help, but I think it's a question of worrying about how this life is going and not so much about the next one. If there is a next one.

Since no one really knows, the concept of an afterlife has become a threat, a crutch, or a reward. Death can be welcomed, accepted as a necessity of life, or feared.

No one can erase your anxiety, but perhaps you will come to realize, as many of us have, that if you live your life well, the afterlife will take care of itself, and should be fairly pleasant, whatever it is.

It's not death, or hell, we fear, it is the meaningless death after a meaningless life that we dread.

a You who can think about Death without Fear. The fear of death is needed for day to day survival-it is important to maintain that.
If you can reach the other You-some people reach it through meditation- it can help you live and think without fear of death getting in the way.

It is quite possible that individual consciousness no longer exists after physical death. It is also possible that it does not or that it survives for a period of "time" and then no longer exists, or unfolds into something richer or more complex, or re-creates itself in some way.

I see no evidence for the traditional story of heaven, so I don't concern myself with it any longer.

I think we live in a state of uncertainty. The physical evidence of death seems to indicate that physical death is the end of the being or creature's consciousness. However that does not mean it is true.

The emotional fervor that surrounds the topic of Death and Afterlife seems to indicate a strong desire or need on the part of many humans to believe in a life after death-to the point of forcing others to believe the same thing.

I notice, however, that many of the people who want to force their beliefs are not eager to die and enter the heaven they insist will be there for them.

My conclusion from this is that such people are very weak in their faith and are weaving their religious beliefs like an imaginary cloak to cover up their fear so they can get through life. On the other hand, many of those who seem to want to die violently for their faith seem indoctrinated and delusional.

As for a freeper heaven-would a god who constructed the incredible universe in which we exist build a freeper-rule heaven/hell? I don't think so. I suppose there is a small chance that there is a God in the form of a giant freeper but I think it unlikely. Billions of people lead good, loving, and meaningful lives without freeper-like heaven and hell beliefs.

I think the heaven/hell concepts stem from the times when human beings thought the earth was flat, heaven was in the sky above and hell was underneath; earth was the center of the universe and human beings were the centerpiece creation. Medieval church spires pointed to heaven as they believed it to be.

It is interesting that, although we have known for centuries that heaven is not in the sky above our heads-churches are still being built with spires pointing to "heaven." I think it takes awhile for cultural organized religion to incorporate new information.

The central question about life-why does anything exist at all-has not been answered. Sometimes I think we don't understand because our brains can conceive of things that are not real-purple cows and nothingness.

are coming up with these days is so bizarre and counterintuitive that I'm convinced that whatever happens after death is so beyond our imagining that it's not worth worrying about.

I have a problem with the traditional concept of hell, because I feel it's like the father in Oregon who was accused of beating his 8-year-old daughter to death back in the 1980s. He claimed that he had to do it because she was "bad." As one commentator said, "What could an 8-year-old do to deserve the death penalty?"

That's what the idea of hell feels like, beating an 8-year-old to death, especially the Dantean view, where people are subject to eternal damnation for a single adulterous act. (Actually, a lot of what we think we know about hell is Dante, not the Bible.)

If there's a heaven, maybe it's in an alternate universe. Maybe there is reincarnation in an alternate universe where we get a Groundhog Day-type chance to get more things right. Maybe we are absorbed into the great Mind of the Universe.

But who really knows? If we lapse into nothingness, we won't care, and if we find something beyond, it will be a great adventure.

I'm more afraid of dying painfully than of dying itself.

... to have it wrap up for a person in one lifetime ?

For me, that is enough to accept that there is a God and given that, why not a heaven ?

My thoughts are that what is is and worrying isn't going to change things. I happen to believe that there is something more after we die. What exactly I don't know, but I hope a place where all loved ones can be together again. I have had too many experiences to think otherwise.

Some might say that I am just "dreaming", hoping that the next life is a happy place. I say, "So What!" Nobody knows until they die. So why not live this life thinking that there is more of a journey ahead, and that I will see loved ones again. Why not believe what you want and not worry about being wrong, because it won't matter anyway.

Unless, you think like my husband, who is always coming up with something to make you think.

What if "your" afterlife is just what you think it will be. If you believe in heaven and hell, then you will either go to heaven or hell. If you believe as I do, you will be with family and friends again. If you believe in nothing, then you will have nothing. Wouldn't that be something. You would be the master of your own destiny.

that the experience was very peaceful. I have some fear, too, but I try to remember those stories.

as the body tries to sustain itself.

Most of the symptoms of NDE(Near Death Experiences) are also experienced by pilots undergoing high G manuevors. The descriptions are consistant with brain trama during loss of circulation and other factors common to a body shutting down.

Another factor to keep in mind (no irony intended) is that the nature of how the brain works is severely altered during such events. The portions of the brain that normally translate current experience into short term memory are shorted out. Your brain still is recording things but much of the information is garbled. Therefor when you try to recall what happened it does its best to fill in the blanks. Essentially creating memories. It pulls information from learned cultural expectations.

Another factor to keep in mind is how the brain inserts an image of self in recalled memories. Think back to some memory you have. Say a visit to the beach. Do you see yourself in the imagery? How is that possible. It is because we create this image as a place holder in our mind to keep ourselves relative to everything else. This internal image is refered to as a homunculus.

I believe these people were really dead, and the experiences are often similar. I stick to my belief.

If a brain loses cohesion all manner of chaos can erupt within it. Once resusitated their memory will struggle to pull itself back into semblance. There can be some astounding memories created in this time.

Of course you do not have to believe me. I would hardly expect otheriwise. I cannot top your attachment to your ideas with a few simple words. Thats not how belief works. I can simply suggest that there are other possible explanations and hope that somehow we together can struggle closer to an understanding of what the truth is.

was the afterlife, and you'd have to be dead for that. You're right, we'll have to agree to disagree. Even this argument shows it. There's no proof either way, I agree - but I am a person of faith.

As a Catholic I firmly believe in Heaven. Exactly what it's like, however, I do not know. I think it's like our world, only without the pain, suffering, hatred, and (of course) death.

My Grandma loved butterflies. The summer after she died, a butterfly landed on my mom while she was gardening. She was 53 at the time; that had never happened to her before. We took that as a sign by my Grandma that she in Heaven, and she was okay.

I try to have faith that whether there is something for me after I die or not, I'll hopefully leave a mark on the Earth in a way which makes it better because of my presence. I am, though, a spiritual enough person, that I believe that this isn't the end in regard to our energies. Somewhere, somehow, though it can't be proven, I'd like to think there's something more, at least some higher state of consciousness we're not yet capable of understanding.
I used to get caught up in the idea that being a good person meant, in a sense, martyrdom and I ignored my dreams and needs because of that for a long time. I no longer think this is the case, but I don't see much good coming from living a life that is entirely self-serving either.

It pretty much sums up the concerns you're having for the afterlife. Not that I buy into it at all, but it works for some people.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/

The first premise of the wager is that one can CHOOSE to believe. I feel that whether one is a theist or atheist is an aspect of one's personality that is hard-wired from birth. But, for the sake of argument, let us assume that one CAN choose to believe.

If one chooses to bet on a god for the sake of Pascal's Wager, which god shall it be? If you bet wrong, do you still go to hell, or merely cease to be?

If one performs a cold cost/benefit analysis and chooses to believe because it is the choice that offers the most benefits and least dangers, this still requires that the god in question not mind that you believe in it merely in order to gain entrance to heaven and/or to avoid punishment in hell or oblivion.

But this means that this god isn't actually a just or fair god, since a person's eternal fate is not based on their actions, but merely on their decision to make a pragmatic and selfish choice. That certainly isn't the sort of god I would ever consider worshipping.

Pascal presumes that he has selected the correct god to believe in. He further compounds the matter by assuming this god wants belief. Consider a god that is malevalent and desceptive. By worshiping this god you bring yourself closer to eternal ruin. The multiplicity of potential gods leads one to the logical conclusion that an agnostic position is prefered and simply honestly acknowleging what you happen to believe at the moment.

In the end Pascal's Wager is a rather dishonest attempt to leverage a verbal acknowlegement of god simply for one's own benefit. It does nothing to change what a person believes other than add some coercive emotional weight to the theist argument. The equivalent of saying, believe in god or I will quick you in the shins for eternity.

why I don't buy into the principle, but it seemed to apply to this particular situation

once you have been out of body your views will change

And I learned to recognise it for what it is. Yes its a very powerful experience. But then so is any experience you rarely if ever have. It is a very powerful emotional event. In large part due to the brain reacting to the unusual state it is in.

and that's the present moment. If you worry about what happens after you die, you're ruining the present moment for the sake of pointless conjecture.

Do all you can to make now the best it can be. If it happens to be one of those lousy moments, learn from it, so you won't feel regrets in some future present moment.

Peace... :)

If there are freepers with harps and wings and shit, I wanna go to hell! Hell ain't a bad place to be.

Well it will be the same after you pass away. I do not know whether you see that as a good thing or a bad thing. But consider this. What will you do in a place called heaven?

This is a serious question. Think about what motivates you here in life. Now imagine life with all the stress removed. Imagine life with none of the burdens. What motivates you? Happiness is not just an isolated condition. Our lives are wrapped up in the process of living. Stress and Joy are connected to one another.

There are people that have a hard enough time deciding what to do on a rainy day. What are you going to do with eternity? Particularly an eternity with no objectives. There is only so many times you can sing Kumbaya. In eternity you will have enough time to do everything an infinite number of times. How many iterations before you go insane?

The best thing to do is to make of this life what you can. Live in the now. Worrying about life in the future just means you are not living now. There is no purpose to life other than what you make of it. I suggest you make something wonderful of it. And who knows. With the advances in medicine and biology we are making, maybe death by age is not a necissity in the near future(this is a real possibility).

and i really dont know what to think, im not sure if i believe in heaven/hell myself. the way i see it is. if there isnt anything after life, there is nothing to fear, no eternal burning in the lake of fire, none of that, also, no real reward to being a good person except for the reward it is in of itself, which for me, being a good person is enough to make me do it anyway.

but thats my take on it if there isnt anything beyond death. the whole 'blinking out of existance never to be heard from again' thing never really bothered me, there is some days i wish it would happen sooner, infact.

anyway, if there is life beyond death? well at that point i guess i should be thankfull that my soul will have a conciousness, no matter where it ends up residing.

for along time i have held that this life is all we got, cause its all im sure we got, and thats all thats kept me going through the years, if i knew for a fact that there was something beyond this, it would have been easier to give up. because, just think, if this life is all we have and then there is just nothing after we die, what greater crime could there be to end it early on purpose?

one thing i would LIKE is to have another go at it, reincarnation would be cool, ive made so many mistakes in this life that im itching for another chance, thiers just things i should have done, things i shouldnt have done, perspectives id like to view the world through, ect.

or maybe just a chance to re-live this life and fix all the fuck ups ive made, that would be nice too. but hey, its just a personal theory.


anyway, thats my messed up $.02 if it makes any sense to anyone.

-LK

Check out the possibility of reincarnation. A good place to start is the Reincarnation Forum at http://www.reincarnationforum.com .

Tucker

As long as you don't buy into the idea that your next life is based on something you did in a previous life; at least in a "karmic" sense.

For example, I could have, say, been a mass-murderer in a past life and nothing bad happens to me this life.

All the evidence I've seen rebuts the concept of "karma" in the sense we understand it. I have known people who by traditional karmic ideas ought to have been reborn as slugs; nothing terrible happened to them, other than having spent time in Florida.

From the group I know about, the only sort of "karma" that seems to exist is that people with strong emotional ties tend to connect in many lives.

I tend to think that rather than a punitive "karma," what happens to Really Bad People is they get a chance to put things right and nurture the people they've hurt.

Tucker

wouldn't it be satisfying if there were a way we could know about that? "Look, there crawls Ashcroft - and, oops, looks like Cheney's going to eat him! Eeewwwww."

As with any surviving religion the idea of karma is part of our species social development which recognises certain aspects of our biology and social dynamics. We learn by example from each other. Our brains record events we experience and use these as the basis of determining how we see the world.

Succesful religions rely upon strong societies to transmit them. Thus they pick up ideas and concepts which strengthen their host society. Karma is just such a concept.

One of the factors that truly makes a society strong is getting its members to cooperate with each other. While there is a natural tendency for this reinforcement by means of social guidance increases the effects of it. Thus the concept of Karma gives a reinforcement to individuals to behave positively towards one another. The reward of positive feedback is actually answered in a long term fashion by creating a positive society that is supportive of more than one without such a concept.

But do they have a pepper bar?

:shrug:

What if there really is a heaven, but it really is like the freepers say it is?

Then Hell must be a pretty cool place!

;-)

and I don't believe that they are endorphin releases. I have been extremely comforted by what I've learned. Raymond Moody is a Dr. who's does a tremendous amount of research on this subject and has written several books. Also, Elizabeth Kuebler Ross has done a lot of research in this area. I feel strongly that there is life after death, that as soon as we pass over we are at a level of peace that's unimaginable, and that we go to a place (some people call it the place of preparation) to rest and plan for our next incarnation. I think that we are on this planet to evolve and learn lessons (unconditional love, forgiveness, etc.) until we eventually reach Nirvana. I don't know what happens to people like Hitler. I do believe that there are karmic ramifications. You may find comfort in some of these books as I have.

While I do not wish to remove your sense of comfort I would like to say some things about endorphins and NDEs. The brain is a bit more complex than just one chemical reaction. The manner in which we store memories and even experience now is little understood by most.

As we experience the world around us our mind collects all the pertinent data and transfers it to our mind. There is actually a delay between what happens and when we consciously percieve it. This is because we are not experiencing the world around us live. It passes through filters our brain creates in order to be able to focus on pertinent actions. Thus we are able to focus on one conversation in a noisy room. We do not see everything in a room when we first enter it, our minds eye focusing on the most relevant factors and quickly building a more complete picture.

Thus when going through a tramatic experience the brain may not function properly. It is theorised that the experiences during this period are partially stored in short term areas. When consciousness is regained the brain tries to recreate what it experienced and fills in what it cannot account for.

Our memory has functions which place a physical representation of ourselves (a homunculus) in our recollections. Thus if you think back to an experience you will often be able to visiualize yourself in the setting. This is of not how you saw the actual event. This mechanism comes into play during these tramatic experiences and thus your memory of the event is complete with an external view of your self despite not actually having seen it.

The upshot of all this is that the brain when in a state that can cause enough trama can recreate all the symptoms of a NDE. Being able to see yourself. Muddling memories with now. Injecting cultural expectation. Even the tunnel of light corresponds to how our eyes shut down. The cones short out first while the rods remain active. Thus you will percieve a tunnel of light and a shift into black and white high contrast images. This will be particularly strong if you happen to looking up at the surgeons and into the surgery lighting which is typically high UV and bright.

to the thread and aren't trying to dismiss the views of others. I respect that. I'm not really religious, but I am spiritual. You don't have to be a fundamentalist to have strong views on subjects like the afterlife. :-)

I see no reason to think any form of consciousness survives death. It all seems to be a product of the physical brain to me.

If we are right then no one "finds out" when they die. In fact its the exact opposite.

But at the same time...it brought up more questions...and has motivated me to go back to bed. LOL Thanks for answering. That's why I love DU and everyone in the Lounge. You all have such different views on everything. I know when I ask you something, I'm going to get every side of the argument. Thanks.
Duckie

42

by Jane Roberts if you can find a copy. Actually, any of her books.

the themes are both reincarnation and a what-if scenario. The what-if is "what if bubonic plague had a very high mortality rate in those of caucasian ancestry and negligible mortality in others" and runs that through a thousand or two years of history.

All I know is that I will find out one day the answers to these questions but until then I am going to have a good time and watch my kids grow up and If I am lucky I will get to see my Grandchildren grow up. Some years back I spent a considerable amount of time focusing on this issue just to find out that I am spending too much of my time worrying about the end when I need to focus more on the middle.

If there is nothing after you die you will not find out anything. You won't be.

That is a true statement. However this subject puts me in a morose state of mind.

See my crazy post below. The Universe is a closed system. For us stuck here, this is all there is, but there may be other conceivable "playing outs" where there's a conciousness closely matching your state just before death (or at any other given moment).

You don't suddenly find yourself in another universe because the most likely you is the predictable you a quantum-time afterwards. If you're dead, however, that will change.

OK, this is wild speculation, I already admitted it. What else do you want, that I commit myself to the nuthouse? :crazy:

We are the result of a process. An organized structure. We tread litley in the face of entropy which seeks to topple us at any moment. A human body frozen is not alive, has no mind, and has no thoughts. It is the process that we arise from.

I understand the moribund feelings some have about the fact that this process can be ended or broken. But instead one must realize what a truly rare and wonderous thing it is to have this at all. We are the universe looking back at itself in wonder. Marvel. Rejoice. Drink deep in this world and appreciate it for the joys we can find. And then ask yourself how long it would take of eternity before it became a nightmare of boredom. Our brevity creates the beauty about us. Gives it meaning to us. Gives our actions impact on those around us. Gives us reason. The dance of life is the thing, enjoy it for itself.

The physical Universe is nothing more than the "playing out" of a well-defined set of rules (whether we are able to figure out such rules accurately is irrelevant), just like a chess game, a geometric progression or the quick-sort algorithm. All possible "playing-outs" of consistent rules do exist, whether somebody physically enacted them or not.

That includes one where people (or whatever) build a machine with a consciousness that happens to match your state of consciousness just before you died. False memories, if you will. Either that, or lightning falls on somebody, who survives but has his brain all messed up. He now believes he's called Joe Something, and Quebec never separated from Canada, and the Cubs won the World Series in 2003. Weird! Where did he get those ideas from?

Note that there is no kind of "transfer" or "travel" involved, just plain statistics playing out.

In short: I speculate it won't be good or evil, it will be... screwy. Probably in a way I completely failed to imagine.

Am I weird? Or did I watch "The Matrix" one too many times?

We must maintain an open mind to the nature of the universe. But until such time as evidence suggesting we are brains in a vat presents itself we can proceed on the assumption that we are in fact here.

What if you got there and it was just like they told you, and everyone had wings on and pearly gates? Wouldn't you feel stupid?

OH NOOOOOOOOOOO! You mean this is what.......? AHHHHHHHHHHHHH! In college they said this was all Bullshit.

Well I'll guess I'll just go over here and..... What's this? You've been keeping records on me? Well I wasn't so bad. How many times did I use the lords name in vain? EWWWWWWWWWWWW. A million six. Jesus Chr.........

blast much of the supposed expected concept of heaven. If all these things are so bloody wonderful why are there not more harp playing, hymn singing people running around in robes around? Why do people not try to live as if they were in heaven already?

is that death holds no terror for me, as I've spent a good portion of my life longing for its surcease. I can't even relate to fearing death. Fearing pain, fearing suffering, yes, of course. But not fear of ceasing to be - my first clear memory of an emotional state was of wishing not to be.

There is no such thing as matter.

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Music is a structure series of events. Destroy the order and it becomes just noise. The instruments and sheets of music still exist. But without the order of the process it ceases to be music.

The human mind is just like that. As long as it functions we exist. A symphony of the brain. Smash the brain and all the matter and energy are still there. But the order and process that gave rise to our mind have been forever destroyed.

It is a precious thing. It is something to guard and cherish. But do not become so overwhelmed with the prospect of losing it that you never allow yourself to hear its music.